Re: Wrong pilot detained for TFR violation

[gatt]

"C J Campbell" > wrote in message

> Actually, some people who have been detained and accused of belonging to
al
> Qaeda, plotting various terrorist acts and even fighting on behalf of al
> Qaeda and the Taliban are American citizens. This has raised enormous
legal
> issues and you would have to be living in a cave somewhere not to know
about
> it.

Very true, and a point worthy of consideration, but...seriously...they are
quite literally chasing the wrong people, as in this case. Here in
Portland, when The Hunted was being filmed, they actually scrambled a flight
of armed F-15s that screamed over downtown looking to intercept an
ultralight that flew out of Scappoose something like four hours
previous--over an hour beyond that particular aircraft's fuel endurance.

The day Al Queda has to resort to flying ultralights into things, we can
lower the alert level to Green 'cause they're clearly out of better ideas.
:>

-c

[Tom S.]

"Bob Noel" > wrote in message
...
> In article >, Eduardo Kaftanski
> > wrote:
>
> > Terrorists won this battle. American lifestyle now sucks.
>
> still better than anywhere else.
>
Quite!!

It's going to be interesting when the **** _really_ hits the fan in the next
few years. Think people are whining now? Ya ain't seen nuthin' yet

[Tom S.]

"Newps" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> > In article >, Eduardo Kaftanski
> > > wrote:
> >
> >
> >>Terrorists won this battle. American lifestyle now sucks.
>
> Maybe yours does, mine gets better every year.
>

You must have a _relatively_ short memory. :~)

[Newps]

Peter Gottlieb wrote:

> "Newps" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>>>Terrorists won this battle. American lifestyle now sucks.
>>
>>Maybe yours does, mine gets better every year.
>>
>
>
> Is that because as you get older you get more blind and deaf?

Nope, it's because my lifestyle gets better and better.

[Newps]

Tom S. wrote:

> "Newps" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>
>>>In article >, Eduardo Kaftanski
> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>Terrorists won this battle. American lifestyle now sucks.
>>
>>Maybe yours does, mine gets better every year.
>>
>
>
> You must have a _relatively_ short memory. :~)

About what? No politician, as idiotic as they may or may not be, is
going to ruin my life. If they do yours then you need to get a life.

[Tom S.]

"Newps" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> Peter Gottlieb wrote:
>
> > "Newps" > wrote in message
> > ...
> >
> >>>>Terrorists won this battle. American lifestyle now sucks.
> >>
> >>Maybe yours does, mine gets better every year.
> >>
> >
> >
> > Is that because as you get older you get more blind and deaf?
>
> Nope, it's because my lifestyle gets better and better.

Bad move to equate "technical convenience" with "liberty".

[Paul Sengupta]

"Tom S." > wrote in message
...
>
> "Newps" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > > In article >, Eduardo Kaftanski
> > > > wrote:
> > >
> > >>Terrorists won this battle. American lifestyle now sucks.
> >
> > Maybe yours does, mine gets better every year.
>
> You must have a _relatively_ short memory. :~)

The older I get, the better I was.

(as quoted from a T-shirt)

Paul

[Paul Sengupta]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
news:HyCRc.114936$eM2.55381@attbi_s51...
> I'm here to tell
> you that -- outside of those few areas -- NOTHING has changed.
>
> Read that again: NOTHING has changed. Life continues precisely as
> before -- no restrictions, no security checks, no inconveniences of any
> kind.

Well I did get told to step out of my taxi by the TSA because I'd taken
a photo of the sign which said "Cedar Rapids Airport". I showed them
the photo I'd taken (digital camera) and they let me go on my way.

Oh, and when leaving, I had to take my shoes off and stick them through
the x-ray machine! :-)

Paul

[Ron Natalie]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message news:muBRc.272019$XM6.94557@attbi_s53...

> Closing Reagan National to G.A. traffic IS a travesty that must (and will)
> be corrected -- but it's hardly an issue that AFFECTS the pilot community in
> a huge way. And to say that it equates to the statement that our lifestyle
> "sucks" is just silly.
>
I'm not talking about DCA...come to within 30 miles of Washington or Baltimore
and ask your question again. Just because things are peachy in Iowa, doesn't mean
those who live, work, and fly in the NE are unaffected.

[Jay Honeck]

> Well I did get told to step out of my taxi by the TSA because I'd taken
> a photo of the sign which said "Cedar Rapids Airport". I showed them
> the photo I'd taken (digital camera) and they let me go on my way.
>
> Oh, and when leaving, I had to take my shoes off and stick them through
> the x-ray machine! :-)

I was talking about the impact on Americans, Paul. I think it goes without
saying that foreign nationals have come under much greater scrutiny since
9/11. This shouldn't come as any surprise, since they came under virtually
NO scrutiny prior to 9/11.

Actually, if TSA DIDN'T question you, I'd be wondering what those extra 20
bodies in Cedar Rapids were doing all day... (Playing cribbage mostly, I
suspect.)

And commercial flying is the one area where the general public has been
genuinely impacted -- and rightfully so. It's become way less convenient
to fly the airlines, which is yet another reason to fly your own plane,
IMHO.

:-)
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[G.R. Patterson III]

Jay Honeck wrote:
>
> Welcome to the real world outside the beltline, Ron. Those are
> window-dressing, puff-piece things that only a tiny, tiny minority give a
> **** about. Adding extra security to a few high-risk targets hardly
> translates into a loss of civil rights.

Nonsense. Police in Manhattan are walking their beats with submachine guns now. Every
5th car entering the city is stopped and searched. All trucks are stopped and
searched and are prohibited in much of the city. The owner of one of the HVAC dealers
on Long Island reports that this has cut the number of service calls he can handle in
half (basically destroying his business). He's typical of anyone with a large
vehicle. Commuters now have to allow about an extra hour every day for the security
checks, both on the street and at the office. If you were to drive the purple grape
anywhere around the area, it would be confiscated. Every law against unreasonable
search and siezure that has been passed in the last 30 years is now completely
ignored.

George Patterson
In Idaho, tossing a rattlesnake into a crowded room is felony assault.
In Tennessee, it's evangelism.

[G.R. Patterson III]

Ron Natalie wrote:
>
> "G.R. Patterson III" > wrote in message ...
> >
> >> By the way, you bragged once about how little the local Holiday Inn gives you for the
> > same money you charge for a suite. If you're charging Holiday Inn prices, you do NOT
> > have a luxury priced hotel. You have a moderately priced hotel. That basically means
> > that the recession is not going to be reflected in the number of rooms you rent.
> >
> He didn't say luxury-priced, he said luxury suites.

I know that, but he attempts to prove the economy is doing well by the fact that
people have the money to stay at his "luxury hotel". They have the money to do that
because it's a cheap hotel, even if it is a luxury hotel as well.

George Patterson
In Idaho, tossing a rattlesnake into a crowded room is felony assault.
In Tennessee, it's evangelism.

[G.R. Patterson III]

Jay Honeck wrote:
>
> Please try again, this time explaining what it's got to do with my starting
> up a (thus far, successful) new business during the supposedly "crippling"
> recession,

As you are well aware, you are living in a University town, Jay. State universities
usually boom during recessions. People who had intended to send kids elsewhere decide
that the home State school is good enough and cheaper. Graduates emerge from the
womb, take a look at the job market, and decide to pursue a Master's degree after
all. About the only businesses that do better than the schools are the bars, though
the most expensive of both tend to suffer.

That boom at the school is also reflected in good business for the service industries
in university towns. That's you. You're living in an oasis, but the economy in
general is as poor as the Times says it is.

And, yes, the reason your business is growing is because you provide value compared
to your competition. It's certainly not because the recession isn't real.

George Patterson
In Idaho, tossing a rattlesnake into a crowded room is felony assault.
In Tennessee, it's evangelism.

[Peter Gottlieb]

"Newps" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> Peter Gottlieb wrote:
>
> > "Newps" > wrote in message
> > ...
> >
> >>>>Terrorists won this battle. American lifestyle now sucks.
> >>
> >>Maybe yours does, mine gets better every year.
> >>
> >
> >
> > Is that because as you get older you get more blind and deaf?
>
> Nope, it's because my lifestyle gets better and better.
>

You thought that was a serious question?

[Peter Gottlieb]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
news:xUxRc.269427$Oq2.35837@attbi_s52...
> > Terrorists won this battle. American lifestyle now sucks.
>
> Can any American on this group back Eduardo's statement up with facts?
> Anyone at all?
>
> Personally, I haven't noticed one single, solitary iota of difference
> between my pre-9/11 lifestyle, and my post-9/11 lifestyle, other than
pop-up
> TFRs. And those effect very few pilots, who themselves represent less
than
> 1% of the populace.
>


It depends on where you live. In the NY area GA took a very big hit with
major restrictions closing the area for months, all sorts of security
restrictions (admitedly not all bad), and a large percentage of those pop-up
TFRs you mention.

[Paul Sengupta]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
news:HnKRc.117977$eM2.7584@attbi_s51...
> I was talking about the impact on Americans, Paul. I think it goes
without
> saying that foreign nationals have come under much greater scrutiny since
> 9/11. This shouldn't come as any surprise, since they came under virtually
> NO scrutiny prior to 9/11.

They would have had no idea what nationality I was. It was a domestic
flight from Chicago (though I wouldn't imagine there's airline service from
Cedar Rapids to London!).

> Actually, if TSA DIDN'T question you, I'd be wondering what those extra 20
> bodies in Cedar Rapids were doing all day... (Playing cribbage mostly, I
> suspect.)

There are 20 of them?? Blimey. I suspect they were bored too.
They were pleasant enough. Was a bit strange that they didn't ask
me there and then why I was taking a photograph and followed me
out to knock on the taxi window just as we were about to drive off!
I would guess they would have hoped that I had driven off, then they
could just get back to their cribbage! :-)

As a European used to airline security, it only becomes annoying if
there are long queues. Flying BA from Dusseldorf is annoying because
BA have their own x-ray machines, so you have to go through two
lots of security. It made sense when the airport machines were the
old type, but now they've upgraded to (as far as I can tell) exactly
the same machines as BA use upstairs.

Paul

[Tom S.]

"Bob Noel" > wrote in message
...
> In article >, "Tom S."
> > wrote:
>
> > > > > liberty and lifestyle are the same?
> > > > >
> > > > Isn't yours?
> > >
> > > two different concepts.
> >
> > Yes...but the first determines the second.
>
> not always. and not completely.
>
Pretty much always and completely...unless you're an aesthetic.

Let me see if I've got this right: Your lifestyle (or most peoples) wouldn't
be that much different if they lived in ...say, South America someplace?

[Paul Sengupta]

"G.R. Patterson III" > wrote in message
...
> the economy in
> general is as poor as the Times says it is.
>
> And, yes, the reason your business is growing is because you provide value
compared
> to your competition. It's certainly not because the recession isn't real.

On a purely selfish note, if the US economy had been better
then the £<>$ rate may have meant my recent holiday would
have become unaffordable... :-)

Unfortunately, it means that it's too expensive for my US friends
to come to visit me... :-(

Paul

[Jack]

Tom S. wrote:

[ liberty and lifestyle are the same] unless you're an aesthetic.


Though I am not "a guiding principle in matters of artistic beauty and
taste", I could be of course.

Let's take a look at the possible alternatives;

atheist -- Nope, not that either;
anesthetic -- Only when I really get off on a rant;
ascetic -- Not me, for sure!

In fact, liberty is necessary for the "American lifestyle", but then so
is money. If you want both, best to follow our example, but even an
ascetic needs the freedom to be left alone to pursue his principles,
especially since we tend to use the term to describe someone who
"renounces material comforts and leads a life of austere self-discipline
as an act of religious devotion."


Jack

[Bob Noel]

In article >, "Tom S."
> wrote:

> "Bob Noel" > wrote in message
> ...
> > In article >, "Tom S."
> > > wrote:
> >
> > > > > > liberty and lifestyle are the same?
> > > > > >
> > > > > Isn't yours?
> > > >
> > > > two different concepts.
> > >
> > > Yes...but the first determines the second.
> >
> > not always. and not completely.
> >
> Pretty much always and completely...unless you're an aesthetic.

can't agree.

Everyone has the same liberty here in the US. However, there
is a vast difference in lifestyles.


> Let me see if I've got this right: Your lifestyle (or most peoples)
> wouldn't
> be that much different if they lived in ...say, South America someplace?

Many things affect lifestyle, not just liberty.

--
Bob Noel
Seen on Kerry's campaign airplane: "the real deal"
oh yeah baby.

[Roger Halstead]

On Sun, 08 Aug 2004 08:55:34 -0600, Newps > wrote:

>
>
>Peter Gottlieb wrote:
>
>> "Newps" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>
>>>>>Terrorists won this battle. American lifestyle now sucks.
>>>
>>>Maybe yours does, mine gets better every year.
>>>
>>
>>
>> Is that because as you get older you get more blind and deaf?
>
>Nope, it's because my lifestyle gets better and better.

Wellll... Let's see. I do have more money now than I had 45 years
ago. *Maybe* more spendable even being retired.

But:

45 years ago I didn't have any concern about government regulations
altering my life style, or at least very few.

I didn't have politicians screwing with my retirement.

American products were considered high quality, planned obsolescence
not withstanding.

Most of the world considered us the good guys.
My folks taught me to judge people on what they did, not who they were
or what they looked like and to always give the benefit of the doubt
even if it cost me a bit.

I didn't have any concerns about regulations limiting where I could
go. I could walk out to transient parking at Detroit Metro without an
escort. I just opened a door and walked out. Now I need an escort to
get back to my own plane at class C and D airports.

I didn't have to worry about someone trying to take my guns away and I
could purchase *almost* anything I could afford. I could even
purchase a fully functional Thompson, although the license was too
steep for me. "Guns & Ammo" even had an article where they purchased
a 20mm cannon, converted it to a bolt action and went "plinking" with
HE ammo.

I didn't have to be concerned about Broad Band over Power lines (BPL)
trashing the frequencies on which I operate my ham station.
Admittedly my Receiver weighed 75#, My transmitter 95# and the power
amp was 113# while today I have a 100 Watt transceiver that has a
spectrum display built in and it only weighs about 15# and there are
units small enough to backpack.

I didn't have to worry about dependence on foreign oil even if the
three carbs on my Pontiac sounded like they were trying to suck the
hood through them, or driving a Chevy convertible with dual 4s where
the speedometer and gas gage raced to see which got to the peg first.
Actually the Pontiac got around 18 MPG if you didn't open the front
and back carbs. OTOH my cousin's Chevy convertible (the one above) got
about 8 MPH on a good day... a very good day, going down hill with a
very strong tail wind.

I smoked two packs a day, didn't know they were bad for me, and felt
great. I could eat a stack of pancakes coated with real butter and
*soaked* in real maple syrup ( I used the pancakes to hold the butter
and syrup together) , 4 eggs, 4 slices of toast, and two cups of
coffee for breakfast, eat a big lunch, and have a dinner/supper big
enough to sink a small boat and never put on a pound. I had good
blood pressure and didn't know what cholesterol was. Now I exercise,
eat right, live a healthy life style, and I have to watch my
cholesterol and blood pressure.

When I was 16 I could walk into the hardware store to purchase a case
of dynamite, caps, and fuse (and did quite often). I did the
dynamiting for the neighboring farmers. Can you imagine a 16 year old
kid pulling up on a Hog, filling the saddle bags with dynamite and
taking off today?

I had a full driver's license at age 14, not a farm permit. I had my
own car at 16 even if it was 12 years old. Of course a car with
50,000 to 60,000 miles was pretty well "run out" back then.

Dawn Patrols and "The Flying Farmers" fly-ins would cover the airports
with small planes. Now a good fly-in breakfast is a 100 to 200
airplanes. Actually 200 is a rarity around here.

They were building *more* airports.

At just under $3 per hour I made more than almost any of the guys I
went to high school with.

I had a full head of bright red hair. Now I have a fringe around the
edges and have more hair growing out of my ears than on my head.

Back then I had 20/10 vision in both eyes. Now I wear bi-focals.

Now days a cheap, economy car will cost about twice what my first home
cost and it was a nice home. (I'm not counting the divorce - I came
out ahead)

My second marriage has lasted far longer than the first (20 years next
month) Course the first one seemed a lot longer and this one has
seemed like only a few years. As the old saying goes; Time goes faster
when you're having fun<:-))

So, yes, in some ways my lifestyle gets better and better. I'm lazy,
retired, and don't have to work, But in many areas I have far more
restrictions, and have lost precious freedoms. Many countries and
groups are jealous of the freedoms we still have, let alone what we
had and they work actively to reduce our freedoms to their levels
under many guises.

Yes, there are many things I can no longer do and it's not due to my
age, but there is one thing they can never take away. As he was
leaving this world my dad told me he was proud of me.

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

[Tom S.]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
news:fKXRc.277186$Oq2.192945@attbi_s52...
> > How about the creation of the Department of Homeland Security, which
> > costs how many millions of our taxdollars?
>
> A stupid waste of taxpayers money, almost on the same level as President
> Johnson's "Great Society" experiment. But, hey, we're getting a Rain
> Forest built in Iowa City, at the federal gubmint's expense, too.
>
> Which one is dumber?

Both are dumb, but the first of the three is related to what they are
constitutionally charged with doing.

[Peter Gottlieb]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
news:ZjXRc.277044$Oq2.63017@attbi_s52...
>
> The government has intertwined itself into so many parts of our lives,
> thanks to the liberal agenda for the past 40 years -- that we will never
> regain the freedoms we once enjoyed.
>

Perhaps you would enjoy rule by the Taliban instead. Would that be
conservative enough for you?

Are you so fooled by the "conservative" groups to believe they don't want to
get into our lives at least as much as the "liberal" ones?

Can you not see that the titles are there to fool us, that it is the power
itself that corrupts?

[Roger Halstead]

On Tue, 10 Aug 2004 04:35:34 GMT, Larry Dighera >
wrote:

>On Tue, 10 Aug 2004 03:16:34 GMT, "Jay Honeck"
> wrote in
><m6XRc.276981$Oq2.266297@attbi_s52>::
>
>>I now check with Flight Service
>>for TFRs -- but I always called them for a flight briefing before each
>>flight anyway.
>
>Well, almost always:
>http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&th=2a7f2d326faabc6e&rnum=1

Shucks, that don't always do it either.
I had a flight brienfing, (CAVU) with flight following. It was a
beautiful clear day. I hit turbulence so strong south of Toledo the
Deb stalled in level flight at Va.

It only existed for maybe 5 to 10 miles and then it was smooth again.

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

[Roger Halstead]

On Tue, 10 Aug 2004 04:22:20 GMT, "Peter Gottlieb"
> wrote:

>
>"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
>news:tJWRc.276896$Oq2.265338@attbi_s52...
>>
>> Personally, I had no clue why anyone chose to work or live in New York
>> before 9/11.
>>
>
>A lot of people live in big cities and a lot of them wouldn't live anywhere
>else. If you really cannot understand why they feel that way then you will
>not understand their attitudes about gun laws and other social issues
>(independently of who is more "right" or "wrong").
You are right.

I can understand why some one would want to live in a city, but I've
nver been able to follow their attitudes about social issues and gun
laws. To me their reasoning defies stastics and logic.

OTOH I've never been able to understand how society can ignore nearly
50,000 deaths a year on the highway.

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

>

[Peter Duniho]

Way off topic at this point, but it's late and I can't resist...

"Roger Halstead" > wrote in message
...
> [...]
> OTOH I've never been able to understand how society can ignore nearly
> 50,000 deaths a year on the highway.

The same way society ignores the enormous financial cost from automobile
accidents (fatal and non-fatal). We could spend a much smaller amount of
money on better driving training and enforcement, but Americans would rather
just go around sending their cars to body shops or buying new ones, spending
money on medical insurance, and waiting for their turn at the courtroom
lottery.

The same thing is true for many other areas of American life. People would
rather waste great huge gobs of money than to start paying better attention
and start taking responsibility for their own actions.

The Wars on Drugs and Terrorism are similarly examples of wastes of money;
they remind me of dilatant fluids, in that the more force one applies, the
less one gets done. We'd be much better off with less expensive, more
subtle approaches.

Even when the economy is going well, but especially when it's in the
doldrums, I am disgusted by the amount of economic waste this country
tolerates and even encourages.

Of course, some might argue that the economy actually *benefits* from all
this waste, by creating "churn". I'm no economist, so I won't try to argue
for or against that point. I do think it's trivially obvious that it's
better in the long run to conserve money.

Anyway, whatever point I had, I'm sure it's in there somewhere. I agree
it's ridiculous how we ignore the deaths on the highway, but there's a
fundamental problem with the average person's thinking (if you can call it
that) that will always prevent us from fixing that, along with a number of
other problems.

One of the costs of having a truly equal society is that even the dumb
people get to vote. And there are a lot more dumb people than smart people.


Pete

[Larry Dighera]

On Tue, 10 Aug 2004 07:31:08 GMT, Roger Halstead
> wrote in
>::

>On Tue, 10 Aug 2004 04:35:34 GMT, Larry Dighera >
>wrote:
>
>>On Tue, 10 Aug 2004 03:16:34 GMT, "Jay Honeck"
> wrote in
>><m6XRc.276981$Oq2.266297@attbi_s52>::
>>
>>>I now check with Flight Service
>>>for TFRs -- but I always called them for a flight briefing before each
>>>flight anyway.
>>
>>Well, almost always:
>>http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&th=2a7f2d326faabc6e&rnum=1
>
>Shucks, that don't always do it either.
>I had a flight brienfing, (CAVU) with flight following. It was a
>beautiful clear day. I hit turbulence so strong south of Toledo the
>Deb stalled in level flight at Va.
>
>It only existed for maybe 5 to 10 miles and then it was smooth again.

As Mr. Honeck stated:

"Turns out that they [Cedar Rapids Approach Control] are getting
PIREPs from pilots all over, reporting moderate to severe
turbulence up to 6000 feet, and beyond."

It's pretty clear, that had Mr. Honeck availed himself of all the
available information as mandated by regulation, he would have been
issued a PIREP for turbulence. And his absolute statement in this
thread concerning obtaining a FSS flight briefing before departing
conflicts what he wrote in that message thread.

[Paul Sengupta]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
news:fKXRc.277186$Oq2.192945@attbi_s52...
> But, hey, we're getting a Rain
> Forest built in Iowa City, at the federal gubmint's expense, too.

I was thinking of this the other day. I was listenning to the local radio
here in Newbury (Kick FM 105.6) and an advert came on for a
rain forest....

http://www.livingrainforest.org/

I never knew this existed!

Paul

[Bob Noel]

In article >,
(Jens Krueger) wrote:

> > But not till after we fix the mess in the Middle East, of course.
>
> That the US very much helped to create.

Bull. The middle east had the hatred and wars and killings before
the US was even a country.

--
Bob Noel
Seen on Kerry's campaign airplane: "the real deal"
oh yeah baby.

[Ron Natalie]

"Jens Krueger" > wrote in message ..

> Closure of the, what, 10 airports in the DC ADIZ? The Seattle TFRs? How
> about the TSA and all that comes with that?

No airports have closed. DCA is effectively closed to GA. VKX, CGS, and
W32 are only open after stringent scrutiny of the pilots and closed to transients
(although businesses at these fields are failing or moving). The only official closure
of ain ADIZ airport was 1W2 which has been scheduled for demolition for several
years now. There are 49 active airports in the ADIZ (of which 23 are public use).

Getting in or out of these requires extensive delays for no reason.

[Ron Natalie]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message news:fKXRc.277186$Oq2.192945@attbi_s52...

> These closures suck, but again they affect a tiny subset of an already tiny
> population of pilots. This doe not represent a major lifestyle change for
> the average American, as Eduaro suggested.

You keepsaying "tiny" but your Iowa-centric mentality defrines AMERICA
by yourself. Maybe 23 airports is only a dozen planes and pilots in Iowa,
but here we're packed in pretty densely. The DC metro area has a population
of over 5 million nearly twice the population of Iowa.

Your statistics of 99.99999999 are spurious.

[Peter Gottlieb]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
news:ZjYRc.259474$JR4.162601@attbi_s54...
>
> Let's not confuse Conservatives with the Religious Right. While many
> religious fruitcakes belong to the Republican Party, they no more
represent
> the norm for that party than do the felons who vote overwhelmingly for the
> Democrats.
> --


I believe the Republicans are losing their party to these religious types
and it is making it a very hard choice for those of us with strong fiscal
(and broader) conservative ideals but who believe strongly in the separation
of church and state.

[Peter Gottlieb]

"Roger Halstead" > wrote in message
...
>
> OTOH I've never been able to understand how society can ignore nearly
> 50,000 deaths a year on the highway.
>

Yeah, that one mystifies me also. Highway deaths are basically ingored yet
exceed most other causes of death that society seems to go nuts over.

[Eduardo Kaftanski]

In article <m6XRc.276981$Oq2.266297@attbi_s52>,
Jay Honeck > wrote:
>
>Come to Iowa, Eduardo. We'll do some flying (using our cheap, sweet car
>gas), have a few cold ones, and you can sit in one of our hot tubs with your
>honey all night long. Maybe we'll take in a play, or visit the Amana
>Colonies. Or perhaps we'll sit on the pedestrian mall, and listen to the
>free Friday Night concert series?

If I go to the US, I will of course go visit you Jay. Iowa sounds
like a place I would love to live in also...




--
Eduardo Kaftanski |
| Freedom's just another word
http://e.nn.cl | for nothing left to loose.
|

[G.R. Patterson III]

Peter Duniho wrote:
>
> One of the costs of having a truly equal society is that even the dumb
> people get to vote. And there are a lot more dumb people than smart people.

This was really brought home to me the other day. I was putting in a shower fixture
at the appartment of a man who is 101 years old. His daughter handles all his
business. He seems to me to be a pleasant simpleton of a guy -- I'm sure that I won't
be that spry at his age, but that's not saying much.

Somebody at the complex came 'round to make sure he registered to vote and set up an
absentee ballot if he can't make it to the polls. And you are correct that this is a
cost that we must pay -- I certainly can't think of a decent alternative.

George Patterson
In Idaho, tossing a rattlesnake into a crowded room is felony assault.
In Tennessee, it's evangelism.

[Neil Gould]

Recently, Andrew Gideon > posted:

> Peter Gottlieb wrote:
>
>> I believe the Republicans are losing their party to these religious
>> types and it is making it a very hard choice for those of us with
>> strong fiscal (and broader) conservative ideals but who believe
>> strongly in the separation of church and state.
>
> Seconded. When I see a "conservative" administration taking actions
> like putting tariffs on steel and pushing for an amendment defining
> marriage, I realize that there's no "Convervative" in that
> "conservative" administration. It's just another kind of liberal.
>
Please. Such positions are ignorantly Fascistic, not liberal. Trying to
sell us on the idea that record deficits are of no concern is liberal.
Fiscal irresponsibility is liberal. So, if the party embraces those that
hold such views, one merely has to decide where they stand on such points.
I don't find the choice all that hard to make.

Neil

[G.R. Patterson III]

Martin Hotze wrote:
>
> I know that men don't love their in laws ... but don't you think that bringing
> her to the vet is a little harsh?

I dunno -- she bites sometimes.

> Hope she is doing OK after all.

That was a followup visit to some tests she had done. She goes in for a carotid
artery scrape next week.

George Patterson
If you want to know God's opinion of money, just look at the people
he gives it to.

[Jay Honeck]

> The big difference I see is the number of people who now live in a state
of
> low-level, nameless fear, and a few more people giving actual voice to
their
> self-centered conspiracy imaginings.

This low-level, nameless fear seems to grip a lot of people, to one degree
or another -- but it was happening long before 9/11.

In fact, if I had to name one thing that holds many people back from greater
success, it would be this odd fear of the unknown. The terrorist attacks
just allowed these folks to attach a new label to their fears.

But that's a whole 'nuther thread, now isn't it?

;-)
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Jay Honeck]

> What about:
>
> This nation was founded by men of many nations and
> backgrounds. It was founded on the principle that
> all men are created equal, and that the rights of
> every man are diminished when the rights of one man
> are threatened.
>
> That we no longer seem to believe this is indication enough of a
"lifestyle"
> problem.

Well put, Andrew.

Personally, I was responding to Eduardo's broadside against American, by
proclaiming that our new lifestyle "sucks." By any common measure, this
is patently false.

The more subtle aspects of our loss of "rights" brought about by the closing
of certain airports is a different topic, in my opinion.

We can start down that road, if you'd like, progressing into the "is flying
a right, or a privilege?" topic, soon to be followed by the inevitable
name-calling...

Or shall we just cut right to the chase, as gentlemen, and start calling
each other "fascists" now?

;-)
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Andrew Gideon]

Neil Gould wrote:


> Please. Such positions are ignorantly Fascistic, not liberal. Trying to
> sell us on the idea that record deficits are of no concern is liberal.
> Fiscal irresponsibility is liberal. So, if the party embraces those that
> hold such views, one merely has to decide where they stand on such points.
> I don't find the choice all that hard to make.

Interesting. I've been under the belief that "liberal" referred to the
freedom with which one read the Constitution and related documents. A
"conservative" reading limits government to what's described, a "liberal"
reading permit government to do whatever the reader thinks the authors
would have intended had they written the documents in the current era.

So what you're calling "liberal" above (a lack of fiscal responsibility) I'd
simply call "stupid" at best (at worse: dishonest, robbing future funds to
buy today's elections). As I understood the term, "liberal" is getting the
federal government involved in defining marriage, or in passing laws
granting the federal government more snooping rights.

Hmm...I suppose that this makes the tariffs not liberal but stupid (or
worse) by my own definition.

However, even using your definition, we've still a pretty liberal
administration in office today: tax breaks combined with war spending?
Deficits rising without consideration of consequences?

What's a good conservative to do?

- Andrew

[Andrew Gideon]

Jay Honeck wrote:

>> What about:
>>
>> This nation was founded by men of many nations and
>> backgrounds. It was founded on the principle that
>> all men are created equal, and that the rights of
>> every man are diminished when the rights of one man
>> are threatened.
>>
>> That we no longer seem to believe this is indication enough of a
> "lifestyle"
>> problem.
>
> Well put, Andrew.

Just to be clear: I didn't write that; I merely took the quote from a JFK
speech. I didn't bother to provide a reference as I assumed people would
recognize it as a quote from the indentation, and either recall it or look
it up.

I expect you know this (judging you from your writing), but I don't want
your "well put" comment (thanks, BTW) to mislead anyone else.

> Personally, I was responding to Eduardo's broadside against American, by
> proclaiming that our new lifestyle "sucks." By any common measure,
> this is patently false.
>
> The more subtle aspects of our loss of "rights" brought about by the
> closing of certain airports is a different topic, in my opinion.

While I find "sucks" too strong, I assume that this was hyperbole. In my
opinion, our lifestyle is a direct reflection of the rights we enjoy. To
even just threaten those rights is to diminish that lifestyle. We're not
at the "sucking" level yet, true, but the warning flags are out.

But be aware that, to me, "lifestyle" includes more than just "standard of
living".

- Andrew

[Neil Gould]

Recently, Andrew Gideon > posted:

> Neil Gould wrote:
>
>> Please. Such positions are ignorantly Fascistic, not liberal. Trying
>> to sell us on the idea that record deficits are of no concern is
>> liberal. Fiscal irresponsibility is liberal. So, if the party
>> embraces those that hold such views, one merely has to decide where
>> they stand on such points. I don't find the choice all that hard to
>> make.
>
> Interesting. I've been under the belief that "liberal" referred to
> the freedom with which one read the Constitution and related
> documents. A "conservative" reading limits government to what's
> described, a "liberal" reading permit government to do whatever the
> reader thinks the authors would have intended had they written the
> documents in the current era.
>
The terms "liberal" and "conservative" have evolved and warped a lot since
those definitions. The politic has pretty much rendered them meaningless
labels used as quick-references for "the other guy". I tend to look at
their behaviors and ignore their rhetoric to determine such things.

> So what you're calling "liberal" above (a lack of fiscal
> responsibility) I'd simply call "stupid" at best (at worse:
> dishonest, robbing future funds to buy today's elections).
>
No argument, here. It *is* stupid, short-sighted, and dishonest.

> Hmm...I suppose that this makes the tariffs not liberal but stupid (or
> worse) by my own definition.
>
> However, even using your definition, we've still a pretty liberal
> administration in office today: tax breaks combined with war spending?
> Deficits rising without consideration of consequences?
>
> What's a good conservative to do?
>
It's called a "clean sweep" over the next two years. Oust every nitwit
that thinks such policies are a good idea, regardless of their party
affiliations. Anything short of that is merely supporting the status quo.

Neil

[Jay Honeck]

> > At least with the rain forest, we'll inherit a big, empty building when
it
> > fails.
>
> Can you build a runway next to it?

No, but I-80 is right next to the site. That'll do, in a pinch...
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Tom S.]

> What about:
>
> This nation was founded by men of many nations and
> backgrounds. It was founded on the principle that
> all men are created equal, and that the rights of
> every man are diminished when the rights of one man
> are threatened.
>
> That we no longer seem to believe this is indication enough of a
> "lifestyle" problem.

Comfort and apathy?

--
"He that would make his own liberty secure,
must guard even his enemy from oppression;
for if he violates this duty, he establishes
a precedent that will reach to himself." -- Thomas Paine

[Tom S.]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
news:gTrSc.131139$eM2.99593@attbi_s51...
> > This is the first time the police (other than SWAT teams) have been
> walking the
> > streets with fully automatic weapons. The commuter searches were in
effect
> for
>
> Can you imagine what the victim's families would say if the Brooklyn
Bridge
> was brought down by a truck full of explosives, and they hadn't been
> searching trucks beforehand?
>
Why, John Edwards old law firm would be suing....

[Tom S.]

"G.R. Patterson III" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> Brian Downing wrote:
> >
> > Heh. In Illinois if you haven't had any moving violations you plug in
> > some data into a web site and they mail you a sticker to put on the back
> > of your old license that gets you four more years. :)
>
> Talk about coincidence -- I just got my renewal notice today. Turns out
that they not
> only require a total of 6 points, there is a small subset of documents
that *must* be
> produced. In my case, I'll either have to write the State of Tennessee and
get a
> certified copy of my birth certificate or renew my passport.
>
> And to pay for this, they tripled the cost of the license and reduced the
term from 6
> years to 4.

Hmmm...in Arizona they jacked the fee to $25 (from $6), but your license
doesn't expire until your 65th birthday...even if you're only in your 20's
now. Of course, most people are out of the state in less than five years
anyway, so it's a great cash coup.

[Jack]

Roger Halstead wrote:

> OTOH I've never been able to understand how society can ignore nearly
> 50,000 deaths a year on the highway.

Probably because, "Highway crashes claimed a total of 42,815 lives in
2002, up from 42,196 in 2001."

http://usgovinfo.about.com/cs/healthmedical/a/aacrashdeaths.htm

When they climb another 17% or so, then we "can ignore nearly 50,000
deaths a year on the highway."

Considering the amount of driving we do and the ridiculous road design
and maintenance standards coupled with politically correct but
irrational licensing entitlements in the US, the only surprise is that
the total is not closer to 100,000 than 50,000.

However, using the roads in either of our hemispheric neighbors quickly
demonstrates that it could be worse.


Jack

[Jack]

Dave Stadt wrote:

> ...only 42,000 people were killed in traffic accidents last year, a number
> unchanged since the 40s. Deaths per mile are down but 42,000 dead people is
> still a huge loss of life.

Relative to what? Irrelevant to "TFR violation", for sure.

Death rates are a misleading statistic anyway. Cars are so much safer
now, that we should be looking at the number of crashes of all types per
mile, and not just fatalities.

The cars are better, but not the drivers.


Jack