what would you do?

[tony roberts]

I have to make a decision that could have a big impact on a fellow pilot
and I would appreciate knowing what you would do in my situation - Here
are the basic facts:
Today I, along with a pilot passenger (witness) went to a fly-in - lots
of planes arriving in short time frame.
Active runway was 14, lh downwind, circuit height 3000 ft.
We called 5 miles out (procedure) and received a response from another
pilot "Joining 17 in 2 minutes".
I responded, "are you arriving xxx airport - there is no 17"
Response - "sorry I meant 35".
I reply, there is no 35 - the runways are 14 and 32. 14 is active,
downwind is lh, circuit is 3000 ft.
Response - circling over 35 losing altitude.
Me - I am approaching threshold of 32 at 3000ft to join downwind left
14. There is no 35 and you should not be descending over the runway.
Response - I am at 5500 descending for 35.
Me - I repeat this airport is 14 and 32 - circuit height is 3000 ft. We
are about to cross midfield to join downwind left 14.
Response - Sorry I meant 32 - I am on downwind left 32.
(32 if it was active - is downwind right)
Me - You are on head on collision course with me- I am in immediate
emergency descent and crossing to midfield (no choice - mountains in
other direction)
Response - Well - I'm trying to land here! Huh?
Me - XXX Radio - are you guys listening to this? I could really use your
help here right now (I admit - I got VERY rattled)
XXX Radio - Errr aircraft xxx active is downwind left 14.
So I land.
And then this plane comes in and bounces nose wheel to mains - 4 or 5
times.
So I'm out of the plane and I meet a friend who arrived before me. And
that was when I found out that our radio calls had been broadcast via
loudspeakers to over 1000 spectators.
And my friend said, "I am really embarrassed about this, because I have
been trying to help this pilot (who has a PPL and over 100 hours) but
she is totally clueless.
So the pilot now taxis next to my friends aircraft , taxis into the
grass/soft dirt - gets stuck trying to turn, applys FULL power and
sprays the side of my friends aircraft with dirt & stones - and keeps
doing it - because she is so clueless she doesn't know what she is doing.
Moving forward - I watched her depart.
Radio at taxiway - Aircraft calling on final - which airport are you
landing at - I kid you not.
Aircraft on final - 14 XXX
He lands.
Another aircraft calls final 14 xxx
Response - Aircraft on final - which airport are you landing at?
Aircraft on final - 14 XXX
And yet another aircraft calls final.
"Listen - I'm waiting to take off here"
He lands.
She has about 8 aircraft behind her.
Now she does her runup.
Her call - XXX taking off. (No runway - just taking off).
Of the approx 500 aircraft that took off here today, this was the ONLY
one that didn't backtrack.
With nosewheel up way to soon for density altitude she took off, stall
horn wailing as she skimmed the trees and departed for home.
Would you report her - or would you forget it?
I'm having a hard time thinking of reporting her,
I'll have a harder time if I do nothing and she crashes next week.
What would you do?
Thanks
Tony

--

Tony Roberts
PP-ASEL
VFR OTT
Night
Almost Instrument :)
Cessna 172H C-GICE

[Michael 182]

"tony roberts" > wrote in message
news:nospam-7E8DDE.22231620062004@shawnews...
> I have to make a decision that could have a big impact on a fellow pilot
> and I would appreciate knowing what you would do in my situation

<snip>

> I'm having a hard time thinking of reporting her,
> I'll have a harder time if I do nothing and she crashes next week.
> What would you do?
> Thanks
> Tony

If I could find her I might send her a private email, or even a phone call
diplomatically (is such a thing possible?) suggesting remedial radio and
pattern work. But in all likelihood I would do nothing. You have no reason
to feel bad, other than the standard response to any accident, if she
crashes next week - she is a pilot, she has to take responsibility for
herself.

[Peter Duniho]

"tony roberts" > wrote in message
news:nospam-7E8DDE.22231620062004@shawnews...
> [...]
> Would you report her - or would you forget it?
> I'm having a hard time thinking of reporting her,
> I'll have a harder time if I do nothing and she crashes next week.
> What would you do?

I'm not sure I'm entirely clear on your narrative. It looked like from what
you wrote that you know someone who personally knows the pilot you're asking
about. Is that right?

If so, I'd say the first step is to try to work through your friend to find
out what the deal is with this pilot, and whether she understands what a
hazard she is. That she would attempt to participate in such a crowded
situation with so few hours, and with so little in the way of basic piloting
skills seems very strange, unless she is completely oblivious to her own
limitations.

If you've ascertained that she is unable to understand that she needs more
training and more experience, or you are unable to make contact with the
pilot, then I'd say that the local FSDO is your only option, should you want
to do something.

The question of whether you should depends on your own ethics..."Michael"
obviously feels it's none of your concern. I disagree...as I've said before
in similar situations, if you could be sure the only person she'd kill was
herself, then it's an issue between her and her maker. But you can't be
sure of that, can you? She may kill a passenger (or more than one), and she
may kill people not in her airplane.

Me? I'd report her. I've been called a "tattle-tale" countless ways by
now, by people who would rather die than improve the safety record, and I'm
used to it. Be aware that plenty of people will disapprove of you if you do
tell.

But ultimately, only you can decide what the right course of action is for
you to take.

At the very least though, you ought to file an ASRS report. This was
clearly a hazardous situation, in which a single pilot managed to disrupt a
busy fly-in, and it's the sort of thing that belongs in NASA's database.

Pete

[Mike Rapoport]

You should call the FSDO. If your description is accurate, this person
shouldn't be flying.

Mike
MU-2

"tony roberts" > wrote in message
news:nospam-7E8DDE.22231620062004@shawnews...
> I have to make a decision that could have a big impact on a fellow pilot
> and I would appreciate knowing what you would do in my situation - Here
> are the basic facts:
> Today I, along with a pilot passenger (witness) went to a fly-in - lots
> of planes arriving in short time frame.
> Active runway was 14, lh downwind, circuit height 3000 ft.
> We called 5 miles out (procedure) and received a response from another
> pilot "Joining 17 in 2 minutes".
> I responded, "are you arriving xxx airport - there is no 17"
> Response - "sorry I meant 35".
> I reply, there is no 35 - the runways are 14 and 32. 14 is active,
> downwind is lh, circuit is 3000 ft.
> Response - circling over 35 losing altitude.
> Me - I am approaching threshold of 32 at 3000ft to join downwind left
> 14. There is no 35 and you should not be descending over the runway.
> Response - I am at 5500 descending for 35.
> Me - I repeat this airport is 14 and 32 - circuit height is 3000 ft. We
> are about to cross midfield to join downwind left 14.
> Response - Sorry I meant 32 - I am on downwind left 32.
> (32 if it was active - is downwind right)
> Me - You are on head on collision course with me- I am in immediate
> emergency descent and crossing to midfield (no choice - mountains in
> other direction)
> Response - Well - I'm trying to land here! Huh?
> Me - XXX Radio - are you guys listening to this? I could really use your
> help here right now (I admit - I got VERY rattled)
> XXX Radio - Errr aircraft xxx active is downwind left 14.
> So I land.
> And then this plane comes in and bounces nose wheel to mains - 4 or 5
> times.
> So I'm out of the plane and I meet a friend who arrived before me. And
> that was when I found out that our radio calls had been broadcast via
> loudspeakers to over 1000 spectators.
> And my friend said, "I am really embarrassed about this, because I have
> been trying to help this pilot (who has a PPL and over 100 hours) but
> she is totally clueless.
> So the pilot now taxis next to my friends aircraft , taxis into the
> grass/soft dirt - gets stuck trying to turn, applys FULL power and
> sprays the side of my friends aircraft with dirt & stones - and keeps
> doing it - because she is so clueless she doesn't know what she is doing.
> Moving forward - I watched her depart.
> Radio at taxiway - Aircraft calling on final - which airport are you
> landing at - I kid you not.
> Aircraft on final - 14 XXX
> He lands.
> Another aircraft calls final 14 xxx
> Response - Aircraft on final - which airport are you landing at?
> Aircraft on final - 14 XXX
> And yet another aircraft calls final.
> "Listen - I'm waiting to take off here"
> He lands.
> She has about 8 aircraft behind her.
> Now she does her runup.
> Her call - XXX taking off. (No runway - just taking off).
> Of the approx 500 aircraft that took off here today, this was the ONLY
> one that didn't backtrack.
> With nosewheel up way to soon for density altitude she took off, stall
> horn wailing as she skimmed the trees and departed for home.
> Would you report her - or would you forget it?
> I'm having a hard time thinking of reporting her,
> I'll have a harder time if I do nothing and she crashes next week.
> What would you do?
> Thanks
> Tony
>
> --
>
> Tony Roberts
> PP-ASEL
> VFR OTT
> Night
> Almost Instrument :)
> Cessna 172H C-GICE

[Doug]

tony roberts > wrote in news:nospam-7E8DDE.22231620062004
@shawnews:

> What would you do?
> Thanks
> Tony
>

Im a new pilot here but with what I have been taught in the past and
reading what you wrote....

I would have socked her right in the mouth the moment she stepped out of
her plane.

I then would have cut her tire so that the idiot couldnt take off again..

but thats just me with 16 hours in a plane and a lifetime of dealing with
idiots :-)

[lardsoup]

How do you know her stall horn was wailing? Why did you fly a right
downwind for 14, then make a right turn to cross midfield for a left
downwind for 14.

"tony roberts" > wrote in message
news:nospam-7E8DDE.22231620062004@shawnews...
> I have to make a decision that could have a big impact on a fellow pilot
> and I would appreciate knowing what you would do in my situation - Here
> are the basic facts:
> Today I, along with a pilot passenger (witness) went to a fly-in - lots
> of planes arriving in short time frame.
> Active runway was 14, lh downwind, circuit height 3000 ft.
> We called 5 miles out (procedure) and received a response from another
> pilot "Joining 17 in 2 minutes".
> I responded, "are you arriving xxx airport - there is no 17"
> Response - "sorry I meant 35".
> I reply, there is no 35 - the runways are 14 and 32. 14 is active,
> downwind is lh, circuit is 3000 ft.
> Response - circling over 35 losing altitude.
> Me - I am approaching threshold of 32 at 3000ft to join downwind left
> 14. There is no 35 and you should not be descending over the runway.
> Response - I am at 5500 descending for 35.
> Me - I repeat this airport is 14 and 32 - circuit height is 3000 ft. We
> are about to cross midfield to join downwind left 14.
> Response - Sorry I meant 32 - I am on downwind left 32.
> (32 if it was active - is downwind right)
> Me - You are on head on collision course with me- I am in immediate
> emergency descent and crossing to midfield (no choice - mountains in
> other direction)
> Response - Well - I'm trying to land here! Huh?
> Me - XXX Radio - are you guys listening to this? I could really use your
> help here right now (I admit - I got VERY rattled)
> XXX Radio - Errr aircraft xxx active is downwind left 14.
> So I land.
> And then this plane comes in and bounces nose wheel to mains - 4 or 5
> times.
> So I'm out of the plane and I meet a friend who arrived before me. And
> that was when I found out that our radio calls had been broadcast via
> loudspeakers to over 1000 spectators.
> And my friend said, "I am really embarrassed about this, because I have
> been trying to help this pilot (who has a PPL and over 100 hours) but
> she is totally clueless.
> So the pilot now taxis next to my friends aircraft , taxis into the
> grass/soft dirt - gets stuck trying to turn, applys FULL power and
> sprays the side of my friends aircraft with dirt & stones - and keeps
> doing it - because she is so clueless she doesn't know what she is doing.
> Moving forward - I watched her depart.
> Radio at taxiway - Aircraft calling on final - which airport are you
> landing at - I kid you not.
> Aircraft on final - 14 XXX
> He lands.
> Another aircraft calls final 14 xxx
> Response - Aircraft on final - which airport are you landing at?
> Aircraft on final - 14 XXX
> And yet another aircraft calls final.
> "Listen - I'm waiting to take off here"
> He lands.
> She has about 8 aircraft behind her.
> Now she does her runup.
> Her call - XXX taking off. (No runway - just taking off).
> Of the approx 500 aircraft that took off here today, this was the ONLY
> one that didn't backtrack.
> With nosewheel up way to soon for density altitude she took off, stall
> horn wailing as she skimmed the trees and departed for home.
> Would you report her - or would you forget it?
> I'm having a hard time thinking of reporting her,
> I'll have a harder time if I do nothing and she crashes next week.
> What would you do?
> Thanks
> Tony
>
> --
>
> Tony Roberts
> PP-ASEL
> VFR OTT
> Night
> Almost Instrument :)
> Cessna 172H C-GICE

[gatt]

Report her. She might not deserve the favor, and she might not appreciate
it, but it might be the best thing you could do for her, any passengers she
might carry, and the safety of GA as a whole.

-c

"tony roberts" > wrote in message
news:nospam-7E8DDE.22231620062004@shawnews...
> I have to make a decision that could have a big impact on a fellow pilot
> and I would appreciate knowing what you would do in my situation - Here
> are the basic facts:
> Today I, along with a pilot passenger (witness) went to a fly-in - lots
> of planes arriving in short time frame.
> Active runway was 14, lh downwind, circuit height 3000 ft.
> We called 5 miles out (procedure) and received a response from another
> pilot "Joining 17 in 2 minutes".
> I responded, "are you arriving xxx airport - there is no 17"
> Response - "sorry I meant 35".
> I reply, there is no 35 - the runways are 14 and 32. 14 is active,
> downwind is lh, circuit is 3000 ft.
> Response - circling over 35 losing altitude.
> Me - I am approaching threshold of 32 at 3000ft to join downwind left
> 14. There is no 35 and you should not be descending over the runway.
> Response - I am at 5500 descending for 35.
> Me - I repeat this airport is 14 and 32 - circuit height is 3000 ft. We
> are about to cross midfield to join downwind left 14.
> Response - Sorry I meant 32 - I am on downwind left 32.
> (32 if it was active - is downwind right)
> Me - You are on head on collision course with me- I am in immediate
> emergency descent and crossing to midfield (no choice - mountains in
> other direction)
> Response - Well - I'm trying to land here! Huh?
> Me - XXX Radio - are you guys listening to this? I could really use your
> help here right now (I admit - I got VERY rattled)
> XXX Radio - Errr aircraft xxx active is downwind left 14.
> So I land.
> And then this plane comes in and bounces nose wheel to mains - 4 or 5
> times.
> So I'm out of the plane and I meet a friend who arrived before me. And
> that was when I found out that our radio calls had been broadcast via
> loudspeakers to over 1000 spectators.
> And my friend said, "I am really embarrassed about this, because I have
> been trying to help this pilot (who has a PPL and over 100 hours) but
> she is totally clueless.
> So the pilot now taxis next to my friends aircraft , taxis into the
> grass/soft dirt - gets stuck trying to turn, applys FULL power and
> sprays the side of my friends aircraft with dirt & stones - and keeps
> doing it - because she is so clueless she doesn't know what she is doing.
> Moving forward - I watched her depart.
> Radio at taxiway - Aircraft calling on final - which airport are you
> landing at - I kid you not.
> Aircraft on final - 14 XXX
> He lands.
> Another aircraft calls final 14 xxx
> Response - Aircraft on final - which airport are you landing at?
> Aircraft on final - 14 XXX
> And yet another aircraft calls final.
> "Listen - I'm waiting to take off here"
> He lands.
> She has about 8 aircraft behind her.
> Now she does her runup.
> Her call - XXX taking off. (No runway - just taking off).
> Of the approx 500 aircraft that took off here today, this was the ONLY
> one that didn't backtrack.
> With nosewheel up way to soon for density altitude she took off, stall
> horn wailing as she skimmed the trees and departed for home.
> Would you report her - or would you forget it?
> I'm having a hard time thinking of reporting her,
> I'll have a harder time if I do nothing and she crashes next week.
> What would you do?
> Thanks
> Tony
>
> --
>
> Tony Roberts
> PP-ASEL
> VFR OTT
> Night
> Almost Instrument :)
> Cessna 172H C-GICE

[Michael 182]

What does "report her" mean? Why should the FSDO care what I say when I
"report" a fellow pilot? Is there a procedure for this? I don't know - I
just don't like the idea that an overly officious fellow pilot would decide
to "report me" if they were unhappy with my piloting. A few weeks ago I was
accosted on the ramp by a pilot who was upset that I used too much runway in
my landing and caused him to go around. (I didn't say anything, but I kind
of wondered why he was following me so closely around the pattern.) The jerk
was yelling at me that if I couldn't land shorter than that I shouldn't be
landing at "his" airport. I can just picture him "reporting" me, and having
to deal with a FSDO investigation or some such thing.

Michael



"gatt" > wrote in message
...
>
> Report her. She might not deserve the favor, and she might not appreciate
> it, but it might be the best thing you could do for her, any passengers
she
> might carry, and the safety of GA as a whole.
>
> -c
>
\

[Andrew Gideon]

tony roberts wrote:

> Me - You are on head on collision course with me-

If you're both in LH downwinds for opposing runways, then - at least during
the downwind - you're well clear of one another. Crossing midfield for the
RH pattern while the other pilot is in LH for opposing runway is exactly
the wrong thing to do.

- Andrew

[Peter Duniho]

"Michael 182" > wrote in message
news:cwGBc.70661$Hg2.7085@attbi_s04...
> What does "report her" mean? Why should the FSDO care what I say when I
> "report" a fellow pilot?

They are the ones in charge of enforcing the FARs.

> Is there a procedure for this?

Pick up the phone, dial the number, tell them what you saw and heard.

> I don't know - I
> just don't like the idea that an overly officious fellow pilot would
decide
> to "report me" if they were unhappy with my piloting.

Me either. But still, what else are you going to do?

How do you feel about calling the police if someone breaks into your house?
I mean, you wouldn't want YOUR neighbor calling the police tell them YOU
broke into THEIR house, would you? By your logic, you ought to just ignore
the guy breaking into your own house.

> [...] I can just picture him "reporting" me, and having
> to deal with a FSDO investigation or some such thing.

Had he reported you, I doubt anything of substance would have happened. In
any case, you can always sue him for slander.

Pete

[Michael 182]

"Peter Duniho" > wrote in message
...
> "Michael 182" > wrote in message
> news:cwGBc.70661$Hg2.7085@attbi_s04...
> > What does "report her" mean? Why should the FSDO care what I say when I
> > "report" a fellow pilot?
>
> They are the ones in charge of enforcing the FARs.

Right, but it is my word against hers. Why should they believe me?

>
> > Is there a procedure for this?
>
> Pick up the phone, dial the number, tell them what you saw and heard.
>
> > I don't know - I
> > just don't like the idea that an overly officious fellow pilot would
> decide
> > to "report me" if they were unhappy with my piloting.
>
> Me either. But still, what else are you going to do?
>
> How do you feel about calling the police if someone breaks into your
house?
> I mean, you wouldn't want YOUR neighbor calling the police tell them YOU
> broke into THEIR house, would you? By your logic, you ought to just
ignore
> the guy breaking into your own house.

No, that doesn't follow, Peter. I have no problem reporting (some) crimes to
the police. Her piloting may have been unsafe, but it was not a crime.

>
> > [...] I can just picture him "reporting" me, and having
> > to deal with a FSDO investigation or some such thing.
>
> Had he reported you, I doubt anything of substance would have happened.
In
> any case, you can always sue him for slander.

Ugh, litigation - the worst possible result.

>
> Pete
>
>

[Gerald Sylvester]

> The question of whether you should depends on your own ethics..."Michael"
> obviously feels it's none of your concern. I disagree...as I've said before
> in similar situations, if you could be sure the only person she'd kill was
> herself, then it's an issue between her and her maker. But you can't be
> sure of that, can you? She may kill a passenger (or more than one), and she
> may kill people not in her airplane.

I had a similar siutation. I solo'd just before moving to Germany so
my radio skills were limited and XC time was zilch. My housemate in
Germany, myself and his pilot friend went up. We flew around southern
Germany and then to Salzburg. From my memory, things the guy did that
was clearly dangerous.

1. was going to take off without a checklist. he accidently found it
while taxiing.

2. I don't recall him doing a full pre-flight.
3. was quite lost going into Salzburg despite a Garmin 430
4. Through in full flaps flying into Salzburg Class C airport with
numerous planes barrelling down our ass. he could have easily thrown
in full flaps after crossing the numbers at 1000 AGL considering it
was a 9000 (?) foot runway.
5. he landed maybe 1 inch past the numbers and then proceeded
to roll down the runway to the FBO 4000 feet past the numbers
rather than landing very long.
6. on departure from Salzburg, couldn't follow basic radio commands,
"contact departure on xxx.xx, squawk YYYY"
7. got lost going back at night until Munich approach (not sure
of the names, BTW) said "Cessna XXXXX, if you are going to Augsburg,
wouldn't you want to turn by now."
8. MUC approach got on his ass for busting the class B (I'm guessing)
airspace.
9. (not in order) on approach into Rosenheim, I was in the back of
the 172 and remember treetops flying by at our height on
both sides so we were very damn low.

that is what I remember. I remember there were more.

Well my housemate and I recently flew from the bay area down to Santa
barbara. He commented that I'm a lot more precise flier with my
115 hours and half way through a IFR ticket than his friend with 250+
hours of VFR. I didn't want to bad mouth his friend until my old
housemate told me they went flying with 2 smallish women over the Alps
at 12000 feet. I wondered what the density altitude was and how
much AGL they were. Apparently there wasn't much. Then my old
housemate, granted he is NOT a pilot, said they had a serious close
call on final back at their home airport in Augsburg due to
language problems. I didn't get into it but it would not surprise
me whatsoever. This guy is simply scary, downright dangerous to
not only himself but his passengers and other airplanes/people.

After I returned to the US while finishing my PPL, I saw something
like that with a Mooney in the pattern. The guy left the pattern but
then returned 20 minutes later. I said to my CFI, "you watch him.
I fly." nevertheless the guy busted into the pattern at a controlled
Class D airport and then came within 200 feet of landing on someone,
then couldn't follow directions to climb to 1200 (pattern is at 800
and SFO Class B at 1500) and circle. I was in no immediate danger
but if he almost landed on me, I'd demand a write up of him.

IMHO, if this person is as bad as you desribe, I'd report them.

Gerald

[G.R. Patterson III]

Michael 182 wrote:
>
> "Peter Duniho" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > They are the ones in charge of enforcing the FARs.
>
> Right, but it is my word against hers. Why should they believe me?

You forget. This is the FAA. Believing you gives them an opportunity to investigate a
pilot. She is guilty until proven innocent.

George Patterson
None of us is as dumb as all of us.

[Peter Duniho]

"Michael 182" > wrote in message
news:KjLBc.69040$2i5.6820@attbi_s52...
> Right, but it is my word against hers. Why should they believe me?

It's highly unlikely that a single report would cause anything to happen.
But if the FSDO hears from several people about the same person, there's
probably something to that. You can be assured that the FSDO isn't going to
base their entire case on your word. However, your word may be just what
they need to take a closer look at a pilot who needs a closer look.

> > How do you feel about calling the police if someone breaks into your
house?
> > I mean, you wouldn't want YOUR neighbor calling the police tell them YOU
> > broke into THEIR house, would you? By your logic, you ought to just
ignore
> > the guy breaking into your own house.
>
> No, that doesn't follow, Peter. I have no problem reporting (some) crimes
to
> the police. Her piloting may have been unsafe, but it was not a crime.

Of course it follows. The behavior not being a crime is irrelevant, and in
any case it may well be a crime (ever heard of "reckless endangerment"?).

The point is that you are saying that because you wouldn't want someone to
falsely report you of doing something, that you wouldn't want to truthfully
report someone else of doing the same thing. That attitude makes no sense,
and it really doesn't matter whether the "thing" being done has been
labelled as "illegal" or simply "against the regulations".

> > Had he reported you, I doubt anything of substance would have happened.
In
> > any case, you can always sue him for slander.
>
> Ugh, litigation - the worst possible result.

So don't sue. I was just pointing out that it's not like a falsely accused
person doesn't have recourse. We're not really talking about you being
reported. We're talking about someone else being reported, and a person who
has actually done something worth reporting at that.

Pete

[Michael 182]

"G.R. Patterson III" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> Michael 182 wrote:
> >
> > "Peter Duniho" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > >
> > > They are the ones in charge of enforcing the FARs.
> >
> > Right, but it is my word against hers. Why should they believe me?
>
> You forget. This is the FAA. Believing you gives them an opportunity to
investigate a
> pilot. She is guilty until proven innocent.

Yeah, that's kind of what I'm worried about...

>
> George Patterson
> None of us is as dumb as all of us.

[zatatime]

On Mon, 21 Jun 2004 18:59:20 -0700, "Peter Duniho"
> wrote:

>We're not really talking about you being
>reported. We're talking about someone else being reported, and a person who
>has actually done something worth reporting at that.


It shouldn't matter Who is being reported. How do you know this
person has done something worth reporting? Because of a post on the
internet? I've read the thread and have seen some people point out
imperfections in the procedures used by the original poster as well as
a very colorful story about what seems to be a pilot still in need of
some education. However I certainly did not learn a sufficient number
of facts on the "alleged incident" (for the lawyers out there) to
state anyone should be reported for possible legal action.

I really am amazed at how quickly this group seems to hang people and
almost unanimously declare that someone should be referred to the
authorities when all they really have to go by is one persons opinion.

It's almost as if no one here has ever made a mistake, and that they
are as close to perfect pilots as anyone can be.

My 2 cents.
z

[C J Campbell]

First of all, what would you report her for? I am having difficulty finding
an actual FAR violation here, though it appears that everyone, including
yourself, was flying some sort of non-standard pattern. Being rude is not a
crime (otherwise most of us here would have been locked up long ago).

Secondly, if your radio conversation was broadcast over the loudspeakers for
1000 people to hear, the FAA already heard it.

Third, if your friend is a CFI who has been working with this pilot, then
your friend is probably in the best position to recommend that this pilot
take a competency check.

Last of all, I have heard this kind of stuff at every fly-in I have gone to.

[Peter Duniho]

"zatatime" > wrote in message
...
> It shouldn't matter Who is being reported. How do you know this
> person has done something worth reporting? Because of a post on the
> internet?

No one is proposing reporting a pilot solely on the basis of what they've
read on this newsgroup. The only person to whom it's being suggested that
the pilot be reported is the person who actually observed the actions.

If that person cannot make a final determination as to whether to report the
person, who can? All we are saying is that if the events transpired as
described, that's a reportable offense. Nothing more, nothing less.

> It's almost as if no one here has ever made a mistake, and that they
> are as close to perfect pilots as anyone can be.

I have no idea where you got that impression. Perhaps you could quote some
posts that led you to it. It sure seems like you pulled that conclusion out
of your ass, given the utter lack of supporting statements within this
thread to justify it.

Pete

[Teacherjh]

Ok... suppose YOU were the FAA... and the incident occured exactly the way it
was portrayed in the original post, and it was reported to the FAA (you).

What would you (were you the FAA) do?

Jose

--
(for Email, make the obvious changes in my address)

[BTIZ]

perhaps that CFI should not sign off her next BFR... if she flies like this
and does not listen and learn... then I would not want my name to be the
last endorsement in her logbook.. maybe he should warn his friends also..

BT

"gatt" > wrote in message
...
>
> Report her. She might not deserve the favor, and she might not appreciate
> it, but it might be the best thing you could do for her, any passengers
she
> might carry, and the safety of GA as a whole.
>
> -c
>
> "tony roberts" > wrote in message
> news:nospam-7E8DDE.22231620062004@shawnews...
> > I have to make a decision that could have a big impact on a fellow pilot
> > and I would appreciate knowing what you would do in my situation - Here
> > are the basic facts:
> > Today I, along with a pilot passenger (witness) went to a fly-in - lots
> > of planes arriving in short time frame.
> > Active runway was 14, lh downwind, circuit height 3000 ft.
> > We called 5 miles out (procedure) and received a response from another
> > pilot "Joining 17 in 2 minutes".
> > I responded, "are you arriving xxx airport - there is no 17"
> > Response - "sorry I meant 35".
> > I reply, there is no 35 - the runways are 14 and 32. 14 is active,
> > downwind is lh, circuit is 3000 ft.
> > Response - circling over 35 losing altitude.
> > Me - I am approaching threshold of 32 at 3000ft to join downwind left
> > 14. There is no 35 and you should not be descending over the runway.
> > Response - I am at 5500 descending for 35.
> > Me - I repeat this airport is 14 and 32 - circuit height is 3000 ft. We
> > are about to cross midfield to join downwind left 14.
> > Response - Sorry I meant 32 - I am on downwind left 32.
> > (32 if it was active - is downwind right)
> > Me - You are on head on collision course with me- I am in immediate
> > emergency descent and crossing to midfield (no choice - mountains in
> > other direction)
> > Response - Well - I'm trying to land here! Huh?
> > Me - XXX Radio - are you guys listening to this? I could really use your
> > help here right now (I admit - I got VERY rattled)
> > XXX Radio - Errr aircraft xxx active is downwind left 14.
> > So I land.
> > And then this plane comes in and bounces nose wheel to mains - 4 or 5
> > times.
> > So I'm out of the plane and I meet a friend who arrived before me. And
> > that was when I found out that our radio calls had been broadcast via
> > loudspeakers to over 1000 spectators.
> > And my friend said, "I am really embarrassed about this, because I have
> > been trying to help this pilot (who has a PPL and over 100 hours) but
> > she is totally clueless.
> > So the pilot now taxis next to my friends aircraft , taxis into the
> > grass/soft dirt - gets stuck trying to turn, applys FULL power and
> > sprays the side of my friends aircraft with dirt & stones - and keeps
> > doing it - because she is so clueless she doesn't know what she is
doing.
> > Moving forward - I watched her depart.
> > Radio at taxiway - Aircraft calling on final - which airport are you
> > landing at - I kid you not.
> > Aircraft on final - 14 XXX
> > He lands.
> > Another aircraft calls final 14 xxx
> > Response - Aircraft on final - which airport are you landing at?
> > Aircraft on final - 14 XXX
> > And yet another aircraft calls final.
> > "Listen - I'm waiting to take off here"
> > He lands.
> > She has about 8 aircraft behind her.
> > Now she does her runup.
> > Her call - XXX taking off. (No runway - just taking off).
> > Of the approx 500 aircraft that took off here today, this was the ONLY
> > one that didn't backtrack.
> > With nosewheel up way to soon for density altitude she took off, stall
> > horn wailing as she skimmed the trees and departed for home.
> > Would you report her - or would you forget it?
> > I'm having a hard time thinking of reporting her,
> > I'll have a harder time if I do nothing and she crashes next week.
> > What would you do?
> > Thanks
> > Tony
> >
> > --
> >
> > Tony Roberts
> > PP-ASEL
> > VFR OTT
> > Night
> > Almost Instrument :)
> > Cessna 172H C-GICE
>
>

[Peter Duniho]

"Teacherjh" > wrote in message
...
> Ok... suppose YOU were the FAA... and the incident occured exactly the way
it
> was portrayed in the original post, and it was reported to the FAA (you).
>
> What would you (were you the FAA) do?

Generally speaking, "keep an eye on her". I have no idea what the FAA
actually would do, or how they "keep an eye on" someone.

I wouldn't expect them to actually write a violation on the basis on that
single report, but they might contact the pilot to talk to her. Of course,
if she incriminates herself in the process, that's a different matter.
Knowing the FAA, if the pilot actually incriminated herself while talking to
the FAA, I'd expect them to throw whatever book at her they have.

If this were the fiftieth report (for example) of bad behavior on her part
that the FSDO received, I'd expect them to start *some* sort of proceedings,
if only a review (what do they call it? 409? I don't remember).

Pete

[Gary Drescher]

"C J Campbell" > wrote in message
...
> First of all, what would you report her for? I am having difficulty
finding
> an actual FAR violation here, though it appears that everyone, including
> yourself, was flying some sort of non-standard pattern.

Flying a left pattern for a runway designated as right-traffic violates
91.126b or 91.127a.

--Gary

[Tom Sixkiller]

"zatatime" > wrote in message
...
>
> I really am amazed at how quickly this group seems to hang people and
> almost unanimously declare that someone should be referred to the
> authorities when all they really have to go by is one persons opinion.

According to the original post, there were quite a few witnesses.

> It's almost as if no one here has ever made a mistake, and that they
> are as close to perfect pilots as anyone can be.

Not that boneheaded of mistakes.

[Tom Sixkiller]

"C J Campbell" > wrote in message
...
> First of all, what would you report her for? I am having difficulty
finding
> an actual FAR violation here, though it appears that everyone, including
> yourself, was flying some sort of non-standard pattern. Being rude is not
a
> crime (otherwise most of us here would have been locked up long ago).

"Rude" is all it was?

> Secondly, if your radio conversation was broadcast over the loudspeakers
for
> 1000 people to hear, the FAA already heard it.

Oh?

[zatatime]

On Tue, 22 Jun 2004 05:53:15 -0700, "Tom Sixkiller"
> wrote:

>According to the original post, there were quite a few witnesses.

None of whom frequent this group, which still leaves us making a
determination (suggestion) based one one person's point of view.
>
>> It's almost as if no one here has ever made a mistake, and that they
>> are as close to perfect pilots as anyone can be.
>
>Not that boneheaded of mistakes.

Are you sure, No One who has Ever posted here has not made One
significant error? Just seems too absolute a statement to me.

[zatatime]

On Mon, 21 Jun 2004 20:45:34 -0700, "Peter Duniho"
> wrote:

>"zatatime" > wrote in message
...
>> It shouldn't matter Who is being reported. How do you know this
>> person has done something worth reporting? Because of a post on the
>> internet?
>
>No one is proposing reporting a pilot solely on the basis of what they've
>read on this newsgroup. The only person to whom it's being suggested that
>the pilot be reported is the person who actually observed the actions.
>
>If that person cannot make a final determination as to whether to report the
>person, who can? All we are saying is that if the events transpired as
>described, that's a reportable offense. Nothing more, nothing less.
And that person is using input from this group as a barometer for his
actions. When strong opinions are shared from people he may trust
those opinions weigh more heavily into the equation than random
comments. If the people making those opinions were not there to
witness it they really don't know what transpired.

>
>> It's almost as if no one here has ever made a mistake, and that they
>> are as close to perfect pilots as anyone can be.
>
>I have no idea where you got that impression. Perhaps you could quote some
>posts that led you to it. It sure seems like you pulled that conclusion out
>of your ass, given the utter lack of supporting statements within this
>thread to justify it.

From time to time we see a "What Would You Do" type of post.
Generally the crowd chants Take Action with the Feds. This opinion
did not come out of my ass at all, but is based on what I have seen
here over time. I don't live for usenet (although I use it regularly)
so I'm not going to research history for the sake of sharing an
opinion. It wouldn't be time well spent.

Don't take it so personally.

z

[Mike Rapoport]

True but calling the FSDO is just beginning a process of reviewing whether
the pilot in question is qualified to be flying or needs more training.
Based on the information presented, I think a review is warranted. Just my
humble opinion.

Mike
MU-2

"zatatime" > wrote in message
...
> On Mon, 21 Jun 2004 20:45:34 -0700, "Peter Duniho"
> > wrote:
>
> >"zatatime" > wrote in message
> ...
> >> It shouldn't matter Who is being reported. How do you know this
> >> person has done something worth reporting? Because of a post on the
> >> internet?
> >
> >No one is proposing reporting a pilot solely on the basis of what they've
> >read on this newsgroup. The only person to whom it's being suggested that
> >the pilot be reported is the person who actually observed the actions.
> >
> >If that person cannot make a final determination as to whether to report
the
> >person, who can? All we are saying is that if the events transpired as
> >described, that's a reportable offense. Nothing more, nothing less.
> And that person is using input from this group as a barometer for his
> actions. When strong opinions are shared from people he may trust
> those opinions weigh more heavily into the equation than random
> comments. If the people making those opinions were not there to
> witness it they really don't know what transpired.
>
> >
> >> It's almost as if no one here has ever made a mistake, and that they
> >> are as close to perfect pilots as anyone can be.
> >
> >I have no idea where you got that impression. Perhaps you could quote
some
> >posts that led you to it. It sure seems like you pulled that conclusion
out
> >of your ass, given the utter lack of supporting statements within this
> >thread to justify it.
>
> From time to time we see a "What Would You Do" type of post.
> Generally the crowd chants Take Action with the Feds. This opinion
> did not come out of my ass at all, but is based on what I have seen
> here over time. I don't live for usenet (although I use it regularly)
> so I'm not going to research history for the sake of sharing an
> opinion. It wouldn't be time well spent.
>
> Don't take it so personally.
>
> z
>

[Peter Duniho]

"zatatime" > wrote in message
...
> And that person is using input from this group as a barometer for his
> actions.

And yet, we are not the ones making the decision. Whatever happened to
personal responsibility? Oh, that's right...there's no such thing anymore.

> [...] If the people making those opinions were not there to
> witness it they really don't know what transpired.

If the people making those opinions WERE there, they could take action
themselves, rather than providing insight to someone else who WAS there. By
your logic, no one should ever seek counsel from someone else. That's a
pretty dumb conclusion, IMHO.

> From time to time we see a "What Would You Do" type of post.
> Generally the crowd chants Take Action with the Feds.

Yes, it does, now and then. So?

> This opinion
> did not come out of my ass at all, but is based on what I have seen
> here over time.

How do you conclude from recommendations that dangerous behavior be reported
to the FAA, that "no one here has ever made a mistake"? The two are
completely unrelated.

Your statement that "no one here has ever made a mistake" did indeed come
right out of your ass. It's a completely unjustified conclusion. No one
here ever claimed that they never made a mistake (well, perhaps excepting
one particular trollish controller), nor do comments suggesting a dangerous
pilot be reported imply any such thing.

Pete

[Tom Sixkiller]

"zatatime" > wrote in message
...
> On Tue, 22 Jun 2004 05:53:15 -0700, "Tom Sixkiller"
> > wrote:
>
> >According to the original post, there were quite a few witnesses.
>
> None of whom frequent this group, which still leaves us making a
> determination (suggestion) based one one person's point of view.

I didn't know we were expected to make a determination, only a WAG as to
what he should do: report, or not report. I expect $12 a day if I gotta do
Jury Duty.

> >> It's almost as if no one here has ever made a mistake, and that they
> >> are as close to perfect pilots as anyone can be.
> >
> >Not that boneheaded of mistakes.
>
> Are you sure, No One who has Ever posted here has not made One
> significant error? Just seems too absolute a statement to me.

We're all still alive, aren't we? Mostly?

[Troy Towner]

ASRS Report



Troy


"tony roberts" > wrote in message
news:nospam-7E8DDE.22231620062004@shawnews...
> I have to make a decision that could have a big impact on a fellow pilot
> and I would appreciate knowing what you would do in my situation - Here
> are the basic facts:
> Today I, along with a pilot passenger (witness) went to a fly-in - lots
> of planes arriving in short time frame.
> Active runway was 14, lh downwind, circuit height 3000 ft.
> We called 5 miles out (procedure) and received a response from another
> pilot "Joining 17 in 2 minutes".
> I responded, "are you arriving xxx airport - there is no 17"
> Response - "sorry I meant 35".
> I reply, there is no 35 - the runways are 14 and 32. 14 is active,
> downwind is lh, circuit is 3000 ft.
> Response - circling over 35 losing altitude.
> Me - I am approaching threshold of 32 at 3000ft to join downwind left
> 14. There is no 35 and you should not be descending over the runway.
> Response - I am at 5500 descending for 35.
> Me - I repeat this airport is 14 and 32 - circuit height is 3000 ft. We
> are about to cross midfield to join downwind left 14.
> Response - Sorry I meant 32 - I am on downwind left 32.
> (32 if it was active - is downwind right)
> Me - You are on head on collision course with me- I am in immediate
> emergency descent and crossing to midfield (no choice - mountains in
> other direction)
> Response - Well - I'm trying to land here! Huh?
> Me - XXX Radio - are you guys listening to this? I could really use your
> help here right now (I admit - I got VERY rattled)
> XXX Radio - Errr aircraft xxx active is downwind left 14.
> So I land.
> And then this plane comes in and bounces nose wheel to mains - 4 or 5
> times.
> So I'm out of the plane and I meet a friend who arrived before me. And
> that was when I found out that our radio calls had been broadcast via
> loudspeakers to over 1000 spectators.
> And my friend said, "I am really embarrassed about this, because I have
> been trying to help this pilot (who has a PPL and over 100 hours) but
> she is totally clueless.
> So the pilot now taxis next to my friends aircraft , taxis into the
> grass/soft dirt - gets stuck trying to turn, applys FULL power and
> sprays the side of my friends aircraft with dirt & stones - and keeps
> doing it - because she is so clueless she doesn't know what she is doing.
> Moving forward - I watched her depart.
> Radio at taxiway - Aircraft calling on final - which airport are you
> landing at - I kid you not.
> Aircraft on final - 14 XXX
> He lands.
> Another aircraft calls final 14 xxx
> Response - Aircraft on final - which airport are you landing at?
> Aircraft on final - 14 XXX
> And yet another aircraft calls final.
> "Listen - I'm waiting to take off here"
> He lands.
> She has about 8 aircraft behind her.
> Now she does her runup.
> Her call - XXX taking off. (No runway - just taking off).
> Of the approx 500 aircraft that took off here today, this was the ONLY
> one that didn't backtrack.
> With nosewheel up way to soon for density altitude she took off, stall
> horn wailing as she skimmed the trees and departed for home.
> Would you report her - or would you forget it?
> I'm having a hard time thinking of reporting her,
> I'll have a harder time if I do nothing and she crashes next week.
> What would you do?
> Thanks
> Tony
>
> --
>
> Tony Roberts
> PP-ASEL
> VFR OTT
> Night
> Almost Instrument :)
> Cessna 172H C-GICE

[zatatime]

On Tue, 22 Jun 2004 09:42:39 -0700, "Tom Sixkiller"
> wrote:

>
>"zatatime" > wrote in message
...
>> On Tue, 22 Jun 2004 05:53:15 -0700, "Tom Sixkiller"
>> > wrote:
>>
>> >According to the original post, there were quite a few witnesses.
>>
>> None of whom frequent this group, which still leaves us making a
>> determination (suggestion) based one one person's point of view.
>
>I didn't know we were expected to make a determination, only a WAG as to
>what he should do: report, or not report. I expect $12 a day if I gotta do
>Jury Duty.

LOL. We only get $5 where I'm from. You hit my point exactly. One
man's wild ass guess can be interpreted by another as an appropriate
course of action. My goal was to merely temper the Hang 'em High
routine that appeared to be going on. Am I right or wrong? Don't
know, just sharing my opinion.
>
>> >> It's almost as if no one here has ever made a mistake, and that they
>> >> are as close to perfect pilots as anyone can be.
>> >
>> >Not that boneheaded of mistakes.
>>
>> Are you sure, No One who has Ever posted here has not made One
>> significant error? Just seems too absolute a statement to me.
>
>We're all still alive, aren't we? Mostly?
>
As is the individual who's subject in this thread. And I hope we all
stay that way for a long time!

[zatatime]

On Tue, 22 Jun 2004 09:29:42 -0700, "Peter Duniho"
> wrote:

>"zatatime" > wrote in message
...
>> And that person is using input from this group as a barometer for his
>> actions.
>
>And yet, we are not the ones making the decision. Whatever happened to
>personal responsibility? Oh, that's right...there's no such thing anymore.

That's right, the lawyers took that one away from us a long time ago.
I think it started with a hot cup of coffee (maybe even before).
>
>> [...] If the people making those opinions were not there to
>> witness it they really don't know what transpired.
>
>If the people making those opinions WERE there, they could take action
>themselves, rather than providing insight to someone else who WAS there. By
>your logic, no one should ever seek counsel from someone else. That's a
>pretty dumb conclusion, IMHO.
>
Holy jumping to conclusions Batman. How in heaven did you get that
from my comment? You definitely seem to be reading into this far more
deeply than the sentence warrants..

>> From time to time we see a "What Would You Do" type of post.
>> Generally the crowd chants Take Action with the Feds.
>
>Yes, it does, now and then. So?
>
So I believe that mentality can do more harm than good when applied
within this forum.

>> This opinion
>> did not come out of my ass at all, but is based on what I have seen
>> here over time.
>
>How do you conclude from recommendations that dangerous behavior be reported
>to the FAA, that "no one here has ever made a mistake"? The two are
>completely unrelated.
>
>Your statement that "no one here has ever made a mistake" did indeed come
>right out of your ass. It's a completely unjustified conclusion. No one
>here ever claimed that they never made a mistake (well, perhaps excepting
>one particular trollish controller), nor do comments suggesting a dangerous
>pilot be reported imply any such thing.
>
>Pete
>
I never said "no one here has ever made a mistake." You are cropping
my sentences to suit your own purpose, but I guess that is to be
expected from someone who needs to make personal attacks against
another for voicing his own opinion.

If you'd read my statements in context I think you'll understand (or
maybe not) that the Prosecute now ask questions later mentality that
seemed to be prevalent in this and other threads gives the appearance
that only the best pilot's frequent these groups. While I'd like to
believe that about myself, I'd never be that foolish. I know I'm only
as good as my worst day.

z

[lardsoup]

So long as she landed on 14 she flew a left upwind to 14. Doesn't matter
what radio call she used. If she called a left downwind for 32 we all
should know where she is. The original poster was flying the wrong pattern
if he was right upwind for 14 when 14 is a left pattern.

"Gary Drescher" > wrote in message
news:sXUBc.92880$Sw.18279@attbi_s51...
> "C J Campbell" > wrote in message
> ...
> > First of all, what would you report her for? I am having difficulty
> finding
> > an actual FAR violation here, though it appears that everyone, including
> > yourself, was flying some sort of non-standard pattern.
>
> Flying a left pattern for a runway designated as right-traffic violates
> 91.126b or 91.127a.
>
> --Gary
>
>

[Peter Duniho]

"zatatime" > wrote in message
...
> [...]
> I never said "no one here has ever made a mistake."

You wrote: "It's almost as if no one here has ever made a mistake, and that
they are as close to perfect pilots as anyone can be."

> You are cropping my sentences to suit your own purpose, but I guess
> that is to be expected from someone who needs to make personal
> attacks against another for voicing his own opinion.

What you wrote is in black and white for anyone to read, yet you deny it?
Wow.

As for personal attacks, you're the only one making those around here. You
imply that people claim to not have made a mistake, when no such claim has
been made, and you use that implication to denounce people who write
something you simply don't care for.

> If you'd read my statements in context I think you'll understand (or
> maybe not) that the Prosecute now ask questions later mentality that
> seemed to be prevalent in this and other threads gives the appearance
> that only the best pilot's frequent these groups.

And then you make the same implication you deny, in the very post in which
you denied it. Amazing.

Pete

[zatatime]

On Tue, 22 Jun 2004 14:29:46 -0700, "Peter Duniho"
> wrote:

>"zatatime" > wrote in message
...
>> [...]
>> I never said "no one here has ever made a mistake."
>
>You wrote: "It's almost as if no one here has ever made a mistake, and that
>they are as close to perfect pilots as anyone can be."
>
>> You are cropping my sentences to suit your own purpose, but I guess
>> that is to be expected from someone who needs to make personal
>> attacks against another for voicing his own opinion.
>
>What you wrote is in black and white for anyone to read, yet you deny it?
>Wow.
>
>As for personal attacks, you're the only one making those around here. You
>imply that people claim to not have made a mistake, when no such claim has
>been made, and you use that implication to denounce people who write
>something you simply don't care for.
>
>> If you'd read my statements in context I think you'll understand (or
>> maybe not) that the Prosecute now ask questions later mentality that
>> seemed to be prevalent in this and other threads gives the appearance
>> that only the best pilot's frequent these groups.
>
>And then you make the same implication you deny, in the very post in which
>you denied it. Amazing.
>
>Pete
>
I guess the (or maybe not) holds true for your (lack of)
understanding.

z

[gatt]

"Michael 182" > wrote in message

> The jerk
> was yelling at me that if I couldn't land shorter than that I shouldn't be
> landing at "his" airport. I can just picture him "reporting" me, and
having
> to deal with a FSDO investigation or some such thing.

Those are good points, Micheal. If I reported her to the FSDO, I'd have the
guts to give my name and number so that I could contribute what I saw if
necessary.

But if I saw a pilot knowingly putting other pilots and aircraft in danger,
I'd definately want to do something to prevent him/her from doing it again,
and cussing her out isn't an option.
-c

[gatt]

"Michael 182" > wrote in message

> > > What does "report her" mean? Why should the FSDO care what I say when
I
> > > "report" a fellow pilot?
> >
> > They are the ones in charge of enforcing the FARs.
>
> Right, but it is my word against hers. Why should they believe me?

Because other people might have reported her too. If not, at least you made
a best effort instead of shrugging the whole thing off and hoping somebody
doesn't get killed by her irresponsibility next time.

Here's an anecdote. In 1990 or so, a Lake flew under the bridges in
downtown Portland, Oregon in the middle of the day, and the FAA and police
were looking all over for the guy. I saw a Lake that fit the exact
description sitting outside a hangar at TTD, having just landed, that very
day. Didn't report it, although Lake amphibs are pretty rare out here.
Should I have reported it?

-c

[gatt]

"zatatime" > wrote in message

> I really am amazed at how quickly this group seems to hang people and
> almost unanimously declare that someone should be referred to the
> authorities when all they really have to go by is one persons opinion.

Well, that's why we're just talking about it here and not calling the FAA,
isn't it?

If I saw it, I would have probably reported it because somebody like me, or
my family, or my CFI or friends who fly, or the offending pilot and her
passengers, might be in grave danger.
Similarly, as an avid boater on the Columbia River, I do not hesitate to
report flagrantly irresponsible activity by other boaters when I see them
put other people in harm's way.

-c

[Michael 182]

"gatt" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Michael 182" > wrote in message
>
> > > > What does "report her" mean? Why should the FSDO care what I say
when
> I
> > > > "report" a fellow pilot?
> > >
> > > They are the ones in charge of enforcing the FARs.
> >
> > Right, but it is my word against hers. Why should they believe me?
>
> Because other people might have reported her too. If not, at least you
made
> a best effort instead of shrugging the whole thing off and hoping somebody
> doesn't get killed by her irresponsibility next time.
>
> Here's an anecdote. In 1990 or so, a Lake flew under the bridges in
> downtown Portland, Oregon in the middle of the day, and the FAA and police
> were looking all over for the guy. I saw a Lake that fit the exact
> description sitting outside a hangar at TTD, having just landed, that very
> day. Didn't report it, although Lake amphibs are pretty rare out here.
> Should I have reported it?

Absolutely not. You don't know it was the same Lake. You don't even know it
was a Lake that flew under the bridge (other than someone else's ID, which,
unless it was by a pilot is pretty iffy). You don't know the circumstances
of flying under the bridge, if in fact, that really happened. Maybe he was
landing legitimately and taxiied under the bridge. I have no idea what the
seaplane rules are, do you? And, aside from everything else, I really have
no problem with someone flying under a bridge. I wouldn't do it, but
barnstormers used to do this sort of thing all the time.

Michael



>
> -c
>
>

[gatt]

"Teacherjh" > wrote in message

> Ok... suppose YOU were the FAA... and the incident occured exactly the way
it
> was portrayed in the original post, and it was reported to the FAA (you).
>
> What would you (were you the FAA) do?

Oooh. Me me me!!! :>

Assuming there wasn't some huge bureaucratic procedure, and I could just
pick up the phone and begin an investigation, I'd let the pilot know she had
been reported and ask her a few basic questions: What is her opinion of
what happened, how current is her ticket, last flight review, logged hours,
how often she flies, were there circumstances that caused her urgency, etc.
Not adversarial, just an attempt to get an idea of the person who has been
reported and the full details of the situation. That might, as a side
effect, be enough to make her aware of her activity.

If she balked or gave unsatisfactory information, I'd contact the owner of
the aircraft and let that person know that his/her aircraft might
potentially be involved in an FAA investigation, and why. Would have had to
have gotten that information anyway to find out who was PIC of the reported
aircraft, but I wouldn't rat out the pilot during that process.

I -might- ask to review her logbook and then advise her of what she did
wrong, the problems it might cause, etc. If the FAA never heard another
report about her flying again, it shouldn't be a problem to anybody at all,
but if further activity was reported the matter would have to be escalated.

Would that be satisfactory?

-c

[gatt]

"lardsoup" > wrote in message news:Iw1Cc.116832$Gx4.22254@bgtnsc

> So long as she landed on 14 she flew a left upwind to 14. Doesn't matter
> what radio call she used. If she called a left downwind for 32 we all
> should know where she is. The original poster was flying the wrong
pattern
> if he was right upwind for 14 when 14 is a left pattern.

I'd report her anyway. If she didn't do anything wrong, the FAA wouldn't
put anything on her (assuming for the sake of discussion a fair FAA.) But
the flak they give her might give her incentive to pay more attention to her
flying, which is in everybody's best interest.

-c

[Bill Denton]

Can you spell L - A - W - Y - E - R?

Nobody in their right mind would answer questions like that for someone who
just called them up on the phone, and if someone from the FAA or LEA showed
up at the door with credentials the pilot wouldn't talk to them without a
lawyer present.

It would be nice if we could still resolve situations like this with a phone
call, but that went out the door when the 20th century came in.



"gatt" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Teacherjh" > wrote in message
>
> > Ok... suppose YOU were the FAA... and the incident occured exactly the
way
> it
> > was portrayed in the original post, and it was reported to the FAA
(you).
> >
> > What would you (were you the FAA) do?
>
> Oooh. Me me me!!! :>
>
> Assuming there wasn't some huge bureaucratic procedure, and I could just
> pick up the phone and begin an investigation, I'd let the pilot know she
had
> been reported and ask her a few basic questions: What is her opinion of
> what happened, how current is her ticket, last flight review, logged
hours,
> how often she flies, were there circumstances that caused her urgency,
etc.
> Not adversarial, just an attempt to get an idea of the person who has been
> reported and the full details of the situation. That might, as a side
> effect, be enough to make her aware of her activity.
>
> If she balked or gave unsatisfactory information, I'd contact the owner of
> the aircraft and let that person know that his/her aircraft might
> potentially be involved in an FAA investigation, and why. Would have had
to
> have gotten that information anyway to find out who was PIC of the
reported
> aircraft, but I wouldn't rat out the pilot during that process.
>
> I -might- ask to review her logbook and then advise her of what she did
> wrong, the problems it might cause, etc. If the FAA never heard another
> report about her flying again, it shouldn't be a problem to anybody at
all,
> but if further activity was reported the matter would have to be
escalated.
>
> Would that be satisfactory?
>
> -c
>
>

[Dave Stadt]

"gatt" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Teacherjh" > wrote in message
>
> > Ok... suppose YOU were the FAA... and the incident occured exactly the
way
> it
> > was portrayed in the original post, and it was reported to the FAA
(you).
> >
> > What would you (were you the FAA) do?
>
> Oooh. Me me me!!! :>
>
> Assuming there wasn't some huge bureaucratic procedure, and I could just
> pick up the phone and begin an investigation, I'd let the pilot know she
had
> been reported and ask her a few basic questions: What is her opinion of
> what happened, how current is her ticket, last flight review, logged
hours,
> how often she flies, were there circumstances that caused her urgency,
etc.
> Not adversarial, just an attempt to get an idea of the person who has been
> reported and the full details of the situation. That might, as a side
> effect, be enough to make her aware of her activity.
>
> If she balked or gave unsatisfactory information, I'd contact the owner of
> the aircraft and let that person know that his/her aircraft might
> potentially be involved in an FAA investigation, and why. Would have had
to
> have gotten that information anyway to find out who was PIC of the
reported
> aircraft, but I wouldn't rat out the pilot during that process.
>
> I -might- ask to review her logbook and then advise her of what she did
> wrong, the problems it might cause, etc. If the FAA never heard another
> report about her flying again, it shouldn't be a problem to anybody at
all,
> but if further activity was reported the matter would have to be
escalated.
>
> Would that be satisfactory?
>
> -c

Any sane person would hang up on you within 10 microseconds. Hand over log
books to a stranger playing pattern cop.....oh, sure.

[Peter Duniho]

"gatt" > wrote in message
...
> [...] Didn't report it, although Lake amphibs are pretty rare out here.

Funny you should say that. The Pacific Northwest (in which I include the
Portland area) is the region with the second-most number of Lake amphibs,
after the southeast US (mainly Florida).

> Should I have reported it?

If you didn't see the airplane flying under the bridge, what would there
have been for you to report?

Pete

[xeM]

Shes a Witch!
Burn Her!!!

[Snowbird]

tony roberts > wrote in message news:<nospam-7E8DDE.22231620062004@shawnews>...

> Active runway was 14, lh downwind, circuit height 3000 ft.
> We called 5 miles out (procedure) and received a response from another
<...>
> Me - I am approaching threshold of 32 at 3000ft to join downwind left
> 14. There is no 35 and you should not be descending over the runway.
> Response - I am at 5500 descending for 35.

Tony, I can tell your intentions are good, but just FYI

If the goal is improved safety, telling anyone "you should not be
doing X" over the frequency can be counter-productive. It can result
in a response about what you shouldn't be doing, in the opinion of
other pilots (you shouldn't be joining the pattern at the threshold,
you should be joining downwind midfield on a 45 degree angle, sort
of thing). If you allow yourself to get drawn in to responding (no
matter how *right* or correct or justified you are), the result is a
clogged frequency and decreased situational awareness.

I like the advice I received from an 8,000 hr pilot when I went to
pick up my plane. If you're not happy with what's going on in the
pattern or there is confusion, Get Outta There. Come back in 10
minutes.

> And my friend said, "I am really embarrassed about this, because I have
> been trying to help this pilot (who has a PPL and over 100 hours) but
> she is totally clueless.

Is your friend a CFI? Is he based at the same field?

One suggestion for the US, which may have an analogous program in
Canada, is the Aviation Safety Counselor program. If Garner Miller
is lurking here perhaps he'll comment, he was one. Usually they are
CFIs designated by the FAA as ASCs. If someone is involved with the
FAA over a violation, one possible outcome is to send them to an ASC
for remedial training.

The point is, you don't need to involve the FAA, you can contact an
ASC (or your friend can) and ask them to offer to work with this
pilot.
(translate to Canadian analogues)

> With nosewheel up way to soon for density altitude she took off, stall
> horn wailing as she skimmed the trees and departed for home.

How do you know the stall horn was wailing?

Did either of you politely point out that she'd given your friend's
airplane a mud bath?

> Would you report her - or would you forget it?

I'm unclear on exactly what you want to report her for? Not being
from Canada, I don't want to make assumptions about what is or
isn't a violation there?

Best,
Sydney

[lardsoup]

What would you report? That she made a mistake on her radio calls and
another pilot flying a non-standard pattern got freaked out?

"gatt" > wrote in message
...
>
> "lardsoup" > wrote in message
news:Iw1Cc.116832$Gx4.22254@bgtnsc
>
> > So long as she landed on 14 she flew a left upwind to 14. Doesn't
matter
> > what radio call she used. If she called a left downwind for 32 we all
> > should know where she is. The original poster was flying the wrong
> pattern
> > if he was right upwind for 14 when 14 is a left pattern.
>
> I'd report her anyway. If she didn't do anything wrong, the FAA wouldn't
> put anything on her (assuming for the sake of discussion a fair FAA.)
But
> the flak they give her might give her incentive to pay more attention to
her
> flying, which is in everybody's best interest.
>
> -c
>
>
>

[Michael]

"gatt" > wrote
> I'd report her anyway. If she didn't do anything wrong, the FAA wouldn't
> put anything on her (assuming for the sake of discussion a fair FAA.)

Check this out before you spread any more fairy tales like the one
about the fair FAA:

http://www.avweb.com/pdf/brinell_report.pdf

Remember - with the FAA, there is no due process and no
accountability. Reporting someone to the FAA is NOT like reporting
someone to the police. It's much more like exercising vigilante
justice yourself.

Michael

[Michael]

(Snowbird) wrote
> One suggestion for the US, which may have an analogous program in
> Canada, is the Aviation Safety Counselor program.

While there are ASC's who are good people and good pilots (and in fact
I know a couple) in my experience they are the exception, not the
rule. The majority of the ones I know are really scary, and about a
quarter of them have wrecked airplanes, usually more than one. I
would not consider an ASC a solution.

Michael

[tony roberts]

Thanks for all of your responses - I appreciate them.
For those that thought that I was wrong in the pattern that I flew, I
should mention that for the sake of brevity I didn't post every detail.
My pattern was correct. As I mentioned in my previous post we had a
tower for this event, and due to a gyrocopter aerial display that
coincided with my (and several others) arrival I was asked to enter from
a different angle than the usual (in Canada) 90 degrees to midfield (yes
I am aware that it is 45 degrees in the US, but this is Canada). So I
was asked to join an upwind, prior to turning to cross midfield to join
downwind. But none of that is the point of my question, which has now
been resolved.

Earlier this week I attended the funeral of Vern Hupp. Vern was a friend
of mine, and he was killed last week when his 1944 Harvard (Texan 6A in
the US) Crashed and burned shortly after takeoff from Oroville
Washington.
This was my third funeral this year, and it had a far bigger impact on
me than I expected it to have. The lady that I wrote about also moved in
this circle, so after the funeral I asked about how to contact her and
then I went to see her.
And here is what I told her -
I told her that I had just come from my friends funeral, and that he
died in a plane crash (she knew about the crash)
And I told her that in my own opinion, she had endangered several
people, including me, the previous week,
And I told her that I honestly considered her to be an accident waiting
to happen,
And I told her that I was here to talk to her about that, because I
would not stand by and watch her kill herself, and possibly several
others.

And she was relieved. Isn't that great?
She thanked me,
She acknowledged that she shared the same concerns that I did,
And she agreed that her next ride would be a checkride with a CFI.

and I discovered a couple of other things.
She was 75 years old - I didn't know that.
She was a lowtime pilot, who obtained her licence 2 years ago, then
didn't fly for 2 years, then bought a plane.
She had only owned the plane for 3 weeks - she was a frightened new
pilot.

I liked her, and we formed a good relationship, and she was relieved
when I- right then - booked her a 2 hour check flight. And she readily
agreed that she would follow whatever advice resulted from the
checkflight.

So - To those who told me I was intefereing and to stay out of it - I'm
sorry but you were dead wrong - she was desperately looking for someone
to save her from herself and that is what I did.

for those who told me to report her, I believe that you were absolutely
right, although in thee final analysis I didn't - through tragic
circumstances I found another way to reach the same goal.

Either way, I thank all 49 of you for your comments - I respect them
all, even though I don't agree with them all.

Thanks

Tony

--

Tony Roberts
PP-ASEL
VFR OTT
Night
Almost Instrument :)
Cessna 172H C-GICE

[[email protected]]

On Thu, 01 Jul 2004 06:53:30 GMT, tony roberts >
wrote:

>I liked her, and we formed a good relationship, and she was relieved
>when I- right then - booked her a 2 hour check flight. And she readily
>agreed that she would follow whatever advice resulted from the
>checkflight.
>
>So - To those who told me I was intefereing and to stay out of it - I'm
>sorry but you were dead wrong - she was desperately looking for someone
>to save her from herself and that is what I did.

Wow, good for you. Thanks for following through.

Corky Scott

[zatatime]

On Thu, 01 Jul 2004 06:53:30 GMT, tony roberts >
wrote:

>I liked her, and we formed a good relationship, and she was relieved
>when I- right then - booked her a 2 hour check flight. And she readily
>agreed that she would follow whatever advice resulted from the
>checkflight.

A much better way to handlr things. You did the right thing and
learned alot about this person too. You should feel good about
yourself in the fact you dealt with it one on one first. I doubt this
would have been the outcome if you'd have involved the feds right
away.

Thanks for the update, nice job, and I'm sorry about your friend.
z

[Michael 182]

> wrote in message
...
> On Thu, 01 Jul 2004 06:53:30 GMT, tony roberts >
> wrote:
>
> >I liked her, and we formed a good relationship, and she was relieved
> >when I- right then - booked her a 2 hour check flight. And she readily
> >agreed that she would follow whatever advice resulted from the
> >checkflight.
> >
> >So - To those who told me I was intefereing and to stay out of it - I'm
> >sorry but you were dead wrong - she was desperately looking for someone
> >to save her from herself and that is what I did.

Glad it worked out.

Two points -

1) I don't think anyone said ignore her - they (including me) said contact
her privately, if at all, which is what you did.

2) I'm sorry, but 75 or 20 - if she is going up in the sky she needs to take
more responsibility. "desperately looking for someone to save her from
herself and that is what I did" is only acceptable if she was not planning
to fly again anyway until she worked with a CFI. The point is YOU should not
be "saving" her - if she can't "save" herself through her own proactive
efforts at remedial training, or whatever she needs, she should probably not
be flying.


Michael

>
> Wow, good for you. Thanks for following through.
>
> Corky Scott
>