First non-pilot passenger

[Louis L. Perley III]

Took up my first non-pilot passenger today. I've had my private
certificate for almost 3 years now, but never had anyone else in the
aircraft that wasn't a pilot/instructor, etc. My wife will not fly with me,
but I'm still hopeful that that day will be sooner rather than later. Since
we just had a new little one about a week ago I haven't had much chance to
fly lately, but today was looking pretty decent, and I'd done 16 touch &
goes the day before so I figured I'd go up again. This time I asked my 2
year old if she'd like to come with me today. She agreed so I grabbed a
spare headset and we headed out to JeffCo (KBJC). On the way there I
realized that I might have a problem since her carseat is one of those
models with a baseplate that is rather large, and I fly a C152, so I wasn't
sure if we'd both fit. Walked out to the plane (seemed a lot farther away
when walking with a 2 year old and carrying a carseat) and was able to get
her seatbelt secure, did the preflight/walkaround and then hopped in to see
if I'd fit too. It was tight, but I was able to make it work. I also noticed
that her position would make it very easy for her to kick out any flaps I'd
put in, etc. I told her that she wasn't allowed to kick or touch anything,
and she seemed to understand well enough. I was able to better fit the David
Clarks on her head so I grabbed the other headset (some generic brand, cost
me $100) and we were ready to go.
I made sure to tell her what I was doing when I started the plane so the
sudden noises and such wouldn't scare her. She took everything in stride, I
was quite proud of her, and so far she seemed to be enjoying herself. We
taxied out to 29R, completed the run-up and tower cleared me for departure.
The plan was to stay in the pattern for some touch and goes. I've read here
on the group to keep it simple the first few times, so that's what I did.
About 200 feet above the runway she realized we were flying and became
really excited, I took this as a good sign. I made it a point to point
things out to her that she could see out the window, the lake to the south,
the houses, etc. She was doing really well. The winds shifted a bit and we
were told after departing 29L for the second time to do a left 270 and back
to final for runway 11R, we did a few more touch and goes. On the fourth
pattern I looked over and it looked like she was starting to nod off. A bit
later we had been up for just shy of an hour, I figured this was enough time
for a first-timer and informed tower that this would be a full stop. Due to
traffic they weren't able to get me to 11L so I'd have to land long on the
right and wait to cross the left runway and back to the ramp. On downwind my
little girl started throwing up. It's interesting hearing such things happen
when there's a microphone sitting right in the path, makes for interesting
intercom noise. One needs to understand that I'm generally a sympathetic
vomiter, so I figured this was going to create a problem for me as well.
Gratefully it didn't seem to affect me, I'm pretty sure it was just the fact
that I was the sole person in the plane capable of landing it so my mind
just blocked out what was going on just to my right. I made sure she was ok
and tuned a short base. Was able to get the plane on the ground and back to
the tie downs. As soon as I'd pulled the mixture the smell hit me pretty
hard so I had to open the window and hop out of the plane for some fresh
air. I quickly tied down the plane since it was a bit windy and grabbed some
rags that were meant for oil checks and such but were clean and started to
clean her up as best I could. I must say I was tempted to take her carseat
and all over to the aircraft washing area and hose them both off, but
figured that wouldn't look too good <grin>.
Was able to get her home and cleaned up and when my wife asked her if
she ever wanted to go flying with daddy again she said "Not today anymore,
tomorrow". Hopefully she'll be willing in the future, she's still pretty
excited that we went. Maybe with more positive experiences (it was positive
overall at least) we can convince her mother to go with me sometime down the
road. So all this leaves me with a couple of questions.

1. Do they make anything like Dramamine for kids? If not, any suggestions? I
know it took my awhile to get a stomach that wouldn't get queasy when
flying.

2. I was able to get the foam covering the mike on the David Clarks to clean
it , but can I get the mike itself wet to clean it? Will it damage it in any
way?

--
Louis L. Perley III
N46000

[Ditch]

> On downwind my
>little girl started throwing up.

That's too bad, but she seemed to take it in stride.
I usually limit flights with kids to about 15-20 minutes for their first time
out.

>It's interesting hearing such things happen
>when there's a microphone sitting right in the path, makes for interesting
>intercom noise.

Indeed! While giving rides in warbirds, we had quite a few get sick and some of
them didn't move the mike out of the way. Our flights were video taped with
audio as well.
It usually provided the family waiting on the ground with some amusement.


>I'm generally a sympathetic
>vomiter

I am too. That was one thing I dreaded when flying the T-6 with rides (which
was my job for two years) But when I am flying the airplane, I get focused on
what needs to be done and that overrides everything else. Once on the ground
the initial shock (or whatever) went away and focused on the customer and their
well being. Except for one time when the person did very well thru everything
and while were standing next to the airplane posing for a picture, he erupted.
I made a hasty departure back to the office!!

> but can I get the mike itself wet to clean it? Will it damage it in any
>way?

Hmm...have you tried something small and pointy to pick the stuff out? I
wouldn't suggest getting the mike wet.

Overall tho, it sounds like your daughter had fun and I am sure she will want
to go again. Next time, keep the flight short and build from there.


-John
*You are nothing until you have flown a Douglas, Lockheed, Grumman or North
American*

[Bushy]

Bet the next aircraft renter loves you!

Peter

[Ray]

> 2. I was able to get the foam covering the mike on the David Clarks to
clean
> it , but can I get the mike itself wet to clean it? Will it damage it in
any
> way?

In theory, nothing in an electret microphone will be damaged by water *when
the power is off*. The headset manuals that I've seen recommend wiping with
a damp cloth - they warn against immersing the microphone in water, the
primary concern being corrosion from residual water. I would start with a
cloth dampened with rubbing (isopropyl) alcohol. It will clean better than
water, evaporate faster, and won't leave behind any residual salt. If
necessary, there's no reason why you can't dunk the whole mike in alcohol -
though you might want to save that as a last resort.

Whatever you do, the key is to be absolutely sure that the mike is dry
before plugging it in. Leave the headset in a dry, well ventilated area.
To be safe, leave it for at least 24 hours - longer if you get it extra wet.

Disclaimer: I've never actually done any of this before - so don't come
after me if my recommendations cause your headset to spontaneously combust.

- Ray

[Louis L. Perley III]

"Bushy" > wrote in message
...
> Bet the next aircraft renter loves you!
>
> Peter
>
>

This wasn't a rental, I own this C152, so today I'll be heading back to
the airport with some Febreeze. Whoever came up with that stuff is a
genius!. Overall it mainly stayed in the carseat, so it wasn't as messy as I
feared it would be. It was one of the rare occasions when I was grateful to
have a plane made in the '70s complete with orange seats and carpeting which
will make any stains that much harder to spot.

--
Louis L. Perley III
N46000

[David Megginson]

Louis L. Perley III wrote:

> This wasn't a rental, I own this C152, so today I'll be heading back to
> the airport with some Febreeze. Whoever came up with that stuff is a
> genius!. Overall it mainly stayed in the carseat, so it wasn't as messy as I
> feared it would be. It was one of the rare occasions when I was grateful to
> have a plane made in the '70s complete with orange seats and carpeting which
> will make any stains that much harder to spot.

First, congrats on your first passenger.

Beyond cleaning up messes, you'll find lots more reasons to be glad about
owning an inexpensive, older plane over the next few years. Of course,
you'll be down to driving speed (or worse) with a headwind, and I'm sure
you've already heard the joke about the Airworthiness Directive for
150/152's requiring you to reinforce the tail against bird strikes, but when
you're paying US $10-15/hour for gas, I bet that you'll be flying a lot
while the gas-guzzling twins and high-performance singles are just sitting
on the ramp (fuel-efficient Mooneys excepted, of course).

You'll probably also love your $500-$1,000 annuals, low insurance costs, and
the total lack of any temptation to go out and spend $20-30K to put in a new
leather interior or a Garmin stack. You also won't always be hovering
around fretting that the line guy is going to scratch your perfect paint
with the tractor or gas nozzle.


All the best,


David

[Louis L. Perley III]

"David Megginson" > wrote in message
.rogers.com...
> Louis L. Perley III wrote:
>
> > This wasn't a rental, I own this C152, so today I'll be heading back
to
> > the airport with some Febreeze. Whoever came up with that stuff is a
> > genius!. Overall it mainly stayed in the carseat, so it wasn't as messy
as I
> > feared it would be. It was one of the rare occasions when I was grateful
to
> > have a plane made in the '70s complete with orange seats and carpeting
which
> > will make any stains that much harder to spot.
>
> First, congrats on your first passenger.
>
> Beyond cleaning up messes, you'll find lots more reasons to be glad about
> owning an inexpensive, older plane over the next few years. Of course,
> you'll be down to driving speed (or worse) with a headwind, and I'm sure
> you've already heard the joke about the Airworthiness Directive for
> 150/152's requiring you to reinforce the tail against bird strikes, but
when
> you're paying US $10-15/hour for gas, I bet that you'll be flying a lot
> while the gas-guzzling twins and high-performance singles are just sitting
> on the ramp (fuel-efficient Mooneys excepted, of course).
>
> You'll probably also love your $500-$1,000 annuals, low insurance costs,
and
> the total lack of any temptation to go out and spend $20-30K to put in a
new
> leather interior or a Garmin stack. You also won't always be hovering
> around fretting that the line guy is going to scratch your perfect paint
> with the tractor or gas nozzle.
>
>
> All the best,
>
>
> David

This is exactly why I bought a C152 early in my training. I was doing
some calculations and wondered where all the cost of renting came from. Once
I calculated that I found that I could buy a decent bird for around ~25,000
and after that, as you say about the only hourly cost is fuel and oil.
Insurance and Annuals are once a year events that you just suck up and pay.
Simple airplane = simple maintenance and low-cost insurance so that too
keeps costs low. Since a C152 isn't really overpowered for the altitudes I
fly (BJC is 5500 ft) it would also force me to learn how to manage my power
and such much more carefully than if I flew a plane that I could just power
my way out of a problem (although I must admit when I fly the new 172SP I
love the way they seem to leap off the runway compared to what I fly, yes,
it's true what they say, you always want something bigger, faster, etc.) The
plan was to take my checkride in this particular airplane, but I also
quickly learned the hard part of being an owner when my engine started
making metal large enough to punch holes in the paper oil filter. I was
grounded two weeks before my checkride, which was taken in a rental. It took
me awhile due to outside activities to come up with money for a new engine,
but now that I've put her back together, it's like you said. I look outside,
weather is acceptable (and I've done everything on the honeydo list), I'll
go fly. Even with gas prices pretty high, it only cost me $20/hr. to fly,
excluding fixed costs. Those fixed costs I don't ever really figure into my
equation, because they come due regardless of how much I fly and compared to
club dues if I were renting, that pretty much covers insurance, and much the
same those dues would be paid monthly regardless of the amount I rented.
Annuals are a non-event costing $500 or so if I take the time to open up the
plane myself.
Jay Honeck is correct, we need to be better at spreading the word at how
low-cost flying can be. Sure I won't ever do significant business travel
with a C152, then again you can't spin a King Air. Aviation has it's trade
offs. If you can afford a new car (and really even if you can't), you can
get an airplane and really go somewhere. Since I now have two children, I
will eventually need a larger plane, but I don't think I could ever sell
N46000, it's just too much fun! I've now put in some additional avionics and
such, just here and there when money was available, so now I have an
airplane that is IFR capable, once I have the instrument checkride
completed, I'll have a low-cost way to maintain my currency.

--
Louis L. Perley III
N46000

[Blanche]

Next time, don't let munchkins eat before flying. That may help.

"...if you can afford a new car, you can afford to fly..."

yup -- that's been my mantra for years. Pick a car. Any car. You
can find an airplane for that price.

It's entirely what you wish to do.

[Blanche]

Call Dave Clark and ask what they recommend for cleaning.
You just might be surprised!

[David Megginson]

Louis L. Perley III wrote:

> This is exactly why I bought a C152 early in my training. I was doing
> some calculations and wondered where all the cost of renting came from. Once
> I calculated that I found that I could buy a decent bird for around ~25,000
> and after that, as you say about the only hourly cost is fuel and oil.
> Insurance and Annuals are once a year events that you just suck up and pay.
> Simple airplane = simple maintenance and low-cost insurance so that too
> keeps costs low. Since a C152 isn't really overpowered for the altitudes I
> fly (BJC is 5500 ft) it would also force me to learn how to manage my power
> and such much more carefully than if I flew a plane that I could just power
> my way out of a problem (although I must admit when I fly the new 172SP I
> love the way they seem to leap off the runway compared to what I fly, yes,
> it's true what they say, you always want something bigger, faster, etc.) The
> plan was to take my checkride in this particular airplane, but I also
> quickly learned the hard part of being an owner when my engine started
> making metal large enough to punch holes in the paper oil filter. I was
> grounded two weeks before my checkride, which was taken in a rental. It took
> me awhile due to outside activities to come up with money for a new engine,
> but now that I've put her back together, it's like you said. I look outside,
> weather is acceptable (and I've done everything on the honeydo list), I'll
> go fly. Even with gas prices pretty high, it only cost me $20/hr. to fly,
> excluding fixed costs. Those fixed costs I don't ever really figure into my
> equation, because they come due regardless of how much I fly and compared to
> club dues if I were renting, that pretty much covers insurance, and much the
> same those dues would be paid monthly regardless of the amount I rented.
> Annuals are a non-event costing $500 or so if I take the time to open up the
> plane myself.
> Jay Honeck is correct, we need to be better at spreading the word at how
> low-cost flying can be. Sure I won't ever do significant business travel
> with a C152, then again you can't spin a King Air. Aviation has it's trade
> offs. If you can afford a new car (and really even if you can't), you can
> get an airplane and really go somewhere. Since I now have two children, I
> will eventually need a larger plane, but I don't think I could ever sell
> N46000, it's just too much fun! I've now put in some additional avionics and
> such, just here and there when money was available, so now I have an
> airplane that is IFR capable, once I have the instrument checkride
> completed, I'll have a low-cost way to maintain my currency.
>
> --
> Louis L. Perley III
> N46000
>
>

[David Megginson]

Louis L. Perley III wrote:

> This is exactly why I bought a C152 early in my training. I was doing
> some calculations and wondered where all the cost of renting came from. Once
> I calculated that I found that I could buy a decent bird for around ~25,000
> and after that, as you say about the only hourly cost is fuel and oil.

.... and engine reserve (as you've already realized), but I'm guessing that's
a pretty small number for you averaged out over TBO, despite the pain of
your recent overhaul. Did you buy the plane with a runout engine, or did it
catch you by surprise?


Keep having fun.


All the best,


David

[Edward Todd]

In article >,
(Ditch) wrote:

> > On downwind my
> >little girl started throwing up.
>
> That's too bad, but she seemed to take it in stride.
> I usually limit flights with kids to about 15-20 minutes for their first time
> out.
>
>

Thats what I was going to say. The ups and downs and dozens of turns of
an hours worth of touch and gos is not the best way to introduce anyone
to flying.

Better to take off, climb out straight until above the lower turbulence
and give them a gentle site seeing tour of the area outside the
airport's control space.

Edward

[zatatime]

On Fri, 28 May 2004 23:36:40 -0600, "Louis L. Perley III"
> wrote:

> Took up my first non-pilot passenger today. I've had my private
>certificate for almost 3 years now, but never had anyone else in the
>aircraft that wasn't a pilot/instructor, etc. My wife will not fly with me,
>but I'm still hopeful that that day will be sooner rather than later. Since
>we just had a new little one about a week ago I haven't had much chance to
>fly lately, but today was looking pretty decent, and I'd done 16 touch &
>goes the day before so I figured I'd go up again. This time I asked my 2
>year old if she'd like to come with me today. She agreed so I grabbed a
>spare headset and we headed out to JeffCo (KBJC). On the way there I
>realized that I might have a problem since her carseat is one of those
>models with a baseplate that is rather large, and I fly a C152, so I wasn't
>sure if we'd both fit. Walked out to the plane (seemed a lot farther away
>when walking with a 2 year old and carrying a carseat) and was able to get
>her seatbelt secure, did the preflight/walkaround and then hopped in to see
>if I'd fit too. It was tight, but I was able to make it work. I also noticed
>that her position would make it very easy for her to kick out any flaps I'd
>put in, etc. I told her that she wasn't allowed to kick or touch anything,
>and she seemed to understand well enough. I was able to better fit the David
>Clarks on her head so I grabbed the other headset (some generic brand, cost
>me $100) and we were ready to go.
> I made sure to tell her what I was doing when I started the plane so the
>sudden noises and such wouldn't scare her. She took everything in stride, I
>was quite proud of her, and so far she seemed to be enjoying herself. We
>taxied out to 29R, completed the run-up and tower cleared me for departure.
>The plan was to stay in the pattern for some touch and goes. I've read here
>on the group to keep it simple the first few times, so that's what I did.
>About 200 feet above the runway she realized we were flying and became
>really excited, I took this as a good sign. I made it a point to point
>things out to her that she could see out the window, the lake to the south,
>the houses, etc. She was doing really well. The winds shifted a bit and we
>were told after departing 29L for the second time to do a left 270 and back
>to final for runway 11R, we did a few more touch and goes. On the fourth
>pattern I looked over and it looked like she was starting to nod off. A bit
>later we had been up for just shy of an hour, I figured this was enough time
>for a first-timer and informed tower that this would be a full stop. Due to
>traffic they weren't able to get me to 11L so I'd have to land long on the
>right and wait to cross the left runway and back to the ramp. On downwind my
>little girl started throwing up. It's interesting hearing such things happen
>when there's a microphone sitting right in the path, makes for interesting
>intercom noise. One needs to understand that I'm generally a sympathetic
>vomiter, so I figured this was going to create a problem for me as well.
>Gratefully it didn't seem to affect me, I'm pretty sure it was just the fact
>that I was the sole person in the plane capable of landing it so my mind
>just blocked out what was going on just to my right. I made sure she was ok
>and tuned a short base. Was able to get the plane on the ground and back to
>the tie downs. As soon as I'd pulled the mixture the smell hit me pretty
>hard so I had to open the window and hop out of the plane for some fresh
>air. I quickly tied down the plane since it was a bit windy and grabbed some
>rags that were meant for oil checks and such but were clean and started to
>clean her up as best I could. I must say I was tempted to take her carseat
>and all over to the aircraft washing area and hose them both off, but
>figured that wouldn't look too good <grin>.
> Was able to get her home and cleaned up and when my wife asked her if
>she ever wanted to go flying with daddy again she said "Not today anymore,
>tomorrow". Hopefully she'll be willing in the future, she's still pretty
>excited that we went. Maybe with more positive experiences (it was positive
>overall at least) we can convince her mother to go with me sometime down the
>road. So all this leaves me with a couple of questions.
>
>1. Do they make anything like Dramamine for kids? If not, any suggestions? I
>know it took my awhile to get a stomach that wouldn't get queasy when
>flying.
>
>2. I was able to get the foam covering the mike on the David Clarks to clean
>it , but can I get the mike itself wet to clean it? Will it damage it in any
>way?

Sorry to hear it was a lack luster finale to what seemed to be a good
day. What I've come to adopt in flying non-pilots is the first trip
only lasts about 20 minutes to a half hour, and generally doesn't
include more than 2 landings. You have become used to many things
while flying like small bumps (which I won't even call turbulence), 30
degree bank turns, power changes in a loud environment, etc...that a
non-pilot needs to get used to over time. The fact that you are at
the controls is also an advantage you have over the non-pilot.

It took me a while to realize shorter is better (even thought I'd like
to be up there all day). Since I've adopted my "30 minute rule" I've
had more people want to take second rides, and get more enjoyment out
of the first ride. I've even got a couple people who were afraid of
flying to actually want to go again.

This is just my two cents from what I've learned so far. I hope it
helps you.

Good Luck.
z

[Louis L. Perley III]

"David Megginson" > wrote in message
. rogers.com...

> ... and engine reserve (as you've already realized), but I'm guessing
that's
> a pretty small number for you averaged out over TBO, despite the pain of
> your recent overhaul. Did you buy the plane with a runout engine, or did
it
> catch you by surprise?
>

When I bought the airplane it had the original engine with 2200 hours on
it, so I knew it was coming. I figured I'd be able to get to the 2400 hour
TBO pretty handily because the plane had never been used as a trainer, it
was used regularly by a handful of ranchers to count cattle in South Dakota
and Colorado. The engine was still running strong, and the first oil change
came out pretty clean, however the next change was completely different
(making serious metal) so I grounded the airplane. Although I knew the
overhaul was coming, I thought I was going to at least get through my
private with what the engine had left. The original idea was also to sell it
to someone who wanted to do an overhaul, and move up to a C172 for
instrument training. I never intended to keep it. According to my logbooks,
I flew ~71 hours before the engine quit, so I definitely had some use of it.
At that point I didn't want to spend the money on an overhaul because I
figured I'd need that money for a 172 and didn't see that I'd get my money
back from an overhaul and then selling directly afterwards. My first
daughter was born shortly afterwards and flying became a second-tier
activity so the plane sat there for a bit. I finally came to my senses and
realized that most of my flying would be alone and spending the money for a
new engine would still leave me better off than spending twice that much for
a clapped out 172, and I already knew the airplane. Thus began my restore of
Willie (the name was not chosen by me but by it's previous owner, it's still
on the key ring so the name stuck), put a new engine under the cowling,
added another radio with glideslope receiver/antenna and marker beacon with
audio panel. I was able to find all the pieces I needed used/yellow tagged,
so it wasn't that pricey. The radios were weak when they became warm, so I'd
have to keep one off until I needed to check ATIS, etc. I've recently added
an avionics fan and that has made a world of difference performance wise and
I can once again use both radios without problems. I'll never use it for
serious IFR, but in reality, you can't do that with a 172 either.

--
Louis L. Perley III
N46000

[Jay Honeck]

Wow, so many new things here!

> My wife will not fly with me,
> but I'm still hopeful that that day will be sooner rather than later.

This is so sad, but not uncommon. Care to elaborate on her reasons?

> but today was looking pretty decent, and I'd done 16 touch &
> goes the day before

SIXTEEN touch & goes? Wow -- I don't think I've ever done more than 8 in
one flight, even as a primary student! I'll bet you've perfected your
landings, eh?

:-)

> This time I asked my 2
> year old if she'd like to come with me today. She agreed

Is that a typo? You *asked* your 2-year old, and got a cogent answer?

My kids were flying with me at that age (they are now 10 and 13), but I
don't think we ever asked them to go...

> On downwind my
> little girl started throwing up.

This is one reason why I never fly with a small child alone. Of course,
with a 152, you're options are limited! :-)

Each of my kids has been sick in the plane once -- both when they were under
age 5. Now, with hundreds of hours apiece, they sit in back in moderate
turbulence and read Harry Potter books, with no apparent discomfort.

> One needs to understand that I'm generally a sympathetic
> vomiter

Now *there* is something I've never heard before. You puke when other
people are getting ill?

I guess I'm glad that's not a universal problem. (Imagine the headline:
"Motion-Sick Girl Infects Thousands!")

> Was able to get her home and cleaned up and when my wife asked her if
> she ever wanted to go flying with daddy again she said "Not today anymore,
> tomorrow". Hopefully she'll be willing in the future, she's still pretty
> excited that we went. Maybe with more positive experiences (it was
positive
> overall at least) we can convince her mother to go with me sometime down
the
> road.

Um, reality check here. Your little girl barfed in the cabin, and your wife
is specifically asking her if she ever wants to fly with you again? This
doesn't sound like an experience that will grease the skids toward getting
your wife to go along next time, IMHO.

> 1. Do they make anything like Dramamine for kids? If not, any suggestions?
I
> know it took my awhile to get a stomach that wouldn't get queasy when
> flying.

Skip the drugs. Fly on a calm day, in the early morning or early evening,
when the winds are light. Limit the flight to 30 minutes, limit bank angle
to standard rate, do everything extremely smoothly -- and SKIP THE TOUCH AND
GOES. Landings are only "fun" and "interesting" to pilots -- first time
passengers can be terrified by them, which contributes to their queasiness.

All most passengers really want is to see their local mall, their home, and
a pretty sunset -- and to survive the landing.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Louis L. Perley III]

> > My wife will not fly with me,
> > but I'm still hopeful that that day will be sooner rather than later.
>
> This is so sad, but not uncommon. Care to elaborate on her reasons?

My wife doesn't like the idea that she cannot just get out if she feels
uncomfortable, ie. in a car, you just pull over to the side of the road and
get out, one cannot do this in a plane. I've often thought that the only way
to get over this fear/issue is to have her learn to fly a plane, this way
she'd know exactly what is going on. She's never sat inside my C152 (too
small) and I don't thing she's that fond of a high-wing, since you're
hanging below the wing. She's been inside an Aztec and a Beech Travelair and
those she felt a bit better in, but she never actually flew. I think I'll
need a low-wing before she'll go up with me. I think a bit of claustrophobia
as well, so it would need lots of windows, or at least large ones. She's
said that the Trinidad looked like a nice airplane (because of the large
windows) but that's a bit out of the price range right now.

> > but today was looking pretty decent, and I'd done 16 touch &
> > goes the day before
>
> SIXTEEN touch & goes? Wow -- I don't think I've ever done more than 8 in
> one flight, even as a primary student! I'll bet you've perfected your
> landings, eh?

Normally I'd get pretty bored doing just touch & goes, but the winds
were quite tricky, so one landing might be with a direct crosswind, another
with a tailwind, another with a strong headwind, it was just a really
perfect way to get many different landings in, the wind was anywhere from 10
to 15 knots in any given direction, so yes, I feel real comfortable landing
the plane again. It was a good workout after not having flown for a month.

> > This time I asked my 2
> > year old if she'd like to come with me today. She agreed
>
> Is that a typo? You *asked* your 2-year old, and got a cogent answer?

Actually she's almost three, but she is quite capable verbally and does
understand most of what we tell her. Ask her a question and you'll get a
direct response that makes sense and shows understanding. I'd like to think
it comes from my side, but most likely takes after my wife.

> > One needs to understand that I'm generally a sympathetic
> > vomiter
>
> Now *there* is something I've never heard before. You puke when other
> people are getting ill?
>

Yes, it is a problem, and especially frustrating for my wife at times
when the little one is sick as I cannot help without becoming severly
nauseous myself. I know I'm not the only one as I've seen the reaction in
other people, don't know why it is or what causes it though.

> > Was able to get her home and cleaned up and when my wife asked her
if
> > she ever wanted to go flying with daddy again she said "Not today
anymore,
> > tomorrow". Hopefully she'll be willing in the future, she's still pretty
> > excited that we went. Maybe with more positive experiences (it was
> positive
> > overall at least) we can convince her mother to go with me sometime down
> the
> > road.
>
> Um, reality check here. Your little girl barfed in the cabin, and your
wife
> is specifically asking her if she ever wants to fly with you again? This
> doesn't sound like an experience that will grease the skids toward getting
> your wife to go along next time, IMHO.

Well that's just it. My wife was surprised that even after throwing up
in the plane my little girl was in really good spirits. She just didn't
beleive that she could have had a good time even after what had happened, so
I look to it as a positive, all things considered.

> Skip the drugs. Fly on a calm day, in the early morning or early evening,
> when the winds are light. Limit the flight to 30 minutes, limit bank
angle
> to standard rate, do everything extremely smoothly -- and SKIP THE TOUCH
AND
> GOES. Landings are only "fun" and "interesting" to pilots -- first time
> passengers can be terrified by them, which contributes to their
queasiness.
>
> All most passengers really want is to see their local mall, their home,
and
> a pretty sunset -- and to survive the landing.

Yes, I appreciate all the good advice that everyone has given me. I will
use it in the future as others fly with me. I guess it's good that I took my
2 year old up first, since children are so forgiving of their parents. Next
time we won't go right after lunch either :)

--
Louis L. Perley III
N46000

[Morgans]

"Louis L. Perley III" > wrote
>
> Well that's just it. My wife was surprised that even after throwing up
> in the plane my little girl was in really good spirits. She just didn't
> beleive that she could have had a good time even after what had happened,
so
> I look to it as a positive, all things considered.

> Louis L. Perley III
> N46000

I might also suggest that sleeping while in bumpy air, or landing, is
probably a bad idea. Much better to be seeing the horizon, while turning
and such, at least in my experience.

Only about 14 years, until she can solo!
--
Jim in NC


---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
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[Marc J. Zeitlin]

Morgans said:

> I might also suggest that sleeping while in bumpy air, or landing, is
> probably a bad idea. Much better to be seeing the horizon, while
turning
> and such, at least in my experience.

Boy, that's my feeling too, but my wife will fall asleep when it gets
turbulent, and the more turbulent it is, the faster she falls asleep and
the more comfortable she feels. Worries like hell about mid-air
collisions, but could fly through a hurricane. Go figure :-).

--
Marc J. Zeitlin
http://marc.zeitlin.home.comcast.net/
http://www.cozybuilders.org/
Copyright (c) 2004

[The Weiss Family]

Congrats!

I took my first non-pilot up today, too.
My first passenger was last week and was a student pilot friend of mine.

Today I took my wife for a $100 burger (BTW Hangar Cafe at O43 is awesome!).
It was perfect.
30 minutes each way. Just up and over the mountains.
She was a bit nervous to start out, but we just held a conversation
throughout the flight.
I told her everything that was going on. She even kept an eye out for
gliders for me.
There was some mild turbulence, but it didn't bother her.

She asked what the rudders did, so I showed her, and that kind of scared her
a little ;-)

I've been thinking about taking my kids, too. I have three daughters: six,
three-and-a-half, and one.
The six-year-old gets really car-sick. On long trips we give her childrens
Dramamine (yes they make it and it works well).
It doesn't really make her drowsy or anything either.
She's getting better the older she gets, so sometimes we skip the Dramamine,
but we ALWAYS bring a bag.
When she starts feeling a little sick, we give her the bag. She does pretty
well at keeping it all in the bag.

I'm pretty sure my six-year-old will get sick, but she REALLY wants to go.
Not sure what I'll do. Maybe a quick 15-minute flight.
The 3-year-old will probably do OK. Not sure what to do about the
1-year-old. That seems a little young...

Anyway, if you can get your wife to go, It's awesome. My wife said she
wouldn't fly with me when I first started.
Now, she wants to go again. She had a really good time.

Congrats again!

Adam

[Jay Honeck]

> Yes, it is a problem, and especially frustrating for my wife at times
> when the little one is sick as I cannot help without becoming severly
> nauseous myself. I know I'm not the only one as I've seen the reaction in
> other people, don't know why it is or what causes it though.

Heh, heh. Gee, I wish I had thought of that one, when my kids were little.
"Sorry, honey, but, uh, you know... "

:-)

> Well that's just it. My wife was surprised that even after throwing up
> in the plane my little girl was in really good spirits. She just didn't
> beleive that she could have had a good time even after what had happened,
so
> I look to it as a positive, all things considered.

Well, that's a good way to look at it. ("There MUST be a pony under all
this poop somewhere!" ;-)

Would she go up with a CFI? When I was finally able to afford flight
lessons, I sent my wife up in the left seat with the CFI on a "Discovery
Flight," with me in the back cheering her on. Heck, I *knew* I wanted to
fly, but I also knew that I wouldn't get very far without her support, so I
kept my fingers crossed...

She wasn't exactly hooked, but she had a good time and the instructor made
her feel like a natural. (It really helped that I had picked a wonderful
CFI, very easy going and fun to talk to...) Later, after I got my ticket,
Mary realized that she would be helpless if I had a stroke or a heart-attack
while flying -- so we enrolled her in a "Pinch-Hitter" course that
concentrated solely on landing the plane safely.

Once she got the hang of that (and after flying with me for a couple of
hundred hours) she realized that she was having fun, and went on to get her
Private. We now split time 50/50, and have happily spent the last decade
flying the kids from one end of the country to the other. (We've since
REALLY gone off the deep end, and started an aviation theme luxury suites
hotel, just so we could spend all of our time at the airport -- but that's
another story...)

It *can* be done -- but your row looks pretty tough to hoe from here.
Personally, I'd send her up with a CFI and let her take the controls for an
hour or two. I'll bet she feels differently after that.

Good luck!
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Cub Driver]

>> This time I asked my 2
>> year old if she'd like to come with me today. She agreed
>
>Is that a typo? You *asked* your 2-year old, and got a cogent answer?

My granddaughter is three. When I ask her if she wants to go to the
airport, she says: "I'd LOVE to!"

(Of course, what she really loves about the airport is the toy box and
the Belgian waffles, but that doesn't lessen the cogency of her answer
:)

all the best -- Dan Ford
email: (put Cubdriver in subject line)

The Warbird's Forum www.warbirdforum.com
The Piper Cub Forum www.pipercubforum.com

[Cub Driver]

> I've often thought that the only way
>to get over this fear/issue is to have her learn to fly a plane, this way
>she'd know exactly what is going on.

I have a friend who is an attorney and lives in Ohio. He would like to
travel more but is afraid of flying. (When he comes to visit his
father locally, he drives ten hours.) He decided that if he learned to
fly, the fear would go away. So he learned to fly (I don't think he
actually got his license). But he still can't bring himself to get in
a passenger plane.

all the best -- Dan Ford
email: (put Cubdriver in subject line)

The Warbird's Forum www.warbirdforum.com
The Piper Cub Forum www.pipercubforum.com

[Teacherjh]

>>
So he learned to fly (I don't think he
actually got his license). But he still
can't bring himself to get in
a passenger plane.
<<

Airliners aren't airplanes. They are aparatment buildings with wings on them.

Jose


--
(for Email, make the obvious changes in my address)

[Louis L. Perley III]

>
> Airliners aren't airplanes. They are aparatment buildings with wings on
them.
>
> Jose

I wouldn't even go so far as calling them apartment buildings, since at
least an apartment (even a studio) has some room. There is a reason one
large manufacturer calls itself Airbus and Boeing is just the sound your
back makes after extracting yourself from a coach seat on a 737 (although I
must admit I do like the 777 much better).

--
Louis L. Perley III
N46000

[Chris Ehlbeck]

My wife is the opposite. She'd much rather fly in a high wing than a low.
She sat in an Archer once, and although she liked the roomier cockpit she
didn't like the wing being in the way of looking down at the ground. But,
she wasn't comfortable with the size of a C152 cockpit either, but said
she'd give it try.
--
Chris Ehlbeck, PPASEL
"It's a license to learn."

"Louis L. Perley III" > wrote in message
...
> > > My wife will not fly with me,
> > > but I'm still hopeful that that day will be sooner rather than later.
> >
> > This is so sad, but not uncommon. Care to elaborate on her reasons?
>
> My wife doesn't like the idea that she cannot just get out if she
feels
> uncomfortable, ie. in a car, you just pull over to the side of the road
and
> get out, one cannot do this in a plane. I've often thought that the only
way
> to get over this fear/issue is to have her learn to fly a plane, this way
> she'd know exactly what is going on. She's never sat inside my C152 (too
> small) and I don't thing she's that fond of a high-wing, since you're
> hanging below the wing. She's been inside an Aztec and a Beech Travelair
and
> those she felt a bit better in, but she never actually flew. I think I'll
> need a low-wing before she'll go up with me. I think a bit of
claustrophobia
> as well, so it would need lots of windows, or at least large ones. She's
> said that the Trinidad looked like a nice airplane (because of the large
> windows) but that's a bit out of the price range right now.

[Cub Driver]

On Sun, 30 May 2004 12:40:06 -0400, "Chris Ehlbeck"
> wrote:

>She'd much rather fly in a high wing than a low.

Very sensible of her. She knows that it's much safer being suspended
from a beam than balancing on top of it.

all the best -- Dan Ford
email: (put Cubdriver in subject line)

The Warbird's Forum www.warbirdforum.com
The Piper Cub Forum www.pipercubforum.com

[Richard Kaplan]

"Louis L. Perley III" > wrote in message
...

Next time you might try just one takeoff and landing and lots of straight
and level in between except to circle around and let her see your house or
playground or other landmarks to interest her.

The odds of getting motion sickness are likely reduced as well if you can
negotiate a long straight-in landing rather than a standard traffic pattern.


--------------------
Richard Kaplan, CFII, M.D, AME

www.flyimc.com

[Helix]

You might sign her up for an AOPA Pinch Hitter Course
if you can find an instructor to teach her.

You can get the course materials from AOPA.

This is a start on a pilot license and will give her a feeling
of control if something untoward happens.

The full course is 4 hours flying and 4 hours ground
during which time she learns to tune the radios, call for
help from Flight Service/ATC, keep the plane right
side up, read the maps and hold a heading and make
an approach and a landing.

When AOPA was having their clinics, it was a very
popular course among wives and the comments I received
was that it made them better flying companions.

Fred Quarles,
"Chris Ehlbeck" > wrote in message
.. .
> My wife is the opposite. She'd much rather fly in a high wing than a low.
> She sat in an Archer once, and although she liked the roomier cockpit she
> didn't like the wing being in the way of looking down at the ground. But,
> she wasn't comfortable with the size of a C152 cockpit either, but said
> she'd give it try.
> --
> Chris Ehlbeck, PPASEL
> "It's a license to learn."
>
> "Louis L. Perley III" > wrote in message
> ...
> > > > My wife will not fly with me,
> > > > but I'm still hopeful that that day will be sooner rather than
later.
> > >
> > > This is so sad, but not uncommon. Care to elaborate on her reasons?
> >
> > My wife doesn't like the idea that she cannot just get out if she
> feels
> > uncomfortable, ie. in a car, you just pull over to the side of the road
> and
> > get out, one cannot do this in a plane. I've often thought that the only
> way
> > to get over this fear/issue is to have her learn to fly a plane, this
way
> > she'd know exactly what is going on. She's never sat inside my C152 (too
> > small) and I don't thing she's that fond of a high-wing, since you're
> > hanging below the wing. She's been inside an Aztec and a Beech Travelair
> and
> > those she felt a bit better in, but she never actually flew. I think
I'll
> > need a low-wing before she'll go up with me. I think a bit of
> claustrophobia
> > as well, so it would need lots of windows, or at least large ones. She's
> > said that the Trinidad looked like a nice airplane (because of the large
> > windows) but that's a bit out of the price range right now.
>
>

[Chris Ehlbeck]

We're a step ahead. She has already considered taking the Pinch Hitter
course. The last time it was here there was a scheduling conflict. While
she says one pilot is enough, she is interested in doing more like tuning
the radios, etc and will probably order the video and material for at least
that!
--
Chris Ehlbeck, PPASEL
"It's a license to learn."

"Helix" > wrote in message
.net...
> You might sign her up for an AOPA Pinch Hitter Course
> if you can find an instructor to teach her.
>
> You can get the course materials from AOPA.
>
> This is a start on a pilot license and will give her a feeling
> of control if something untoward happens.
>
> The full course is 4 hours flying and 4 hours ground
> during which time she learns to tune the radios, call for
> help from Flight Service/ATC, keep the plane right
> side up, read the maps and hold a heading and make
> an approach and a landing.
>
> When AOPA was having their clinics, it was a very
> popular course among wives and the comments I received
> was that it made them better flying companions.
>
> Fred Quarles,
> "Chris Ehlbeck" > wrote in message
> .. .
> > My wife is the opposite. She'd much rather fly in a high wing than a
low.
> > She sat in an Archer once, and although she liked the roomier cockpit
she
> > didn't like the wing being in the way of looking down at the ground.
But,
> > she wasn't comfortable with the size of a C152 cockpit either, but said
> > she'd give it try.
> > --
> > Chris Ehlbeck, PPASEL
> > "It's a license to learn."
> >
> > "Louis L. Perley III" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > > > > My wife will not fly with me,
> > > > > but I'm still hopeful that that day will be sooner rather than
> later.
> > > >
> > > > This is so sad, but not uncommon. Care to elaborate on her reasons?
> > >
> > > My wife doesn't like the idea that she cannot just get out if she
> > feels
> > > uncomfortable, ie. in a car, you just pull over to the side of the
road
> > and
> > > get out, one cannot do this in a plane. I've often thought that the
only
> > way
> > > to get over this fear/issue is to have her learn to fly a plane, this
> way
> > > she'd know exactly what is going on. She's never sat inside my C152
(too
> > > small) and I don't thing she's that fond of a high-wing, since you're
> > > hanging below the wing. She's been inside an Aztec and a Beech
Travelair
> > and
> > > those she felt a bit better in, but she never actually flew. I think
> I'll
> > > need a low-wing before she'll go up with me. I think a bit of
> > claustrophobia
> > > as well, so it would need lots of windows, or at least large ones.
She's
> > > said that the Trinidad looked like a nice airplane (because of the
large
> > > windows) but that's a bit out of the price range right now.
> >
> >
>
>