Charging for Wings safety seminar?

[Marty Shapiro]

I local flying club advertised a Wings safety seminar for which they
would charge $30. This was done in an message to a distribution list for
local area pilots. Interestingly, if one went to the FAASafety.gov web
pages and noticed this seminar, there was no mention of a charge, and one
could sign up for the seminar directly from the FAASafety web page.

I've been attending wings safety seminars for over 10 years and this
is the first one I've seen which asked attendees to pay. Many seminars in
fact went out of their way to encourage attendance by offering free
refreshments and/or door prizes, including one which featured John &
Martha King.

I have two questions:

1) Is it now FAA policy to charge for Wings safety seminars, and, if
so, could this tend to discurage pilots from attending and/or participation
in the Wings program?

2) Do other clubs and/or areas have charges for Wings safety
seminars?

--
Marty Shapiro
Silicon Rallye Inc.

(remove SPAMNOT to email me)

[Brian C.]

I attended one on 6/14 without charge, so its not FAA policy. This is the
first I've heard of someone charging for the ground seminar for WINGS
credit.


"Marty Shapiro" > wrote in message
...
> I local flying club advertised a Wings safety seminar for which they
> would charge $30. This was done in an message to a distribution list for
> local area pilots. Interestingly, if one went to the FAASafety.gov web
> pages and noticed this seminar, there was no mention of a charge, and one
> could sign up for the seminar directly from the FAASafety web page.
>
> I've been attending wings safety seminars for over 10 years and this
> is the first one I've seen which asked attendees to pay. Many seminars in
> fact went out of their way to encourage attendance by offering free
> refreshments and/or door prizes, including one which featured John &
> Martha King.
>
> I have two questions:
>
> 1) Is it now FAA policy to charge for Wings safety seminars, and, if
> so, could this tend to discurage pilots from attending and/or
participation
> in the Wings program?
>
> 2) Do other clubs and/or areas have charges for Wings safety
> seminars?
>
> --
> Marty Shapiro
> Silicon Rallye Inc.
>
> (remove SPAMNOT to email me)

[[email protected]]

Brian C. > wrote:
> I attended one on 6/14 without charge, so its not FAA policy. This is the
> first I've heard of someone charging for the ground seminar for WINGS
> credit.

We just held our mountain flying ground school for Colorado Pilots
Assocation. We charge $145 for the course and materials.
Oh, by the way, we also give away an FAA Wings card, because
the instructors are FAA Aviation Safety counselors.

It costs to put on a seminar. It costs for materials duplication, the
room, refreshments.. This is the only fund raiser for Colorado Pilots
Assocation.

It is unfortunate that the FAA web site failed to note that there
was a charge for the seminar you attended. However, I suspect
that the FAA did not host nor put on the seminar. Someone has
to rent the room, schedule the insructors, plan the program,
et.al.

Most of the safety seminars (Wings Programs) I do are gratis,
no charge, and I get handouts from FAA, and the duplication
costs (that I pay) are usually less than $50. Why do I do it?
TO get students! This is my loss-leader to suggest that people
should come and fly with me.

Best regards,

Jer/ "Flight instruction and mountain flying are my vocation!" Eberhard

--
Jer/ (Slash) Eberhard, Mountain Flying Aviation, LTD, Ft Collins, CO
CELL 970 231-6325 EMAIL jer'at'frii.com WEB http://users.frii.com/jer/
C-206 N9513G, CFII Airplane&Glider, FAA-DEN Aviation Safety Counselor
CAP-CO Mission&Aircraft CheckPilot, BM218 HAM N0FZD, 203 Young Eagles!

[NW_PILOT]

King schools charge for the airport signs and marking cd witch is produced
in cooperation with the faa and at the end of the cd course they give you a
seminar certificate.



"Brian C." > wrote in message
...
> I attended one on 6/14 without charge, so its not FAA policy. This is the
> first I've heard of someone charging for the ground seminar for WINGS
> credit.
>
>
> "Marty Shapiro" > wrote in message
> ...
> > I local flying club advertised a Wings safety seminar for which they
> > would charge $30. This was done in an message to a distribution list
for
> > local area pilots. Interestingly, if one went to the FAASafety.gov web
> > pages and noticed this seminar, there was no mention of a charge, and
one
> > could sign up for the seminar directly from the FAASafety web page.
> >
> > I've been attending wings safety seminars for over 10 years and this
> > is the first one I've seen which asked attendees to pay. Many seminars
in
> > fact went out of their way to encourage attendance by offering free
> > refreshments and/or door prizes, including one which featured John &
> > Martha King.
> >
> > I have two questions:
> >
> > 1) Is it now FAA policy to charge for Wings safety seminars, and, if
> > so, could this tend to discurage pilots from attending and/or
> participation
> > in the Wings program?
> >
> > 2) Do other clubs and/or areas have charges for Wings safety
> > seminars?
> >
> > --
> > Marty Shapiro
> > Silicon Rallye Inc.
> >
> > (remove SPAMNOT to email me)
>
>

[Marty Shapiro]

wrote in :

> Brian C. > wrote:
>> I attended one on 6/14 without charge, so its not FAA policy. This
>> is the first I've heard of someone charging for the ground seminar
>> for WINGS credit.
>
> We just held our mountain flying ground school for Colorado Pilots
> Assocation. We charge $145 for the course and materials.
> Oh, by the way, we also give away an FAA Wings card, because
> the instructors are FAA Aviation Safety counselors.
>
> It costs to put on a seminar. It costs for materials duplication, the
> room, refreshments.. This is the only fund raiser for Colorado Pilots
> Assocation.
>
> It is unfortunate that the FAA web site failed to note that there
> was a charge for the seminar you attended. However, I suspect
> that the FAA did not host nor put on the seminar. Someone has
> to rent the room, schedule the insructors, plan the program,
> et.al.
>
> Most of the safety seminars (Wings Programs) I do are gratis,
> no charge, and I get handouts from FAA, and the duplication
> costs (that I pay) are usually less than $50. Why do I do it?
> TO get students! This is my loss-leader to suggest that people
> should come and fly with me.
>
> Best regards,
>
> Jer/ "Flight instruction and mountain flying are my vocation!"
> Eberhard
>

Jer -

What you and the Colorodo Pilots Association are doing is different
from what I was referring to, and I completely agree with there being a fee
for your ground school. You are selling a mountain flying ground school,
which, as a bonus, also qualifies as a Wings safety seminar. You are NOT
selling a Wings safety seminar.

I did not attend the Wings safety seminar I was referring to, as I
had been to the same seminar several times in the past 10 years at various
flying clubs. This was NOT an all day course, but a typical 2 hour Wings
safety seminar provided in the flying club's facility. Another flying club
in the area had a Wings safety seminar on the same topic on the same day
and did not charge for it!

The typical Wings seminars I've attended are two hours, given in the
classrooms of local flying clubs, and scheduled not to interfere with their
regular classes. On some occaisons, a local company or agency (Sony and
NASA for example) donate the use of their auditorium, as was done by NASA
for the seminar with John and Martha King. None of these seminars ever had
a charge. There have even been all day Wings seminars, advertised as Wings
seminars at the local convention center for which there was no charge.

My point is that if you are advertising a class, then yes, I would
expect a charge. If this class also counts as a Wings safety seminar,
that's a bonus. If you are advertising a Wings safety seminar, I do not
expect a charge. Regardless of what is being advertised, if there is a
charge, it should be clearly stated in ALL notices.

--
Marty Shapiro
Silicon Rallye Inc.

(remove SPAMNOT to email me)

[OtisWinslow]

I attend them regularly .. including one this month. Never heard of
anyone charging for it. I'm surprised the FAA would tolerate it.


"Marty Shapiro" > wrote in message
...
> I local flying club advertised a Wings safety seminar for which they
> would charge $30. This was done in an message to a distribution list for
> local area pilots. Interestingly, if one went to the FAASafety.gov web
> pages and noticed this seminar, there was no mention of a charge, and one
> could sign up for the seminar directly from the FAASafety web page.
>
> I've been attending wings safety seminars for over 10 years and this
> is the first one I've seen which asked attendees to pay. Many seminars in
> fact went out of their way to encourage attendance by offering free
> refreshments and/or door prizes, including one which featured John &
> Martha King.
>
> I have two questions:
>
> 1) Is it now FAA policy to charge for Wings safety seminars, and, if
> so, could this tend to discurage pilots from attending and/or
participation
> in the Wings program?
>
> 2) Do other clubs and/or areas have charges for Wings safety
> seminars?
>
> --
> Marty Shapiro
> Silicon Rallye Inc.
>
> (remove SPAMNOT to email me)

[Richard Russell]

On Sat, 19 Jun 2004 17:55:58 -0000, Marty Shapiro
> wrote:

> I local flying club advertised a Wings safety seminar for which they
>would charge $30. This was done in an message to a distribution list for
>local area pilots. Interestingly, if one went to the FAASafety.gov web
>pages and noticed this seminar, there was no mention of a charge, and one
>could sign up for the seminar directly from the FAASafety web page.
>
> I've been attending wings safety seminars for over 10 years and this
>is the first one I've seen which asked attendees to pay. Many seminars in
>fact went out of their way to encourage attendance by offering free
>refreshments and/or door prizes, including one which featured John &
>Martha King.
>
> I have two questions:
>
> 1) Is it now FAA policy to charge for Wings safety seminars, and, if
>so, could this tend to discurage pilots from attending and/or participation
>in the Wings program?
>
> 2) Do other clubs and/or areas have charges for Wings safety
>seminars?


I am very disappointed to hear this and sincerely hope that this is
not a trend. I attend nearly everyone that comes to my area and they
have all been free. Money is an object and I would have to start
looking very carefully at what the seminar was offering and trying to
determine if it offered more than the flying that I could do for that
money. Hopefully, this is an isolated incident.
Rich Russell

[Tom Sixkiller]

"Richard Russell" > wrote in message
...
>
> I am very disappointed to hear this and sincerely hope that this is
> not a trend. I attend nearly everyone that comes to my area and they
> have all been free.

NOTHING is free.

> Money is an object and I would have to start
> looking very carefully at what the seminar was offering and trying to
> determine if it offered more than the flying that I could do for that
> money. Hopefully, this is an isolated incident.

Hopefully it isn't.

[G.R. Patterson III]

Tom Sixkiller wrote:
>
> "Richard Russell" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > Hopefully, this is an isolated incident.
>
> Hopefully it isn't.

Why?

George Patterson
None of us is as dumb as all of us.

[Tom Sixkiller]

"G.R. Patterson III" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> Tom Sixkiller wrote:
> >
> > "Richard Russell" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > >
> > > Hopefully, this is an isolated incident.
> >
> > Hopefully it isn't.
>
> Why?

Because when these things are "free", like everything else, you get what you
pay for.

[Teacherjh]

>>
Because when these things are "free", like everything else, you get what you
pay for.
<<

And who should pay for the benefit to the public of safer pilots? The public,
no?

Jose

--
(for Email, make the obvious changes in my address)

[Richard Russell]

On Mon, 21 Jun 2004 10:46:12 -0700, "Tom Sixkiller" >
wrote:

>
>"G.R. Patterson III" > wrote in message
...
>>
>>
>> Tom Sixkiller wrote:
>> >
>> > "Richard Russell" > wrote in message
>> > ...
>> > >
>> > > Hopefully, this is an isolated incident.
>> >
>> > Hopefully it isn't.
>>
>> Why?
>
>Because when these things are "free", like everything else, you get what you
>pay for.
>
>
>
I disagree. When we say free, in this context, we're talking about
free to the end user (the pilot). If these seminars are part of the
FAA's mission or mandate and they are funded they have the potential
to be of some value. I have taken something away from everyone that I
have attended.
Rich Russell

[Tom Sixkiller]

"Richard Russell" > wrote in message
...
> On Mon, 21 Jun 2004 10:46:12 -0700, "Tom Sixkiller" >
> wrote:
>
> >
> >"G.R. Patterson III" > wrote in message
> ...
> >>
> >>
> >> Tom Sixkiller wrote:
> >> >
> >> > "Richard Russell" > wrote in message
> >> > ...
> >> > >
> >> > > Hopefully, this is an isolated incident.
> >> >
> >> > Hopefully it isn't.
> >>
> >> Why?
> >
> >Because when these things are "free", like everything else, you get what
you
> >pay for.
> >
> >
> >
> I disagree. When we say free, in this context, we're talking about
> free to the end user (the pilot). If these seminars are part of the
> FAA's mission or mandate and they are funded they have the potential
> to be of some value. I have taken something away from everyone that I
> have attended.

Okay...but similarly, I was offered a free seminar like that for driving (by
my insurance company). It was totally worthless, akin to a high school
drivers ed class.

A class that was worthwhile was the Bondurant School....but it was $1500.

For flying, the Bonanza Pilot Performance Program is worth spending some
$$$.

I find that free government seminars are more bureaucratic "number
crunching", but then maybe this is that one in a thousand that isn't.

[G.R. Patterson III]

Tom Sixkiller wrote:
>
> Because when these things are "free", like everything else, you get what you
> pay for.

Ah. In this case, however, it seems that the lecture will be the same old stuff
provided free of charge by the FAA and it's simply the hosts that have decided to
charge. *If* that's the case, we will see not improvement in program quality due to
the fee (though perhaps the refreshments will be good. They ought to be excellent for
$30).

George Patterson
None of us is as dumb as all of us.

[Marty Shapiro]

"Tom Sixkiller" > wrote in
:

>
> "Richard Russell" > wrote in message
> ...
>> On Mon, 21 Jun 2004 10:46:12 -0700, "Tom Sixkiller"
>> > wrote:
>>
>> >
>> >"G.R. Patterson III" > wrote in message
>> ...
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Tom Sixkiller wrote:
>> >> >
>> >> > "Richard Russell" > wrote in message
>> >> > ...
>> >> > >
>> >> > > Hopefully, this is an isolated incident.
>> >> >
>> >> > Hopefully it isn't.
>> >>
>> >> Why?
>> >
>> >Because when these things are "free", like everything else, you get
>> >what
> you
>> >pay for.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> I disagree. When we say free, in this context, we're talking about
>> free to the end user (the pilot). If these seminars are part of the
>> FAA's mission or mandate and they are funded they have the potential
>> to be of some value. I have taken something away from everyone that
>> I have attended.
>
> Okay...but similarly, I was offered a free seminar like that for
> driving (by my insurance company). It was totally worthless, akin to a
> high school drivers ed class.
>
> A class that was worthwhile was the Bondurant School....but it was
> $1500.
>
> For flying, the Bonanza Pilot Performance Program is worth spending
> some $$$.
>
> I find that free government seminars are more bureaucratic "number
> crunching", but then maybe this is that one in a thousand that isn't.
>
>
>
>
>

Price can be, but is not always, an indicator of quality. One of the
best Wings seminars I've attended was on icing. It was given by one of the
NASA scientests who worked on icing research at NASA's John H. Glenn
Research Center at Lewis Field. One bonus of attending was they
distributed the NASA In-Flight Icing Training for Pilots DVD and CD-ROM for
free. (You can also buy this from Sporty's for the $5.00 distribution cost
and you are expressley permitted to copy and distribute it.) There was no
charge for this Wings safety seminar and SONY donated the use of their
state-of-the-art A/V demonstration conference facility to hold it.

The Wings safety seminar which led to my original question was on
flying a sight seeing tour through the local class B airspace. I've been
to several of these (all free) and always pickied up good tips and pointers
at each one. The best one was free w/refreshments and had an ATC
controller presenting who both worked at a local tower AND was a private
pilot. He was able to give us the perspective from both sides of the
microphone.

A few years ago, when the FAA still had some money, they would sponsor
all day Wings safety seminars. One was at the county convention center.
Again, this was free for attendees, even though some of the speakers were
paid and the convention center was not free. Two of the better
presentations were one on fuel management and fuel reserves given by an
United Airlines captain and one on weather interpretation by a local TV
weatherman (who was also a meteorologist and a pilot).

I'm sure the Bondurant school was outstanding. But, when you found
out about it, was it advertised in context with free driving seminars, or
was it clearly advertised as having a fee?

--
Marty Shapiro
Silicon Rallye Inc.

(remove SPAMNOT to email me)

[Marty Shapiro]

"G.R. Patterson III" > wrote in
:

>
>
> Tom Sixkiller wrote:
>>
>> Because when these things are "free", like everything else, you get
>> what you pay for.
>
> Ah. In this case, however, it seems that the lecture will be the same
> old stuff provided free of charge by the FAA and it's simply the hosts
> that have decided to charge. *If* that's the case, we will see not
> improvement in program quality due to the fee (though perhaps the
> refreshments will be good. They ought to be excellent for $30).
>
> George Patterson
> None of us is as dumb as all of us.

The advertisements (at least the ones I saw) for this particular seminar
did not mention refreshments.

--
Marty Shapiro
Silicon Rallye Inc.

(remove SPAMNOT to email me)

[Tom Sixkiller]

"Marty Shapiro" > wrote in message
...
> "Tom Sixkiller" > wrote in
> :
> > For flying, the Bonanza Pilot Performance Program is worth spending
> > some $$$.
> >
> > I find that free government seminars are more bureaucratic "number
> > crunching", but then maybe this is that one in a thousand that isn't.
> >
>
> Price can be, but is not always, an indicator of quality.

Price (I find) is SELDOM an indicator of quality.
What many people confuse are the terms * Price, * VALUE, and * quality. I'm
sure we've all seen the joke about the PRICE of a gallon of gasoline
compared with things like similar quantities of bottled water, beer, cough
medicine...

Often, ego plays a big part. :~) A Honda Accord will get you somewhere just
as nicely as a Mercedes-Benz, and even be more dependable, but as one person
put it, it's not as efficient for getting chicks.

> A few years ago, when the FAA still had some money, they would
sponsor
> all day Wings safety seminars. One was at the county convention center.
> Again, this was free for attendees, even though some of the speakers were
> paid and the convention center was not free. Two of the better
> presentations were one on fuel management and fuel reserves given by an
> United Airlines captain and one on weather interpretation by a local TV
> weatherman (who was also a meteorologist and a pilot).

Sounds like a pleasant abberation from the bureaucratic norm.

Just for perspective, how many have been well done, and how many
were...otherwise?

> I'm sure the Bondurant school was outstanding. But, when you found
> out about it, was it advertised in context with free driving seminars, or
> was it clearly advertised as having a fee?

Oh, it definitely advertised it's fees. And there definitely were no
freebies. Like the BPPP (which I'll attend this year) or the Advanced Pilot
Seminars (Deakin, Braly) or Mountain Flying courses, there's reasons they
cost $$$, but they better deliver!!

[Marty Shapiro]

"Tom Sixkiller" > wrote in
:


>
>> A few years ago, when the FAA still had some money, they would
> sponsor
>> all day Wings safety seminars. One was at the county convention
>> center. Again, this was free for attendees, even though some of the
>> speakers were paid and the convention center was not free. Two of
>> the better presentations were one on fuel management and fuel
>> reserves given by an United Airlines captain and one on weather
>> interpretation by a local TV weatherman (who was also a meteorologist
>> and a pilot).
>
> Sounds like a pleasant abberation from the bureaucratic norm.
>
> Just for perspective, how many have been well done, and how many
> were...otherwise?

To me the question is how many seminars were worth the time I invested to
attend. If I learned something which I felt made me a better pilot, I
considered the seminar worth my time. Using this defination, I would say
at least 90% of the ones I've attended were worth while. Maybe I've just
been lucky.

--
Marty Shapiro
Silicon Rallye Inc.

(remove SPAMNOT to email me)

[Greg Copeland]

On Sat, 19 Jun 2004 17:55:58 +0000, Marty Shapiro wrote:

> I local flying club advertised a Wings safety seminar for which they
> would charge $30. This was done in an message to a distribution list for
> local area pilots. Interestingly, if one went to the FAASafety.gov web
> pages and noticed this seminar, there was no mention of a charge, and one
> could sign up for the seminar directly from the FAASafety web page.
>
> I've been attending wings safety seminars for over 10 years and this
> is the first one I've seen which asked attendees to pay. Many seminars in
> fact went out of their way to encourage attendance by offering free
> refreshments and/or door prizes, including one which featured John &
> Martha King.
>
> I have two questions:
>
> 1) Is it now FAA policy to charge for Wings safety seminars, and, if
> so, could this tend to discurage pilots from attending and/or participation
> in the Wings program?
>
> 2) Do other clubs and/or areas have charges for Wings safety
> seminars?

Can you point me to a website that talks about the Wings program?

Thanks,

Greg Copeland

[Marty Shapiro]

Greg Copeland > wrote in
:

>
> Can you point me to a website that talks about the Wings program?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Greg Copeland
>
>
>

Information on the Wings program in contained in AC 61-91. The latest
version can be found at:

http://www.faa.gov/avr/afs/safety/WINGS.cfm

--
Marty Shapiro
Silicon Rallye Inc.

(remove SPAMNOT to email me)