Possibly apocraphal story about Enola Gay display

[[email protected]]

I can't vouch for the authenticity of this story. I was talking with
an acquaintence I don't see often and he asked me: "You're a pilot
aren't you?" I told him I was, that I'd gotten my PPL last August.

He then launched into this story he'd heard from a relative who worked
at the Udvar Hazy Center down in Washington.

He told me that the director, an ex general, was squiring a group of
Japanese journalists around the center (date of this incident not
mentioned). When they passed the Enola Gay, some of the journalists
spoke up and said that they were offended by the display, saying that
the bomber had dropped the atomic bomb on Japan.

The ex general asked them what they thought about Pearl Harbor. The
Japanese, all journalists, were bewildered. "What about Pearl
Harbor?" They asked.

The history being taught in Japan, at least at the time these
gentlemen were learning it, kind of skipped over Japan's involvement
in how the war got started, but sure focused on how it ended. For
many Japanese, apparently, their understanding of WWII is that they
somehow got to fighting with the US, then we dropped two atomic bombs
on them. China isn't mentioned, Korea isn't mentioned and the fact
that they attacked Pearl Harbor isn't mentioned.

Amazing, if true, although it isn't the first time I've heard of the
Japanese style of blindered teaching of this period of their history.

Corky Scott

[Bill Denton]

The problem is, that's the same sort of revisionism being taught to American
school children.

But that means the future should be interesting: If our biased teaching and
reporting becomes revisionist history who knows how it will come out!



> wrote in message
...
> I can't vouch for the authenticity of this story. I was talking with
> an acquaintence I don't see often and he asked me: "You're a pilot
> aren't you?" I told him I was, that I'd gotten my PPL last August.
>
> He then launched into this story he'd heard from a relative who worked
> at the Udvar Hazy Center down in Washington.
>
> He told me that the director, an ex general, was squiring a group of
> Japanese journalists around the center (date of this incident not
> mentioned). When they passed the Enola Gay, some of the journalists
> spoke up and said that they were offended by the display, saying that
> the bomber had dropped the atomic bomb on Japan.
>
> The ex general asked them what they thought about Pearl Harbor. The
> Japanese, all journalists, were bewildered. "What about Pearl
> Harbor?" They asked.
>
> The history being taught in Japan, at least at the time these
> gentlemen were learning it, kind of skipped over Japan's involvement
> in how the war got started, but sure focused on how it ended. For
> many Japanese, apparently, their understanding of WWII is that they
> somehow got to fighting with the US, then we dropped two atomic bombs
> on them. China isn't mentioned, Korea isn't mentioned and the fact
> that they attacked Pearl Harbor isn't mentioned.
>
> Amazing, if true, although it isn't the first time I've heard of the
> Japanese style of blindered teaching of this period of their history.
>
> Corky Scott

[leslie]

Bill Denton ) wrote:
: The problem is, that's the same sort of revisionism being taught to
: American school children.
:

And has been for some time.

I graduated from high school (Tulsa, Oklahoma) in 1963. None of my history
courses covered any of these topics in school:

o Internment of Americans of Japanese ancestry during WW II
o Tulsa's 1921 race riot [1]
o Cherokees and other tribes owned black slaves [2]
o Near-treasonous behavior of corporations who violated embargoes
on sales of goods and technology to Japan shortly before WW II [3]


--Jerry Leslie
Note: is invalid for email

[1] http://www.forgottenhistory.org/exhibits/tulsa.html
Tulsa Race Riot (1921)

[2] http://www.coax.net/people/lwf/slave_rv.htm
CHEROKEE SLAVE REVOLT OF 1842

[3] http://www.wvculture.org/history/journal_wvh/wvh55-6.html
Senator Harley M. Kilgore and Japan's World War II Business Practices

[Paul Tomblin]

In a previous article, "Bill Denton" > said:
>The problem is, that's the same sort of revisionism being taught to American
>school children.

I'm still bewildered at how many USian adults don't know that the US
tried to invade Canada during the Revolutionary War, and lost, and tried
to invade Canada again during the the War of 1812 and lost, or that
during the Wo1812, British and Canadian troops actually burned the White
House, and that's why it's white - to hide the smoke stains on the marble.

--
Paul Tomblin > http://xcski.com/blogs/pt/
Always remember that you are unique. Just like everyone else.

[Jay Honeck]

> Amazing, if true, although it isn't the first time I've heard of the
> Japanese style of blindered teaching of this period of their history.

I don't necessarily blame the Japanese for glossing over their own sordid
history. They have to shave every morning, too.

My only worry is that *their* warped perception somehow becomes *our* view,
rather than the other way around. If we ever allow this to happen, and
we -- for instance -- "tone down" the Enola Gay display, we dishonor our
veterans and lose the moral high ground.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[David Megginson]

Paul Tomblin wrote:

> I'm still bewildered at how many USian adults don't know that the US
> tried to invade Canada during the Revolutionary War, and lost, and tried
> to invade Canada again during the the War of 1812 and lost, or that
> during the Wo1812, British and Canadian troops actually burned the White
> House, and that's why it's white - to hide the smoke stains on the marble.

And Canadian kids don't learn about the Battle of New Orleans at the end of
the War of 1812 and other campaigns late in the war when smaller American
forces managed to humiliate large British forces U.S. soil, just as tiny
British and native forces had humiliated the huge American armies trying to
invade Canada at the start of the war.

Few countries do a good job teaching their own history, or even try, for
that matter--the one exception is probably Germany, which was forced (by the
occupying forces) to go through a painful soul-searching after WWII.

Now back to airplanes.


All the best,


David

[Duck Dog]

On Fri, 28 May 2004 20:13:08 GMT, "Jay Honeck"
> wrote:

>> Amazing, if true, although it isn't the first time I've heard of the
>> Japanese style of blindered teaching of this period of their history.
>
>I don't necessarily blame the Japanese for glossing over their own sordid
>history. They have to shave every morning, too.
>
>My only worry is that *their* warped perception somehow becomes *our* view,
>rather than the other way around. If we ever allow this to happen, and
>we -- for instance -- "tone down" the Enola Gay display, we dishonor our
>veterans and lose the moral high ground.

There's not really much to tone down. I was there 2 weeks ago, and
all they displayed was the plane. It felt more like they were
displaying a B-29 than that particular B-29. BTW, I can see why it
was considered such a technological feat to design and build this
thing in the 1940's.

[Paul Tomblin]

In a previous article, David Megginson > said:
>Paul Tomblin wrote:
>> I'm still bewildered at how many USian adults don't know that the US
>> tried to invade Canada during the Revolutionary War, and lost, and tried
>> to invade Canada again during the the War of 1812 and lost, or that
>And Canadian kids don't learn about the Battle of New Orleans at the end of
>the War of 1812 and other campaigns late in the war when smaller American

Yeah, we learn about the Battle of New Orleans. We learn that the US
finally managed to win a battle AFTER THE WAR HAD ENDED! :-)

--
Paul Tomblin > http://xcski.com/blogs/pt/
Sheridan: "Well, as answers go, short, to the point, utterly useless and
totally consistent, what I've come to expect from a Vorlon."
Kosh: "Good."

[Dan Thomas]

wrote in message >...

>
> The history being taught in Japan, at least at the time these
> gentlemen were learning it, kind of skipped over Japan's involvement
> in how the war got started, but sure focused on how it ended. For
> many Japanese, apparently, their understanding of WWII is that they
> somehow got to fighting with the US, then we dropped two atomic bombs
> on them. China isn't mentioned, Korea isn't mentioned and the fact
> that they attacked Pearl Harbor isn't mentioned.
>
> Amazing, if true, although it isn't the first time I've heard of the
> Japanese style of blindered teaching of this period of their history.
>
> Corky Scott

All of us do that, to some degree, but perhaps not quite that
blatantly. A nation wants to forget its mistakes, so we downplay them
in the history texts, or take them out altogether. Conversely, we
emphasize our successes, sometimes taking credit not rightfully ours.
It's not fair to our kids, and they won't learn from their ancestor's
mistakes. Here in Canada there's often debate about what belongs in a
text (or a documentary) and what should be left out.

Dan

Dan

[Cub Driver]

>He told me that the director, an ex general, was squiring a group of
>Japanese journalists around the center (date of this incident not
>mentioned). When they passed the Enola Gay, some of the journalists
>spoke up and said that they were offended by the display, saying that
>the bomber had dropped the atomic bomb on Japan.
>
>The ex general asked them what they thought about Pearl Harbor. The
>Japanese, all journalists, were bewildered. "What about Pearl
>Harbor?" They asked.

It's just barely possible that something like this did happen. The
NASM director is actually an admiral. There were certainly a lot of
Japanese visiting Udvar-Hazy when I was there in January. They
clustered around the Ohta suicide flying bomb and other relicts of the
JAAF and JNAF, and of course on the walkway over Enola Gay. (You cna't
get to it on the ground level, and there's a barrier to discourage
folks from throwing things from the walkway.)

I'm sure however that every Japanese journalist knows about the Pearl
Harbor attack. If something like this conversation took place, it
almost certainly meant: "What has our conventional and justifiable
attack on a military target have to do with your incincerating one of
our larger cities?"

Anyhow, it's not just the Japanese. The sour joke about American high
schools is that the students learn two facts about World War Two in
the Pacific: 1) that the Americans dropped an atomic bomb on
Hiroshima, and 2) so the Japanese attacked Pearl Harbor.

My visit to Udvar Hazy is posted at www.warbirdforum.com/udvarhaz.htm

(Enola Gay is visible just beneath the Super Cub :)


all the best -- Dan Ford
email: (put Cubdriver in subject line)

The Warbird's Forum www.warbirdforum.com
The Piper Cub Forum www.pipercubforum.com

[Cub Driver]

>actually burned the White
>House, and that's why it's white - to hide the smoke stains on the marble.

Wouldn't the stains be hidden better if it were black, or perhaps
gray?

all the best -- Dan Ford
email: (put Cubdriver in subject line)

The Warbird's Forum www.warbirdforum.com
The Piper Cub Forum www.pipercubforum.com

[Cub Driver]

On Fri, 28 May 2004 20:35:43 GMT, Duck Dog > wrote:

>It felt more like they were
>displaying a B-29 than that particular B-29.

As a matter of fact, that's exactly the explanation that the NASM
director gave when people criticized him for not detailing the damage
that Little Boy did to Hiroshima.

In fairness to NASM, that's pretty much what they do with all their
aircraft. And it's probably more true at Udvar-Hazy than at the big
museum on the Mall. That's what I appreciated most about the new
annex: there's no Walt Disney "interpretation". If the kids aren't
happy looking at airplanes, they can go to the Imax.

all the best -- Dan Ford
email: (put Cubdriver in subject line)

The Warbird's Forum www.warbirdforum.com
The Piper Cub Forum www.pipercubforum.com

[G.R. Patterson III]

wrote:
>
> Amazing, if true, although it isn't the first time I've heard of the
> Japanese style of blindered teaching of this period of their history.

They have a Shinto shrine in Tokyo dedicated to the perpetrator of the rape of
Nanking. It's roughly the equivalent of having a cathedral in Berlin dedicated to the
memory of Himler.

George Patterson
None of us is as dumb as all of us.

[G Farris]

I agree that Germany has done an excellent job of what must be a very painful
exercise - ploughing through modern history to try to pull the lessons out of
what would be so much easier to simply try to forget!

Something has amazed me in traveling in Germany - Turn on your hotel TV at
night, and you're very likely to fall upon an episode of Hogan's Heros! The
series seems to be popular there. I'm not sure what that really tells us, but
it could be that they have come to terms with their own past to such an extent
that they can share the ridicule their former adversaries made of them.

Germany is an example to the rest of us in how they have dealt with an
extremely painful (and recent) past.

G Faris

[Paul Tomblin]

In a previous article, (G Farris) said:
>Something has amazed me in traveling in Germany - Turn on your hotel TV at
>night, and you're very likely to fall upon an episode of Hogan's Heros! The

Did you know that the actors who played Klink, Shultz, and Lebeau all
suffered at the hands of the Nazis?

Klemper is a Jew who fled Germany in 1930s, then served in the US Army
1942-45. Banner and Clary were both in German concentration camps but
survived.

--
Paul Tomblin > http://xcski.com/blogs/pt/
If you refer to a woman as any form of waterborne African mammal then a quick
death is absolutely the *best* thing that could happen to you next.
-- Adi

[Orval Fairbairn]

In article >,
(Paul Tomblin) wrote:

> In a previous article, "Bill Denton" > said:
> >The problem is, that's the same sort of revisionism being taught to American
> >school children.
>
> I'm still bewildered at how many USian adults don't know that the US
> tried to invade Canada during the Revolutionary War, and lost, and tried
> to invade Canada again during the the War of 1812 and lost, or that
> during the Wo1812, British and Canadian troops actually burned the White
> House, and that's why it's white - to hide the smoke stains on the marble.

Slight mistake here -- the White House is limestone, not marble.

[Jay Honeck]

> In fairness to NASM, that's pretty much what they do with all their
> aircraft. And it's probably more true at Udvar-Hazy than at the big
> museum on the Mall. That's what I appreciated most about the new
> annex: there's no Walt Disney "interpretation". If the kids aren't
> happy looking at airplanes, they can go to the Imax.

Man, Udvar-Hazy is sounding better all the time.

The "Disney-treatment" of aircraft "artifacts" is what turned me off at the
big museum on the Mall, and made me long for the Air Force Museum in Dayton.
It almost seemed like the aircraft were an after-thought.

Just the planes, ma'am, just the planes -- that's all I want. And it
sounds like Udvar-Hazy delivers.

Next year, for sure!
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Mutts]

On Fri, 28 May 2004 14:13:57 -0500, "Bill Denton"
> wrote:

>The problem is, that's the same sort of revisionism being taught to American
>school children.
>
>But that means the future should be interesting: If our biased teaching and
>reporting becomes revisionist history who knows how it will come out!


My father worked at North Island NAS Coronado.
He worked on Hellcats to Helicopters and patted
the first F-14 on the base the day he retired.
Baa Baa Black Sheep was on TV back then.
I loved it and Lowell Thomas news reels on PBS.
My Father took me to airshows, and I saw and knew
where my freedom came from at a young age.
I built models of the planes constantly.
My father told me all about Jimmy Dolittle and
the Dambusters, wing warping by the Wrights, etc.
He passed on not very many years after retiring.
He always told me I could learn to fly someday if
I wanted. Funny he only flew once in his life!


I dont remember being taught much about
these things in public school at all. I know I lean heavy
on aviation history but damn its so important and
the public school system then didnt teach much. I expect
today is no different. I wish every kid
could be taken out on a field trip and see, touch
and hear a B-25 or Corsair or any war bird and
KNOW that is part of their freedom right there
cast in aluminum. Instead god knows what
their teaching them instead. I dont have kids
but I have to live with everybody elses and how they
will vote someday. I sure hope they learn this stuff
somewhere.

[Cub Driver]

>They have a Shinto shrine in Tokyo dedicated to the perpetrator of the rape of
>Nanking.

I've never heard about this, and I've paid a lot of attention to
Nanjing and Japanese memory. Most likely you're thinking of Yasukuni
Jinja http://www.warbirdforum.com/yasukuni.htm which is neither in
Tokyo nor dedicated to the Nanjing perps.

If there's such a shrine as you describe, I'd appreciate a pointer to
it.

Yasukuni Jinja does indeed enshrine convicted war criminals from WWII.
This is the English translation of the intepretation available at the
shrine:

"Moreover, there were those who gave up their lives after the end of
the Great East Asian War, taking upon themselves the responsibility
for the war. There were also 1,068 "Martyrs of Showa" who were cruelly
and unjustly tried as war criminals by a sham-like tribunal of the
Allied forces (United States, England, the Netherlands, China and
others). These martyrs are also the Kami of Yasukuni Jinja."




all the best -- Dan Ford
email: (put Cubdriver in subject line)

The Warbird's Forum www.warbirdforum.com
The Piper Cub Forum www.pipercubforum.com

[Ash Wyllie]

Paul Tomblin opined

>In a previous article, "Bill Denton" > said:
>>The problem is, that's the same sort of revisionism being taught to American
>>school children.

>I'm still bewildered at how many USian adults don't know that the US
>tried to invade Canada during the Revolutionary War, and lost, and tried
>to invade Canada again during the the War of 1812 and lost, or that
>during the Wo1812, British and Canadian troops actually burned the White
>House, and that's why it's white - to hide the smoke stains on the marble.

Could you guys come back and finish the job? And get the Capital building this
time too.


-ash
Cthulhu for President!
Why vote for a lesser evil?

[Steven P. McNicoll]

>
> >I'm still bewildered at how many USian adults don't know that the US
> >tried to invade Canada during the Revolutionary War, and lost, and tried
> >to invade Canada again during the the War of 1812 and lost,
>

What is the significance of that? Canada was not an independent nation at
those times, it was part of the British empire and the US was at war with
Britain.

[David Megginson]

Steven P. McNicoll wrote:

> What is the significance of that? Canada was not an independent nation at
> those times, it was part of the British empire and the US was at war with
> Britain.

Right and wrong: the war was against Britain, not Canada, but Britain and
the U.S. were *not* in a continual state of war from 1776 to 1815. The
Paris Peace Treaty ended the American Revolution in 1783, and Congress
declared war against Britain again 29 years later to start the War of 1812
(I think that's where the terms "hawks" and "doves" originated, describing
the pro- and anti-war factions in Congress leading up to the declaration).
The two wars get quite muddled in U.S. pop history, but they were futher
apart than World War I and World War II: the young lieutenants on both sides
in the American Revolution were the old, grey-haired generals of the War of
1812.

The Treaty of Ghent ended the second war in 1815, so as far as I remember,
there have been only two relatively short periods in history that Britain
and the U.S. were actually at war:

1776-1783
1812-1815

(Apologies if I missed something in-between -- this is all from memory.)

We suffer from just as much propaganda about the War of 1812 here in Canada
as you do in the U.S. I wouldn't suggest turning to the schoolbooks of
either Canada or the U.S. for an honest evaluation.


All the best,


David

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"David Megginson" > wrote in message
.rogers.com...
>
> Right and wrong: the war was against Britain, not Canada,
>

Canada was British at that time.

[Tom Sixkiller]

"Paul Tomblin" > wrote in message
...
> In a previous article, David Megginson > said:
> >Paul Tomblin wrote:
> >> I'm still bewildered at how many USian adults don't know that the US
> >> tried to invade Canada during the Revolutionary War, and lost, and
tried
> >> to invade Canada again during the the War of 1812 and lost, or that
> >And Canadian kids don't learn about the Battle of New Orleans at the end
of
> >the War of 1812 and other campaigns late in the war when smaller American
>
> Yeah, we learn about the Battle of New Orleans. We learn that the US
> finally managed to win a battle AFTER THE WAR HAD ENDED! :-)
>
Or in other words; Leave it to the British to lose the most major battle of
the war after the war ended. :~)

[Tom Sixkiller]

"Orval Fairbairn" > wrote in message
...
>
> Slight mistake here -- the White House is limestone, not marble.

Limestone? Then why isn't it green?

[Orval Fairbairn]

In article >, "Ash Wyllie" >
wrote:

> Paul Tomblin opined
>
> >In a previous article, "Bill Denton" > said:
> >>The problem is, that's the same sort of revisionism being taught to American
> >>school children.
>
> >I'm still bewildered at how many USian adults don't know that the US
> >tried to invade Canada during the Revolutionary War, and lost, and tried
> >to invade Canada again during the the War of 1812 and lost, or that
> >during the Wo1812, British and Canadian troops actually burned the White
> >House, and that's why it's white - to hide the smoke stains on the marble.
>
> Could you guys come back and finish the job? And get the Capital building this
> time too.
>

That's what the hijackers on UA 93 were trying to do!

[Tom Sixkiller]

"Steven P. McNicoll" > wrote in message
hlink.net...
>
> >
> > >I'm still bewildered at how many USian adults don't know that the US
> > >tried to invade Canada during the Revolutionary War, and lost, and
tried
> > >to invade Canada again during the the War of 1812 and lost,
> >
>
> What is the significance of that? Canada was not an independent nation at
> those times,

Is it even completely independant today? I notice stuff I have from Canada
(maps, etc) have some gibbersih about "Her Majesty the Queen"...

> it was part of the British empire and the US was at war with
> Britain.
>
Quite. That's called "attacking the enemies rear".

[Tom Sixkiller]

"David Megginson" > wrote in message
.rogers.com...
> Steven P. McNicoll wrote:
>
> > What is the significance of that? Canada was not an independent nation
at
> > those times, it was part of the British empire and the US was at war
with
> > Britain.
>
> Right and wrong: the war was against Britain, not Canada,

And what was the status of Canada, regarding Britain, in 1774-1781 and
1812-1815?

[Tom Sixkiller]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
news:o3Ntc.6254$4A6.731@attbi_s52...
> > Amazing, if true, although it isn't the first time I've heard of the
> > Japanese style of blindered teaching of this period of their history.
>
> I don't necessarily blame the Japanese for glossing over their own sordid
> history. They have to shave every morning, too.

I think the psychologists call that "evasion".

>
> My only worry is that *their* warped perception somehow becomes *our*
view,
> rather than the other way around. If we ever allow this to happen, and
> we -- for instance -- "tone down" the Enola Gay display, we dishonor our
> veterans and lose the moral high ground.

It's worse to evade what you did well and proper than to try to forget.put
past you, what you did wrong. I'd imagine a rather bad psychosis could
develop, but imagine that psychosis on a national scale.

[Tom Sixkiller]

"G Farris" > wrote in message
...
> I agree that Germany has done an excellent job of what must be a very
painful
> exercise - ploughing through modern history to try to pull the lessons out
of
> what would be so much easier to simply try to forget!
>
> Something has amazed me in traveling in Germany - Turn on your hotel TV
at
> night, and you're very likely to fall upon an episode of Hogan's Heros!
The
> series seems to be popular there. I'm not sure what that really tells us,
but
> it could be that they have come to terms with their own past to such an
extent
> that they can share the ridicule their former adversaries made of them.
>
> Germany is an example to the rest of us in how they have dealt with an
> extremely painful (and recent) past.

It's been thirty years since I was there; do they show "Sophie's Choice" or
"Schindler's List"?

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Paul Tomblin" > wrote in message
...
>
> I'm still bewildered at how many USian adults don't know that the US
> tried to invade Canada during the Revolutionary War, and lost, and tried
> to invade Canada again during the the War of 1812 and lost, or that
> during the Wo1812, British and Canadian troops actually burned the White
> House, and that's why it's white - to hide the smoke stains on the marble.
>

The color of the White House has nothing to do with the burning of the
structure by the British in 1814. The building was first made white with
lime-based whitewash in 1798, when its walls were finished, simply as a
means of protecting the porous stone from freezing.

[Tom Sixkiller]

"Cub Driver" > wrote in message
...
> I'm sure however that every Japanese journalist knows about the Pearl
> Harbor attack.

You'd be amazed at how naive Japanese are about history prior to 1945.
Actually, naive is probably the wrong word -- "distorted" is probably more
appropriate.

Another point that someone left out was not only the Rape of China, but
ofthe Phillipines as well.

> If something like this conversation took place, it
> almost certainly meant: "What has our conventional and justifiable
> attack on a military target have to do with your incincerating one of
> our larger cities?"

Quite...ten years ago, at least, their teaching of their history was not
only short, but the same caliber of propaganda they got from the war
ministers in the 1930's and 40's.

[David Megginson]

Steven P. McNicoll wrote:

>>Right and wrong: the war was against Britain, not Canada,
>
> Canada was British at that time.

Exactly -- that's the part where I said you were right.


All the best,


David

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Tom Sixkiller" > wrote in message
...
>
> Is it even completely independant today? I notice stuff I have from Canada
> (maps, etc) have some gibbersih about "Her Majesty the Queen"...
>

Canada achieved complete independence from the British Parliament in 1931,
after the passage of The Statute of Westminster. The British monarch
remains the chief of state but has very little authority.

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"David Megginson" > wrote in message
ble.rogers.com...
>
> Exactly -- that's the part where I said you were right.
>

That would leave no part to be wrong.

[David Megginson]

Tom Sixkiller wrote:

>>Right and wrong: the war was against Britain, not Canada,
>
> And what was the status of Canada, regarding Britain, in 1774-1781 and
> 1812-1815?

It was a British colony (that's the part Steve got right), but they were not
already at war in 1812 (that's the part he got wrong). Congress declared
war so that they could invade the Canadian colonies; they didn't invade the
Canadian colonies because they were at war.


All the best,


David

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Cub Driver" > wrote in message
...
>
> I'm sure however that every Japanese journalist knows about the Pearl
> Harbor attack.
>

What makes you so sure?


>
> If something like this conversation took place, it
> almost certainly meant: "What has our conventional and justifiable
> attack on a military target have to do with your incincerating one of
> our larger cities?"
>

A city which was a justifiable military target.

[EDR]

As I remember it, the song goes something like this...

In 1814 we took a little trip
Along with Colonel Jackson down the mighty Mississip
We took a lot of bacon and we took alot of beans
And we march through the swamps to the town of New Orleans

[Refrain]
We fired our guns and the British kept a comin
There wasn't neigh as many as the was a while ago
We fired once more, and they commenced a runnin
Down the Mississipi to the town of New Orleans

We fired our cannons till the barrel melted down
So we grabbed an aligator and we fired another round
We filled his head with cannon balls and powdered his behind
And when we touched the powder off, the gator lost his mind

[refrain]

[David Megginson]

Steven P. McNicoll wrote:

>>Exactly -- that's the part where I said you were right.
>
> That would leave no part to be wrong.

The part where you suggested that the U.S. was already at war when it
decided to invade Canada was the wrong part -- the U.S. and Britain had been
at peace for 29 years, aside from the occasional diplomatic scuffle about
searching U.S. ships for British deserters.


All the best,


David

[G.R. Patterson III]

Cub Driver wrote:
>
> If there's such a shrine as you describe, I'd appreciate a pointer to
> it.

From the Introduction to _The Rape of Nanking_, by Iris Chang.

"What baffled and saddened me during the writing of this book was the persistent
Japanese refusal to come to terms with its own past. It is not just that Japan has
doled out less than 1 percent of the amount that Germany paid in war reparations to
its victims. It is not just that, unlike most Nazis, who, if not incarcerated for
their crimes were at least forced from public life, many Japanese war criminals
continue to occupy powerful positions in industry and government after the war. And
it is not just the fact that while Germans have made repeated apologies to their
Holocaust victims, the Japanese have enshrined their war criminals in Tokyo - an act
that one American wartime victim of the Japanese has labeled politically equivalent
to 'erecting a cathedral for Hitler in the middle of Berlin.'"

George Patterson
None of us is as dumb as all of us.

[Tom Sixkiller]

"David Megginson" > wrote in message
ble.rogers.com...
> Steven P. McNicoll wrote:
>
> >>Right and wrong: the war was against Britain, not Canada,
> >
> > Canada was British at that time.
>
> Exactly -- that's the part where I said you were right.
>
So....what's the problem?

[Tom Sixkiller]

"David Megginson" > wrote in message
ble.rogers.com...
> Steven P. McNicoll wrote:
>
> >>Exactly -- that's the part where I said you were right.
> >
> > That would leave no part to be wrong.
>
> The part where you suggested that the U.S. was already at war when it
> decided to invade Canada was the wrong part -- the U.S. and Britain had
been
> at peace for 29 years, aside from the occasional diplomatic scuffle about
> searching U.S. ships for British deserters.

And the intended/actual invasion occurred when?

[Tom Sixkiller]

"David Megginson" > wrote in message
ble.rogers.com...
> Tom Sixkiller wrote:
>
> >>Right and wrong: the war was against Britain, not Canada,
> >
> > And what was the status of Canada, regarding Britain, in 1774-1781 and
> > 1812-1815?
>
> It was a British colony (that's the part Steve got right), but they were
not
> already at war in 1812 (that's the part he got wrong). Congress declared
> war so that they could invade the Canadian colonies; they didn't invade
the
> Canadian colonies because they were at war.

Some document from that period would help your case.

[Tom Sixkiller]

"Steven P. McNicoll" > wrote in message
hlink.net...
>
> "Tom Sixkiller" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > Is it even completely independant today? I notice stuff I have from
Canada
> > (maps, etc) have some gibbersih about "Her Majesty the Queen"...
> >
>
> Canada achieved complete independence from the British Parliament in 1931,
> after the passage of The Statute of Westminster. The British monarch
> remains the chief of state but has very little authority.
>

Something about cutting the umbilical?

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Tom Sixkiller" > wrote in message
...
>
> Something about cutting the umbilical?
>

The parties involved seem content with the present situation.

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"David Megginson" > wrote in message
ble.rogers.com...
>
> It was a British colony (that's the part Steve got right), but they
> were not already at war in 1812 (that's the part he got wrong).
> Congress declared war so that they could invade the Canadian
> colonies; they didn't invade the Canadian colonies because they
> were at war.
>

The United States declared War on Great Britain on June 12, 1812. The US
invaded Canada one month later.

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"David Megginson" > wrote in message
ble.rogers.com...
>
> The part where you suggested that the U.S. was already at war when it
> decided to invade Canada was the wrong part --
>

The US and Britain were at war when the US invaded Canada.
The United States declared War on Great Britain on June 12, 1812. The US
invaded Canada one month later.

[Jay Honeck]

> The parties involved seem content with the present situation.

Even the Frenchies in Quebec?

That seems unlikely.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Paul Tomblin]

In a previous article, "Steven P. McNicoll" > said:
>"Tom Sixkiller" > wrote in message
...
>> Is it even completely independant today? I notice stuff I have from Canada
>> (maps, etc) have some gibbersih about "Her Majesty the Queen"...
>Canada achieved complete independence from the British Parliament in 1931,
>after the passage of The Statute of Westminster. The British monarch
>remains the chief of state but has very little authority.

Canada very generously allows the Queen of Canada to moonlight as the
Queen of the United Kingdom and some other places. Her duties in Canada
aren't that onerous so it leaves her plenty of time to pick up some extra
money elsewhere.

--
Paul Tomblin > http://xcski.com/blogs/pt/
Microsoft - Where quality is job 1.0.1

[leslie]

EDR ) wrote:
:
: As I remember it, the song goes something like this...
:
: In 1814 we took a little trip
: Along with Colonel Jackson down the mighty Mississip
: We took a lot of bacon and we took alot of beans
: And we march through the swamps to the town of New Orleans
:
: [Refrain]
: We fired our guns and the British kept a comin
: There wasn't neigh as many as the was a while ago
: We fired once more, and they commenced a runnin
: Down the Mississipi to the town of New Orleans
:
: We fired our cannons till the barrel melted down
: So we grabbed an aligator and we fired another round
: We filled his head with cannon balls and powdered his behind
: And when we touched the powder off, the gator lost his mind
:
: [refrain]
:

Available at:

http://www.petalumaspeedway.com/country.htm
Country Music

Other country classics like "Auctioneer", "Ballad of Paladin",
and "Crazy" also available there.

--Jerry Leslie
Note: is invalid for email

[Brian Burger]

On Sat, 29 May 2004, Steven P. McNicoll wrote:

>
> "Tom Sixkiller" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > Is it even completely independant today? I notice stuff I have from Canada
> > (maps, etc) have some gibbersih about "Her Majesty the Queen"...
> >
>
> Canada achieved complete independence from the British Parliament in 1931,
> after the passage of The Statute of Westminster. The British monarch
> remains the chief of state but has very little authority.

Actually, the Queen of Canada (and other places, thanks Paul!) happens to
be an Englishwoman, and (at least in theory) retains considerable power. A
democratic constituional monarchy is a bit more complex than, say, a
republic...

Parliament & the Governor-General exercise the Queen of Canada's authority
on a day-to-day basis, but it is (again, in theory) her authority, not
theirs...

At least we don't have a Texan moron in charge!

Brian.

[Mutts]

On Sat, 29 May 2004 17:44:04 -0700, Brian Burger
> wrote:

>
>
>At least we don't have a Texan moron in charge!
>
>Brian.


Can you fly an F-102?

[Duck Dog]

On Sat, 29 May 2004 04:35:51 GMT, "Jay Honeck"
> wrote:

>> In fairness to NASM, that's pretty much what they do with all their
>> aircraft. And it's probably more true at Udvar-Hazy than at the big
>> museum on the Mall. That's what I appreciated most about the new
>> annex: there's no Walt Disney "interpretation". If the kids aren't
>> happy looking at airplanes, they can go to the Imax.
>
>Man, Udvar-Hazy is sounding better all the time.
>
>The "Disney-treatment" of aircraft "artifacts" is what turned me off at the
>big museum on the Mall, and made me long for the Air Force Museum in Dayton.
>It almost seemed like the aircraft were an after-thought.

For me, the big appeal for the mall was the space stuff; Other than a
few historical pieces, the aircraft were mostly secondary. The AF
museum was THE place to go for military aircraft (I'd love to see a
civil aviation museum).

>Just the planes, ma'am, just the planes -- that's all I want. And it
>sounds like Udvar-Hazy delivers.

Yes, but you'll be through in a few hours. I was under the impression
they let you walk through the Concorde fuselage, but that was not to
be. It was pretty cool sitting by it while I ate my lunch, tho'.

>Next year, for sure!

Bring $12 for parking.

[Duck Dog]

On Sat, 29 May 2004 09:48:43 -0700, "Tom Sixkiller" >
wrote:

>
>"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
>news:o3Ntc.6254$4A6.731@attbi_s52...
>> > Amazing, if true, although it isn't the first time I've heard of the
>> > Japanese style of blindered teaching of this period of their history.
>>
>> I don't necessarily blame the Japanese for glossing over their own sordid
>> history. They have to shave every morning, too.
>
>I think the psychologists call that "evasion".

Nope, the word is "denial". To be fair, the post-war generations of
Japanese have never been TOLD of the sins of their nation. And
ironically, it may have been at least partly our doing.

>> My only worry is that *their* warped perception somehow becomes *our*
>view,
>> rather than the other way around. If we ever allow this to happen, and
>> we -- for instance -- "tone down" the Enola Gay display, we dishonor our
>> veterans and lose the moral high ground.
>
>It's worse to evade what you did well and proper than to try to forget.put
>past you, what you did wrong. I'd imagine a rather bad psychosis could
>develop, but imagine that psychosis on a national scale.
>
>

[Duck Dog]

On Sat, 29 May 2004 05:50:17 -0400, Cub Driver
> wrote:

>
>>They have a Shinto shrine in Tokyo dedicated to the perpetrator of the rape of
>>Nanking.
>
>I've never heard about this, and I've paid a lot of attention to
>Nanjing and Japanese memory. Most likely you're thinking of Yasukuni
>Jinja http://www.warbirdforum.com/yasukuni.htm which is neither in
>Tokyo nor dedicated to the Nanjing perps.
>
>If there's such a shrine as you describe, I'd appreciate a pointer to
>it.
>
>Yasukuni Jinja does indeed enshrine convicted war criminals from WWII.
>This is the English translation of the intepretation available at the
>shrine:
>
>"Moreover, there were those who gave up their lives after the end of
>the Great East Asian War, taking upon themselves the responsibility
>for the war. There were also 1,068 "Martyrs of Showa" who were cruelly
>and unjustly tried as war criminals by a sham-like tribunal of the
>Allied forces (United States, England, the Netherlands, China and
>others). These martyrs are also the Kami of Yasukuni Jinja."

Is this the place where Tojo's ashes were interred?

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
news:dw5uc.9931$3x.8122@attbi_s54...
>
> Even the Frenchies in Quebec?
>
> That seems unlikely.
>

I believe they had a plebiscite on separation from Canada a few years ago.
I see Quebec is still part of Canada.

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Brian Burger" > wrote in message
ia.tc.ca...
>
> Actually, the Queen of Canada (and other places, thanks Paul!) happens to
> be an Englishwoman, and (at least in theory) retains considerable power.
>

What power?


>
> At least we don't have a Texan moron in charge!
>

Nor do we any longer, thankfully!

[Ash Wyllie]

Orval Fairbairn opined

>In article >, "Ash Wyllie" >
>wrote:

>> Paul Tomblin opined
>>
>> >In a previous article, "Bill Denton" > said:
>> >>The problem is, that's the same sort of revisionism being taught to
>> >>American school children.
>>
>> >I'm still bewildered at how many USian adults don't know that the US
>> >tried to invade Canada during the Revolutionary War, and lost, and tried
>> >to invade Canada again during the the War of 1812 and lost, or that
>> >during the Wo1812, British and Canadian troops actually burned the White
>> >House, and that's why it's white - to hide the smoke stains on the marble.
>>
>> Could you guys come back and finish the job? And get the Capital building
>> this time too.
>>

>That's what the hijackers on UA 93 were trying to do!

Okay, don't kill any innocent civilians while you are at it. Is there such a
thing as an innocent politition?


-ash
Cthulhu for President!
Why vote for a lesser evil?

[Tom Sixkiller]

"Steven P. McNicoll" > wrote in message
hlink.net...
>
> "Tom Sixkiller" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > Something about cutting the umbilical?
> >
>
> The parties involved seem content with the present situation.

So did my brother-in-law that didn't leave home until he was 37.

[Tom Sixkiller]

"Steven P. McNicoll" > wrote in message
ink.net...
>
> "Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
> news:dw5uc.9931$3x.8122@attbi_s54...
> >
> > Even the Frenchies in Quebec?
> >
> > That seems unlikely.
> >
>
> I believe they had a plebiscite on separation from Canada a few years ago.

It failed by something like 50.5% to 49.5%

> I see Quebec is still part of Canada.

I wonder how those in western Canada feel about it.

[Tom Sixkiller]

"Brian Burger" > wrote in message
ia.tc.ca...
> Actually, the Queen of Canada (and other places, thanks Paul!) happens to
> be an Englishwoman, and (at least in theory) retains considerable power. A
> democratic constituional monarchy is a bit more complex than, say, a
> republic...
>
> Parliament & the Governor-General exercise the Queen of Canada's authority
> on a day-to-day basis, but it is (again, in theory) her authority, not
> theirs...
>
> At least we don't have a Texan moron in charge!

No...you have Canadian morons in charge...and they're doing a fabulous job
of screwing it up even worse than our Texican is doing.

[Tom Sixkiller]

"Duck Dog" > wrote in message
...
> On Sat, 29 May 2004 09:48:43 -0700, "Tom Sixkiller" >
> wrote:
>
> >
> >"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
> >news:o3Ntc.6254$4A6.731@attbi_s52...
> >> > Amazing, if true, although it isn't the first time I've heard of the
> >> > Japanese style of blindered teaching of this period of their history.
> >>
> >> I don't necessarily blame the Japanese for glossing over their own
sordid
> >> history. They have to shave every morning, too.
> >
> >I think the psychologists call that "evasion".
>
> Nope, the word is "denial".

Yup...that's the one.

> To be fair, the post-war generations of
> Japanese have never been TOLD of the sins of their nation. And
> ironically, it may have been at least partly our doing.

How would that be?

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Tom Sixkiller" > wrote in message
...
>
> I wonder how those in western Canada feel about it.
>

They may very well have been disappointed with the vote.

[Cub Driver]

>>Just the planes, ma'am, just the planes -- that's all I want. And it
>>sounds like Udvar-Hazy delivers.
>
>Yes, but you'll be through in a few hours.

I went out on the eight o'clock bus, so was standing in line for the
opening (very cold it was, too!). I came back on the three o'clock
bus. So I spent six hours there, which is more than I ever spent at
another museum in my life.

all the best -- Dan Ford
email: (put Cubdriver in subject line)

The Warbird's Forum www.warbirdforum.com
The Piper Cub Forum www.pipercubforum.com

[Cub Driver]

> the Japanese have enshrined their war criminals in Tokyo -

Not quite the same thing as a shrine to Nanjing. Nor is Yasukuni in
Tokyo.

Nor in fact is Yasukuni a shrine to war criminals. As posted, those
who were tried as war criminals are included among the war dead and
those who committed suicide afterward. (I don't think it's in Tokyo,
either, though my browser is down this morning.)


all the best -- Dan Ford
email: (put Cubdriver in subject line)

The Warbird's Forum www.warbirdforum.com
The Piper Cub Forum www.pipercubforum.com

[Cub Driver]

>>others). These martyrs are also the Kami of Yasukuni Jinja."
>
>Is this the place where Tojo's ashes were interred?

Yes, that would be the place.

all the best -- Dan Ford
email: (put Cubdriver in subject line)

The Warbird's Forum www.warbirdforum.com
The Piper Cub Forum www.pipercubforum.com

[Cub Driver]

> 1776-1783
> 1812-1815
>
>(Apologies if I missed something in-between -- this is all from memory.)

No, you didn't miss anything, though it was a near miss during the
(U.S.) Civil War.

By contrast, the U.S. and Britain in the past one hundred years have
been allies in three major wars and at least four small ones. So you
might say that the two countries have gotten over their bumpy start.


all the best -- Dan Ford
email: (put Cubdriver in subject line)

The Warbird's Forum www.warbirdforum.com
The Piper Cub Forum www.pipercubforum.com

[Cub Driver]

>Congress declared
>war so that they could invade the Canadian colonies; they didn't invade the
>Canadian colonies because they were at war.

How terribly oldfashioned of them!

(It's amazing, how many things you can learn on Usenet.)

all the best -- Dan Ford
email: (put Cubdriver in subject line)

The Warbird's Forum www.warbirdforum.com
The Piper Cub Forum www.pipercubforum.com

[Duck Dog]

On Sat, 29 May 2004 21:52:37 -0700, "Tom Sixkiller" >
wrote:

>
>"Duck Dog" > wrote in message
...
>> On Sat, 29 May 2004 09:48:43 -0700, "Tom Sixkiller" >
>> wrote:
>>
>> >
>> >"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
>> >news:o3Ntc.6254$4A6.731@attbi_s52...
>> >> > Amazing, if true, although it isn't the first time I've heard of the
>> >> > Japanese style of blindered teaching of this period of their history.
>> >>
>> >> I don't necessarily blame the Japanese for glossing over their own
>sordid
>> >> history. They have to shave every morning, too.
>> >
>> >I think the psychologists call that "evasion".
>>
>> Nope, the word is "denial".
>
>Yup...that's the one.

I knew my psych degree would come in handy some day. ;-)

>> To be fair, the post-war generations of
>> Japanese have never been TOLD of the sins of their nation. And
>> ironically, it may have been at least partly our doing.
>
>How would that be?

The American occupation authorities made a concerted effort to
revitalize Japan after the war (non-militarily, of course) in an
effort to create an ally in the region that would oppose communist
expansion. One aspect of this effort was instilling a sense of pride
in Japanese culture, and one of the ways that the U.S. accomplished
this was to de-emphasize the war guilt teachings that would otherwise
have been imposed on Japanese teachers and schools. There may have
been a certain logic to it then (indeed, it may have been the right
move), but the cost was 60 years of ignorance by the Japanese of their
own history of atrocities.

[Duck Dog]

On Sun, 30 May 2004 05:27:09 -0400, Cub Driver
> wrote:

>
>>>Just the planes, ma'am, just the planes -- that's all I want. And it
>>>sounds like Udvar-Hazy delivers.
>>
>>Yes, but you'll be through in a few hours.
>
>I went out on the eight o'clock bus, so was standing in line for the
>opening (very cold it was, too!). I came back on the three o'clock
>bus. So I spent six hours there, which is more than I ever spent at
>another museum in my life.

Some up close displays of, for example, the cockpits would have been
tres cool. Just looking at the exteriors of planes just wasn't enough
for me, although I could've spent all day looking at the blackbird
(that thing was HUGE).

>all the best -- Dan Ford
>email: (put Cubdriver in subject line)
>
>The Warbird's Forum www.warbirdforum.com
>The Piper Cub Forum www.pipercubforum.com

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Duck Dog" > wrote in message
...
>
> The American occupation authorities made a concerted effort to
> revitalize Japan after the war (non-militarily, of course) in an
> effort to create an ally in the region that would oppose communist
> expansion. One aspect of this effort was instilling a sense of pride
> in Japanese culture, and one of the ways that the U.S. accomplished
> this was to de-emphasize the war guilt teachings that would otherwise
> have been imposed on Japanese teachers and schools. There may have
> been a certain logic to it then (indeed, it may have been the right
> move), but the cost was 60 years of ignorance by the Japanese of their
> own history of atrocities.
>

The American occupation of Japan ended in 1952. What has stopped the
teaching of Japan's history as it happened for the last half-century?

[G.R. Patterson III]

Cub Driver wrote:
>
> > the Japanese have enshrined their war criminals in Tokyo -
>
> Not quite the same thing as a shrine to Nanjing. Nor is Yasukuni in
> Tokyo.
>
> Nor in fact is Yasukuni a shrine to war criminals. As posted, those
> who were tried as war criminals are included among the war dead and
> those who committed suicide afterward. (I don't think it's in Tokyo,
> either, though my browser is down this morning.)

First, I never said it was a shrine to Nanking, I said it was a shrine to the
*perpetrator* of the rape of Nanking. That's a war criminal. As to the rest, if
Yasukuni is not in Tokyo nor a shrine to war criminals, I would assume that Ms Chang
was not referring to Yasukuni.

George Patterson
None of us is as dumb as all of us.

[Tom Sixkiller]

"Steven P. McNicoll" > wrote in message
ink.net...
>
> "Tom Sixkiller" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > I wonder how those in western Canada feel about it.
> >
>
> They may very well have been disappointed with the vote.
>

The couple I know in Calgary were heartbroken.

[Tom Sixkiller]

"Duck Dog" > wrote in message
...
> >
> >Yup...that's the one.
>
> I knew my psych degree would come in handy some day. ;-)
>
> >> To be fair, the post-war generations of
> >> Japanese have never been TOLD of the sins of their nation. And
> >> ironically, it may have been at least partly our doing.
> >
> >How would that be?
>
> The American occupation authorities made a concerted effort to
> revitalize Japan after the war (non-militarily, of course) in an
> effort to create an ally in the region that would oppose communist
> expansion. One aspect of this effort was instilling a sense of pride
> in Japanese culture, and one of the ways that the U.S. accomplished
> this was to de-emphasize the war guilt teachings that would otherwise
> have been imposed on Japanese teachers and schools.

Hmmm...they had a funny way of doing it. At the time they tired to instill
pride in Japanese culture, they gave women the vote, broke up their old
economy, westernized them further than just about anyone else in the
region...

Not to mention stomped their military and drove their divine emporer from
heaven.

> There may have
> been a certain logic to it then (indeed, it may have been the right
> move), but the cost was 60 years of ignorance by the Japanese of their
> own history of atrocities.

Sounds like someone was practicing denial on the US side as well. :~)

[Tom Sixkiller]

"Cub Driver" > wrote in message
...
>
> >Congress declared
> >war so that they could invade the Canadian colonies; they didn't invade
the
> >Canadian colonies because they were at war.
>
> How terribly oldfashioned of them!
>
> (It's amazing, how many things you can learn on Usenet.)

Well, don't consider it "learned" just yet. We're still waiting for some
historical reference.

[G.R. Patterson III]

Tom Sixkiller wrote:
>
> "Cub Driver" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > >Congress declared
> > >war so that they could invade the Canadian colonies; they didn't invade
> the
> > >Canadian colonies because they were at war.
> >
> > How terribly oldfashioned of them!
> >
> > (It's amazing, how many things you can learn on Usenet.)
>
> Well, don't consider it "learned" just yet. We're still waiting for some
> historical reference.

Well, it's described concisely in the book _Don't Know Much About History_. The
congresscritters of that day used that argument to rouse public enthusiasm for the
war. I would provide a quote, but my copy has grow legs.

George Patterson
None of us is as dumb as all of us.

[Paul Tomblin]

In a previous article, "G.R. Patterson III" > said:
>Well, it's described concisely in the book _Don't Know Much About History_. The
>congresscritters of that day used that argument to rouse public
>enthusiasm for the
>war. I would provide a quote, but my copy has grow legs.

I can't remember the book, but what I read said that the coastal states
wanted to go to war to stop the Royal Navy from boarding US ships at sea
to "impress" (aka "Shanghai") US citizens into Royal Navy service, but in
order to get states like Tennessee and Kentucky to vote for the war, they
promised them the chance to invade and loot Canada.

--
Paul Tomblin > http://xcski.com/blogs/pt/
....life suddenly made much more sense, the day I fully grokked that people
are stupid.
-- Frank Sweetser

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Paul Tomblin" > wrote in message
...
>
> I can't remember the book, but what I read said that the coastal states
> wanted to go to war to stop the Royal Navy from boarding US ships at sea
> to "impress" (aka "Shanghai") US citizens into Royal Navy service, but in
> order to get states like Tennessee and Kentucky to vote for the war, they
> promised them the chance to invade and loot Canada.
>

What I read said Canada was considered a barren wasteland at the time and it
was expansion to the west that was desired. Barriers to that were European
alliances with various Indian tribes.

[Duck Dog]

On Sun, 30 May 2004 14:18:44 GMT, "Steven P. McNicoll"
> wrote:

>
>"Duck Dog" > wrote in message
...
>>
>> The American occupation authorities made a concerted effort to
>> revitalize Japan after the war (non-militarily, of course) in an
>> effort to create an ally in the region that would oppose communist
>> expansion. One aspect of this effort was instilling a sense of pride
>> in Japanese culture, and one of the ways that the U.S. accomplished
>> this was to de-emphasize the war guilt teachings that would otherwise
>> have been imposed on Japanese teachers and schools. There may have
>> been a certain logic to it then (indeed, it may have been the right
>> move), but the cost was 60 years of ignorance by the Japanese of their
>> own history of atrocities.
>>
>
>The American occupation of Japan ended in 1952. What has stopped the
>teaching of Japan's history as it happened for the last half-century?
>
Hey, I'm just saying we fostered it; certainly, I would agree that it
would be a valuable lesson for Japanese folks.

[Duck Dog]

On Sun, 30 May 2004 08:57:39 -0700, "Tom Sixkiller" >
wrote:

>
>"Duck Dog" > wrote in message
...
>> >
>> >Yup...that's the one.
>>
>> I knew my psych degree would come in handy some day. ;-)
>>
>> >> To be fair, the post-war generations of
>> >> Japanese have never been TOLD of the sins of their nation. And
>> >> ironically, it may have been at least partly our doing.
>> >
>> >How would that be?
>>
>> The American occupation authorities made a concerted effort to
>> revitalize Japan after the war (non-militarily, of course) in an
>> effort to create an ally in the region that would oppose communist
>> expansion. One aspect of this effort was instilling a sense of pride
>> in Japanese culture, and one of the ways that the U.S. accomplished
>> this was to de-emphasize the war guilt teachings that would otherwise
>> have been imposed on Japanese teachers and schools.
>
>Hmmm...they had a funny way of doing it. At the time they tired to instill
>pride in Japanese culture, they gave women the vote, broke up their old
>economy, westernized them further than just about anyone else in the
>region...

A fact that was welcomed by the Japanese at the time. See "Embracing
Defeat" by Dover.

>Not to mention stomped their military and drove their divine emporer from
>heaven.

I think that was VERY apparent to those living in Japan at the time.

>> There may have
>> been a certain logic to it then (indeed, it may have been the right
>> move), but the cost was 60 years of ignorance by the Japanese of their
>> own history of atrocities.
>
>Sounds like someone was practicing denial on the US side as well. :~)

Yep.

[David CL Francis]

On Sat, 29 May 2004 at 15:41:08 in message
rs.com>, David
Megginson > wrote:

> 1776-1783
> 1812-1815
>
>(Apologies if I missed something in-between -- this is all from
>memory.)
>
>We suffer from just as much propaganda about the War of 1812 here in
>Canada as you do in the U.S. I wouldn't suggest turning to the
>schoolbooks of either Canada or the U.S. for an honest evaluation.

As a Briton I understand that you had some good reasons for declaring
war, but remember that the British at that time were fully occupied in
fighting the French in an attempt to defeat Napoleon.

We were understandably trying to stop any ships from supplying France
but we went too far after capturing American ships in forcing their
crews to fight for us on our ships!

Last September we visited Put-in-Bay Island in Lake Erie and the Perry
Memorial to the battle that Admiral Perry won on Lake Erie. The US also
invaded part of Canada I understand.

We are all friends since then I hope and a real peace treaty was signed
after that, although of course Napoleon was finally defeated in 1815
anyway.

When I visited the Perry memorial and the Visitor Centre there I was
delighted when everyone laughed when I said I had come to find out why
we lost!
--
David CL Francis

[David CL Francis]

On Sat, 29 May 2004 at 09:41:40 in message
>, Tom Sixkiller >
wrote:

>Is it even completely independant today? I notice stuff I have from Canada
>(maps, etc) have some gibbersih about "Her Majesty the Queen"...

The British Queen is a constitutional monarch. She has no control over
Canada and almost zero over the UK. She is a figurehead.
--
David CL Francis

[G.R. Patterson III]

Paul Tomblin wrote:
>
> I can't remember the book, but what I read said that the coastal states
> wanted to go to war to stop the Royal Navy from boarding US ships at sea
> to "impress" (aka "Shanghai") US citizens into Royal Navy service, but in
> order to get states like Tennessee and Kentucky to vote for the war, they
> promised them the chance to invade and loot Canada.

Dunno 'bout Kaintuck, but Tennessee was part of North Carolina in 1812. It had only
been opened up for settlement for about 15 years at the time.

George Patterson
None of us is as dumb as all of us.

[G.R. Patterson III]

David CL Francis wrote:
>
> We were understandably trying to stop any ships from supplying France
> but we went too far after capturing American ships in forcing their
> crews to fight for us on our ships!

Actually, it was simpler than that. British captains were responsible for obtaining
crews for their ships. If they stopped American ships and kidnapped Americans for
their crews, it would take at least 9 months for the complaint to reach England, it
would almost certainly be ignored by the Admiralty, and they might well be dead by
then. The attitude of the British government on the matter was not the least
important to those captains. So the kidnappings continued.

George Patterson
None of us is as dumb as all of us.

[G.R. Patterson III]

Duck Dog wrote:
>
> The American occupation authorities made a concerted effort to
> revitalize Japan after the war (non-militarily, of course) in an
> effort to create an ally in the region that would oppose communist
> expansion.

Very well put. That's the basic situation - the area was going Communist, and we
badly needed a base in Asia that wasn't.

George Patterson
None of us is as dumb as all of us.

[Morgans]

"David CL Francis"
>
> When I visited the Perry memorial and the Visitor Centre there I was
> delighted when everyone laughed when I said I had come to find out why
> we lost!
> --
> David CL Francis

Nice place, isn't it? Many years ago, I used to spend a lot of time there,
and at the winery, but mostly used sailboats as my transportation. Everyone
knows sailboats are better to drive than airplanes, when you have a snoot
full! <g>

Was the Ford Trimotor still doing regular runs out to the islands?
--
Jim in NC


---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.690 / Virus Database: 451 - Release Date: 5/22/2004

[Cub Driver]

>Some up close displays of, for example, the cockpits would have been
>tres cool. Just looking at the exteriors of planes just wasn't enough
>for me, although I could've spent all day looking at the blackbird
>(that thing was HUGE).

It's nice to be a journalist. I got to sit in the cockpit of the
AD/A-1 Skyraider at Pensacola, got the full tour of the B-36
Peacemaker at Wright-Patt, and likewise sat in the cockpit of the B-47
at New England Air Museum.

Small museums are great, while I was walking around NE Air Museum at
Windsor Locks, I noticed that there was a stairs set beside the
Corsair on display. I asked the docent about this, and he said that
every week? they had tours for schoolkids so they could sit in the
cockpit. I went into major whine mode, and sure enough he gave me the
nod to climb in. I could never have pulled that off at NASM.

all the best -- Dan Ford
email: (put Cubdriver in subject line)

The Warbird's Forum www.warbirdforum.com
The Piper Cub Forum www.pipercubforum.com

[Cub Driver]

> As to the rest, if
>Yasukuni is not in Tokyo nor a shrine to war criminals, I would assume that Ms Chang
>was not referring to Yasukuni.

Not at all. Iris Chang was wrong, plain and simple. She misplaced
Yasukuni and misunderstood its purpose. It is a shrine to the millions
who died in Japan's wars, in a much more ghostly fashion than
Arlington National Cemetery. The kamikaze would toast each other
before they went out on their one-way flights: "We will meet again at
Yasukuni."

Where Chang got hold of a half-truth is that the hanged war criminals
were also enshrined there, along with those officers and officials who
committed suicide at the end of the war. Thus Tojo made it in, along
with General Honma who defeated MacArthur in the Philippines. The
Japanese think these men were scapegoats, so find it perfectly natural
that they should be honored at Yasukuni. We think otherwise.

It's ironical that you should criticize the Japanese on the one hand
for not teaching their children about WWII, and on the other for
criticizing them for honoring the war dead at Yasukuni. Absent the
shrine, there wouldn't be any memorial to the war at all. (Well, there
would be the obelisk at ground zero at Hiroshima.)

all the best -- Dan Ford
email: (put Cubdriver in subject line)

The Warbird's Forum www.warbirdforum.com
The Piper Cub Forum www.pipercubforum.com

[Paul Tomblin]

In a previous article, "G.R. Patterson III" > said:
>David CL Francis wrote:
>> We were understandably trying to stop any ships from supplying France
>> but we went too far after capturing American ships in forcing their
>> crews to fight for us on our ships!
>
>then. The attitude of the British government on the matter was not the least
>important to those captains. So the kidnappings continued.

I thought the attitude of the British government was that since the
American seaman being impressed were likely born as British citizens, it
was all legal and above board?


--
Paul Tomblin > http://xcski.com/blogs/pt/
If you drink Real beer, you become horizontal... so, if you
drink Imaginary beer, you become vertical...
-- Thorfinn

[Tom Sixkiller]

"Cub Driver" > wrote in message
...
>
> It's ironical that you should criticize the Japanese on the one hand
> for not teaching their children about WWII, and on the other for
> criticizing them for honoring the war dead at Yasukuni. Absent the
> shrine, there wouldn't be any memorial to the war at all. (Well, there
> would be the obelisk at ground zero at Hiroshima.)

That sounds like a major drop in context...would you clarify?

[Tom Sixkiller]

"Paul Tomblin" > wrote in message
...
> In a previous article, "G.R. Patterson III" > said:
> >David CL Francis wrote:
> >> We were understandably trying to stop any ships from supplying France
> >> but we went too far after capturing American ships in forcing their
> >> crews to fight for us on our ships!
> >
> >then. The attitude of the British government on the matter was not the
least
> >important to those captains. So the kidnappings continued.
>
> I thought the attitude of the British government was that since the
> American seaman being impressed were likely born as British citizens, it
> was all legal and above board?

That sounds more like a lame excuse governments typically use, given that
the seamen were generally in their 20's and the US had been a nation for
over 30 years.

[G.R. Patterson III]

Paul Tomblin wrote:
>
> I thought the attitude of the British government was that since the
> American seaman being impressed were likely born as British citizens, it
> was all legal and above board?

No, both Parliament and the King had repeatedly told the Admiralty to stop the
practice of impressment from American ships.

George Patterson
None of us is as dumb as all of us.

[G.R. Patterson III]

Cub Driver wrote:
>
> > As to the rest, if
> >Yasukuni is not in Tokyo nor a shrine to war criminals, I would assume that Ms Chang
> >was not referring to Yasukuni.
>
> Not at all. Iris Chang was wrong, plain and simple.

Well, I have seen no indication that you are correct.

George Patterson
None of us is as dumb as all of us.

[Jay Honeck]

> The British Queen is a constitutional monarch. She has no control over
> Canada and almost zero over the UK. She is a figurehead.

I was under the impression that the Crown still had veto power over
Parliament?
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Paul Tomblin]

In a previous article, "Jay Honeck" > said:
>> The British Queen is a constitutional monarch. She has no control over
>> Canada and almost zero over the UK. She is a figurehead.
>I was under the impression that the Crown still had veto power over
>Parliament?

If the Crown ever tried to exercise that power, they would soon find
themselves out of a job. Look at Fiji - the Queen didn't even dare say a
word when the democratic government was overthrown by a military coup. Or
Australia, which is probably going to become a Republic real soon now
because the Governor General had the audacity to refuse to recognize a
government.


--
Paul Tomblin > http://xcski.com/blogs/pt/
[Once in a lifetime opportunity] is simply a veiled reference to the staff
contract termination procedure, which involves a sunny wall, a single
cigarette and some middling to average marksmen... -- Dan Holdsworth

[Brian Burger]

On Mon, 31 May 2004, Jay Honeck wrote:

> > The British Queen is a constitutional monarch. She has no control over
> > Canada and almost zero over the UK. She is a figurehead.
>
> I was under the impression that the Crown still had veto power over
> Parliament?

Technically, yes. The Governor-General (the Queen's representitive in
Canada) can technically send legislation back to Parliament, and even
dissolve Parliament (forcing a general election).

In practice, it's wildly unlikely to happen. The government of the day
appoints the GG (who is then approved by the Queen), and actual exercises
of power by the GG *against the will of the current government/Parliament*
don't happen much.

The Queen (or her reps, the General- and Lt- Governors) reigns, but does
not rule. More or less. Being based on the UK's largely unwritten
constitution, constitutional monarchy is a bit fuzzier than, say,
American-style constitutional republicanism. (small-r republicanism...)

Brian.

[Duck Dog]

On Mon, 31 May 2004 15:35:22 GMT, "G.R. Patterson III"
> wrote:

>
>
>Cub Driver wrote:
>>
>> > As to the rest, if
>> >Yasukuni is not in Tokyo nor a shrine to war criminals, I would assume that Ms Chang
>> >was not referring to Yasukuni.
>>
>> Not at all. Iris Chang was wrong, plain and simple.
>
>Well, I have seen no indication that you are correct.

Yasukuni is a shrine to Japanese war dead, and appears to be located
in the "Kudan District of Chiyoda ward, Tokyo." See:

http://www.geocities.com/gatoesmuchogor/

http://www.japan-guide.com/e/e2321.html

>George Patterson
> None of us is as dumb as all of us.

[David CL Francis]

On Sun, 30 May 2004 at 22:15:26 in message
>, Morgans
> wrote:

>Nice place, isn't it? Many years ago, I used to spend a lot of time there,
>and at the winery, but mostly used sailboats as my transportation. Everyone
>knows sailboats are better to drive than airplanes, when you have a snoot
>full! <g>
>
Indeed it is a splendid place. I took quite a lot of pictures. We
walked as far as the airfield and watched a couple of take-offs - I was
interested to see what the margin was over the trees at the end of the
runway!

Sailing is something I used to do many years ago. I was no good at any
activity that needed a ball - sailing was fine.

>Was the Ford Trimotor still doing regular runs out to the islands?

I did not see it nor any publicity about it but we were there near the
end of the season. What it is like when all the golf carts are in
operation I can't imagine!
--
David CL Francis

[Paul Sengupta]

"Cub Driver" > wrote in message
...
> Small museums are great, while I was walking around NE Air Museum at
> Windsor Locks, I noticed that there was a stairs set beside the
> Corsair on display. I asked the docent about this, and he said that
> every week? they had tours for schoolkids so they could sit in the
> cockpit. I went into major whine mode, and sure enough he gave me the
> nod to climb in. I could never have pulled that off at NASM.

If anyone wants to sit in a Harrier, the famous company demonstrator
G-VTOL no less, come to Brooklands Museum. Whenever we have
enough volunteers to open it up, you can go and sit in it and make
screeching/
roaring noises and fiddle with the nozzle lever and throttle if you like...

http://www.brooklandsmuseum.com

Paul

[Mark]

wrote in message >...
> I can't vouch for the authenticity of this story. I was talking with
> an acquaintence I don't see often and he asked me: "You're a pilot
> aren't you?" I told him I was, that I'd gotten my PPL last August.
>
> He then launched into this story he'd heard from a relative who worked
> at the Udvar Hazy Center down in Washington.
>
> He told me that the director, an ex general, was squiring a group of
> Japanese journalists around the center (date of this incident not
> mentioned). When they passed the Enola Gay, some of the journalists
> spoke up and said that they were offended by the display, saying that
> the bomber had dropped the atomic bomb on Japan.
>
> The ex general asked them what they thought about Pearl Harbor. The
> Japanese, all journalists, were bewildered. "What about Pearl
> Harbor?" They asked.
> <snip>

Ever been to Perl Harbor on Oahu? When I was there last fall I would
estimate between 50% and 75% of the tourist on the boat ride to the
Arizona Memorial were from Japan.

I really don't believe that all the Japanese journalists didn't know
about Perl Harbor. I'm sure if you asked a sample of Americans to name
the city's we drop Atomic bombs on to end WW2 they could not come up
with the correct answer. However they do know it happened.

I work with a lot of people from Asia including Japan. I have to
admit that their knowledge of military world history is
limited/skewed.

[Dave Stadt]

"Mark" > wrote in message
om...
> wrote in message
>...
> > I can't vouch for the authenticity of this story. I was talking with
> > an acquaintence I don't see often and he asked me: "You're a pilot
> > aren't you?" I told him I was, that I'd gotten my PPL last August.
> >
> > He then launched into this story he'd heard from a relative who worked
> > at the Udvar Hazy Center down in Washington.
> >
> > He told me that the director, an ex general, was squiring a group of
> > Japanese journalists around the center (date of this incident not
> > mentioned). When they passed the Enola Gay, some of the journalists
> > spoke up and said that they were offended by the display, saying that
> > the bomber had dropped the atomic bomb on Japan.
> >
> > The ex general asked them what they thought about Pearl Harbor. The
> > Japanese, all journalists, were bewildered. "What about Pearl
> > Harbor?" They asked.
> > <snip>
>
> Ever been to Perl Harbor on Oahu? When I was there last fall I would
> estimate between 50% and 75% of the tourist on the boat ride to the
> Arizona Memorial were from Japan.

Haven't been there but those that I know that have say the Japs are very
disrespectful while on the memorial.

[Mark]

"Dave Stadt" > wrote in message >...
> "Mark" > wrote in message
> om...
> > wrote in message
> >...
> > > I can't vouch for the authenticity of this story. I was talking with
> > > an acquaintence I don't see often and he asked me: "You're a pilot
> > > aren't you?" I told him I was, that I'd gotten my PPL last August.
> > >
> > > He then launched into this story he'd heard from a relative who worked
> > > at the Udvar Hazy Center down in Washington.
> > >
> > > He told me that the director, an ex general, was squiring a group of
> > > Japanese journalists around the center (date of this incident not
> > > mentioned). When they passed the Enola Gay, some of the journalists
> > > spoke up and said that they were offended by the display, saying that
> > > the bomber had dropped the atomic bomb on Japan.
> > >
> > > The ex general asked them what they thought about Pearl Harbor. The
> > > Japanese, all journalists, were bewildered. "What about Pearl
> > > Harbor?" They asked.
> > > <snip>
> >
> > Ever been to Perl Harbor on Oahu? When I was there last fall I would
> > estimate between 50% and 75% of the tourist on the boat ride to the
> > Arizona Memorial were from Japan.
>
> Haven't been there but those that I know that have say the Japs are very
> disrespectful while on the memorial.

Let me give you another first hand account of Japanese people at the
Pearl Harbor memorial. When I was there this past fall, everyone was
very respectful. The Japanese people were just like everyone else in
our tour group.

We had to get a ticket for the boat ride to the memorial. When they
call your ticket you go into an auditorium for a ~25 minute movie on
the history of Dec 7th, 1941. Then you board a boat (operated by the
Navy) that takes you out to the Arizona Memorial. You get to spend
about 20-20 minutes at the memorial and then take the boat ride back.

I remember while we were waiting for our ticket to be called, it was
your normal crowd of tourist. Kids running around, people taking
pictures. However once in the auditorium everyone got quiet and the
proper respect was made. While at the Arizona Memorial I remember
watching some of the Japanese people and I could tell in their faces
that they had respect for both the Americans and Japanese people that
died that day. You didn't hear any kids screaming or people taking
loudly. I was very impressed with how everyone acted. They even had
some Pearl Harbor survivors present and I remember Japanese people
having their pictures taken with these veterans.

If you're even on Oahu, take time to stop at Pearl Harbor. On they
busy Saturday morning when my wife and I visited the memorial, it only
took a little more than 2 hours.

[Jim Buckridge]

"Steven P. McNicoll" > wrote in message .net>...

> The color of the White House has nothing to do with the burning of the
> structure by the British in 1814. The building was first made white with
> lime-based whitewash in 1798, when its walls were finished, simply as a
> means of protecting the porous stone from freezing.

My sentiments exactly.

http://www.snopes.com/language/colors/whithous.htm