Dogs flying

[Chuck]

Hi, all,

Does anyone have any suggestions for cutting down noise for the dogs?
We have 2 toy poodles who we love to take with us on plane trips.
Unfortunately, they don't enjoy it and I think it's because of the
noise. I don't think there are any "doggie" headsets available. Any
suggestions?

TIA, Chuck

[John Gaquin]

"Chuck" > wrote in message

> We have 2 toy poodles who we love to take with us on plane trips.
> Unfortunately, they don't enjoy it and I think it's because of the
> noise.

Chuck... It may well be the motion -- we've had that reaction to auto travel
with some pets, albeit no experience with pets flying. Do the poodles
protest car travel?

In any event, if they clearly do not enjoy the trips, you must leave them
behind. Forced travel would be abusive, imo.

[C J Campbell]

Dogs are more of a noise hazard than something that should be bothered by
noise. :-)

Anything that can stand their barking is not likely to suffer hearing loss
from a mere airplane. If you are still concerned about it, you can clamp
blocks of high density foam over their ears using a strap of some kind. I
don't think our Scottie would tolerate this for a minute, but, well, she's a
Scottie. She normally just sleeps and passes gas during a flight.

Dogs' heads vary in shape so much that it would be almost impossible to
produce commercially viable hearing protection. The biggest market would be
hunting dogs, since only a few kinds of dogs are used and there are a lot of
hunters. Lots of hunting and gun dog shops carry hearing protection for dog
owners, but none for the dogs.

[Shirley]

Chuck chuck_a_no_dirt wrote:

>Does anyone have any suggestions for cutting
>down noise for the dogs?
>[snip] I don't think there are any "doggie" headsets
>available. Any suggestions?

I did some extensive searching on this very subject several months ago. Some
people insisted that there *is* a company that makes doggie headsets, but
despite my diligent digging (no pun), I never found it/them. Someone posted a
picture of a labrador with a homemade headset consisting of skateboarder
kneepads (purchased at K-mart) with 1" foam attached to the underside attached
to two 1"-thick straps that wrap around the dog's head and fasten with Velcro.
The dog looked perfectly content wearing it, but of course, it *was* a lab --
unlike poodles, they're happy in just about any situation!

Of course, that contraption wouldn't work for a toy poodle or for my dog, a
Jack Russell Terrier -- those kneepads would cover her entire head!! Some
people take their dogs in airplanes with no ear protection whatsoever. I
discussed this with my veterinarian, and she assured me that she too had
friends who take their *two* labs between Phoenix and Tucson all the time with
no ear protection, and the dogs love it. Neither of the dogs come anymore when
they call them, but they insist there have been no ill effects!

I haven't tried taking my JRT with me yet but probably will at some point, in a
small crate in the back of a 152. If she appears to show discomfort or fear of
the noise, I won't continue, but it would be fun and convenient if she enjoyed
it ... could stay away longer!!

Please post if you are more successful than I was at finding those doggie
headsets that supposedly *do* exist.

--Shirley

[Shirley]

"C J Campbell" wrote:

>Anything that can stand their barking is not
>likely to suffer hearing loss from a mere airplane.

That's debatable. You likely wouldn't suffer hearing loss from your own yelling
either! But as a teenager, I remember reading about studies showing how
listening to our music at the volume and for the duration we listened to it
would eventually cause hearing loss, so doesn't it follow that prolonged
exposure to the noise of an airplane engine from inside the cockpit could do
the same? ... and God knows dog's ears are more sensitive than human ears. Some
veterinarians say it wouldn't be a problem; others say they should have
protection just like we do. Guess it boils down to what you and your dog are
comfortable with.

--Shirley

[C J Campbell]

"Shirley" > wrote in message
...
> "C J Campbell" wrote:
>
> >Anything that can stand their barking is not
> >likely to suffer hearing loss from a mere airplane.
>
> That's debatable. You likely wouldn't suffer hearing loss from your own
yelling
> either! But as a teenager, I remember reading about studies showing how
> listening to our music at the volume and for the duration we listened to
it
> would eventually cause hearing loss, so doesn't it follow that prolonged
> exposure to the noise of an airplane engine from inside the cockpit could
do
> the same? ... and God knows dog's ears are more sensitive than human ears.
Some
> veterinarians say it wouldn't be a problem; others say they should have
> protection just like we do. Guess it boils down to what you and your dog
are
> comfortable with.

Exposure to prolonged engine and propeller noise definitely will cause
hearing loss in humans, just as prolonged exposure to rock and roll will.
Dogs, however, can and do create noise that is just as loud and prolonged
without any apparent hearing loss on their part, despite the fact that
humans exposed to dogs' barking can lose their hearing.

Dogs can hear higher frequencies than we do, but it is doubtful that their
hearing is more sensitive than that of humans. Most dogs, in fact, do not
appear to hear all that well. It is too easy to sneak up on them, for
example, if you do it from downwind. They will not respond to whispered
commands. Dogs rely on their sense of smell more than anything else.

Unfortunately, there don't appear to be any serious studies measuring
hearing loss in dogs due to noise hazards. Anything veterinarians have to
say in this regard may be no better informed than what any dog owner would
say. It is all based on speculation and anecdotal experience.

[Kyler Laird]

Chuck > writes:

>Any
>suggestions?

Look for all of the other times it's been discussed.

--kyler

[Kyler Laird]

"C J Campbell" > writes:

>Dogs' heads vary in shape so much that it would be almost impossible to
>produce commercially viable hearing protection.

http://www.fortunecity.com/victorian/cheyne/213/id23_m.htm

--kyler

[Kyler Laird]

(Shirley) writes:

>That's debatable. You likely wouldn't suffer hearing loss from your own yelling
>either! But as a teenager, I remember reading about studies showing how
>listening to our music at the volume and for the duration we listened to it
>would eventually cause hearing loss, so doesn't it follow that prolonged
>exposure to the noise of an airplane engine from inside the cockpit could do
>the same?

Yes, dogs who ride in airplanes during their teens will almost certainly have
hearing loss in their twenties. It is likely to be so bad that they will be
unable to get even a Third Class Airman Medical.

--kyler

[S Green]

"Kyler Laird" > wrote in message
...
> "C J Campbell" > writes:
>
> >Dogs' heads vary in shape so much that it would be almost impossible to
> >produce commercially viable hearing protection.
>

Just put the dogs in the kennels. No noise either way.

[Shirley]

"C J Campbell" wrote:

>Exposure to prolonged engine and propeller noise
>definitely will cause hearing loss in humans, just as
>prolonged exposure to rock and roll will.

Then it follows that it *could* potentially cause hearing loss in dogs as well.
Just because a dog bark is loud and they carry on with it for extended periods
doesn't mean that has the same effect on their hearing as a constantly running
engine at that specific level.

>Dogs, however, can and do create noise that is just
>as loud and prolonged without any apparent hearing
>loss on their part,

Such as? and where is this study?

>Most dogs, in fact, do not appear to hear all that well.
>It is too easy to sneak up on them, for example, if you
>do it from downwind. They will not respond to
>whispered commands.

Really? I've owned many dogs, and I'm pretty light on my feet, and I've never
been able to sneak up on one until they were well into old age and *obviously*
hard of hearing. And as far as not responding to a whisper, I can whisper the
word "cookie" while she's asleep and my JRT jumps up and runs to the jar. I'd
say your statement depends on the dog in question.

>Unfortunately, there don't appear to be any serious
>studies measuring hearing loss in dogs due to noise
>hazards. Anything veterinarians have to say in this
>regard may be no better informed than what any dog
>owner would say. It is all based on speculation and
>anecdotal experience.

On that, I completely agree. Even a veterinarian's opinion *is* JUST that on
whether or not taking a dog in an airplane on a regular basis without providing
some form of ear protection would or would not be harmful to their hearing. As
said in a previous post, it all boils down to what you are comfortable with,
since the dog really has no choice (other than to make it extremely unpleasant
for you if he/she is unhappy!).

--Shirley

[Teacherjh]

Maybe active noise reduction is the way to go. A lightweight ANR headset may be
easier to get the dogs to live with. You (the pilot) would then use the old
rickety ones you reserved for passengers you don't like very much. :)

Jose

--
(for Email, make the obvious changes in my address)

[C J Campbell]

"Kyler Laird" > wrote in message
...
> "C J Campbell" > writes:
>
> >Dogs' heads vary in shape so much that it would be almost impossible to
> >produce commercially viable hearing protection.
>
> http://www.fortunecity.com/victorian/cheyne/213/id23_m.htm

Boy, I would hate to trust my dog to such a device. Dogs' ears have a lot of
wax; sticking something in the ear could impact that wax and cause a lot of
problems.

[tony roberts]

> Does anyone have any suggestions for cutting down noise for the dogs?

Gliding? ;)

--

Tony Roberts
PP-ASEL
VFR OTT
Night
Almost Instrument :)
Cessna 172H C-GICE

[Mike Rapoport]

With dogs that small, the easiest approach is going to be putting them in a
kennel and soundproofing that.

Mike
MU-2


"Chuck" > wrote in message
...
> Hi, all,
>
> Does anyone have any suggestions for cutting down noise for the dogs?
> We have 2 toy poodles who we love to take with us on plane trips.
> Unfortunately, they don't enjoy it and I think it's because of the
> noise. I don't think there are any "doggie" headsets available. Any
> suggestions?
>
> TIA, Chuck

[Peter Duniho]

"C J Campbell" > wrote in message
...
> Boy, I would hate to trust my dog to such a device. Dogs' ears have a lot
of
> wax; sticking something in the ear could impact that wax and cause a lot
of
> problems.

If your dog has a lot of wax in his ears, you should look at doing some
preventative maintenance. There should not be a huge amount of wax; no more
than the usual lubricating/cleaning amount.

We have had great success using boric acid powder (easily found in any drug
store) to clear up ear infections that cause a large wax build-up in our
dog's ears. We learned about it from our vet.

As for their barking causing hearing damage to themselves, dogs, humans, and
any variety of other mammals (and probably other animals) have a built-in
"noise suppressor" that prevents a problem with that. You can see this
easily yourself. Yell as loudly as you can, and then have a friend yell as
loudly as they can near you. His yell will sound MUCH louder than yours.

Pete

[tscottme]

"Chuck" > wrote in message
...
> Hi, all,
>
> Does anyone have any suggestions for cutting down noise for the dogs?
> We have 2 toy poodles who we love to take with us on plane trips.
> Unfortunately, they don't enjoy it and I think it's because of the
> noise. I don't think there are any "doggie" headsets available. Any
> suggestions?
>
> TIA, Chuck

It would probably be easier to "insulate" some sort of pet carrier to reduce
noise inside of it than to get a dog to wear any type of ear muff device.

--
Scott

[Teacherjh]

>>
As for their barking causing hearing damage to themselves, dogs, humans, and
any variety of other mammals (and probably other animals) have a built-in
"noise suppressor" that prevents a problem with that. You can see this
easily yourself. Yell as loudly as you can, and then have a friend yell as
loudly as they can near you. His yell will sound MUCH louder than yours.
<<

I think that's not from any noise suppression effects as much as the
directionality of the transmitter, though the effect is the same. Put your
friend's ear right next to your ear, and THEN have him yell as loudly as he
can. Compare that to yours.

Jose

--
(for Email, make the obvious changes in my address)

[Peter Duniho]

"Teacherjh" > wrote in message
...
> [...] Put your
> friend's ear right next to your ear, and THEN have him yell as loudly as
he
> can.

I've done it. Have you?

The noise IS attenuated.

[Teacherjh]

>> I've done it. [(having a friend shout with his near near mine)] Have you?

No. I'm speculating. If you've done it, I'll take your word for it.

Jose



--
(for Email, make the obvious changes in my address)

[Chuck]

Thanks for all the replies. I'm really not sure if the dogs mind the
flights...they just seem a bit uncomfortable. It's hard to tell. One
thing I do know, they would never wear any kind of a headset.

Thanks again, Chuck

[Jay Masino]

Chuck > wrote:
> Thanks for all the replies. I'm really not sure if the dogs mind the
> flights...they just seem a bit uncomfortable. It's hard to tell. One
> thing I do know, they would never wear any kind of a headset.
> Thanks again, Chuck

Chuck,
I think they'll be fine. Just give them time. My dog was shaking and
shivering like crazy the first several flights, and now she hops up on the
wing and gets in the back seat with only a little encouragement. She
watches for birds, and can tell when it's time to land (she listens for
the throttle to be reduced).

--- Jay


--
__!__
Jay and Teresa Masino ___(_)___
http://www2.ari.net/jmasino ! ! !
http://www.oceancityairport.com
http://www.oc-adolfos.com

[Buff5200]

You might try to find a commercial Television/Stage supply house. Ask for
a few square feet of Anechoic paneling. If you cover 3/4 of the interior of
a doggy carrier, it would SERIOUSLY reduce the ambient noise level.

the down side is that the dog would have to travel inside it's little travel
cage.

We use the stuff to cover the walls of small audio recording
booths. Even with only half the wall surface covered, the noise level in
the room
drops by over 15db.

Chuck wrote:

>Hi, all,
>
>Does anyone have any suggestions for cutting down noise for the dogs?
>We have 2 toy poodles who we love to take with us on plane trips.
>Unfortunately, they don't enjoy it and I think it's because of the
>noise. I don't think there are any "doggie" headsets available. Any
>suggestions?
>
>TIA, Chuck
>
>

[Peter Duniho]

"Chuck" > wrote in message
...
> Thanks for all the replies. I'm really not sure if the dogs mind the
> flights...they just seem a bit uncomfortable. It's hard to tell.

Every dog is different. Also, how the dog is introduced to airplanes
matters too. I introduced our dog a little bit at a time. Starting out
with just visiting the airport, to showing him the airplane, to showing him
that the airplane actually moves, to taxiing around, and finally to a
flight.

Some dogs you can just toss them in, and they'll be fine, but you never
really know until you try. And if it turns out they weren't fine, it may be
a lot harder to get them used to it. They may NEVER get used to it.

Of course, you are the only person who has a chance of knowing what the
situation is with your own dogs. But some dogs definitely don't like
flying, and yours might be in that category. It's also entirely possible
that the noise has nothing to do with it, and that they'd still be
uncomfortable even if you got them some sort of hearing protection.

Pete

[Kyler Laird]

(Jay Masino) writes:

> I think they'll be fine. Just give them time. My dog was shaking and
>shivering like crazy the first several flights, and now she hops up on the
>wing and gets in the back seat with only a little encouragement.

Of the four dogs who've flown with me regularly, none have been bothered
by it and I can hardly keep my youngest off of the plane while I'm loading
it. (That's saying a lot because they're usually free to run after the
ground squirrels in the lot by the hangar while I'm loading.) Part of the
reason for their comfort is probably because they spent a lot of time in
the plane while it was restored.
http://www.ecn.purdue.edu/~laird/flying/Aztec/ScottM/n6092y/pictures/aztec34.jpg

I've only flown a guest dog once and he snuggled in nicely with my gang
and had no problems.

>She
>watches for birds, and can tell when it's time to land (she listens for
>the throttle to be reduced).

Our oldest once *told* me it was time to land. We were at 16,500' over
Nebraska at the time... Make sure to pull water well before flying a
long leg.

--kyler

[C J Campbell]

"Peter Duniho" > wrote in message
...
> "Chuck" > wrote in message
> ...
> > Thanks for all the replies. I'm really not sure if the dogs mind the
> > flights...they just seem a bit uncomfortable. It's hard to tell.
>
> Every dog is different. Also, how the dog is introduced to airplanes
> matters too. I introduced our dog a little bit at a time. Starting out
> with just visiting the airport, to showing him the airplane, to showing
him
> that the airplane actually moves, to taxiing around, and finally to a
> flight.
>
> Some dogs you can just toss them in, and they'll be fine, but you never
> really know until you try. And if it turns out they weren't fine, it may
be
> a lot harder to get them used to it. They may NEVER get used to it.
>

Dogs go through two fear imprint stages in their first year. If they have a
bad experience during those times they will fear whatever they associate
with that experience for the rest of their life. These would be the times
that parent dogs would have introduced their pups to the dangers of the
wild, taking the pup near dangerous animals and then making him lie low and
hidden to emphasize the situation. Making your dog sit or down whenever a
vehicle approaches during the fear imprint period will cause the animal to
become terrified of automobiles forever. This can be a good or bad thing
depending on your training objectives.

Dogs that are afraid of fireworks, guns, riding in the car, etc., for no
apparent good reason probably learned this fear during one of the fear
imprint periods. The best way to teach a dog to fear flying is to crate him
up during a during a fear imprint period and take him flying while you
'comfort' him the whole time with sympathetic little worried sounds. It
really teaches the dog that flying is something to be afraid of. The second
period during early adolescence is the least rational of the two. The
trainer has to be very careful or you can absolutely ruin a dog. I would not
take a dog flying during the second fear imprint period at all. Taking your
dog for rides in the car to the park or to meet other dogs during the second
fear imprint period will teach the dog that riding in the car is desirable
and fun. Taking him to be neutered may well teach him that the car takes him
to the vet or some other painful place. Unfortunately, this is right when
most dogs are neutered because owners like to maintain a somewhat puppy-like
personality.

The breed of dog has a big effect on both the timing and duration of the
fear imprint periods as well as how the dog reacts to fear. Non-aggressive
dogs such as poodles will cower and piddle, whereas a terrier might well
bite or even viciously attack. Independent hunting dogs such as Scotties
have short fear imprint periods and generally fear absolutely nothing. These
breeds will chase anything that moves and, if they can't chase, will bark.
Some other breeds seem to be afraid of nearly everything.

[Wallace Berry]

Humans, dogs, bats, etc. are neurologically wired to prevent deafening
themselve from their own loud vocalilizations. Some bats can vocalize at
up to 120 db (luckily in frequencies that we don't hear). When you yell,
a reflex mechanism is activated that relaxes the muscles that tension
the eardrums. This effectively reduces the sensitivity of your hearing
and protects your inner ears. This mechanism is wired into the nerves
that govern vocalization and so this mechanism only works for your own
vocalizations. That's why a dog won't go deaf from it's own barking but
will go deaf from exposure to outside noise.


> Exposure to prolonged engine and propeller noise definitely will cause
> hearing loss in humans, just as prolonged exposure to rock and roll will.
> Dogs, however, can and do create noise that is just as loud and prolonged
> without any apparent hearing loss on their part, despite the fact that
> humans exposed to dogs' barking can lose their hearing.
>

[Jay Masino]

Kyler Laird > wrote:
> Our oldest once *told* me it was time to land. We were at 16,500' over
> Nebraska at the time... Make sure to pull water well before flying a
> long leg.

One time, I was getting close to the pattern, and I (jokingly) told Zena
to watch out for other traffic. When I was on downwind, about to turn
base, she saw another plane that happened to be on final. She jumped up
on the window and barked. Practically scared the hell out of me. I'm
sure it was a coincidence, but it was funny nonetheless.

--- Jay

--
__!__
Jay and Teresa Masino ___(_)___
http://www2.ari.net/jmasino ! ! !
http://www.oceancityairport.com
http://www.oc-adolfos.com

[Tony Cox]

"Kyler Laird" > wrote in message
...
> (Jay Masino) writes:
>
> I've only flown a guest dog once and he snuggled in nicely with my gang
> and had no problems.

My dog Bernie seems to like flying just fine. He's 17 and deaf as
a post, so hearing problems aren't an issue. He's a hoot in
turbulence -- somehow he thinks there's something wrong with
the seat, stands up, glares at it & stomps it in circles again suspiciously.

>
> >She
> >watches for birds, and can tell when it's time to land (she listens for
> >the throttle to be reduced).
>
> Our oldest once *told* me it was time to land. We were at 16,500' over
> Nebraska at the time... Make sure to pull water well before flying a
> long leg.

Tell me. Do your dogs bark at other planes in the air, or just those
that have dogs in them?

[m pautz]

Chuck wrote:
> Thanks for all the replies. I'm really not sure if the dogs mind the
> flights...they just seem a bit uncomfortable. It's hard to tell. One
> thing I do know, they would never wear any kind of a headset.
>
> Thanks again, Chuck
I never took a dog flying, but I did take my dog from South Fla to Mass
on a motorcycle. I made a platform that attached to the gas tank. She
would sit or stand most of the way and would lay down and sleep some of
the way. I made her a terry cloth lined rain suit and goggles.

The googles were made out of knauga hide (vinyl) that covered her entire
head and snapped under her chin. The vinyl had an oval cut out where
the eyes were. The oval opening was covered by a curved peice of
plexiglass. There was about 1" of foam between the vinyl and the
plexiglass that separated the plexiglass from the vinyl so that it
didn't touch her eyes.

The biggest problem was when we would stop. I had to get the rain coat
off before she would squat to pee.

Now, what were you saying about never getting your dog to wear a head set???

Marty

[Rosspilot]

>
>I never took a dog flying, but I did take my dog from South Fla to Mass
>on a motorcycle. I made a platform that attached to the gas tank. She
>would sit or stand most of the way and would lay down and sleep some of the
way. I made her a terry cloth lined rain suit and goggles.
>


I hope you have a photo somewhere of your dog with her biker goggles and
raincoat on that motorcycle platform . . .

I'd love to see that.


www.Rosspilot.com

[m pautz]

Rosspilot wrote:

>>I never took a dog flying, but I did take my dog from South Fla to Mass
>>on a motorcycle. I made a platform that attached to the gas tank. She
>>would sit or stand most of the way and would lay down and sleep some of the
>
> way. I made her a terry cloth lined rain suit and goggles.
>
>
>
> I hope you have a photo somewhere of your dog with her biker goggles and
> raincoat on that motorcycle platform . . .
>
> I'd love to see that.
>
>
> www.Rosspilot.com
>
>
I wish that I did. The only photo I had was with my first wife on the
back. After I got my second wife, the picture dissappeared.

I had two platforms. The "city" platform was a plastic dish pan that
was the width of the gas tank. She was limited to the sitting position
with that arrangement. The "travel" platform was a lot wider and was
raised up slightly so that my thighs would fit under it.

If I was going to go someplace without her, I had make sure she was
inside before I left. If not, she would come running and make a grand
leap for the gas tank.

Now back to the topic of this thread. If my dog wore that garb, I would
imagine that you could make a leather or vinyl helmut that would cover
your dogs ears. Just the vinyl and the dogs own ear flaps being held
down would add a lot of attenuation. The addition of high density foam
would add to the attenuation.

Marty

[Cecil Chapman]

If the truth be known, the long-term effect is more applicable to humans
than dogs. Compared to humans, dogs have a relatively (unfortunately) short
life and as a consequence have a shorter potential of exposure than do
humans. Further factor, into it that the dog (presumably) isn't going to be
flying as often as its' human companion.

If you were to ask if I would do it (i.e, take my dog ((or God forbid one of
my cats<grin>))), I would say no,,,, unless it was a dog that been exposed
to flight from puppyhood. Also, if you were to ask if I would get my dog
hearing protection (despite the facts regarding a relatively short-term
exposure), I probably would.... Of course, I got my first dog (a small
American Eskimo) a sweater,,,, so I can't claim to be driven by logic,
either <grin>

And now,,,,, since I obviously possess the sum total of all human
wisdom,,,,,,, the thread is closed.......... ;-) .... just kidding....
<g>

--
--
=-----
Good Flights!

Cecil
PP-ASEL
Student-IASEL

Check out my personal flying adventures from my first flight to the
checkride AND the continuing adventures beyond!
Complete with pictures and text at: www.bayareapilot.com

"I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things."
- Antoine de Saint-Exupery -

"We who fly, do so for the love of flying. We are alive in the air with
this miracle that lies in our hands and beneath our feet"
- Cecil Day Lewis -