"Proceed on Course" = "Right turn approved"?

[Bob Chilcoat]

I took of from Reading, PA this morning from RW 31 with an on-course heading
of 105. As I was cleared for takeoff, I was told "Cleared for takeoff,
proceed on course". In the past, they've also added "Right turn approved".
This time they didn't. I was concerned that I hadn't been cleared for a
right turn, and a right turn would have gotten me on course sooner. I then
said "Request right turn to on course" but the controller seemed a bit
irritated and just added "On course approved". Did I have permission for a
right turn in the pattern or not?

--
Bob (Chief Pilot, White Knuckle Airways)

I don't have to like Bush and Cheney (Or Kerry, for that matter) to love
America

[Dave Stadt]

I would turn whatever direction needed to get on course.

"Bob Chilcoat" > wrote in message
...
> I took of from Reading, PA this morning from RW 31 with an on-course
heading
> of 105. As I was cleared for takeoff, I was told "Cleared for takeoff,
> proceed on course". In the past, they've also added "Right turn
approved".
> This time they didn't. I was concerned that I hadn't been cleared for a
> right turn, and a right turn would have gotten me on course sooner. I
then
> said "Request right turn to on course" but the controller seemed a bit
> irritated and just added "On course approved". Did I have permission for
a
> right turn in the pattern or not?
>
> --
> Bob (Chief Pilot, White Knuckle Airways)
>
> I don't have to like Bush and Cheney (Or Kerry, for that matter) to love
> America
>
>

[Gary Drescher]

"Bob Chilcoat" > wrote in message
...
> I took of from Reading, PA this morning from RW 31 with an on-course
heading
> of 105. As I was cleared for takeoff, I was told "Cleared for takeoff,
> proceed on course". In the past, they've also added "Right turn
approved".
> This time they didn't. I was concerned that I hadn't been cleared for a
> right turn, and a right turn would have gotten me on course sooner. I
then
> said "Request right turn to on course" but the controller seemed a bit
> irritated and just added "On course approved". Did I have permission for
a
> right turn in the pattern or not?

The FARs' default requirement for left turns in the pattern applies to
landings, not departures. So I don't think any particular permission is
required for a right turn after takeoff.

--Gary

[G.R. Patterson III]

Bob Chilcoat wrote:
>
> I took of from Reading, PA this morning from RW 31 with an on-course heading
> of 105. As I was cleared for takeoff, I was told "Cleared for takeoff,
> proceed on course". In the past, they've also added "Right turn approved".
> This time they didn't.

I got the same set of instructions departing from NE Philly from AOPA Expo last fall.
I just turned right when I got to pattern altitude. Nobody said anything, so I
assumed it was correct.

George Patterson
In Idaho, tossing a rattlesnake into a crowded room is felony assault.
In Tennessee, it's evangelism.

[Andrew Sarangan]

"Bob Chilcoat" > wrote in
:

> I took of from Reading, PA this morning from RW 31 with an on-course
> heading of 105. As I was cleared for takeoff, I was told "Cleared for
> takeoff, proceed on course". In the past, they've also added "Right
> turn approved". This time they didn't. I was concerned that I hadn't
> been cleared for a right turn, and a right turn would have gotten me
> on course sooner. I then said "Request right turn to on course" but
> the controller seemed a bit irritated and just added "On course
> approved". Did I have permission for a right turn in the pattern or
> not?
>
> --
> Bob (Chief Pilot, White Knuckle Airways)
>
> I don't have to like Bush and Cheney (Or Kerry, for that matter) to
> love America
>
>

On course is whatever course you need to turn to in order to get to your
destination. If you need to turn right to get on course, then yes, it is
approved.

[Newps]

Bob Chilcoat wrote:
> I took of from Reading, PA this morning from RW 31 with an on-course heading
> of 105. As I was cleared for takeoff, I was told "Cleared for takeoff,
> proceed on course". In the past, they've also added "Right turn approved".
> This time they didn't. I was concerned that I hadn't been cleared for a
> right turn, and a right turn would have gotten me on course sooner. I then
> said "Request right turn to on course" but the controller seemed a bit
> irritated and just added "On course approved". Did I have permission for a
> right turn in the pattern or not?


At a towered airport you turn whatever direction you want, unless
otherwise instructed.

[Newps]

Gary Drescher wrote:


>
> The FARs' default requirement for left turns in the pattern applies to
> landings, not departures.

And doesn't apply at all to towered airports.

[Gary Drescher]

"Newps" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> Gary Drescher wrote:
> >
> > The FARs' default requirement for left turns in the pattern applies to
> > landings, not departures.
>
> And doesn't apply at all to towered airports.

I think it does, because 91.129 (Class D ops) incorporates the requirements
of 91.126 and 91.127 (Class G and E ops), except when ATC authorizes a
deviation. I think that's why Bob was wondering if he needed explicit
permission for the turn.

--Gary

[Bill Zaleski]

On Thu, 15 Jul 2004 19:21:17 -0600, Newps > wrote:

>
>
>Bob Chilcoat wrote:
>> I took of from Reading, PA this morning from RW 31 with an on-course heading
>> of 105. As I was cleared for takeoff, I was told "Cleared for takeoff,
>> proceed on course". In the past, they've also added "Right turn approved".
>> This time they didn't. I was concerned that I hadn't been cleared for a
>> right turn, and a right turn would have gotten me on course sooner. I then
>> said "Request right turn to on course" but the controller seemed a bit
>> irritated and just added "On course approved". Did I have permission for a
>> right turn in the pattern or not?
>
>
>At a towered airport you turn whatever direction you want, unless
>otherwise instructed.


Agreed, but you may not cross an extension of the departure runway
centerline till outside the "D" or with clearance. This happens a lot
here, for some reason. The tower has a fit, and rightfully so.

[Newps]

Gary Drescher wrote:
> "Newps" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>
>>Gary Drescher wrote:
>>
>>>The FARs' default requirement for left turns in the pattern applies to
>>>landings, not departures.
>>
>>And doesn't apply at all to towered airports.
>
>
> I think it does, because 91.129 (Class D ops) incorporates the requirements
> of 91.126 and 91.127 (Class G and E ops), except when ATC authorizes a
> deviation. I think that's why Bob was wondering if he needed explicit
> permission for the turn.


No, the left turn preference does not apply to towered airports.

[Newps]

Bill Zaleski wrote:


>>
>>At a towered airport you turn whatever direction you want, unless
>>otherwise instructed.
>
>
>
> Agreed, but you may not cross an extension of the departure runway
> centerline till outside the "D" or with clearance.

That's one of the dumbest things I have ever heard. I'm supposed to fly
4 or 5 miles until I leave the class D before I can cross an extended
centerline of the departure rwy? Bull****. If the tower controller
doesn't give me a damn good reason not to turn then I'll turn to
whatever is convenient for me.


This happens a lot
> here, for some reason.

It happens alot becaue it's ridiculous to assume it wouldn't.



The tower has a fit,

Where is here, I'd like to come thru there one day.

[Brad Z]

"Bill Zaleski" > wrote in message
...
> Agreed, but you may not cross an extension of the departure runway
> centerline till outside the "D" or with clearance. This happens a lot
> here, for some reason. The tower has a fit, and rightfully so.

Hmm, don't remember reading that in the AIM.

[Gary Drescher]

"Newps" > wrote in message
...
> No, the left turn preference does not apply to towered airports.

How does that jibe with 91.129a?

[Newps]

Gary Drescher wrote:
> "Newps" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>No, the left turn preference does not apply to towered airports.
>
>
> How does that jibe with 91.129a?

How does it not jibe?

[Bob Gardner]

Seems to me that "Maintain runway heading until advised" would fit the bill
in this situation.


"Bill Zaleski" > wrote in message
...
> On Thu, 15 Jul 2004 19:21:17 -0600, Newps > wrote:
>
> >
> >
> >Bob Chilcoat wrote:
> >> I took of from Reading, PA this morning from RW 31 with an on-course
heading
> >> of 105. As I was cleared for takeoff, I was told "Cleared for takeoff,
> >> proceed on course". In the past, they've also added "Right turn
approved".
> >> This time they didn't. I was concerned that I hadn't been cleared for
a
> >> right turn, and a right turn would have gotten me on course sooner. I
then
> >> said "Request right turn to on course" but the controller seemed a bit
> >> irritated and just added "On course approved". Did I have permission
for a
> >> right turn in the pattern or not?
> >
> >
> >At a towered airport you turn whatever direction you want, unless
> >otherwise instructed.
>
>
> Agreed, but you may not cross an extension of the departure runway
> centerline till outside the "D" or with clearance. This happens a lot
> here, for some reason. The tower has a fit, and rightfully so.
>

[Gary Drescher]

"Newps" > wrote in message
...
> Gary Drescher wrote:
> > "Newps" > wrote in message
> > ...
> >
> >>No, the left turn preference does not apply to towered airports.
> >
> > How does that jibe with 91.129a?
>
> How does it not jibe?

As I mentioned, 91.129a says that pilots at Class D airports have to comply
with the untowered-airport requirements set forth in 91.126 and 91.127
(except when otherwise authorized by ATC).

--Gary

[zatatime]

On Thu, 15 Jul 2004 19:44:28 -0400, "Bob Chilcoat"
> wrote:

>I took of from Reading, PA this morning from RW 31 with an on-course heading
>of 105. As I was cleared for takeoff, I was told "Cleared for takeoff,
>proceed on course". In the past, they've also added "Right turn approved".
>This time they didn't. I was concerned that I hadn't been cleared for a
>right turn, and a right turn would have gotten me on course sooner. I then
>said "Request right turn to on course" but the controller seemed a bit
>irritated and just added "On course approved". Did I have permission for a
>right turn in the pattern or not?

You were given free reign to get on course any way you saw fit. He
must've been slow and didn't need to send you in any particular
direction.

z

[Tom Sixkiller]

"Newps" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> Bob Chilcoat wrote:
> > I took of from Reading, PA this morning from RW 31 with an on-course
heading
> > of 105. As I was cleared for takeoff, I was told "Cleared for takeoff,
> > proceed on course". In the past, they've also added "Right turn
approved".
> > This time they didn't. I was concerned that I hadn't been cleared for a
> > right turn, and a right turn would have gotten me on course sooner. I
then
> > said "Request right turn to on course" but the controller seemed a bit
> > irritated and just added "On course approved". Did I have permission
for a
> > right turn in the pattern or not?
>
>
> At a towered airport you turn whatever direction you want, unless
> otherwise instructed.

After clearing first, with something like "request southeast departure"?

[Peter Clark]

On Thu, 15 Jul 2004 20:36:09 -0600, Newps > wrote:


>> Agreed, but you may not cross an extension of the departure runway
>> centerline till outside the "D" or with clearance.
>
>That's one of the dumbest things I have ever heard. I'm supposed to fly
>4 or 5 miles until I leave the class D before I can cross an extended
>centerline of the departure rwy? Bull****. If the tower controller
>doesn't give me a damn good reason not to turn then I'll turn to
>whatever is convenient for me.

Just to play devil's advocate, why would you need to cross the
extended centerline? You took off, you turned in the direction that
you intended to go which would either be right or left of the
centerline. Unless you were completely screwed up (or were declaring
an emergency and it wouldn't matter) you wouldn't need to reverse the
turn and cross the centerline again. Doing so would confuse the
controller, and any traffic taking off behind you which was expecting
you to keep going in generally the direction you were going, right?

Wouldn't anything else be a transit of the Class D which would need
approval anyway?

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Bob Chilcoat" > wrote in message
...
>
> I took of from Reading, PA this morning from RW 31 with an on-course
heading
> of 105. As I was cleared for takeoff, I was told "Cleared for takeoff,
> proceed on course". In the past, they've also added "Right turn
approved".
> This time they didn't. I was concerned that I hadn't been cleared for a
> right turn, and a right turn would have gotten me on course sooner. I
then
> said "Request right turn to on course" but the controller seemed a bit
> irritated and just added "On course approved". Did I have permission for
a
> right turn in the pattern or not?
>

Why would you need specific permission for a right turn? "Proceed on
course" means a turn on course in the shortest direction. In your case, a
right turn is about 155 degrees while a left turn is about 205 degrees, so
you should turn right.

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Newps" > wrote in message
...
>
> And doesn't apply at all to towered airports.
>

According to FAR 91.129 it does.

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Newps" > wrote in message
...
>
> No, the left turn preference does not apply to towered airports.
>

He just explained why it does.


§ 91.129 Operations in Class D airspace.

(a) General. Unless otherwise authorized or required by the ATC facility
having jurisdiction over the Class D airspace area, each person operating an
aircraft in Class D airspace must comply with the applicable provisions of
this section. In addition, each person must comply with §§91.126 and 91.127.
For the purpose of this section, the primary airport is the airport for
which the Class D airspace area is designated. A satellite airport is any
other airport within the Class D airspace area.


§ 91.126 Operating on or in the vicinity of an airport in Class G
airspace.

(b) Direction of turns. When approaching to land at an airport without an
operating control tower in Class G airspace-

(1) Each pilot of an airplane must make all turns of that airplane to
the
left unless the airport displays approved light signals or visual markings
indicating that turns should be made to the right, in which case the pilot
must make all turns to the right; and

(2) Each pilot of a helicopter must avoid the flow of fixed-wing
aircraft.

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Newps" > wrote in message
...
>
> How does it not jibe?
>

Because it says something completely different from what you're saying.

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Newps" > wrote in message
...
>
> At a towered airport you turn whatever direction you want, unless
> otherwise instructed.
>

At a towered airport you make left turns while approaching to land, unless
instructed otherwise.

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Bill Zaleski" > wrote in message
...
>
> Agreed, but you may not cross an extension of the departure runway
> centerline till outside the "D" or with clearance. This happens a lot
> here, for some reason. The tower has a fit, and rightfully so.
>

How would you be in a position to cross the extended centerline of the
runway you just departed?

[Bob Moore]

"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote

> "Newps" wrote
>> No, the left turn preference does not apply to towered airports.
>>
>
> He just explained why it does.

> § 91.129 Operations in Class D airspace.
>
> (a) General. Unless otherwise authorized or required by the ATC
> facility having jurisdiction over the Class D airspace area,
> each person operating an aircraft in Class D airspace must comply
> with the applicable provisions of this section. In addition, each
> person must comply with §§91.126 and 91.127......

> § 91.126 Operating on or in the vicinity of an airport in Class G
> airspace.
>
> (b) Direction of turns. When approaching to land at an airport
> without an operating control tower in Class G airspace-
>
> (1) Each pilot of an airplane must make all turns of that airplane
> to the left .....

91.126 only requires left turns at airports without an operating control
tower. How does making right turns at an airport with a control tower
conflict with the 91.129 requirement to be in compliance with 91.126?

Bob Moore

[G.R. Patterson III]

Peter Clark wrote:
>
> Just to play devil's advocate, why would you need to cross the
> extended centerline?

Unless the pilot is paying a lot of attention to the ground track, a crosswind is
likely to cause the aircraft to drift downwind a bit while climbing out. If you've
drifted to the right, a left turn will then take you across the extended centerline.
Since my aircraft has no rear view mirror, I can't be absolutely sure, but I'd bet
that I rarely track the extended centerline when the wind is up, especially at
unfamiliar fields.

George Patterson
In Idaho, tossing a rattlesnake into a crowded room is felony assault.
In Tennessee, it's evangelism.

[G.R. Patterson III]

Bob Gardner wrote:
>
> Seems to me that "Maintain runway heading until advised" would fit the bill
> in this situation.

If you maintain that heading and there's any crosswind, you will not track the
extended centerline. When we brought my Maule back from the factory, we departed from
a nearby controlled field. We were told to maintain runway heading. The controller
explained to us that he had a corporate jet leaving right after us, and maintaining
this heading would cause us to drift to the right and get out of the way of the jet.

George Patterson
In Idaho, tossing a rattlesnake into a crowded room is felony assault.
In Tennessee, it's evangelism.

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Bob Moore" > wrote in message
. 8...
>
> 91.126 only requires left turns at airports without an operating control
> tower. How does making right turns at an airport with a control tower
> conflict with the 91.129 requirement to be in compliance with 91.126?
>

Because 91.129(a) requires compliance with 91.126.

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"G.R. Patterson III" > wrote in message
...
>
> If you maintain that heading and there's any crosswind, you will not track
the
> extended centerline.
>

You're not expected to track the runway centerline when instructed to fly
runway heading.

[Bob Moore]

"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote

> Because 91.129(a) requires compliance with 91.126.

But...what does 91.126 say???? Read it!
It states "at untowered" airports.....

Bob

[Peter Duniho]

"Peter Clark" > wrote in message
...
> >> Agreed, but you may not cross an extension of the departure runway
> >> centerline till outside the "D" or with clearance.
> [...]
>
> Just to play devil's advocate, why would you need to cross the
> extended centerline?

I've never heard that rule, but assuming it exists, I think the situation
where it would be more relevant would be an airport with parallel runways.

Sure would be nice if someone who thinks the rule exists would cite the
regulation where it appears.

Pete

[Corky Scott]

On Fri, 16 Jul 2004 14:01:10 GMT, "Steven P. McNicoll"
> wrote:

>At a towered airport you make left turns while approaching to land, unless
>instructed otherwise.

But the question was about a departure, not approach. Does this rule
apply during departure?

Corky Scott

[Jack]

Steven P. McNicoll wrote:

> How would you be in a position to cross the extended centerline of the
> runway you just departed?

If you depart from a runway, or helo pad, etc., other than the
"Departure" runway.


--
Jack

"Cave ab homine unius libri"

[Nathan Young]

On Thu, 15 Jul 2004 19:44:28 -0400, "Bob Chilcoat"
> wrote:

>I took of from Reading, PA this morning from RW 31 with an on-course heading
>of 105. As I was cleared for takeoff, I was told "Cleared for takeoff,
>proceed on course". In the past, they've also added "Right turn approved".
>This time they didn't. I was concerned that I hadn't been cleared for a
>right turn, and a right turn would have gotten me on course sooner. I then
>said "Request right turn to on course" but the controller seemed a bit
>irritated and just added "On course approved". Did I have permission for a
>right turn in the pattern or not?

On course means just that. You had permission to make a turn to
oncourse. Unless previous instructions had been given, I would assume
the shortest turn to 'on course' was expected.

[Andrew Gideon]

Bob Moore wrote:

> "Steven P. McNicoll" wrote
>
>> Because 91.129(a) requires compliance with 91.126.
>
> But...what does 91.126 say???? Read it!
> It states "at untowered" airports.....

Yes. At an untowered airport in class D airspace, it is left traffic unless
otherwise...

Now is it all clear?

<Laugh>

- Andrew

[Andrew Gideon]

Bill Zaleski wrote:

> Agreed, but you may not cross an extension of the departure runway
> centerline till outside the "D" or with clearance. This happens a lot
> here, for some reason. The tower has a fit, and rightfully so.

Eh? At CDW, we often have departures from 27 and both arrivals and
departures on 22. Closed traffic uses 22 at these times, of course.

However, 22 being right-traffic, anyone in the pattern for 22 (and this
includes arrivals entering the downwind at midfield due to the layout of
the airport) is crossing 27's extended centerline.

- Andrew

[Bill Zaleski]

On Fri, 16 Jul 2004 14:04:23 GMT, "Steven P. McNicoll"
> wrote:

>
>"Bill Zaleski" > wrote in message
...
>>
>> Agreed, but you may not cross an extension of the departure runway
>> centerline till outside the "D" or with clearance. This happens a lot
>> here, for some reason. The tower has a fit, and rightfully so.
>>
>
>How would you be in a position to cross the extended centerline of the
>runway you just departed?

When issued a downwind departure and your desired course is on the
other side of the extended centerline. Yes, I know you should have
been issued a downwind that put you ohn the correct side, but it
doesn't always happen.
>

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Bill Zaleski" > wrote in message
...
>
> When issued a downwind departure and your desired course is on the
> other side of the extended centerline. Yes, I know you should have
> been issued a downwind that put you ohn the correct side, but it
> doesn't always happen.
>

That doesn't follow the situation we are discussing. Recall that it was
stated; "At a towered airport you turn whatever direction you want, unless
otherwise instructed."

You responded; "Agreed, but you may not cross an extension of the departure
runway centerline till outside the "D" or with clearance. This happens a
lot
here, for some reason. The tower has a fit, and rightfully so."

Now the situation is not one where you turn whatever direction you want, the
tower has issued a turn away from your direction of flight. But no matter,
at whatever point you are issued "proceed on course", it means from your
present position turn in the shortest direction toward your desired
destination. Even if it does cross an extension of the departure runway
centerline well inside the "D".

[BTIZ]

the shortest turn to reach the desired heading..

a good response would have been, "roger, cleared on course, right to heading
105"
that would have given the controller the acknowledgement and some
information without questioning

BT

"Bob Chilcoat" > wrote in message
...
> I took of from Reading, PA this morning from RW 31 with an on-course
heading
> of 105. As I was cleared for takeoff, I was told "Cleared for takeoff,
> proceed on course". In the past, they've also added "Right turn
approved".
> This time they didn't. I was concerned that I hadn't been cleared for a
> right turn, and a right turn would have gotten me on course sooner. I
then
> said "Request right turn to on course" but the controller seemed a bit
> irritated and just added "On course approved". Did I have permission for
a
> right turn in the pattern or not?
>
> --
> Bob (Chief Pilot, White Knuckle Airways)
>
> I don't have to like Bush and Cheney (Or Kerry, for that matter) to love
> America
>
>

[Newps]

Tom Sixkiller wrote:


>>
>>At a towered airport you turn whatever direction you want, unless
>>otherwise instructed.
>
>
> After clearing first, with something like "request southeast departure"?

Don't need that either. If tower has traffic for you he will tell you.

[Newps]

Peter Duniho wrote:

>
>
> Sure would be nice if someone who thinks the rule exists would cite the
> regulation where it appears.

Don't worry about it, it doesn't. Sounds like an instructor sitting up
late at night thinking of stupid things to teach.