Re: Garmin(R) G1000(TM) All-Glass Flightdeck Certified in the Cessna Skylane

[[email protected]]

On Mon, 21 Jun 2004 20:50:04 +0200 (CEST), Nomen Nescio
]> wrote:

>
>Looks like dials & needles are finally going the way of the dinosaur.
>
>I won't be shedding any tears. :-)

Has anyone stated what the price for this system costs, instead of the
old steam guages?

Corky Scott

[Andrew Gideon]

Nomen Nescio wrote:

> Looks like dials & needles are finally going the way of the dinosaur.

Given the age of the fleet, the numbers of new aircraft compared to old, and
the lack of an upgrade for older aircraft, D&N will be "with us" for some
time.

Of course, any given pilot may choose to "opt out" of D&N for a price.

- Andrew

[Teacherjh]

>Looks like dials & needles are finally going the way of the dinosaur.

Flying along, go to flip the pitot heat on but hit a bump (and thus the
master). Oops. Master back on.

Steam gauges: Instantly back on.

GPS: self test..... display database date disclaimer (wait for pilot to press
OK)... ask "set full fuel?".... wait for pilot to key in the actual amount of
fuel left (or more likely, just hit ENTER)... acquiring satellites....
acquiring satellites.... acquiring satellites.... Ok, moving map is on.
Flight plan is gone (did you save it to a memory location or just use the
default).... pilot hits FPL button, changes to list page, hits cursor button,
scrolls through the existing flight plan list looking for the one he was
flying... hit enter. "activate flight plan?".... hit ENTER.

Steam gauges and cockroaches will outlive all of technology.

Jose



--
(for Email, make the obvious changes in my address)

[Nathan D. Olmscheid]

I don't understand why people are so against new technology!!

As an IT Manager and a business owner of a webhosting and software design
company, I am anything but scared of the new technology. I get excited when
anything new comes along. Is it all because we NEED it. Heck no. Do I need
to be able to talk to my house to tell it to turn on lights, shut garage
door at 10 pm, switch to camera view on TV when someone at the front door,
etc? Nope. Is it fun and interesting. Sure is. Does it make certain things
easier....yeah. Am I so lazy that I need to talk to my house no. Its new
technology and I embrace it. If you are not interested in it, you aren't.
Some people just don't get that.

Whenever someone posts about the new panels, we always have people posting
about how the old stuff is so great. and making sarcastic posts like the one
I am replying to.

No where in the article do I see them say the old guages are horrible and
don't work. So why defend them. All they are saying is that there is
something new. Simple as that. If you don't like it, don't use it

> Flight plan is gone (did you save it to a memory location or just use the
> default).... pilot hits FPL button, changes to list page, hits cursor
button,
> scrolls through the existing flight plan list looking for the one he was
> flying... hit enter. "activate flight plan?".... hit ENTER

So is this a lot of work?? More work than doing a manual flight plan??
Hmmm??? From the sound of that paragraph it looks as though the person did
not know the system very well and thats why the flight plan is gone?? Hmmm..

Nathan


"Teacherjh" > wrote in message
...
> >Looks like dials & needles are finally going the way of the dinosaur.
>
> Flying along, go to flip the pitot heat on but hit a bump (and thus the
> master). Oops. Master back on.
>
> Steam gauges: Instantly back on.
>
> GPS: self test..... display database date disclaimer (wait for pilot to
press
> OK)... ask "set full fuel?".... wait for pilot to key in the actual
amount of
> fuel left (or more likely, just hit ENTER)... acquiring satellites....
> acquiring satellites.... acquiring satellites.... Ok, moving map is on.
> Flight plan is gone (did you save it to a memory location or just use the
> default).... pilot hits FPL button, changes to list page, hits cursor
button,
> scrolls through the existing flight plan list looking for the one he was
> flying... hit enter. "activate flight plan?".... hit ENTER.
>
> Steam gauges and cockroaches will outlive all of technology.
>
> Jose
>
>
>
> --
> (for Email, make the obvious changes in my address)

[Andrew Gideon]

Teacherjh wrote:


> GPS: self test..... display database date disclaimer (wait for pilot to
> press
> OK)... ask "set full fuel?".... wait for pilot to key in the actual
> amount of
> fuel left (or more likely, just hit ENTER)... acquiring satellites....
> acquiring satellites.... acquiring satellites.... Ok, moving map is on.
> Flight plan is gone (did you save it to a memory location or just use the
> default).... pilot hits FPL button, changes to list page, hits cursor
> button, scrolls through the existing flight plan list looking for the one
> he was
> flying... hit enter. "activate flight plan?".... hit ENTER.

First, both Garmin and B/K GPSs store the active flight plan past a
shutdown. Admittedly, the pilot will have to activate it, but this would
be the case whether the GPS were in a conventional panel or a glass panel.

Second, even if the GPS takes that time to restart (locating the overheads,
etc.), the rest of the panel can come alive more quickly. There's more to
the glass than just GPS, after all. In fact, shouldn't most of the PFD
come alive pretty much instantly (now that startup time isn't required for
the "electronic gyros")?

- Andrew

[Teacherjh]

>> I don't understand why people are so against new technology!!

I'm not against it when it makes life better (and GPS does make life better in
some ways). I am however against discarding old technology because it's old.
Heck, I'm old and I'm not ready for the scrap heap. :)

There is a big problem with even temporary loss of power to a GPS system, which
derives directly from its internal and systemic complexity. If you are being
bumped around in the clouds getting your sixth reroute, this is not the time to
have to start over with an initialization procedure, even if it would be fairly
simple on the ground or on a nice day.

I don't know about the rest of the electronic panel, but not all that is new is
better.

Jose



--
(for Email, make the obvious changes in my address)

[C J Campbell]

"Teacherjh" > wrote in message
...
> >Looks like dials & needles are finally going the way of the dinosaur.
>
> Flying along, go to flip the pitot heat on but hit a bump (and thus the
> master). Oops. Master back on.
>
> Steam gauges: Instantly back on.
>
> GPS: self test..... display database date disclaimer (wait for pilot to
press
> OK)... ask "set full fuel?".... wait for pilot to key in the actual
amount of
> fuel left (or more likely, just hit ENTER)... acquiring satellites....
> acquiring satellites.... acquiring satellites.... Ok, moving map is on.
> Flight plan is gone (did you save it to a memory location or just use the
> default).... pilot hits FPL button, changes to list page, hits cursor
button,
> scrolls through the existing flight plan list looking for the one he was
> flying... hit enter. "activate flight plan?".... hit ENTER.

This is a gross exaggeration. The GPS will be up and running in just a few
seconds. It will not lose any information. The current flight plan is always
flight plan 0.

Meanwhile, the loss of radios, etc., is no worse than it would be if you
shut off the master in any other airplane.

Besides, the GPS replaces no steam gauges, unless you want to call your old
navigation radios steam gauges. I know some old nav/comms that forget their
settings when they lose power.

The flight panel does have steam gauge equivalents, but these come up as
fast as real steam gauges. Plus, all the flight control instruments have
backups.

[Teacherjh]

>> This is a gross exaggeration.

I've flown behind the 430. It's not a gross exaggeration at all. Flight plan
0 disappeared. I had to respond to lawyer's prompts before the system started
up again, and I had to wait for satellite acquisition (took about fifteen
seconds, IIRC).

The VOR came back as if nothing happened.

Perhaps the glass panel's VORs and radios would come back right away too. I'm
mainly responding to the (all too pervasive) sentiment that the OP "won't shed
a tear" for the loss of steam gauges... and by implication, all the other
dinosaur stuff that this newfangled contraption replaces.

Me, I'm suspicious. Not all that is new is better. (if you don't believe me,
try running a PC <g>). Even now (especially on the East Coast) sometimes the
best use of a GPS under IFR is just direct to the first waypoint, because it
will change anyway.

>>
The flight panel does have steam gauge equivalents, but these come up as
fast as real steam gauges. Plus, all the flight control instruments have
backups.
<<

Glad to hear it.

Jose



--
(for Email, make the obvious changes in my address)

[Andrew Gideon]

Teacherjh wrote:

>>> This is a gross exaggeration.
>
> I've flown behind the 430. It's not a gross exaggeration at all. Flight
> plan
> 0 disappeared.

I fly behind 430s now. Flight plan 0 does not disappear. Perhaps you're
running an older version of the software?

> I had to respond to lawyer's prompts before the system
> started up again,

Well, this is true.

> and I had to wait for satellite acquisition (took about
> fifteen seconds, IIRC).

More or less. So? That would happen if the panel was glass or not.

>
> The VOR came back as if nothing happened.

I've never noticed at what point in the GPS startup the VOR receiver in the
430 starts working. I'll have to check that next time. I'd expect
"instantly", but I don't know this.

[...]

> Even now (especially on the East Coast) sometimes
> the best use of a GPS under IFR is just direct to the first waypoint,
> because it will change anyway.

Why cannot ATC "send" flight plans as part of a mode S upload? *That* would
be incredibly useful (at least for those of us around here).

- Andrew

[Teacherjh]

>>
I've never noticed at what point in the GPS startup the VOR receiver in the
430 starts working.
<<

I'm talking about a standalone steam gauge VOR. And while true, glass or no
glass, GPS needs to acquire satellites, my point is more along the line of
"it's not true that new is always better in every way" - glass or GPS or
Windows.

Jose



--
(for Email, make the obvious changes in my address)

[Andrew Gideon]

Teacherjh wrote:

>>>
> I've never noticed at what point in the GPS startup the VOR receiver in
> the 430 starts working.
> <<
>
> I'm talking about a standalone steam gauge VOR.

I understand. But the issue you've raised is comparing a glass panel to a
"steam gauge" panel. One variable in this comparison is how rapidly the
VORs will come back online. That's the issue to which I don't know the
answer...but I can check easily enough.

This isn't just for you. You've made me curious, since half my VOR receiver
capacity is in a 430.

> And while true, glass or
> no glass, GPS needs to acquire satellites, my point is more along the line
> of "it's not true that new is always better in every way" - glass or GPS
> or Windows.

I don't want to fall into a Windows debate here, but suffice it to say that
Windows fails your "new" test. It's only recently entered the 1980s in
terms of operating system (as opposed to all the other nonsense shoved on
top) technology.

Still, I agree in general that new does not imply better. On the other
hand, I do believe that Glass Panels are an improvement over Steam Gauges.
I've yet to try them myself <sob!> but every serious review speaks both of
the learning curve and the lack of interest in going back.

- Andrew

[kage]

******"it's not true that new is always better in every way"**** But in
Avionics it is true, VERY true.

There is NO comparison. The glass cockpit is vastly superior to the old
electro/mechanical gauges in EVERY respect, especially in reliability.

I spent decades flying corporate King Airs, all with the miserable old
stuff. The old stuff is pure junk and always VERY expensive to maintain.
This last decade I've been flying the Falcon 50EX and Lear 31A, both with
glass. Hands down winner. A good comparison would be the old Magnavox consol
TV, which needs a resident technician, and a modern TV, which never wears
out till you throw it away.

Karl
BE-30
CE-500
Lr-Jet
FA-50

"Teacherjh" > wrote in message
...
> >>
> I've never noticed at what point in the GPS startup the VOR receiver in
the
> 430 starts working.
> <<
>
> I'm talking about a standalone steam gauge VOR. And while true, glass or
no
> glass, GPS needs to acquire satellites, my point is more along the line of
> "it's not true that new is always better in every way" - glass or GPS or
> Windows.
>
> Jose
>
>
>
> --
> (for Email, make the obvious changes in my address)