Which PLB?

[Brian[_1_]]

My search didn't reveal a recent discussion of whats currently available in PLB's.

W&W shows two...
Kannad XS-4
Fast find 220 PLB

What are the advantages of each?

Are there other better ones?

Seems like the biggest issue is that when the battery life is up you essentially have to buy a new one as it costs almost as much to replace the battery as a new PLB costs. Are there better options?

Brian

[Dan Marotta]

My wife and I each carry one of these, I while flying, she while hiking:
http://www.acrartex.com/products/catalog/personal-locator-beacons/resqlink-plb/


"Brian" > wrote in message
...
> My search didn't reveal a recent discussion of whats currently available
> in PLB's.
>
> W&W shows two...
> Kannad XS-4
> Fast find 220 PLB
>
> What are the advantages of each?
>
> Are there other better ones?
>
> Seems like the biggest issue is that when the battery life is up you
> essentially have to buy a new one as it costs almost as much to replace
> the battery as a new PLB costs. Are there better options?
>
> Brian

[darrylr]

On Monday, March 31, 2014 4:35:42 PM UTC-7, Brian wrote:
> My search didn't reveal a recent discussion of whats currently available in PLB's.
>
>
>
> W&W shows two...
>
> Kannad XS-4
>
> Fast find 220 PLB
>
>
>
> What are the advantages of each?
>
>
>
> Are there other better ones?
>
>
>
> Seems like the biggest issue is that when the battery life is up you essentially have to buy a new one as it costs almost as much to replace the battery as a new PLB costs. Are there better options?
>
>
>
> Brian

Yes the battery replacement cost can be an issue, and often time to just buy a new unit.

You should look over the models you mentioned and the ACR ones that Dan pointed to. I've carried the McMurdo Fast Find but again, look at the product specs yourself. And what features you want may depend on if you also have a InReach or a SPOT.

I really just wanted to mention one issue and that is make sure the thing is properly attached to your parachute harness. There have been cases of folks attaching PLBs and SPOTs etc. to the harnesses in very bad ways. Alan Silver at Silver parachutes has written about this, and he also makes a nice pack that will hold many PLBs (or it it won't fit yours ask him about a custom one). See http://www.silverparachutes.com/smak-pak-survival-kits.

When you register the beacon with NOAA make sure you mention it is used in a glider and provide the glider type, N number and contest number. I also gave phone numbers for FBOs I frequently flew with. If you also carry a SPOT or InReach mention that as well so the SAR folks know to try to look there as well. Have a transponder, mention that as well. Then write up a note for your family, club/FBO, friends, fellow pilots etc. that describes the glider, describe all the SAR and tracking stuff in your glider, survival gear carried, mentions you have a parachute (or not) with the PLB attached to the parachute, include all the devices ID's, where to track you, and what they should do if concerned or aware you are in distress. Any known medical issues include it there. A brief sheet that is easy to email or fax to a Sheriff's office/SAR team without the folks who you may need to relying on having to think too much about it.

Darryl

[Richard[_9_]]

On Monday, March 31, 2014 5:23:13 PM UTC-7, darrylr wrote:
> On Monday, March 31, 2014 4:35:42 PM UTC-7, Brian wrote:
>
> > My search didn't reveal a recent discussion of whats currently available in PLB's.
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > W&W shows two...
>
> >
>
> > Kannad XS-4
>
> >
>
> > Fast find 220 PLB
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > What are the advantages of each?
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > Are there other better ones?
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > Seems like the biggest issue is that when the battery life is up you essentially have to buy a new one as it costs almost as much to replace the battery as a new PLB costs. Are there better options?
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > Brian
>
>
>
> Yes the battery replacement cost can be an issue, and often time to just buy a new unit.
>
>
>
> You should look over the models you mentioned and the ACR ones that Dan pointed to. I've carried the McMurdo Fast Find but again, look at the product specs yourself. And what features you want may depend on if you also have a InReach or a SPOT.
>
>
>
> I really just wanted to mention one issue and that is make sure the thing is properly attached to your parachute harness. There have been cases of folks attaching PLBs and SPOTs etc. to the harnesses in very bad ways. Alan Silver at Silver parachutes has written about this, and he also makes a nice pack that will hold many PLBs (or it it won't fit yours ask him about a custom one). See http://www.silverparachutes.com/smak-pak-survival-kits.
>
>
>
> When you register the beacon with NOAA make sure you mention it is used in a glider and provide the glider type, N number and contest number. I also gave phone numbers for FBOs I frequently flew with. If you also carry a SPOT or InReach mention that as well so the SAR folks know to try to look there as well. Have a transponder, mention that as well. Then write up a note for your family, club/FBO, friends, fellow pilots etc. that describes the glider, describe all the SAR and tracking stuff in your glider, survival gear carried, mentions you have a parachute (or not) with the PLB attached to the parachute, include all the devices ID's, where to track you, and what they should do if concerned or aware you are in distress. Any known medical issues include it there. A brief sheet that is easy to email or fax to a Sheriff's office/SAR team without the folks who you may need to relying on having to think too much about it.
>
>
>
> Darryl

http://www.craggyaero.com/elt.htm

Richard
www.craggyaero.com

[son_of_flubber]

On Monday, March 31, 2014 7:47:12 PM UTC-4, Dan Marotta wrote:
> My wife and I each carry one of these, I while flying, she while hiking:
>
> http://www.acrartex.com/products/catalog/personal-locator-beacons/resqlink-plb/

I've carried the same model for three years. It floats. I use it year round for a variety of outdoor activities and I carry it in my car in the winter should I skid over a hillside (that happens around here).

Acrartex has some new models, but one model that they introduced last fall was discontinued so beware of buying the discontinued model if you find it cheap. If you use the device for a legit rescue, Acrartex gives you a new one.

I use a pouch similar to this for secure attachment to parachute harness http://www.amazon.com/Military-Surplus-Desert-Flashbang-Grenade/dp/B00BQKL5Q6/ref=sr_1_2/178-0522485-7626011?ie=UTF8&qid=1396324507&sr=8-2&keywords=military+surplus+pouches

They are not too hard to find cheap and some websites give an accurate description of size. Get a pouch with a reliable Fastex buckle closure (not a snap)

[son_of_flubber]

On Monday, March 31, 2014 7:35:42 PM UTC-4, Brian wrote:

> Seems like the biggest issue is that when the battery life is up you essentially have to buy a new one as it costs almost as much to replace the battery as a new PLB costs.

Some of the newer models have seven year batteries. When my battery expires I plan to get a new unit because anything electronic (including batteries) gets better, cheaper, more reliable and lighter rapidly nowadays. Plus electronics can go bad with the passage of time and I want maximum reliability in my PLB. You can get a ResQlink PLB for $250, so cost is about $50 a year if you toss it when it expires.

[Nick Kennedy]

Newbie PLB questions:
Do you turn the unit on before you take off?

If not, how long might it take to boot up and acquire a GPS position fix?

Hypothetical situation: I'm landing out in a bad area, I have no radio contact with anyone, where I think I may get hurt. Can you press the Send Help button and then if you are OK after your dicey landing cancel the send help message you sent out?
I would hate send out the Please Help Me signal, get the system in gear, and then a few minutes later find out I'm OK. I would also hate to crash, get knocked unconscious and not be able to hit the button.. whats the protocol here?

[son_of_flubber]

An overlooked add-on capability of some PLBs lets you send "I'm OK" messages.
http://406link.com/ Every message shortens the internal battery life, so you need to use these messages sparingly. If I had this capability I would only use it (very rarely) to request a retrieve from a landout when my cell phone did not work and there was no landline close at hand. I think it is better to use a SPOT/INREACH for the "I'm OK" function and save the PLB battery for the real distress call that MUST succeed.

On Wednesday, April 2, 2014 10:07:00 AM UTC-4, Nick Kennedy wrote:
> Newbie PLB questions:
>
> Do you turn the unit on before you take off?

No.
>
>
>
> If not, how long might it take to boot up and acquire a GPS position fix?
>

This would depend on the model. Consult manufacturer. I think it is pretty fast and other factors will probably dominate your decision. The ResQLink has a short whip antenna (that you can deploy one handed in the cockpit, it is worthwhile to practice this in the dark.) The antenna and the 5 watt transmit pulse are two of the things that makes the distress call more likely to get through. The unit will at times send a distress signal without a GPS fix, then issue a second signal when it acquires a fix. As pointed out earlier, the unit only transmits when it can see a SARS satellite (so it does not waste battery).

>
>
> Hypothetical situation: I'm landing out in a bad area, I have no radio contact with anyone, where I think I may get hurt. Can you press the Send Help button and then if you are OK after your dicey landing cancel the send help message you sent out?

The only way to cancel the 'help' message would be to talk with the agency that is coordinating the rescue (or ask your proxy to do that via cellphone). They attempt to contact you to confirm the request for help. You might use the 406link.com to send an "I'm OK" to cancel the distress call. Or you could send the "I'm OK" on your SPOT/INREACH if you carry one.

The implicit contract with PLBs is that you reasonably exhaust all possibilities of 'self-rescue' before issuing the 'distress call'.

If you knew you were going to 'truly crash land' in trees or rough terrain, or remote and far from roads, I think it would be 'reasonable' to send the distress signal before landing, even if you were out of contact to cancel it later. I say this because 'walking out' in remote areas is sometimes not a reasonable option. It is better to stay with the glider. If the SARS decided that my call was unreasonable, I'd be willing to 'take the heat'.


>
> I would hate send out the Please Help Me signal, get the system in gear, and then a few minutes later find out I'm OK.


>I would also hate to crash, get knocked unconscious and not be able to hit the button.. whats the protocol here?

That is a possibility and it is why a SPOT/INREACH tracking is a prudent accessory.

PLBs do ONE THING extremely well, but they do not supersede SPOT/INREACH.

[Soartech]

> PLBs do ONE THING extremely well, but they do not supersede SPOT/INREACH.

Good observation. It won't be long before someone sees the advantage of this and comes up with a device that does BOTH.
I'll wait for that one.

[son_of_flubber]

On Wednesday, April 2, 2014 1:02:20 PM UTC-4, Soartech wrote:
> > PLBs do ONE THING extremely well, but they do not supersede SPOT/INREACH.
>
> Good observation. It won't be long before someone sees the advantage of this and comes up with a device that does BOTH.
>
> I'll wait for that one.

You may be waiting a very long time. One of the reliability factors in a PLB design is that it is a sealed unit with a high reliability well-tested and carefully manufactured lithium long-life battery, and the unit suffers no wear and tear from ongoing use.

One of the advantages of a SPOT/INREACH is that it has a replaceable battery, so you don't have to worry about running down the battery by making "I'm OK" transmissions and tracking.

A unit that covered both bases would not eliminate any of the need for circuit and battery redundancy.

[darrylr]

On Wednesday, April 2, 2014 10:02:20 AM UTC-7, Soartech wrote:
> > PLBs do ONE THING extremely well, but they do not supersede SPOT/INREACH.
>
>
>
> Good observation. It won't be long before someone sees the advantage of this and comes up with a device that does BOTH.
>
> I'll wait for that one.

Perfect is the Enemy of Good.

These PLBs and tracking devices cost a few hundred bucks, a few launches, an aero retreive or two, a couple of nice dinners out. By all means do an evaluation of your own risks and needs and buy whatever is appropriate, and that might be both. But waiting around for a device that does everything is unlikely to help anybody.

And in this case a combo device may be worse than two separate devices.

Waiting until somebody sees any advantage? That is not the issue, you think every vendor in this space does not fully understand the competing technology and have done so for years. And it has not happened yet. So maybe run the thought experiment and ask why.

Maybe more likely each vendor is worried their devices (e.g. PLB/tracker purchased at Amazon, REI etc.) are more impulse buys/purchased by not so sophisticated consumers who really don't know what much about what they are buying and therefore trying to explain these issues and justify a more expensive device is a marketing challenge they may not want to get into. And once a vendor does a combo device they are publicizing weaknesses in their standard devices. And batteries are going to be an issue. A manufacturer has to meet demanding PLB battery/shelf life/operating time specs and also allow a user to run down the device while using it for tracking. So two separate battery packs? One primary for the PLB and one rechargeable for the tracker? How much larger than the standard device can this be... give that batteries are a significant part of many of these products volume.

The redundancy of having two separate devices, with two separate battery packs, that signal distress/provide tracking by two entirely different means is a huge selling point in my book, much preferable if you are doing more extreme things than having a single device. And I want a PLB strapped to my harness, the tracking and some of the advanced two-way messaging features of an InReach may work better if the device is mounted in front of you on the glider not your parachute harness.

Darryl

[GC[_2_]]

On 3/04/2014 02:09, son_of_flubber wrote:
>
> PLBs do ONE THING extremely well, but they do not supersede SPOT/INREACH.

No. That's back to front. PLBs do one thing extremely well and
Spot/Inreach does NOT supersede them.

Spot/Inreach is an interesting toy. A PLB is the real thing.

GC

[son_of_flubber]

On Wednesday, April 2, 2014 9:28:28 PM UTC-4, GC wrote:

> Spot/Inreach is an interesting toy. A PLB is the real thing.

It's silly to turn this into a PC vs. MAC type argument.

The tracking and 'I'm OK' capabilities of SPOT/INREACH have real value and that base is not covered by a PLB.

[GC[_2_]]

On 3/04/2014 13:39, son_of_flubber wrote:
> On Wednesday, April 2, 2014 9:28:28 PM UTC-4, GC wrote:
>
>> Spot/Inreach is an interesting toy. A PLB is the real thing.
>
> It's silly to turn this into a PC vs. MAC type argument.
>
> The tracking and 'I'm OK' capabilities of SPOT/INREACH have real
> value and that base is not covered by a PLB.
>

Sorry. I'm not one of the IT passionistas and that's not what I
intended. The point I wanted to make is that a PLB and its capabilities
are defined by international agreements and specifications and if you
buy something called a PLB you know exactly what you're getting and you
know it will meet it's specs with near 100% reliability.

A Spot or Inreach box will (possibly) attempt to do what you think the
the maker has claimed if you have interpreted his advertsing accurately
(rather than the way he hopes you will - this is the nub of the "Aegean"
case). If it can't/doesn't do it, that is your problem unless you have
a deep pocket.

I repeat, a PLB is the real thing, Spot/Inreach is (so far) an
interesting toy.

GC

[Dan Marotta]

To answer the original question - my PLB transmits an emergency signal as
soon as you turn it on. You DO NOT deploy the antenna and turn it on uless
you really mean it. Otherwise it hangs placidly in a zipper case on the
right shoulder of my parachute harness.


"GC" > wrote in message
eb.com...
> On 3/04/2014 13:39, son_of_flubber wrote:
>> On Wednesday, April 2, 2014 9:28:28 PM UTC-4, GC wrote:
>>
>>> Spot/Inreach is an interesting toy. A PLB is the real thing.
>>
>> It's silly to turn this into a PC vs. MAC type argument.
>>
>> The tracking and 'I'm OK' capabilities of SPOT/INREACH have real
>> value and that base is not covered by a PLB.
>>
>
> Sorry. I'm not one of the IT passionistas and that's not what I intended.
> The point I wanted to make is that a PLB and its capabilities are defined
> by international agreements and specifications and if you buy something
> called a PLB you know exactly what you're getting and you know it will
> meet it's specs with near 100% reliability.
>
> A Spot or Inreach box will (possibly) attempt to do what you think the the
> maker has claimed if you have interpreted his advertsing accurately
> (rather than the way he hopes you will - this is the nub of the "Aegean"
> case). If it can't/doesn't do it, that is your problem unless you have a
> deep pocket.
>
> I repeat, a PLB is the real thing, Spot/Inreach is (so far) an interesting
> toy.
>
> GC

[Brian[_1_]]

What happens if you moving when you activate it?
If a GPS model how often does it update the postion?

Brian

[darrylr]

On Thursday, April 3, 2014 7:27:46 PM UTC-7, Brian wrote:
> What happens if you moving when you activate it?
>
> If a GPS model how often does it update the postion?
>
> Brian

Read the manual for your particular unit. Then read it again. And make sure there is a manual or instruction sheet packed with the device. Any of these devices including InReach and SPOT, if really in distress there is stuff in the manual you may need to know.

Most modern PLB typically acquire a GPS fix fairly quickly (~ minute) and then renew that every 30 minutes. So if you move PLB the GPS location will be slightly inaccurate for some time. Obviously these are intended to deal with walking/drifting speed type movements where it is not really an issue. With many searchers that will also do final homing on the beacons (406 or 121.5... in many cases it will be 121.5 MHz). Regardless of GPS data, when you activate the PLB a signal is sent and received within about 1 minute and contains your PLB unique serial number registered to you, and the SAR organizations will start things based on that even if it does not have your location information (say you are down in a canyon or under a heavy forest canopy and cannot get a GPS fix). And in that case the polar orbit SARSAT satellites will start triangulating your fix if they can see the (relatively powerful 406 Mhz beacon) signal and they'll often have a good location to within a few miles within ~30 minutes or so. Put the PLB somewhere with a good sky view and the beacon antenna properly erected and don't move it around or dick with it, so the satellites can do their stuff.

And read the manual about how to do proper tests on these devices, and do them.

The SPOT and InReach have more usability issues/confusion that a relatively simple PLB. What do the different LEDs *really* mean? If a SPOT status says there is no GPS fix are track, OK, or HELP messages sent at all? I know everybody knows the answer to all those questions... right? In a bad situation you will want the manual packed with you.

Darryl

[Dan Marotta]

Well said, Darryl.

And, at least for me, I could care less if everyone knows where I am every
minute of the day, even if I land out. My PLB is for emergency use only
(not a land out) and will not be taken out of its pouch until I'm ready to
activate it if I can. I will not be futzing with it during flight or
parachute descent. If I have no cell coverage, I'll start walking. If I
can't walk, I'll activate the PLB.

"darrylr" > wrote in message
...
On Thursday, April 3, 2014 7:27:46 PM UTC-7, Brian wrote:
> What happens if you moving when you activate it?
>
> If a GPS model how often does it update the postion?
>
> Brian

Read the manual for your particular unit. Then read it again. And make sure
there is a manual or instruction sheet packed with the device. Any of these
devices including InReach and SPOT, if really in distress there is stuff in
the manual you may need to know.

Most modern PLB typically acquire a GPS fix fairly quickly (~ minute) and
then renew that every 30 minutes. So if you move PLB the GPS location will
be slightly inaccurate for some time. Obviously these are intended to deal
with walking/drifting speed type movements where it is not really an issue.
With many searchers that will also do final homing on the beacons (406 or
121.5... in many cases it will be 121.5 MHz). Regardless of GPS data, when
you activate the PLB a signal is sent and received within about 1 minute and
contains your PLB unique serial number registered to you, and the SAR
organizations will start things based on that even if it does not have your
location information (say you are down in a canyon or under a heavy forest
canopy and cannot get a GPS fix). And in that case the polar orbit SARSAT
satellites will start triangulating your fix if they can see the (relatively
powerful 406 Mhz beacon) signal and they'll often have a good location to
within a few miles within ~30 minutes or so. Put the PLB somewhere with a
good sky view and the beacon antenna properly erected and don't move it
around or dick with it, so the satellites can do their stuff.

And read the manual about how to do proper tests on these devices, and do
them.

The SPOT and InReach have more usability issues/confusion that a relatively
simple PLB. What do the different LEDs *really* mean? If a SPOT status says
there is no GPS fix are track, OK, or HELP messages sent at all? I know
everybody knows the answer to all those questions... right? In a bad
situation you will want the manual packed with you.

Darryl

[son_of_flubber]

On Friday, April 4, 2014 9:18:09 AM UTC-4, Dan Marotta wrote:

> And, at least for me, I could care less if everyone knows where I am every
> minute of the day, even if I land out.

There are some interesting 'and then things went butt up' stories out there about how a scheduled "I'm OK" from SPOT was not delivered (Don't worry honey. I'll send you an "I'm OK" every day at noon). The person expecting the "I'm OK" panics and calls out SARS (or the sheriff).

Given the potential for dropped messages, it is asking for trouble to raise the expectation of a scheduled "I'm OK" message. The tracking feature is not quite so bad, because if a message is dropped, another one will be attempted in a few minutes (and hopefully it will get through).

> My PLB is for emergency use only
>
> (not a land out) and will not be taken out of its pouch until I'm ready to
>
> activate it if I can. I will not be futzing with it during flight or
>
> parachute descent. If I have no cell coverage, I'll start walking. If I
>
> can't walk, I'll activate the PLB.

Having gotten lost once in my younger and more foolish days on a 'short hike', I carry a compass for potential walkouts. It is really easy to get turned around here abouts.

[Brian[_1_]]

Thanks Darryl,

I don't current have a PLB, but have been looking at them. Hence the reason for the post. So I don't yet have a manual to read, and don't know what is common between units, so reading one manual might not apply to other units..

The question came up be cause I recently heard 2nd hand of someone inadvertently setting their PLB off in a rather high performance airplane. I was wonder what this looks like to the SAR folks. If it is 30 minutes in between GPS fixes then in this case they probably would have been 75 miles apart.

But the main reason I asked is so that I could understand what happens if it is intentionally set off and then the unit is moved by hiking out for example.

Thanks again

Brian

[son_of_flubber]

On Friday, April 4, 2014 11:59:22 AM UTC-4, Brian wrote:

>I recently heard 2nd hand of someone inadvertently setting their PLB off in a rather high performance airplane.

The ARC ResQLink has a 'mechanical safety interlock'. You have to unclip and rotate the spring antenna before you can physically push the distress button.

[John Clear]

In article >,
Brian > wrote:
>
>The question came up be cause I recently heard 2nd hand of someone
>inadvertently setting their PLB off in a rather high performance
>airplane. I was wonder what this looks like to the SAR folks. If it is
>30 minutes in between GPS fixes then in this case they probably would
>have been 75 miles apart.

SAR folks deal with moving beacons all the time. I'm not in CAP
any more and was out before 406+GPS beacons became available, but
I've chased moving planes and UPS trucks (remove the batteries
before sending an ELT/EPIRB in for repair) many times. Even with
a GPS position, there is still a 121.5 signal the SAR folks can
DF.

Even at 30 minute update intervals for GPS position, it is likely
that there will be multiple updates between the time the first
signal goes out and the SAR resources get on station for the search.
That will give them an idea of direction/heading to search.

The UPS trucks are one of the harder things to track since the
roofs are plasic, but the sides are metal. The satellites can get
a good singal, but from ground level the signal is blocked.

John
--
John Clear - http://www.clear-prop.org/

[darrylr]

On Friday, April 4, 2014 8:59:22 AM UTC-7, Brian wrote:
> Thanks Darryl,
>
>
>
> I don't current have a PLB, but have been looking at them. Hence the reason for the post. So I don't yet have a manual to read, and don't know what is common between units, so reading one manual might not apply to other units.
>
>
>
> The question came up be cause I recently heard 2nd hand of someone inadvertently setting their PLB off in a rather high performance airplane. I was wonder what this looks like to the SAR folks. If it is 30 minutes in between GPS fixes then in this case they probably would have been 75 miles apart.
>
>
>
> But the main reason I asked is so that I could understand what happens if it is intentionally set off and then the unit is moved by hiking out for example.
>
>
>
> Thanks again
>
>
>
> Brian

It takes some effort to set off a PLB. False activation is usually not a problem. And if you do stupidly push a button. You can immediately turn it off (the ~ 1 minute delay to first transmission is partially there to allow that... but it also allows getting a GPS Fix if possible). And if possible contact the rescue coordination center if you think the PLB has been set off accidentally. And if it has then your listed contacts may have been called by them. The USAF (not NOAA, not the Coast Guard) manages rescue coordination for inland rescue in the United States. http://www.1af.acc.af.mil/units/afrcc/pointsofcontact/index.asp

All the product manuals are online. Read them. I'd tend to give a lot of credit to the product with better documentation (I suspect ACR wins there).

The how frequently does the GPS update is a kind of geek question that is nice to know buy in practice PLBs tend to work very well, SAR *will* find you if the thing is able to transmit and is not damaged.

And with stories about chasing delivery vans, there have been a few glider trailers chased down with ELTs accidentally tripped off in the past. Presumably mostly with fiberglass or wood trailer tops.