Re: Buzzing Fatality

[Bushy]

> After I completed my training, by 300 hour 20 year old instructors, (who
> taught me soft field for my flight test, while admitting that they had
> NEVER landed on anything other than a surfaced runway) I went to a
> Northern BC bush pilot with over 20,000 hours and asked him to give me
> some lessons.

And on the other side of the globe, I'm doing my current bush pilot training
with Arthie Hearne, a 76 year old pilot that has spent his life flying in
the Australian outback. I agree, pilots should be taught how to land
properly on all sorts of fields. The number of high time commercial so
called pilots that can't land on his main bush strip which is 1000 metres
long when they drop out to visit and wind up going round and heading to
another strip and driving..... let alone the shorter strips. I'm learning
this so I can then fly out of my back yard with the (almost?) level 330
metre and the downhill take off (that on landing runs uphill into the side
of the mountain!) 250 metre one way cross strip that I'm building. Artie
likes the one way strip! We have walked it together and have had a good
discussion on setting it up right. I can imagine doing the same thing with a
300 hour 20 year old instructor!

> He taught me what precautionary landings were. Forget the
> curriculum BS of inspecting the field from 500 ft. We got down to 3 feet
> (2nd pass after checking aerial obstructions) and held it while all the
> time looking left - not ahead - over a rutted abandoned dirt strip! We
> did short field landings where my old instructors would have been
> calling Mayday.

You should try doing them in Australia! First you have to get upside down!

> We did shortfield takeoffs that scared the crap out of
> me.

Ain't it grand being in control! And can't you get some get up and go
happening while roaring along at full throttle dodging between the
trees!!!!!! Artie just thinks I'm trying to kill him! At least I haven't
ground-looped it!

> We did landings that he called just regular landings, on logging
> roads and fields, and in wet soil!

That's going to be interesting, and something I'll have to perfect. My red
mud driveway swallows my car after an inch of rain! Will have to irrigate my
strip and get a good strong layer of couch grass so I can use it on the wet
days where the clouds are high enough not to hide my friendly mountains.

> Then I switched. I am now taking my
> IFR with a 15000 hour jet first officer. So different - don't let the
> passengers know that you are climbing, don't let them know that you are
> banking - and definitely don't let them feel the landing. And as a
> juxtaposition, I am also having some advanced lessons from an
> ex-military aeerobatic formation flyer.

I'm going to do mine with 4 times Australian champion Mal Beard. But for my
current flight plans, the IFR isn't so important. (unless it's marked on the
map with a black line with lots of little cross lines!) I'm looking forward
to the day when I can get my landings that smooth.

> So I believe that at my current 325 hours, even though I am still very
> green by Henriques.Whitt/Gardner standards I have sufficient expertise
> and training to be able to comment on this topic.

Even with my little 60 hours, I reckon I can add to the discussion.

> And I maintain, Why would we condone buzzing?
> It is stupid
> It is irresponsible
> It is dangerous
> Why the hell would we expect anyone to teach how to do it safely?

One day when I get my low level waiver, I'll be able to enjoy the thrill of
doing it in control! Of course, they'll probably take my little bit of paper
of me when I fly backwards and upside down under Story bridge!

> This reminds me of the old discussion on formation flight.
> Why do we want to fly close enough to someone who is not trained in
> formation flight so that we can wave to him?
> We just saw him 20 minutes ago, and we'll see him again in 10 minutes
> when we land.
>
> We don't need to bloody wave to him from 20ft wingtip to wingtip!

No need to wave to the planes, I'll be waving to the cars on the bridge!

> I am seriously starting to doubt whether it's me that is missing
> something, or everyone else!
>
> Either way, I'll just keep doing it my way :):):)

Me too!

;<)

Peter

[Dylan Smith]

In article >, gatt wrote:
> I've determined that, as a rule, flying low to the ground is inherently
> dangerous even if you're straight and level. Are bird strikes common and,
> if so, what would a bird with a 6' wingspan do to a Cessna 152 or a Grumman
> Tiger?

Bird strikes are fairly uncommon in GA planes because at the altitudes
you find the most birds, GA planes typically have slowed down quite a
bit. A bird can usually avoid anything going less than 90 knots - don't
forget they get lots of flying practise as they may fly most of the day.

I have spent quite a bit of time gaggle soaring my glider with seagulls.
I try to thermal in the same direction as the birds (and the Ka-8 goes
about the same speed) but occasionally a lone bird will join the thermal
the wrong way. I've had a few of these opposite direction birds get
close, but they are always pretty good at dodging.

Interestingly, they've just re-introduced the Great Bustard to its
former habitat in Wiltshire (it was hunted to extinction in the 18th
century). This bird is the heaviest flying bird in the world - weighing
up to 50lbs with a 7ft wingspan. I'd love to soar my glider with one,
but I'd hate to hit one!

--
Dylan Smith, Castletown, Isle of Man
Flying: http://www.dylansmith.net
Frontier Elite Universe: http://www.alioth.net
"Maintain thine airspeed, lest the ground come up and smite thee"

[Dylan Smith]

In article >, gatt wrote:
> Do people use Rain-X on windscreens? That's one of the single best things
> I've learned in years of four-wheeling: My jeep will be covered with mud,
> except for the windshield. It's amazing.

I don't think it's good for plastic windscreens like on aircraft - but I
do use it on the windows of my house!

--
Dylan Smith, Castletown, Isle of Man
Flying: http://www.dylansmith.net
Frontier Elite Universe: http://www.alioth.net
"Maintain thine airspeed, lest the ground come up and smite thee"

[Dylan Smith]

In article <nospam-8F2145.22212702082004@shawnews>, tony roberts wrote:
> This reminds me of the old discussion on formation flight.
> Why do we want to fly close enough to someone who is not trained in
> formation flight so that we can wave to him?
> We just saw him 20 minutes ago, and we'll see him again in 10 minutes
> when we land.
>
> We don't need to bloody wave to him from 20ft wingtip to wingtip!
>
> I am seriously starting to doubt whether it's me that is missing
> something, or everyone else!

Yes - you are missing something, quite a lot in fact if you think we fly
formation just to wave at our friends. There are many reasons to fly
formation in civil aircraft - the most common is to get in-flight
photographs of another aircraft, but quite often it's done because when
done well, it is very rewarding. The only 'waving' we do at the other
pilot is hand signals.

One of my most rewarding cross country flights was Houston to Oshkosh
and back again - almost 25 hours of formation flying with a C170 and a
C140.

--
Dylan Smith, Castletown, Isle of Man
Flying: http://www.dylansmith.net
Frontier Elite Universe: http://www.alioth.net
"Maintain thine airspeed, lest the ground come up and smite thee"

[Ron Natalie]

"Dylan Smith" > wrote in message ...

> Bird strikes are fairly uncommon in GA planes because at the altitudes
> you find the most birds, GA planes typically have slowed down quite a
> bit. A bird can usually avoid anything going less than 90 knots - don't
> forget they get lots of flying practise as they may fly most of the day.

Tell that to the Turkey Buzzard I hit at 80 knots at 2000 AGL in the Skyhawk.

>

[Dylan Smith]

In article et>, Dudley
Henriques wrote:
> The accidents usually occur when steep turns and/or steep climbing turn
> exits to the pass are attempted with pilot distraction outside the
> airplane to objects or persons on the ground. The stall speed increases
> as g is applied and too hard a pull accelerates the stall. In many cases
> expert pilot witnesses to these accidents testify to a noticeable slip
> or skid just before the stall which would indicate an off center ball
> due to pilot distraction outside the airplane.

Another factor may be the good old inner ear lying again - with the head
turned rapidly to watch the subject of a buzzjob followed by the pullup
whilst still concentrating on the ground may lead to the situation where
the pilot doesn't realise the lack of coordination and pitch attitude.

The flight medical guy who did a talk at our club described it -
unfortunately it's too long ago to remember exactly how he described it!

--
Dylan Smith, Castletown, Isle of Man
Flying: http://www.dylansmith.net
Frontier Elite Universe: http://www.alioth.net
"Maintain thine airspeed, lest the ground come up and smite thee"

[Roger Halstead]

On Mon, 09 Aug 2004 07:20:16 -0000, Dylan Smith
> wrote:

>In article >, gatt wrote:
>> I've determined that, as a rule, flying low to the ground is inherently
>> dangerous even if you're straight and level. Are bird strikes common and,
>> if so, what would a bird with a 6' wingspan do to a Cessna 152 or a Grumman
>> Tiger?
>
>Bird strikes are fairly uncommon in GA planes because at the altitudes

Man, I've hit three and all were in the pattern. None did any damage
except to the birds although one completely plugged the air flow
between the cylinders on the pilots side.

>you find the most birds, GA planes typically have slowed down quite a
>bit. A bird can usually avoid anything going less than 90 knots - don't
>forget they get lots of flying practise as they may fly most of the day.

We had a Cherokee 180 landing when a starling went through the prop,
around the side and *through* the window (not the windshield) on the
pilot's side. Took out most of the window.

>
>I have spent quite a bit of time gaggle soaring my glider with seagulls.
>I try to thermal in the same direction as the birds (and the Ka-8 goes
>about the same speed) but occasionally a lone bird will join the thermal
>the wrong way. I've had a few of these opposite direction birds get
>close, but they are always pretty good at dodging.

They may be predictable in thermals, but near the ground Seagulls are
a brainless as ducks. I'd say a many as half a dozen get hit every
year here at our little airport. At least their buddies clean up the
runway in short order.

>
>Interestingly, they've just re-introduced the Great Bustard to its
>former habitat in Wiltshire (it was hunted to extinction in the 18th
>century). This bird is the heaviest flying bird in the world - weighing
>up to 50lbs with a 7ft wingspan. I'd love to soar my glider with one,
>but I'd hate to hit one!

Every once in a while we read of collisions with turkey buzzards here
in the states. (I don't know the difference between a Turkey buzzard
and Great Bustard) I don't know about Ron's experience, but most are
described as decidedly unpleasant. It's bad enough hit and kill one,
but you better hope that sucker is *dead* as they have a very
obnoxious and unpleasant way of "fighting back", or getting even.

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

[Dylan Smith]

In article >, Ron Natalie wrote:
>> bit. A bird can usually avoid anything going less than 90 knots - don't
>> forget they get lots of flying practise as they may fly most of the day.
>
> Tell that to the Turkey Buzzard I hit at 80 knots at 2000 AGL in the Skyhawk.

That's why I said 'usually'. If they didn't, we'd be continously
scraping bird guts off our planes instead of bug guts.

--
Dylan Smith, Castletown, Isle of Man
Flying: http://www.dylansmith.net
Frontier Elite Universe: http://www.alioth.net
"Maintain thine airspeed, lest the ground come up and smite thee"

[Orval Fairbairn]

In article >,
Dylan Smith > wrote:

> In article <nospam-8F2145.22212702082004@shawnews>, tony roberts wrote:
> > This reminds me of the old discussion on formation flight.
> > Why do we want to fly close enough to someone who is not trained in
> > formation flight so that we can wave to him?
> > We just saw him 20 minutes ago, and we'll see him again in 10 minutes
> > when we land.
> >
> > We don't need to bloody wave to him from 20ft wingtip to wingtip!
> >
> > I am seriously starting to doubt whether it's me that is missing
> > something, or everyone else!
>
> Yes - you are missing something, quite a lot in fact if you think we fly
> formation just to wave at our friends. There are many reasons to fly
> formation in civil aircraft - the most common is to get in-flight
> photographs of another aircraft, but quite often it's done because when
> done well, it is very rewarding. The only 'waving' we do at the other
> pilot is hand signals.
>
> One of my most rewarding cross country flights was Houston to Oshkosh
> and back again - almost 25 hours of formation flying with a C170 and a
> C140.


AMEN to that! Formation flying is a precision maneuver -- not to be
taken casually. It requires that everybody knows the signals and
protocols associated with formation flying. The T34 Assn. has a good
formation flying manual, as do the Swift Assn. and the Yak Assn.

Every flight should both brief and debrief, so everybody knows what went
right as well as what needs improvement.

BTW, Dylan, do you know Ian McFayden, at the Isle of Man?

[Dave Stadt]

"Orval Fairbairn" > wrote in message
...
> In article >,
> Dylan Smith > wrote:
>
> > In article <nospam-8F2145.22212702082004@shawnews>, tony roberts wrote:
> > > This reminds me of the old discussion on formation flight.
> > > Why do we want to fly close enough to someone who is not trained in
> > > formation flight so that we can wave to him?
> > > We just saw him 20 minutes ago, and we'll see him again in 10 minutes
> > > when we land.
> > >
> > > We don't need to bloody wave to him from 20ft wingtip to wingtip!
> > >
> > > I am seriously starting to doubt whether it's me that is missing
> > > something, or everyone else!
> >
> > Yes - you are missing something, quite a lot in fact if you think we fly
> > formation just to wave at our friends. There are many reasons to fly
> > formation in civil aircraft - the most common is to get in-flight
> > photographs of another aircraft, but quite often it's done because when
> > done well, it is very rewarding. The only 'waving' we do at the other
> > pilot is hand signals.
> >
> > One of my most rewarding cross country flights was Houston to Oshkosh
> > and back again - almost 25 hours of formation flying with a C170 and a
> > C140.
>
>
> AMEN to that! Formation flying is a precision maneuver -- not to be
> taken casually. It requires that everybody knows the signals and
> protocols associated with formation flying. The T34 Assn. has a good
> formation flying manual, as do the Swift Assn. and the Yak Assn.
>
> Every flight should both brief and debrief, so everybody knows what went
> right as well as what needs improvement.
>
> BTW, Dylan, do you know Ian McFayden, at the Isle of Man?

A couple of advantages formation flying provides is extra sets of eyes to
help see and avoid and a larger object for others to see.

[Dylan Smith]

In article .
earthlink.net>, Orval Fairbairn wrote:
> BTW, Dylan, do you know Ian McFayden, at the Isle of Man?

Yes, he's the Governor and he sometimes flies and does a bit of
instruction at the glider club. I don't think his schedule allows him to
get out much though!

--
Dylan Smith, Castletown, Isle of Man
Flying: http://www.dylansmith.net
Frontier Elite Universe: http://www.alioth.net
"Maintain thine airspeed, lest the ground come up and smite thee"

[Dylan Smith]

In article .
earthlink.net>, Orval Fairbairn wrote:
>> > BTW, Dylan, do you know Ian McFayden, at the Isle of Man?
>>
>> Yes, he's the Governor and he sometimes flies and does a bit of
>> instruction at the glider club. I don't think his schedule allows him to
>> get out much though!
>
>
> He is an occasional visitor(He has several friends here) to Spruce
> Creek, in Florida and flies with our Gaggle Flight when here.

Cue discussion about how "it's a small world". When I was living in
Houston, one of the ATC guys from Ronaldsway airport turned up at
Houston Gulf...

--
Dylan Smith, Castletown, Isle of Man
Flying: http://www.dylansmith.net
Frontier Elite Universe: http://www.alioth.net
"Maintain thine airspeed, lest the ground come up and smite thee"

[tony roberts]

>There are many reasons to fly
> formation in civil aircraft - the most common is to get in-flight
> photographs of another aircraft, but quite often it's done because when
> done well, it is very rewarding. The only 'waving' we do at the other
> pilot is hand signals.

Agreed - when it's done by people who know what they are doing it is a
demonstration of precision aircraft control, and great practice - and
very rewarding to the pilots. For superb examples look no further than
Blue Angels, Red Arrows and Snowbirds.

However, I believe you already know that this is not what I was
referring to.

I was specifically talking about the clowns who have no interest in
learning one single thing after receiving their PP-ASEL (often not even
that) who nevertheless go out and fly wingtip to wingtip, with idiotic
grin firmly in place, and one hand off the yoke to wave with, and create
next weeks NTSB reports.

But you knew that, didn't you?

--

Tony Roberts
PP-ASEL
VFR OTT
Night
Almost Instrument :)
Cessna 172H C-GICE

[William W. Plummer]

tony roberts wrote:

>>There are many reasons to fly
>>formation in civil aircraft - the most common is to get in-flight
>>photographs of another aircraft, but quite often it's done because when
>>done well, it is very rewarding. The only 'waving' we do at the other
>>pilot is hand signals.
>
>
> Agreed - when it's done by people who know what they are doing it is a
> demonstration of precision aircraft control, and great practice - and
> very rewarding to the pilots. For superb examples look no further than
> Blue Angels, Red Arrows and Snowbirds.
>
> However, I believe you already know that this is not what I was
> referring to.
>
> I was specifically talking about the clowns who have no interest in
> learning one single thing after receiving their PP-ASEL (often not even
> that) who nevertheless go out and fly wingtip to wingtip, with idiotic
> grin firmly in place, and one hand off the yoke to wave with, and create
> next weeks NTSB reports.
>
> But you knew that, didn't you?
>
Formation flying (was Re: Buzzing Fatality)

If you want a little experience flying in formation, go get a glider
(aero-tow) ticket. During take off, you are flying in formation with
the tow plane although you will be 200' away. Your job is to avoid
crashing the tow plane by jerking it around. Once you get the hang of
it, it's easy enough, but I can't imagine what being 3' away from
another airplane would be like.

[Paul Sengupta]

"William W. Plummer" > wrote in message
news:9E4Tc.301121$XM6.76668@attbi_s53...
>I can't imagine what being 3' away from
> another airplane would be like.

Scary!

Mind you, 3' would be rather too scary.

Paul (just come back from my second formation flying weekend
ready for "the big one" - 21 ship - in a fortnight's time)

[Orval Fairbairn]

In article >,
"Paul Sengupta" > wrote:

> "William W. Plummer" > wrote in message
> news:9E4Tc.301121$XM6.76668@attbi_s53...
> >I can't imagine what being 3' away from
> > another airplane would be like.
>
> Scary!
>
> Mind you, 3' would be rather too scary.
>
> Paul (just come back from my second formation flying weekend
> ready for "the big one" - 21 ship - in a fortnight's time)
>
>

Not when both pilots know what they are doing! Normal close formation
discipline is 3' down (wingtip to wingtip), 3' outside (wingtip to
wingtip) and 45 degrees back for wingmen.

It is a lot easier to maintain close formation than more spread out. Do
not try it until you review a good formation manual (the T-34 Assn.
publishes a good one), review the hand signals and get some formation
instructors.

All itt takes is brief, practice, debrief; brief, practice, debrief, etc.

[Paul Sengupta]

"Orval Fairbairn" > wrote in message
...
> In article >,
> "Paul Sengupta" > wrote:
>
> > "William W. Plummer" > wrote in message
> > news:9E4Tc.301121$XM6.76668@attbi_s53...
> > >I can't imagine what being 3' away from
> > > another airplane would be like.
> >
> > Scary!
> >
> > Mind you, 3' would be rather too scary.
>
> Not when both pilots know what they are doing! Normal close formation
> discipline is 3' down (wingtip to wingtip), 3' outside (wingtip to
> wingtip) and 45 degrees back for wingmen.

Doesn't that make it more than 3' away then?

> It is a lot easier to maintain close formation than more spread out.

If you're confident and skillful enough to do it yes, especially in steep
turns.

> Do not try it until you review a good formation manual

Got the RAF manual.

> review the hand signals

You want me to fly close formation AND make/watch for hand
signals? :-)

> and get some formation instructors.

Got some of those. All current/ex-RAF/red arrows/display pilots.

> All itt takes is brief, practice, debrief; brief, practice, debrief, etc.

Phew. Yes.

Paul

[G.R. Patterson III]

Paul Sengupta wrote:
>
> "Orval Fairbairn" > wrote in message
> ...
> > In article >,
> > "Paul Sengupta" > wrote:
> >
> > > Mind you, 3' would be rather too scary.
> >
> > Not when both pilots know what they are doing! Normal close formation
> > discipline is 3' down (wingtip to wingtip), 3' outside (wingtip to
> > wingtip) and 45 degrees back for wingmen.
>
> Doesn't that make it more than 3' away then?

Yep. About 4.25'.

George Patterson
If you want to know God's opinion of money, just look at the people
he gives it to.

[Orval Fairbairn]

In article >,
"Paul Sengupta" > wrote:

> "Orval Fairbairn" > wrote in message
> ...
> > In article >,
> > "Paul Sengupta" > wrote:
> >
> > > "William W. Plummer" > wrote in message
> > > news:9E4Tc.301121$XM6.76668@attbi_s53...
> > > >I can't imagine what being 3' away from
> > > > another airplane would be like.
> > >
> > > Scary!
> > >
> > > Mind you, 3' would be rather too scary.
> >
> > Not when both pilots know what they are doing! Normal close formation
> > discipline is 3' down (wingtip to wingtip), 3' outside (wingtip to
> > wingtip) and 45 degrees back for wingmen.
>
> Doesn't that make it more than 3' away then?
>
> > It is a lot easier to maintain close formation than more spread out.
>
> If you're confident and skillful enough to do it yes, especially in steep
> turns.

That's where it helps to keep it in tight, as it requires less power on
the outside of turns. Remember, the throttle is your most important
control! It also requires less throttle reduction on the inside of turns.



> > Do not try it until you review a good formation manual
>
> Got the RAF manual.

Good!



> > review the hand signals
>
> You want me to fly close formation AND make/watch for hand
> signals? :-)


You ALWAYS keep your Lead's head in sight! That way you can see the
signals. Every plane has some references to use for formation flight.
On T-34s and Bonanzas it is the intersection of the aileron/flap
trailing edge and the rear cowl fastener.




> > and get some formation instructors.
>
> Got some of those. All current/ex-RAF/red arrows/display pilots.
>
> > All itt takes is brief, practice, debrief; brief, practice, debrief, etc.
>
> Phew. Yes.


Sounds as if you are on the right track!

[Big John]

William

Do you flinch when you are driving side by side to another auto at 80
mph on the freeway?

In formation you are at the same airspeed as the other bird (after
join up) and it is no more difficult than driving side by side on
freeway.

I'll agree you do need to keep your eyes open for a leader who turns
rapidly into you with no warning signal.

Big John (as comfortable in formation as sitting in my wheel chair)
`````````````````````````````````````````````````` `````````````````````````````````````````````````` ``````

On Fri, 13 Aug 2004 14:56:13 GMT, "William W. Plummer"
> wrote:

>tony roberts wrote:
>
>>>There are many reasons to fly
>>>formation in civil aircraft - the most common is to get in-flight
>>>photographs of another aircraft, but quite often it's done because when
>>>done well, it is very rewarding. The only 'waving' we do at the other
>>>pilot is hand signals.
>>
>>
>> Agreed - when it's done by people who know what they are doing it is a
>> demonstration of precision aircraft control, and great practice - and
>> very rewarding to the pilots. For superb examples look no further than
>> Blue Angels, Red Arrows and Snowbirds.
>>
>> However, I believe you already know that this is not what I was
>> referring to.
>>
>> I was specifically talking about the clowns who have no interest in
>> learning one single thing after receiving their PP-ASEL (often not even
>> that) who nevertheless go out and fly wingtip to wingtip, with idiotic
>> grin firmly in place, and one hand off the yoke to wave with, and create
>> next weeks NTSB reports.
>>
>> But you knew that, didn't you?
>>
>Formation flying (was Re: Buzzing Fatality)
>
>If you want a little experience flying in formation, go get a glider
>(aero-tow) ticket. During take off, you are flying in formation with
>the tow plane although you will be 200' away. Your job is to avoid
>crashing the tow plane by jerking it around. Once you get the hang of
>it, it's easy enough, but I can't imagine what being 3' away from
>another airplane would be like.

[William W. Plummer]

Big John wrote:
>
> William
>
> Do you flinch when you are driving side by side to another auto at 80
> mph on the freeway?
>
> In formation you are at the same airspeed as the other bird (after
> join up) and it is no more difficult than driving side by side on
> freeway.
>
> I'll agree you do need to keep your eyes open for a leader who turns
> rapidly into you with no warning signal.
>
> Big John (as comfortable in formation as sitting in my wheel chair)
> `````````````````````````````````````````````````` `````````````````````````````````````````````````` ``````
>
> On Fri, 13 Aug 2004 14:56:13 GMT, "William W. Plummer"
> > wrote:
>
>
>>tony roberts wrote:
>>
>>
>>>>There are many reasons to fly
>>>>formation in civil aircraft - the most common is to get in-flight
>>>>photographs of another aircraft, but quite often it's done because when
>>>>done well, it is very rewarding. The only 'waving' we do at the other
>>>>pilot is hand signals.
>>>
>>>
>>>Agreed - when it's done by people who know what they are doing it is a
>>>demonstration of precision aircraft control, and great practice - and
>>>very rewarding to the pilots. For superb examples look no further than
>>>Blue Angels, Red Arrows and Snowbirds.
>>>
>>>However, I believe you already know that this is not what I was
>>>referring to.
>>>
>>>I was specifically talking about the clowns who have no interest in
>>>learning one single thing after receiving their PP-ASEL (often not even
>>>that) who nevertheless go out and fly wingtip to wingtip, with idiotic
>>>grin firmly in place, and one hand off the yoke to wave with, and create
>>>next weeks NTSB reports.
>>>
>>>But you knew that, didn't you?
>>>
>>
>>Formation flying (was Re: Buzzing Fatality)
>>
>>If you want a little experience flying in formation, go get a glider
>>(aero-tow) ticket. During take off, you are flying in formation with
>>the tow plane although you will be 200' away. Your job is to avoid
>>crashing the tow plane by jerking it around. Once you get the hang of
>>it, it's easy enough, but I can't imagine what being 3' away from
>>another airplane would be like.
>
>
The driver in a car on the Autobahn flinched at 220 km/hr because he
suddenly spotted a car in the right lane while we were in the left lane.
At that speed a 10 degree heading error means 13 feet/sec side wise
movement. The driver over corrected, a tire folded under. We rolled
and spun and ended up in a ditch in the woods. All four of us recovered
but the incident indicates how dangerous formation flying can be.
Mercedes is a good car because it saved our lives. All Hertz wanted to
know what how many km we put on the car at the time we abandoned it!

[Jack]

William W. Plummer wrote:

> The driver in a car on the Autobahn flinched at 220 km/hr because he
> suddenly spotted a car in the right lane while we were in the left lane.
> At that speed a 10 degree heading error means 13 feet/sec side wise
> movement. The driver over corrected, a tire folded under. We rolled
> and spun and ended up in a ditch in the woods. All four of us recovered
> but the incident indicates how dangerous formation flying can be.
> Mercedes is a good car because it saved our lives.

Not a legitimate comparison.



Jack