Winds on long runways

[Casey Wilson]

Another day at Edwards AFB

12 JUL 0928L (1628Z)
Rwy 22: 166/5KTS
166/6MPH
Cross Wind: 7 KTS

Rwy 4: 202/5KTS
202/6MPH

Note the different wind directions at opposite ends of the same runway.

[Paul Tomblin]

In a previous article, "Casey Wilson" > said:
>Another day at Edwards AFB
>12 JUL 0928L (1628Z)
>Rwy 22: 166/5KTS
> 166/6MPH
>Cross Wind: 7 KTS

How can the cross wind component be higher than the wind?

Oh, I forgot that at Edwards the wind has an imaginary component.


--
Paul Tomblin > http://xcski.com/blogs/pt/
There are three kinds of people: Those who can count & those who can't.

[Maule Driver]

Nothing unusual about light winds coming from multiple directions over the
distance of a mile or more. Thermal activity will do that all day long. A
good dust devil will caused all sorts of disagreements

"Casey Wilson" > wrote in message
...
> Another day at Edwards AFB
>
> 12 JUL 0928L (1628Z)
> Rwy 22: 166/5KTS
> 166/6MPH
> Cross Wind: 7 KTS
>
> Rwy 4: 202/5KTS
> 202/6MPH
>
> Note the different wind directions at opposite ends of the same runway.
>
>

[OtisWinslow]

"Paul Tomblin" > wrote in message
...
>
> How can the cross wind component be higher than the wind?
>
> --
> Paul Tomblin > http://xcski.com/blogs/pt/
> There are three kinds of people: Those who can count & those who can't.

That's classified. They can't tell you.

[BTIZ]

we get that at our airport too... actually more diverse than a 40degree
swing.. I've seen 180degree differences on a 3700ft runway... wind socks at
both ends pointed at each other, and the mid field wind sock not agreeing
with either..

that means the thermal is in the middle..

BT

"Casey Wilson" > wrote in message
...
> Another day at Edwards AFB
>
> 12 JUL 0928L (1628Z)
> Rwy 22: 166/5KTS
> 166/6MPH
> Cross Wind: 7 KTS
>
> Rwy 4: 202/5KTS
> 202/6MPH
>
> Note the different wind directions at opposite ends of the same runway.
>
>

[Shawn]

I have been wanting to post this experience. I hope it's ok to hijack
this thread since the winds were in fact 180 degrees different on each
end of a 4000' runway.

My own Cessna 206 has been out of commission for about six weeks due
to top overhaul and long annual. I got tired of not flying so I went
out with my old instructor in his 172. After 2 landings he told me to
let him get out and go fly by myself a while. How quickly I forget how
awesome it is to fly!

Anyway, the winds were relatively light (<10 knots) and the afternoon
was hot. On my last (4th) solo landing I had an experience I have not
seen before. After touchdown the plane started weather veining into
the wind. Aileron up deflection on the upwind side (into the wind)
didn't help (and thinking about it, I don't think aileron would assist
in a weather-veining situation). I applied full opposite rudder and
that wasn't enough. I actually had to apply light braking on the
opposite rudder to get straightened back out.

I have looked through the archives and not seen much discussion on
weather-veining tendencies or techniques. I guess since my 206 is a
lot heavier perhaps I have gotten a bit out of practice.

Was my brake response correct? It was all I could think of. I was a
bit high on final so applied full 40 degrees flaps, perhaps that
additional drag added to the cause?

[Maule Driver]

"Shawn" >> Anyway, the winds were relatively
light (<10 knots) and the afternoon
> was hot. On my last (4th) solo landing I had an experience I have not
> seen before. After touchdown the plane started weather veining into
> the wind. Aileron up deflection on the upwind side (into the wind)
> didn't help (and thinking about it, I don't think aileron would assist
> in a weather-veining situation). I applied full opposite rudder and
> that wasn't enough. I actually had to apply light braking on the
> opposite rudder to get straightened back out.
>
What you did is SOP on most taildraggers. A nosewheel hides most
weathervaning tendencies with a little side loading of the tires and perhaps
a bit of scrubbed rubber.

> I have looked through the archives and not seen much discussion on
> weather-veining tendencies or techniques. I guess since my 206 is a
> lot heavier perhaps I have gotten a bit out of practice.
yep.
>
> Was my brake response correct? It was all I could think of. I was a
> bit high on final so applied full 40 degrees flaps, perhaps that
> additional drag added to the cause?

If there is a xwind, there is a weathervaning force. You can first make
sure the rubber is firmly in contact with the ground, correct with rudder,
add brakes if needed. Power or speed will give you more rudder authority.
Whatever is required.

A heavier a/c hides the effect at lower wind speeds. A nosewheel hides it
too. A tailwheel exposes it all for you to deal with. Get a little light
taildragger taxi time in a 10-15knot wind for a review. 25 knots for an
exam.

[Dale]

In article >,
(Shawn) wrote:




> Aileron up deflection on the upwind side (into the wind)
> didn't help (and thinking about it, I don't think aileron would assist
> in a weather-veining situation). I applied full opposite rudder and
> that wasn't enough. I actually had to apply light braking on the
> opposite rudder to get straightened back out.

Aileron will help somewhat to counter the weather vane....adverse yaw.
You should do whatever is needed to maintain directional control...if
brake is needed use it. In a B-17 aileron, rudder, brake, differential
power and maybe even sticking your tongue out <G> if needed in a stiff
crosswind.

--
Dale L. Falk

There is nothing - absolutely nothing - half so much worth doing
as simply messing around with airplanes.

http://home.gci.net/~sncdfalk/flying.html

[John Smith]

A vein carries blood. A weather vane indicates wind direction.

On 13 Jul 2004 10:29:33 -0700, (Shawn)
wrote:

>I have been wanting to post this experience. I hope it's ok to hijack
>this thread since the winds were in fact 180 degrees different on each
>end of a 4000' runway.
>
>My own Cessna 206 has been out of commission for about six weeks due
>to top overhaul and long annual. I got tired of not flying so I went
>out with my old instructor in his 172. After 2 landings he told me to
>let him get out and go fly by myself a while. How quickly I forget how
>awesome it is to fly!
>
>Anyway, the winds were relatively light (<10 knots) and the afternoon
>was hot. On my last (4th) solo landing I had an experience I have not
>seen before. After touchdown the plane started weather veining into
>the wind. Aileron up deflection on the upwind side (into the wind)
>didn't help (and thinking about it, I don't think aileron would assist
>in a weather-veining situation). I applied full opposite rudder and
>that wasn't enough. I actually had to apply light braking on the
>opposite rudder to get straightened back out.
>
>I have looked through the archives and not seen much discussion on
>weather-veining tendencies or techniques. I guess since my 206 is a
>lot heavier perhaps I have gotten a bit out of practice.
>
>Was my brake response correct? It was all I could think of. I was a
>bit high on final so applied full 40 degrees flaps, perhaps that
>additional drag added to the cause?

[Maule Driver]

I'm thinking the adverse yaw would only work with downwind ailerons.

"Dale" > wrote in message news:me-> > Aileron up deflection
on the upwind side (into the wind)
> > didn't help (and thinking about it, I don't think aileron would assist
> > in a weather-veining situation). I applied full opposite rudder and
> > that wasn't enough. I actually had to apply light braking on the
> > opposite rudder to get straightened back out.
>
> Aileron will help somewhat to counter the weather vane....adverse yaw.

[Dale]

In article >,
"Maule Driver" > wrote:

> I'm thinking the adverse yaw would only work with downwind ailerons.


Averse yaw is caused by the drag of the down-deflected aileron.
Assuming you have the correct aileron position for the crosswind, the
drag of the down-deflected aileron will help counter weather-vane.

In the B-17 if you used the wrong aileron you would not have enough
rudder to counter it...the ailerons on that airplane produce a lot of
drag.

--
Dale L. Falk

There is nothing - absolutely nothing - half so much worth doing
as simply messing around with airplanes.

http://home.gci.net/~sncdfalk/flying.html

[Maule Driver]

Yep, I got mixed up.

"Dale" > wrote in message
...
> In article >,
> "Maule Driver" > wrote:
>
> > I'm thinking the adverse yaw would only work with downwind ailerons.
>
>
> Averse yaw is caused by the drag of the down-deflected aileron.
> Assuming you have the correct aileron position for the crosswind, the
> drag of the down-deflected aileron will help counter weather-vane.
>
> In the B-17 if you used the wrong aileron you would not have enough
> rudder to counter it...the ailerons on that airplane produce a lot of
> drag.
>
> --
> Dale L. Falk
>
> There is nothing - absolutely nothing - half so much worth doing
> as simply messing around with airplanes.
>
> http://home.gci.net/~sncdfalk/flying.html

[William W. Plummer]

Maule Driver wrote:
> Yep, I got mixed up.
>
> "Dale" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>In article >,
<snip>...

>>In the B-17 if you used the wrong aileron you would not have enough
>>rudder to counter it...the ailerons on that airplane produce a lot of
>>drag.

That's a bit strange. What is the "wrong aileron"?
Ailerons control roll, while the rudder controls yaw.

If you are "wing low" while approaching in a crosswind, it is possible
that the windward wing will dip and a spin will try to start. You need
to correct using the rudder, but if no more authority is available, you
have a problem. It's not specific to the B-17.

[Dale]

In article <I8lJc.83007$IQ4.42418@attbi_s02>,
"William W. Plummer" > wrote:



> That's a bit strange. What is the "wrong aileron"?
> Ailerons control roll, while the rudder controls yaw.

I'm referring to after you're on the ground...during rollout. I had a
"Captain" roll in the wrong aileron when the airplane began to turn into
the wind...things got pretty interesting for a bit. <G>

--
Dale L. Falk

There is nothing - absolutely nothing - half so much worth doing
as simply messing around with airplanes.

http://home.gci.net/~sncdfalk/flying.html

[Jack]

William W. Plummer wrote:

> Maule Driver wrote:

>>> In the B-17 if you used the wrong aileron you would not have enough
>>> rudder to counter it...the ailerons on that airplane produce a lot of
>>> drag.
>
> That's a bit strange. What is the "wrong aileron"?
> Ailerons control roll, while the rudder controls yaw.

But not always, and not only. If you have an ASES rating you must be
familiar with the use of ailerons for steering on the surface. You also
should not overlook the necessity of using rudder to control roll in
high angle of attack on swept wing high performance aircraft, while
avoiding the use of ailerons.


> If you are "wing low" while approaching in a crosswind, it is possible
> that the windward wing will dip and a spin will try to start. You need
> to correct using the rudder, but if no more authority is available, you
> have a problem. It's not specific to the B-17.

Perhaps you are more familiar with the specific characteristics of B-17s
than is Maule Driver. If so, by all means tell us about it.

Do you notice the apparent contradiction between your statement in your
first paragraph and your claim in the second paragraph?


--
Jack

"Cave ab homine unius libri"

[Dale]

In article >, Jack >
wrote:


> Perhaps you are more familiar with the specific characteristics of B-17s
> than is Maule Driver. If so, by all means tell us about it.
>
> Do you notice the apparent contradiction between your statement in your
> first paragraph and your claim in the second paragraph?

Which two paragraphs? mine or Maule Drivers? <G>

--
Dale L. Falk

There is nothing - absolutely nothing - half so much worth doing
as simply messing around with airplanes.

http://home.gci.net/~sncdfalk/flying.html