Political Head warmers..rectal cavities

[Doug]

i know Im new to this pilot thing but these politicians are out of control.
Do they have to investigate everything?? I mean I have heard of finding a
job for your buddy but these commissions on every damn thing that happens
is getting out of control...

I thought for sure WE hired them to do this sorta thing....

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A35440-2004Jul7.html

"Plane That Caused Capitol Evacuation Nearly Shot Down"

[StellaStar]

>Do they have to investigate everything??

Better investigate the scare that had 'em all running out of the capitol than
let rumor and folk tales inflate the story to a real terrorist attempt. After
investigation, the controllers who dropped the ball about passing on word of
the nonfunctioning transponder were clearly at the root of the problem.

[John T]

"StellaStar" > wrote in message

>
> After investigation, the controllers who dropped
> the ball about passing on word of the nonfunctioning transponder were
> clearly at the root of the problem.

I beg to differ. The controllers were operating under what used to be
standard operating procedure - and still is SOP in most of the airspace in
this country.

Even if you accept the necessity of the ADIZ (and I'm not at all suggesting
that I do), our tax dollars built a coordination facility for this type of
situation (the KY governor's faulty xponder) and it failed. Whoever
designed it apparently didn't link its radar display to the FAA's computer
system in a way that allowed the coordination facility to see what the
controllers see.

Why is it that the controllers are the root of the problem?

The root of the problem, IMO, is the ADIZ/FRZ and the seemingly
ever-changing security requirements in the DC area. See definition of P-40.
See also restrictions unilaterally - and temporarily - placed on pattern
work in the ADIZ as a result of the KY governor issue.

Oh, and instead of simply fixing the radar data link, a NOTAM has been
issued (4/5555 ZDC) prohibiting flight within the ADIZ without a functioning
transponder. Period. I'm just waiting to hear what happens to a commercial
flight that has a similar problem:

"Captain here, folks. Sorry to let you know, but even though we've started
our descent into [Dulles, National, BWI], we've had to divert and land in
[Philly, Richmond] because we've had an electrical glitch. We'll get it
squared away and have you on your way in no time."

OK, so I went on a rant. My apologies, but I'm a bit frustrated after
talking about this situation with aviation-ignorant members of the public
today. I was able to persuade the couple of folks I talked to that the
ADIZ/FRZ isn't a reasonable solution, but I still have 289.9 million more to
go - especially those on Capitol Hill...

--
John T
http://tknowlogy.com/TknoFlyer
http://www.pocketgear.com/products_search.asp?developerid=4415
____________________

[Andrew Gideon]

John T wrote:

> "Captain here, folks. Sorry to let you know, but even though we've
> started our descent into [Dulles, National, BWI], we've had to divert and
> land in
> [Philly, Richmond] because we've had an electrical glitch. We'll get it
> squared away and have you on your way in no time."

Isn't there some password requirement for one of the DC airports? I recall
reading here (which naturally means that it must be true {8^) that some
pilots have been diverted after getting the password wrong; there's no
second try permitted.

That too must make for an interesting announcement.

> OK, so I went on a rant. My apologies, but I'm a bit frustrated after
> talking about this situation with aviation-ignorant members of the public
> today. I was able to persuade the couple of folks I talked to that the
> ADIZ/FRZ isn't a reasonable solution, but I still have 289.9 million more
> to go - especially those on Capitol Hill...

The problem is that people can come to the conclusion "every little bit
helps". That is, they can be easily convinced that the ADIZ is next to
useless. But they still see no reason to not have it.

What's not made clear to people are the costs.

- Andrew

[Paul Sengupta]

"Andrew Gideon" > wrote in message
online.com...
> Isn't there some password requirement for one of the DC airports? I
recall
> reading here (which naturally means that it must be true {8^) that some
> pilots have been diverted after getting the password wrong; there's no
> second try permitted.

Something that's read out over the radio?

Paul

[Tom Sixkiller]

"Paul Sengupta" > wrote in
message ...
> "Andrew Gideon" > wrote in message
> online.com...
> > Isn't there some password requirement for one of the DC airports? I
> recall
> > reading here (which naturally means that it must be true {8^) that some
> > pilots have been diverted after getting the password wrong; there's no
> > second try permitted.
>
> Something that's read out over the radio?
>
Possibly. It could be like the military authentication codes.

[Jack]

Paul Sengupta wrote:

> "Andrew Gideon" > wrote:
>>pilots have been diverted after getting the password wrong; there's no
>>second try permitted.
>
>
> Something that's read out over the radio?

Could be: but if it were it would probably be a one-time use code for
that particular flight.

No problem.


--
Jack

"Cave ab homine unius libri"

[Andrew Gideon]

Jack wrote:

> Paul Sengupta wrote:
>
>> "Andrew Gideon" > wrote:
>>>pilots have been diverted after getting the password wrong; there's no
>>>second try permitted.
>>
>>
>> Something that's read out over the radio?
>
> Could be: but if it were it would probably be a one-time use code for
> that particular flight.
>
> No problem.

My recollection of this is that it wasn't a single-use code but a code that
was valid for some window (ie. a day or an hour). Of course, my
recollection could be completely wrong (even to the idea that there's a
password at all {8^), but this sounds a lot more TSA-ish than a single-use
code.

Remember: these are the same people that don't even sync up with ATC when
tracking an aircraft with a failed mode C, but that just scare everyone
into the streets.

- Andrew

[Jack]

Andrew Gideon wrote:


> My recollection of this is that it wasn't a single-use code but a code that
> was valid for some window (ie. a day or an hour).

I'll wait for a more detailed explanation from a currently active
professional pilot about the mechanics of this process, which it is
highly unlikely any are about to share on Usenet.

Either way I think we have little to worry about from this particular
aspect of the security program, other than it being a PITA for those who
have to deal with it every day.


--
Jack

"Cave ab homine unius libri"

[Andrew Gideon]

Jack wrote:

> Andrew Gideon wrote:
>
>
>> My recollection of this is that it wasn't a single-use code but a code
>> that was valid for some window (ie. a day or an hour).
>
> I'll wait for a more detailed explanation from a currently active
> professional pilot about the mechanics of this process, which it is
> highly unlikely any are about to share on Usenet.

Ah. I'd not thought to search for this until just now...

http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn?pagename=article&contentId=A19511-2001Nov26&notFound=true

Since National's reopening last month, flight crews landing at National
have had to provide a secret code to help air traffic controllers verify
that the flight has not been hijacked.

...

Shumann said several planes have been diverted to Dulles since Oct. 4 for
"failures to authenticate."

This is pretty aged, though. I've no idea if the policy is still in place.

- Andrew

[Jay Beckman]

"Paul Sengupta" > wrote in
message ...
> "Andrew Gideon" > wrote in message
> online.com...
> > Isn't there some password requirement for one of the DC airports? I
> recall
> > reading here (which naturally means that it must be true {8^) that some
> > pilots have been diverted after getting the password wrong; there's no
> > second try permitted.
>
> Something that's read out over the radio?
>
> Paul
>
>

I'd be very suprised if this were the case.

I was just at DCA not too long ago. I sat at my gate for an hour with a
scanner and I didn't hear anything out of the ordinary being said verbally.

The only unusual thing I "heard" was a stuck mic on ground, meaning the
tower had to handle most of the ground movements for about 20 minutes or so.

Maybe they expect to see a specific XPndr squawk tied to a specific flight
number and if "Cactus" 1234 isn't squawking 5678 (or whatever...) it "fails"
the test?

Jay Beckman
Student Pilot - KCHD

[John T]

"Jay Beckman" > wrote in message
news:gC1Kc.5213$Zr.2840@okepread01
>
> I'd be very suprised if this were the case.

Surprise! :)

> I was just at DCA not too long ago. I sat at my gate for an hour
> with a scanner and I didn't hear anything out of the ordinary being
> said verbally.

You need to listen in on the PCT approach freqs when the planes check in
after handoff from ZDC. I don't know how the codeword program works (and
I'm not really all the interested in finding out), but you'll hear something
like:

"Airliner 123, descending to 9000 feet with Lima, gezundheit."

Just to demonstrate that it's not accidental, the controller sometimes needs
it repeated.

--
John T
http://tknowlogy.com/TknoFlyer
http://www.pocketgear.com/products_search.asp?developerid=4415
____________________

[Jay Beckman]

"John T" > wrote in message
ws.com...
> "Jay Beckman" > wrote in message
> news:gC1Kc.5213$Zr.2840@okepread01
> >
> > I'd be very suprised if this were the case.
>
> Surprise! :)
>
> > I was just at DCA not too long ago. I sat at my gate for an hour
> > with a scanner and I didn't hear anything out of the ordinary being
> > said verbally.
>
> You need to listen in on the PCT approach freqs when the planes check in
> after handoff from ZDC. I don't know how the codeword program works (and
> I'm not really all the interested in finding out), but you'll hear
something
> like:
>
> "Airliner 123, descending to 9000 feet with Lima, gezundheit."
>
> Just to demonstrate that it's not accidental, the controller sometimes
needs
> it repeated.
>
> --
> John T

Very interesting...it makes sense that it would be farther out on the
approach.

Thanks John.

Jay

[Michael]

"Tom Sixkiller" > wrote
> > Something that's read out over the radio?
> >
> Possibly. It could be like the military authentication codes.

Many things are possible, but only one is true. A good friend of mine
is captain for a major airline, has flown in using the procedure, and
told me what actually happens over a beer. Here's how it really is:

It is read out over the radio. In plain english. It's not like an
authentication code. It's a password. One word. Valid for the
entire day. You only get one chance to get it right - get it wrong
and you're sent elsewhere. But all you have to do is listen on
frequency (which is public - it's the standard approach frequency) for
20 minutes or so, and you will know the secret word. It's that
simple, since every airliner uses it on first contact.

Michael