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EDR
June 10th 04, 02:28 PM
Electronic warfare effects flight safety - Beware in Ontario and Quebec
in June!

While preparing for a trip from Ottawa recently, COPA staff member Adam
Hunt noticed the following NOTAM in the Flight Information Region
section of the NOTAMs:

040305 CZUL MONTREAL FIR
CZUL GPS JAMMING EXERCISES MAY RESULT IN INTERMITTENT LOSS OF GPS
SIGNALS IN VICINITY OF 4539.8N 7736.2W (YXI VOR) FROM 350 RADIAL
CLOCKWISE TO 090 RADIAL. AFFECTED AREA EXTENDS TO 100 NM BELOW
3000 FT MSL, AND UP TO 250 NM ABOVE 3000 FT MSL. GPS APCH NOT
AUTH AT PEMBROKE (CYTA), MANIWAKI (CYMW) AND MONT-LAURIER (CSD4)
DURING EXERCISE PERIODS 1400-1900 DAILY 0406091400/0406111900
AND 1400-1900 DAILY
0406141400 TIL 0406151900

Given the proximity of the jamming to some of the busiest flying areas
in Canada and the potential for the directional jamming to go beyond
the intended direction, COPA President Kevin Psutka contacted key
individuals at the Department of National Defence (DND), Transport
Canada and NAV CANADA and also made our sister organization, AOPA US,
aware of our concerns.

In a strongly worded message to the agencies, COPA emphasized that
there is a flight safety trap being created by this exercise, most
notably that they intend to proceed with the exercise even if the
weather is IFR, when potentially someone will use GPS as the primary
means of navigation. We pointed out the FIR NOTAMs are more obscure and
sometimes difficult to decipher.*It is very likely that, despite the
length of time that the NOTAM will have been in effect by the time the
jamming exercise takes place, there will be a significant number of
pilots in Canada using GPS during the period that the jamming will
occur who will not be aware that jamming is occurring.

From the location information in the NOTAM, it is not clear where the
jamming will be coming from, so DND was contacted for more information.
It will in fact come from Canadian Forces Base Petawawa, north-west of
Ottawa. Besides the obvious question regarding the need to actually jam
versus simulate jamming, COPA questioned why the goals of the exercise
cannot be achieved by performing it in a remote area of the country.
The response from DND was that it is most convenient and cost-effective
to conduct the exercise, which is an evaluation of several competing
hand-held GPSs for an upcoming purchase of 10,000 units.

COPA stated in the strongest possible terms that we are opposed to the
deliberate jamming of the GPS signal over such a large area and in a
location that will affect some of the busiest airspace in North
America. Even though the affected area is supposed to be an arc to the
north and east (a sparsely settled area), our understanding of GPS
signal propagation, including the weak power of the satellite signal,
leads us to believe that there is a significant potential for
interference* beyond the arc stated in the NOTAM. The reasons for the
exercise cannot possibly justify placing a large number of lives in
jeopardy. We illustrated the extent of the impact with some statistics.

About a year ago we surveyed our membership regarding their use of GPS.
We found that 68% had either a panel-mounted or handheld GPS and that
30% of those who did not have a GPS were planning to do so in the next
year. This survey was examined against the Transport Canada pilot
statistics in key areas and it was determined that the statistics from
our survey are representative of the pilot population as a whole. So,*a
conservative estimate of the percentage of Canadian pilots using GPS
now is 75%. The NOTAM states that jamming will occur as far as 250nm.
With our concerns that the jamming signal could go beyond its intended
arc to the north and east, this encompasses western Quebec as far as
Quebec City and Montreal, portions of the States of Vermont, New York
and Pennsylvania and most of southern Ontario including London,
Toronto, Kingston, Ottawa, North Bay and Sudbury.

The vast majority of pilots and aircraft in Ontario and Quebec are
located in the effected area. According to Transport Canada statistics,
of the 65,000 licences and permits in force in Canada, 38,000 are in
Quebec and Ontario. Given our survey results, there are 28,500 people
in the affected area in Canada who use GPS and could miss the NOTAM and
mistakenly follow a jammed GPS signal.*We could not estimate the number
of pilots affected south of the border, but*given the concentration of
pilots in the north east of the US, it*is easily tens times this
number.

The civil aircraft register web site was not available at the time that
this message was developed but we know from our past studies that the
number of aircraft closely parallels the distribution of pilots. So, of
the 29,000 aircraft in Canada, there are approximately 12,700 aircraft
equipped with a handheld or panel-mounted GPS in the affected area in
Canada alone.

Of course, the majority of the pilots mentioned above are not
instrument rated and we appreciate that GPS is supposed to be an
aid*rather than a primary means of navigation for VFR flight. However,
if there is any way that deliberate jamming can be prevented or at
least minimized, the safety of these users will not be degraded. The
more critical issue is the many*GPS instrument approaches in the
affected area.*We did not page through the approach publications but
there must be at least 100 GPS overlay or stand-alone approaches in
Ontario and Quebec plus many more than that south of the border.
When*approach aids are deliberately taken off the air for maintenance,
this is virtually always done only during periods of VFR conditions and
the NOTAMs state this provision. We saw no indication of this provision
in the above NOTAM and it was confirmed by DND that they will proceed
regardless of weather. This is a critical safety of flight issue.
While*we appreciate that pilots are supposed to check NOTAMs before
every flight, it is not acceptable to deliberately*produce a link in an
accident chain. Safeguards such as not performing the exercise during
IFR conditions would help prevent the chain from forming.

The critical question that should be considered by DND, Transport
Canada and NAV CANADA is why this exercise must be performed in the
most heavily populated area of Canada during a time of the year when
aviation activity is approaching its peak? We appreciate National
security requirements but it simply must be possible to achieve their
goals in a more remote area of Canada. DND disagrees, and stated that
very careful consideration was given to the safety issues. In fact,
Industry Canada, who manages the frequency spectrum, delayed the
exercise while it sought further data from DND.

COPA strongly urged the three agencies to meet as soon as possible with
a goal to stopping the exercise in the interest of flight safety. We
offered to cooperate with them in selecting a more suitable location
and also helping to get the word out to our members. We attempted to
delay, particularly because it is now too late now for us to reach our
members in our newspaper if the planned exercise proceeds because our
June newspaper just went to press. This leaves our web site and a
newsflash to COPA Flights as the only vehicle, plus of course hoping
that pilots diligently check all NOTAMs before they fly.

As of the date of this article, discussions with the three agencies did
not convince them to change their plans. So, please be aware of the
jamming that will occur on 9, 10, 11, 14 and 15 June from 1400Z to
1900Z. Do not conduct GPS approaches at the three airports and we
strongly recommend alternate means of navigation within 250nm of the
Killaloe VOR (YXI) on those days.

The issue of GPS signal jamming has been added to the agenda of the
next Air Navigation Services National Advisory Council meeting so that
solutions can be found for a safer way to perform these types of
exercises and notify affected people.

Martin Hotze
June 10th 04, 03:01 PM
On Thu, 10 Jun 2004 13:28:42 GMT, EDR wrote:

>In a strongly worded message to the agencies, COPA emphasized that
>there is a flight safety trap being created by this exercise, most
>notably that they intend to proceed with the exercise even if the
>weather is IFR, when potentially someone will use GPS as the primary
>means of navigation.

the GPS system is owned by the US DOD. What do you expect? It is their
system and they do with it whatever they please.
I never understood how someone is freely willing to use a military device
for business purpose.
This is one reason why Europe will launch their own satellites. (hopefully
they get rid of the US influence on building the system! I don't feel save
knowing the US military might misuse our system.)

#m

--
Martin!!! Maaaaartiiiin!!! Can you please flame this guy for me?
'HECTOP' in rec.aviation.piloting

John T
June 10th 04, 05:14 PM
Martin Hotze wrote:
>
> the GPS system is owned by the US DOD. What do you expect? It is their
> system and they do with it whatever they please.

That may be true, but what does that have to do with Canada jamming the US
signal?

--
John T
http://tknowlogy.com/TknoFlyer
http://pocketgear.com/products_search.asp?developerid=4415
____________________

C J Campbell
June 10th 04, 05:21 PM
"Martin Hotze" > wrote in message
...
> On Thu, 10 Jun 2004 13:28:42 GMT, EDR wrote:
>
> >In a strongly worded message to the agencies, COPA emphasized that
> >there is a flight safety trap being created by this exercise, most
> >notably that they intend to proceed with the exercise even if the
> >weather is IFR, when potentially someone will use GPS as the primary
> >means of navigation.
>
> the GPS system is owned by the US DOD. What do you expect? It is their
> system and they do with it whatever they please.
> I never understood how someone is freely willing to use a military device
> for business purpose.
> This is one reason why Europe will launch their own satellites. (hopefully
> they get rid of the US influence on building the system! I don't feel save
> knowing the US military might misuse our system.)

This is the sort of malicious sniping, innuendo, and outright lies that have
so lowered Americans' opinions of Europeans.

Martin Hotze
June 10th 04, 06:14 PM
On Thu, 10 Jun 2004 16:14:45 GMT, John T wrote:

>> the GPS system is owned by the US DOD. What do you expect? It is their
>> system and they do with it whatever they please.
>
>That may be true, but what does that have to do with Canada jamming the US
>signal?

Joint forcs? NATO? any other treaties? no idea.
maybe it is not hte Canadians who jam the signal .. no idea.

#m

--
Martin!!! Maaaaartiiiin!!! Can you please flame this guy for me?
'HECTOP' in rec.aviation.piloting

Martin Hotze
June 10th 04, 06:24 PM
On Thu, 10 Jun 2004 09:21:14 -0700, C J Campbell wrote:

>> the GPS system is owned by the US DOD. What do you expect? It is their
>> system and they do with it whatever they please.
>> I never understood how someone is freely willing to use a military device
>> for business purpose.
>> This is one reason why Europe will launch their own satellites. (hopefully
>> they get rid of the US influence on building the system! I don't feel save
>> knowing the US military might misuse our system.)
>
>This is the sort of malicious sniping, innuendo, and outright lies that have
>so lowered Americans' opinions of Europeans.

this has nothing to do with what opinion someone has on somebody else.
besides, there was no lie. And it is the good right of the owner of the GPS
system (the US military) to stop offering the GPS signal to the general
public (except there are treaties, no idea).
the GPS signal is only as accurate as *one* (!) nation's military seems
appropriate to set it. It doesn't matter if this is the USA or Russia or
Australia or Japan or China or ... (pick your country).
My point is: I won't rely on such a system that solely relies on the will
of one nation's military. And as there are upcoming needs (AFAIK) for
commercial services the ESA/European Union has decided to deploy their own
system. The US military is strongly interested in working within this
project for one single reason ...


#m

Besides, if you are in the opinion that the opinion on Americans have so
much lowered .... hmmm ... there must be a little truth to it ... but how
does it come to such a change in opinion? don't always search for errors
and mistakes on somebody else.

--
Martin!!! Maaaaartiiiin!!! Can you please flame this guy for me?
'HECTOP' in rec.aviation.piloting

kage
June 10th 04, 06:32 PM
********"My point is: I won't rely on such a system that solely relies on
the will
of one nation's military."*******

You already rely on the US military for all the freedoms you now enjoy.


Karl

G.R. Patterson III
June 10th 04, 06:42 PM
kage wrote:
>
> You already rely on the US military for all the freedoms you now enjoy.

How, pray tell, does an Austrian rely on the U.S. military for his freedoms?

George Patterson
None of us is as dumb as all of us.

Martin Hotze
June 10th 04, 06:46 PM
On Thu, 10 Jun 2004 10:32:54 -0700, kage wrote:

>********"My point is: I won't rely on such a system that solely relies on
>the will
>of one nation's military."*******
>
>You already rely on the US military for all the freedoms you now enjoy.

(For sure one can discuss your statement, but I won't do it, it only brings
up the same boring arguments.)

And the price for that is a free ticket for the US to do what they please?
No thank you.

>Karl

#m
--
Martin!!! Maaaaartiiiin!!! Can you please flame this guy for me?
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Peter Duniho
June 10th 04, 06:55 PM
"C J Campbell" > wrote in message
...
>
> This is the sort of malicious sniping, innuendo, and outright lies that
have
> so lowered Americans' opinions of Europeans.

Nah...it's just lowered our opinion of Martin. I can't believe the rest of
Europe is filled with such bigoted idiots, though I'm sure Martin's not the
only one.

Most of what Martin posts to this newsgroup is stupid "I hate America" crap.
I don't know why anyone is still reading him.

Martin Hotze
June 10th 04, 07:00 PM
On Thu, 10 Jun 2004 17:42:19 GMT, G.R. Patterson III wrote:

>> You already rely on the US military for all the freedoms you now enjoy.
>
>How, pray tell, does an Austrian rely on the U.S. military for his freedoms?


He sure meant the liberation from nazi-germany during WWII. and we and at
least the next 10 generations have to feel guilty and thankful at the same
time.

>George Patterson

#m

--
Martin!!! Maaaaartiiiin!!! Can you please flame this guy for me?
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John T
June 10th 04, 08:05 PM
Martin Hotze wrote:
>
> Joint forcs? NATO? any other treaties? no idea.
> maybe it is not hte Canadians who jam the signal .. no idea.

The Canadians are evaluating GPS devices for handling signal
interference/degradation/jamming. They will be jamming the signal in a
relatively limited area. The US isn't the one turning off the signal to
their country. This was apparent (at least to anybody with a modicum of
reading comprehension) from the very beginning of the COPA article.

The US isn't violating any treaties here and are continuing to provide the
GPS signal. You can snidely comment on their motives all you want, but the
fact remains that the US has borne the price of the GPS system entirely on
their own and make the signal available to the rest of the world in an
effort to avoid another catastrophe like KAL007.

Yet another reason to hate America (or at least deride them), I suppose.

--
John T
http://tknowlogy.com/TknoFlyer
http://pocketgear.com/products_search.asp?developerid=4415
____________________

Martin Hotze
June 10th 04, 09:29 PM
On Thu, 10 Jun 2004 19:05:34 GMT, John T wrote:

>Martin Hotze wrote:
>>
>> Joint forcs? NATO? any other treaties? no idea.
>> maybe it is not hte Canadians who jam the signal .. no idea.
>
>The Canadians are evaluating GPS devices for handling signal
>interference/degradation/jamming. They will be jamming the signal in a
>relatively limited area. The US isn't the one turning off the signal to
>their country. This was apparent (at least to anybody with a modicum of
>reading comprehension) from the very beginning of the COPA article.
>
>The US isn't violating any treaties here and are continuing to provide the
>GPS signal.

oh. sorry. there must be lost something in translation. *methinks* .. hm.
OK, AFAIR the question came up to: "but the Canadians/CAN airspace has a
small portion of airspace with jammed GPS signal" and I answered and meant:
maybe the CAN armed forces and US forces teamed up for a joined training,
or maybe there are treaties to help each other out (CAN<-->US).

> You can snidely comment on their motives all you want, but the
>fact remains that the US has borne the price of the GPS system entirely on
>their own and make the signal available to the rest of the world in an

I don't blame anybody. I only stated that the system is a US (military)
system and that I won't use it for business use where I have to rely on the
availability. I haven't said anything else. Anything else is only your
interpretation.

>effort to avoid another catastrophe like KAL007.
>
>Yet another reason to hate America (or at least deride them), I suppose.

why?

#m

--
Martin!!! Maaaaartiiiin!!! Can you please flame this guy for me?
'HECTOP' in rec.aviation.piloting

Martin Hotze
June 10th 04, 09:35 PM
On Thu, 10 Jun 2004 10:55:34 -0700, Peter Duniho wrote:

>> This is the sort of malicious sniping, innuendo, and outright lies that
>> have so lowered Americans' opinions of Europeans.
>
>Nah...it's just lowered our opinion of Martin.
^^^

Oh, finally somebody who comes up as a speaker for more than himself. :-)

> I can't believe the rest of
>Europe is filled with such bigoted idiots, though I'm sure Martin's not the
>only one.

IMHO (speaking of the USofA) I'm one of the ones who can keep the land, the
general public and politics separate. There are many others, but less than
there are in your country with your mindset.

>Most of what Martin posts to this newsgroup is stupid "I hate America" crap.

*Whow* ... how impressing. how stupid, and how wrong. :-)

>I don't know why anyone is still reading him.

you know, the free world.

#m

--
Martin!!! Maaaaartiiiin!!! Can you please flame this guy for me?
'HECTOP' in rec.aviation.piloting

John T
June 10th 04, 10:11 PM
Martin Hotze wrote:
>
> oh. sorry. there must be lost something in translation.

Yes, I think so. The original post quoted a COPA article talking about
Canada's Department of National Defence conducting GPS jamming exercises
near Ottawa (in Canada). You replied with:
"the GPS system is owned by the US DOD. What do you expect? It is their
system and they do with it whatever they please."

What does Canada's jamming of a US-provided signal have to do with the GPS
system being owned by the US? Why would the US even be involved? Hell,
Austria could jam the signal if they wanted to. You brought up the US is
"doing what they please" as if they had some sort of involvement in Canada's
jamming exercise.

You were wrong.

> I don't blame anybody. I only stated that the system is a US
> (military) system and that I won't use it for business use where I
> have to rely on the availability. I haven't said anything else.
> Anything else is only your interpretation.

I'm sure that's all you meant. What about recreational purposes? Is *all*
of your flying for business purposes? Do you *never* use GPS?

Forget it. I don't really care. Wait for the European system. Meanwhile,
I'll be over here using the system to help me get where I'm going
efficiently and to help rescuers find me if I were to ever crash.

--
John T
http://tknowlogy.com/TknoFlyer
http://pocketgear.com/products_search.asp?developerid=4415
____________________

G.R. Patterson III
June 10th 04, 10:34 PM
Martin Hotze wrote:
>
> On Thu, 10 Jun 2004 17:42:19 GMT, G.R. Patterson III wrote:
>
> >> You already rely on the US military for all the freedoms you now enjoy.
> >
> >How, pray tell, does an Austrian rely on the U.S. military for his freedoms?
>
> He sure meant the liberation from nazi-germany during WWII.

Oh, I see. So, since my father had the job of carrying a BAR through your fair
country nearly 60 years ago, you owe me something?

I like that logic a lot. Papa spent the rest of his life working for Union Carbide
and Martin Marietta at Oak Ridge. They must owe me a bunch!!

George Patterson
None of us is as dumb as all of us.

G.R. Patterson III
June 10th 04, 10:41 PM
Martin Hotze wrote:
>
> This is one reason why Europe will launch their own satellites.

What happened to GLONAS? Might be cheaper to pay the Russians to rejuvenate that.

George Patterson
None of us is as dumb as all of us.

S Green
June 10th 04, 11:21 PM
"John T" > wrote in message
ws.com...
> Martin Hotze wrote:
> >
> > Joint forcs? NATO? any other treaties? no idea.
> > maybe it is not hte Canadians who jam the signal .. no idea.
>
> The Canadians are evaluating GPS devices for handling signal
> interference/degradation/jamming. They will be jamming the signal in a
> relatively limited area. The US isn't the one turning off the signal to
> their country. This was apparent (at least to anybody with a modicum of
> reading comprehension) from the very beginning of the COPA article.
>
> The US isn't violating any treaties here and are continuing to provide the
> GPS signal. You can snidely comment on their motives all you want, but
the
> fact remains that the US has borne the price of the GPS system entirely on
> their own and make the signal available to the rest of the world in an
> effort to avoid another catastrophe like KAL007.
>
Bull**** - It is difficult to stop making the signal available to the rest
of the world, but doing so is a good reminder of how accurate the US can
target its missiles when it wants to bomb someone.

John T
June 11th 04, 03:46 AM
"S Green" > wrote in message

>
> Bull**** - It is difficult to stop making the signal available to the
> rest of the world

Bull**** yourself, bud. All it takes is turning off the civilian signal.
In response to the KAL007 downing in 1983, Reagan ensured that the civilian
signal would be providied gratis, but the signal was still degraded until
1996 when Clinton directed that the degradation be eliminated. Also, the
civilian signal is a separate signal from the one used by the military.

http://tinyurl.com/2va88

On providing the service for free:
"The more we looked at it, the more convinced we became that by providing
the signal free of direct user fees we would encourage technological
development and industrial growth. The benefits from that, the new jobs
created, and the increased safety and efficiency for services more than
outweighed the money we would get from charging – especially when you
consider the additional bureaucracy that would be needed to manage cost
recovery. "

http://www.southcentre.org/info/southbulletin/bulletin62/bulletin62-11.htm

--
John T
http://tknowlogy.com/TknoFlyer
http://www.pocketgear.com/products_search.asp?developerid=4415
____________________

John T
June 11th 04, 12:34 PM
"Martin Hotze" > wrote in message

>
> and the signal is jammed for say 5 meters over central Europe?

Just admit that you have no clue how the system works and stop putting your
foot in your mouth.

--
John T
http://tknowlogy.com/TknoFlyer
http://www.pocketgear.com/products_search.asp?developerid=4415
____________________

Paul Sengupta
June 16th 04, 12:03 PM
"G.R. Patterson III" > wrote in message
...
>
> Martin Hotze wrote:
> >
> > This is one reason why Europe will launch their own satellites.
>
> What happened to GLONAS? Might be cheaper to pay the Russians to
rejuvenate that.

I was going to ask that. I've never even seen a GLONASS receiver. It's still
out there though with fairly recent launches.

There were supposed to be super-accurate receivers on the market which
used both GLONASS and GPS as each system has different inaccuracies.

But the problem still remains. You can be reliant on GPS or on GLONASS
or on both, but you're still reliant on one or two foreign governments.

Paul

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