Re: OSH Disappointments

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
news:7nDRc.253451$JR4.113312@attbi_s54...
>
> 5. Where was the Confederate Air Force?
>

It no longer exists. The name was changed to Commemorative Air Force a few
years ago.

[Jay Honeck]

> > 5. Where was the Confederate Air Force?
> >
>
> It no longer exists. The name was changed to Commemorative Air Force a
few
> years ago.

Oh, I know. But I refuse to address them by their politically-correct,
fluff-name.

An interesting side-note: I've noticed that most air show announcers
continue to ignore the name change as well. At OSH the Helldiver was
consistently referred to as the "Confederate Air Force's Helldiver"...
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Ron Natalie]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message news:7nDRc.253451$JR4.113312@attbi_s54...
> 4. The Grass was Too Long. It seemed EAA hadn't cut the North 40 grass in
> at least a week, and it was easily 6 to 8 inches tall. While this is great
> for setting up a tent, it makes for green prop tips.

Much of the South 40 was unmowed (well they had harvested the hay) and they
were just one step ahead of where we were putting airplanes. Even the "ditch"
taxiway didn't get mowed until late.
>
> 5. Where was the Confederate Air Force? In years past, the CAA was a
> commanding presence in the warbirds section, with Fi Fi (the only flying
> B-29 in the world) as its centerpiece.

I wouldn't say they were ever a commanding presence. Fifi wasn't there last year
either was it? We were really lean on heavier warbird iron this year.

>
> 6. The Sunday Airshow Sucked. Way too many performers bugged out early,
> and the show was the worst I've ever seen in OSH.

Yep, EAA's persistant tinkering with what day-of-the-week the airshow starts combined
with the weather. The airboss even handled people departing the show directly from the
airshow on the Saturda and Sunday airshow. Of course, we saved all that pyro money
for the "Masters of Stupidity" show.

>
> 7. Long-Term North 40 Camper Parking? When bad weather was predicted (but,
> of course, never materialized) a whole bunch of folks departed early. This
> left huge holes in the North 40 between campers, some of which were
> in-filled by later arrivals, but not all.

Again, this is also caused by starting on Tuesday (which may be a good thing or
a bad thing). People were departing on Wednesday. We did a pretty good job
of backfilling down in Vintage.

> 8. Losing the Piggly Wiggly is a pain.

Ditto the WalMart...

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
news:2iKRc.117958$eM2.10638@attbi_s51...
>
> An interesting side-note: I've noticed that most air show announcers
> continue to ignore the name change as well. At OSH the Helldiver was
> consistently referred to as the "Confederate Air Force's Helldiver"...
>

When speaking of military aircraft and operations those announcers tend to
make many mistakes.

[john smith]

Jay Honeck wrote:
> Lest any of you think that I'm so google-eyed about Oshkosh that I can't
> find anything to bitch about, here are a few nits I'd like to pick:
>
> 1. No Glacier Girl. Again, Glacier Girl (the P-38 so many of us OSH-goers
> contributed money to recover and restore) was a no-show. (Although there
> WAS a real ME-109 at the show -- a first!) Ungrateful *******s.

Someone has to pay the $100k insurance for the week. Plus, only one
person is approved by the insurers to fly it. If he isn't available, the
airplane has to sit.

> 3. EAA Clothing Sucks. Most years EAA does a commendable job creating
> slick and colorful souvenir shirts. This year the colors were weird, the
> materials felt cheap, and the prices remained high. For the first time,
> ever, I left OSH without a couple of show golf shirts.

Hey, top of the line Chinese knockoffs provide the most profit.

> 5. Where was the Confederate Air Force? In years past, the CAA was a
> commanding presence in the warbirds section, with Fi Fi (the only flying
> B-29 in the world) as its centerpiece. For at least the fifth year in a
> row, the CAA was a virtual no-show, with only a few token planes. (The very
> cool and rare Helldiver being a notable exception this year.) Where's the
> heavy metal?

Haven't they suffered some losses in the past year? Their insurance may
have gone up and the sponsorship may not have been available. I know
when they have come to Columbus OH in the past, the local group has
worked their butts off to come up with the sponsorship money to pay for
fuel.

> 7. Long-Term North 40 Camper Parking? When bad weather was predicted (but,
> of course, never materialized) a whole bunch of folks departed early. This
> left huge holes in the North 40 between campers, some of which were
> in-filled by later arrivals, but not all.
> It would be cool if there was a way for EAA to park long-term campers
> together in the North 40. Perhaps instead of simply putting "GAC" in the
> window, we could display "7-Day GAC" -- which would signal the EAA flagmen
> to direct us to the front rows? This would make late-week "in-filling"
> much easier, too.

And how many people will just put a sign "7-day GAC" in the windscreen
just to get a close camping spot so they don't have to walk?

> 8. Losing the Piggly Wiggly is a pain. The Pick N Save store is great, but
> it's just a bit too far away. One good thing, though, is that a shopping
> cart system evolved over the week, whereby folks would push their shopping
> cart all the way back to the North 40 and abandon it near the gate. Then,
> others heading over to Pick N Save would wheel the cart back, and the cycle
> would continue. At first we all looked like a bunch of street people,
> pushing stolen shopping carts around Oshkosh -- but the system worked, and
> Pick N Save didn't seem to mind. (Unlike the ghetto, all the shopping carts
> were returned in the end!)

Pick & Save was no farther than Piggly Wiggly was. I walked to it every
day for evening meals and ice. I think they have a better selection than
Piggly Wiggly did. (Although they did not have lobster, sorry Margie.)
WalMart was a loss, but Target has done a good job of filling the niche
with low priced goods competitive with WalMart prices.

[Jay Honeck]

> Pick & Save was no farther than Piggly Wiggly was.

It sure was from my campsite!

Your mileage may vary -- literally.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[gatt]

"Ron Natalie" > wrote in message news:411770df$0$2426

> I wouldn't say they were ever a commanding presence. Fifi wasn't there
last year
> either was it? We were really lean on heavier warbird iron this year.

Is that happening everywhere (except at warbird shows?) The last Rose
Festival Airshow I (will probably ever) attended was disgusting. The view
of the airshow was blocked by inflatable beer cans, SUVs and corporate
logos. They had three WWI airplanes and a
P-38 but you couldn't see them because although they were open to the
public, they were surrounded by opague plastic barricades without any
marking to let the public know they were there.

The warbirds got such a short time to fly and were brought in to land with
such a short interval that one (a Yak,IIRC) slammed on the brakes and blew a
tire, and another nearly ground-looped trying to avoid that one. But that
truck-eating, fire-breathing dinosaur thing sure got plenty of time! And
you couldn't walk around the warbirds at all except for the '38.

That and $5 ATM fees. But, I got to meet Bob Hoover so it wasn't a complete
loss.

-c

[gatt]

"john smith" > wrote in message news:NdMRc.7538

> Someone has to pay the $100k insurance for the week. Plus, only one
> person is approved by the insurers to fly it. If he isn't available, the
> airplane has to sit.

"Hey, man. We really need you to fly the P-38 at OSHKOSH! Can ya make it?"
"Naw...I'm going camping with some buddies and I gotta mow the lawn."

:>

-c

[john smith]

Jay Honeck wrote:
>>Pick & Save was no farther than Piggly Wiggly was.

> It sure was from my campsite!
> Your mileage may vary -- literally.


You were no farther/further (?) from the Pick&Save this year than you
were from the Piggly Wiggly last year.
I parked in the exact same place this year as last year. The only
difference was, I couldn't hop on a bus.

[David Johnson]

> Pick & Save was no farther than Piggly Wiggly was. I walked to it every
> day for evening meals and ice. I think they have a better selection than
> Piggly Wiggly did. (Although they did not have lobster, sorry Margie.)
> WalMart was a loss, but Target has done a good job of filling the niche
> with low priced goods competitive with WalMart prices.

Not a disappointment, but for future reference -

Across the parking lot from Pic& Save you will find China Buffet. The
quality
is decent, selection phenomenal, price reasonable, and, of course you
can pig out if you want. My wife dragged us back for a second
visit(she is partial to Chinese food).

I'd agree about Target. Their stores are much better than they were,
say,
ten years ago.

David Johnson

[Jim Weir]

We did late lunch/early dinner at China Buffet. It is OUTSTANDING imho.
Possibly the best Chinese food I've had outside of SFO Chinatown.

Jim



->Across the parking lot from Pic& Save you will find China Buffet. The
->quality
->is decent, selection phenomenal, price reasonable, and, of course you
->can pig out if you want. My wife dragged us back for a second
->visit(she is partial to Chinese food).



Jim Weir (A&P/IA, CFI, & other good alphabet soup)
VP Eng RST Pres. Cyberchapter EAA Tech. Counselor
http://www.rst-engr.com

[MLenoch]

> "gatt"

wrote:>"Hey, man. We really need you to fly the P-38 at OSHKOSH! Can ya make
it?"
>"Naw...I'm going camping with some buddies and I gotta mow the lawn."


The only pilot flying Glacier Girl is Steve Hinton, who was hired to fly an
airshow in HIS P-38 at another location.
VL

[Thomas Borchert]

Jay,

> But I refuse to address them by their politically-correct,
> fluff-name.
>

Yes. But then, you're white, too. Oops, make that "Caucasian".

"Confederate" cost them sponsors - it's as simple as that.

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

[Bob Noel]

In article >, Bob Fry
> wrote:

> Perhaps if you had lived on the wrong end of
> racism you'd understand better.

so-called Caucasians never experience racism?

--
Bob Noel
Seen on Kerry's campaign airplane: "the real deal"
oh yeah baby.

[Jay Honeck]

> Yes. But then, you're white, too. Oops, make that "Caucasian".

You obviously haven't read much American history. You might read up on the
persecution German immigrants suffered in this country.

But I suppose you haven't heard much about this -- know why? Cuz Germans
aren't whiners. They got educations, worked hard, and moved on.

But my grandparents told me some of the stories.

But all that is beside the point. "Confederate Air Force" was a joke,
because everyone (well, anyone that understood American history) knew that
there WERE no "air forces" during the American Civil War.

Everyone heard the name, chuckled, and moved on to the next plane.

Until the whiners took over...
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Ron Natalie]

"Thomas Borchert" > wrote in message ...

>
> "Confederate" cost them sponsors - it's as simple as that.
>
They can call it what they want. It was changed by their membership.

I still thought the CAF blood chits (revive him with mint juleps and hide him from
the yankees) were rather humorous.

[Thomas Borchert]

Jay,

> "Confederate Air Force" was a joke,
>

Again, according to the CAF, it was a joke some potential sponsor
didn't find very funny.

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
news:7nDRc.253451$JR4.113312@attbi_s54...
>
> Lest any of you think that I'm so google-eyed about Oshkosh that I can't
> find anything to bitch about, here are a few nits I'd like to pick:
>
> 1. No Glacier Girl. Again, Glacier Girl (the P-38 so many of us OSH-goers
> contributed money to recover and restore) was a no-show. (Although there
> WAS a real ME-109 at the show -- a first!) Ungrateful *******s.
>

A real ME-109 at the show? I don't think so. Photos of a Hispano Ha-1112
Buchon in German markings have been posted on
alt.binaries.pictures.aviation, I think you're referring to that airplane.
The Hispano Ha-1112 was built in Spain under license from Messerschmitt.
They were initially powered by Hispano-Suiza engines, later by Rolls Royce
Merlins.

If you want to be a real stickler for accuracy, there were no Me-109s at
all. The correct designation was Bf 109, Bf stood for Bayerische
Flugzeugwerke. In 1938 the company was renamed Messerschmitt and later
aircraft designs used Me, but the earlier designs were not redesignated.

[MLenoch]

>Photos of a Hispano Ha-1112
>Buchon in German markings have been posted on
>alt.binaries.pictures.aviation,

That is what was @ OSH 04.

[Thomas Borchert]

Bob,

Well put.

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

[Jay Honeck]

> A real ME-109 at the show? I don't think so.
> The Hispano Ha-1112 was built in Spain under license from Messerschmitt.
> They were initially powered by Hispano-Suiza engines, later by Rolls Royce
> Merlins.

Although technically correct, it's kind of like pointing out that the
Corsairs on the field this year weren't built by Chance-Vought. (I believe
they were built under license by Goodyear.)

Does that make them non-Corsairs?

Whatever, the plane was very, VERY cool. It just oozed evil, kinda like
the last scene in "Raiders of the Lost Ark" where the box containing the Ark
burns the swastika off from within...
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Jay Honeck]

> But maybe blacks in America weren't allowed to move on. Maybe after
> centuries of slavery and violent discrimination they couldn't.

I know a few African-American University of Iowa professors and employees
who would kick your ass for saying that. Over a beer (after they've dusted
you off) they would tell you all day long that success in this country is
open to ALL, only requiring an education and hard work.

Or are you implying otherwise?

> Can you possibly consider the idea that the african experience with
> discrimination was far worse than white immigrants, and maybe now most
> of the country, including lots of whites, are uncomfortable to a small
> or large degree with anything associated with the word "confederate"?

To be uncomfortable over a cute joke about an event that occurred over 140
years ago says a lot more about the people who are upset than it does about
those of us who think the whole controversy is silly.

But the job is done. And the beat goes on.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Thomas Borchert]

Jay,

> Over a beer (after they've dusted
> you off) they would tell you all day long that success in this country is
> open to ALL, only requiring an education and hard work.
>

Well, I'd hope for them that they'd be drunk senseless before they said
anything remotely as stupid as that.

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

[Tom]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message news:<7nDRc.253451$JR4.113312@attbi_s54>...
> Lest any of you think that I'm so google-eyed about Oshkosh that I can't
> find anything to bitch about, here are a few nits I'd like to pick:
>

This is the year that tore it for me. After we had the tent set, up a
jet was brought in and parked with both engines pointing towards us.
In retrospect, I should have either left or raised a record amount of
hell. When another jet was brought in behind us I flagged down one of
the scooter guys and asked him what the procedure would be for getting
them out safely. My hope was that they would force him to get a tow.
Certainly when I camped at Fond du Lac last year there was no problem
getting one. (I got a tow for my lowly Archer because I didn't want
to blow down the tents behind me.) The scooter guy laughed at me and
said we'd "probably get our asses blown all over creation". I hadn't
ever been close enough to a turbine to be 100% sure that my concerns
were even warranted. One afternoon as I returned to camp with my two
sons we saw that the jet was leaving. I had both boys run to safety
while I went to the tent to see what I could do. As he tried to taxi
away it became clear that the tent was going to break free and go into
the Cessna behind me. In a moment of incredible stupidity I decided
to try to hold it down. I think that if I weighed five lbs. less I
would have seen what it was like to fly like Superman. Finally his
wheels broke free and he turned to the right, ripping my rain fly down
a seam. The Baron owner between the jet and me found tent stakes six
feet from the remains of his tent. I'm not sure that I wouldn't have
been impaled by one of them if he'd had to use any more thrust.

I don't know what kind of flames this post may draw but I certainly
accept that I could have done more to avoid the problem and that
trying to save the tent and the Cessna was waaaay stupid. But I can
only change my own behavior, I don't have the influence or the energy
to teach basic safety to the EAA. They have lost a member and if I
ever attend another show I will fly in to Fond du Lac and take the
bus.

YMMV. Use the information or ignore it, your choice. It's incredible
that any organization can put on an event of this size with volunteer
labor. I applaud them for the good work that they do. But 2004 was
the end of the line for me. I won't knowingly put my aircraft in a
position like this again, let alone my family.

Tom

[Jay Honeck]

> > Over a beer (after they've dusted
> > you off) they would tell you all day long that success in this country
is
> > open to ALL, only requiring an education and hard work.
> >
>
> Well, I'd hope for them that they'd be drunk senseless before they said
> anything remotely as stupid as that.

Wow -- what a blatantly prejudicial, inflammatory statement!

A new record -- even for usenet.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Jay Honeck]

> This is the year that tore it for me. After we had the tent set, up a
> jet was brought in and parked with both engines pointing towards us.

<big snip>

Man, that's terrible. I don't blame you for being upset to the point of
quitting EAA.

I saw a couple of jets parked in the North 40 (was that where this took
place?), and marveled at the stupidity of parking them there. I, too,
assumed they would get a tow, at least into the open row between the tents,
before starting.

I also wondered how those turbines would handle the inevitable FOD that
comes from parking in the grass. My wing step had OSH grass wrapped around
it when we landed in Iowa City...

I would hope that in the future the EAA volunteers send these jet-jockeys
over to the Basler ramp, where they rightfully belong.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Martin X. Moleski, SJ]

On 11 Aug 2004 10:08:33 -0700, (Tom) wrote:

> ... The scooter guy laughed at me and
>said we'd "probably get our asses blown all over creation". ...

The day that I rode scooters for Vintage, our briefer said that planes
should be pushed out into the taxiway before startup precisely to
avoid doing any damage to tents.

Dunno why your scooter guy or your jet jockey was so cavalier
about the tents and planes behind the aircraft. It certainly isn't
EAA policy.

> ... They have lost a member ...

You oughta write them directly. I doubt that anyone in the
hierarchy is following this group.

Marty

[Steve F.]

Yes, as a blonde haired blue eyed American, I've experienced racism
while living in Germany. Though I spoke good German, my accent
betrayed the fact that was an "auslander" and when calling for
apartments for rent I was either told the apartment was "already gone"
or more simply "sorry, we don't rent to foreigners/Americans et al".

In addition to the Confederate issue, it is important for us to
consider that slavery persisted much much much longer under the
"American" flag than it ever did under the "Confederate" flag.
Remember, Liconln didn't "free" the slaves until almost TWO YEARS
into the civil war. If the war were truly about slavery, then all
northerners of good conscience would have insisted that freeing the
slaves should have been the first order of business. No? History shows
us that ,instead capturing ports and cotton stocks were!

It's not only a disappointment of the CAF's appearance at OSH, it's
the cow-towing to people who seek to wash away their collective guilt
by changing the name of a group of some of the finest planes in the
world....that's depressing. :-(


Bob Fry > wrote in message >...
> "Jay Honeck" > writes:
>
> > But I suppose you haven't heard much about this -- know why? Cuz Germans
> > aren't whiners. They got educations, worked hard, and moved on.
>
> Irish were discriminated against too, as well as Poles, Chinese,
> Hispanic, and probably every other immigrant group.
>
> But maybe blacks in America weren't allowed to move on. Maybe after
> centuries of slavery and violent discrimination they couldn't.
>
> Frankly, Jay, attitudes like the above make it hard to move on. People
> with genuine differences of opinion are implicitly criticized as not
> being educated, not working hard, not able to move on, not having a
> brain stem. There's no shades or subtlety allowed: someone is either
> with you or against you. Hmm...where else have we heard that?
>
> Can you possibly consider the idea that the african experience with
> discrimination was far worse than white immigrants, and maybe now most
> of the country, including lots of whites, are uncomfortable to a small
> or large degree with anything associated with the word "confederate"?
> So as others posted, a large majority of the membership of the CAF
> voted to change the name: more accurate, less offensive.
>
> Why not respect at least the membership and call it what they want to?

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Steve F." > wrote in message
om...
>
> In addition to the Confederate issue, it is important for us to
> consider that slavery persisted much much much longer under the
> "American" flag than it ever did under the "Confederate" flag.
>

And much much much much much much longer under the "British" flag than under
the "American" flag.

[Thomas Borchert]

Jay,

Come on. I mean no disrespect to your professors, and I doubt you have
"cleared" that quasi-quotation with them, but
"...success open to all, requiring only education and hard work" - even
you know that's utter BS. There's simply no debate, at all.

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Thomas Borchert" > wrote in message
...
>
> Come on. I mean no disrespect to your professors, and I doubt you have
> "cleared" that quasi-quotation with them, but
> "...success open to all, requiring only education and hard work" - even
> you know that's utter BS. There's simply no debate, at all.
>

Why is that utter BS?

[Thomas Borchert]

Steven,

> Why is that utter BS?
>

Because it simply isn't true - and even without having the faintest
idea of where you live (in the US or elsewhere), I can safely say that
one thorough look around at your fellow humans will provide ample proof
of that.

Really, I'm willing to discuss a lot of stuff on the Usenet, but to
even try and debate that statement makes no sense.

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

[Corky Scott]

On Wed, 11 Aug 2004 15:57:43 GMT, "Jay Honeck"
> wrote:

>> A real ME-109 at the show? I don't think so.
>> The Hispano Ha-1112 was built in Spain under license from Messerschmitt.
>> They were initially powered by Hispano-Suiza engines, later by Rolls Royce
>> Merlins.
>
>Although technically correct, it's kind of like pointing out that the
>Corsairs on the field this year weren't built by Chance-Vought. (I believe
>they were built under license by Goodyear.)
>
>Does that make them non-Corsairs?
>
>Whatever, the plane was very, VERY cool. It just oozed evil, kinda like
>the last scene in "Raiders of the Lost Ark" where the box containing the Ark
>burns the swastika off from within...
>--
>Jay Honeck

Jay, you are technically incorrect here. ;-)

The Ha 1112 has a different engine, different prop, different profile,
different performance, handles differently and sounds different from
the Bf series. Other than similarities in the wing and fuselage, it's
an entirely different airplane from any of the German 109 series
Messerschmitts.

The Goodyear built Corsair on the other hand was a license built F4U.
It's exactly like Honda sending parts for the Accord to the U.S. and
having it assembled here. Same car in every way except that it was
assembled here rather than in Japan.

Corky Scott

[G.R. Patterson III]

"Steve F." wrote:
>
> Remember, Liconln didn't "free" the slaves until almost TWO YEARS
> into the civil war. If the war were truly about slavery, then all
> northerners of good conscience would have insisted that freeing the
> slaves should have been the first order of business.

Actually, he didn't free all of the slaves and freed very few at the time of his
proclamation. The emancipation proclamation freed only slaves in conquered
Confederate territory, and most of the South remained unconquered until the last year
of the war. There was at least one slave State that did not secede, and slavery
remained law in those areas until the Constitution was amended to forbid it.

As for "good conscience", there was near revolt in many units of the Union Army when
that proclamation was made. The vast majority of the troops had joined to
preserve/restore the union and had little sympathy for abolition.

George Patterson
If you want to know God's opinion of money, just look at the people
he gives it to.

[Jay Honeck]

> Really, I'm willing to discuss a lot of stuff on the Usenet, but to
> even try and debate that statement makes no sense.

Wow. That is an amazing statement. Do you really believe this?

I've met so many hundreds (thousands?) of men and women who have succeeded
SOLELY because of their hard work and education, that it's hard to imagine
any other economic system. For example, I'm no Bill Gates, but I started
with nothing but an education and a good, old-fashioned German-American work
ethic, and yet I have achieved everything I've set out to do. (Well,
almost. I still want to be Mike Rappaport when I grow up! :-)

Attend a few chamber of commerce meetings in any town in America, and you'll
meet thousands and thousands of people with the same story. All you need to
succeed (in this country, anyway) is a good education and hard work.
Everything else will follow, in time.

It must be awful to live somewhere where you can't succeed solely on the
basis of merit. Must be why dozens of people literally die every day,
trying to come to America?
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Jay Honeck]

> Jay, you are technically incorrect here. ;-)

*sigh*

Okay.

Suffice it to say that it was a really, really cool Spanish plane, that just
happened to look like every kid's drawing of a Messerschmitt BF (not ME)
109.

;-)

Sadly, we never saw it fly.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Thomas Borchert]

Jay,

Sorry, but, as I said, there's no point in this. If that's your view of
the US, it is IMHO quite narrow indeed. It makes me very sad and angry
to read postings like yours. But to each his own.

Let's just agree to disagree and quarrel about headsets instead.

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

[Jay Honeck]

> If that's your view of
> the US, it is IMHO quite narrow indeed. It makes me very sad and angry
> to read postings like yours.

Your position is strangely illogical, in the face of overwhelming evidence
to the contrary.

But this is Usenet; believe what you will.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Dylan Smith]

In article <5YLSc.291646$Oq2.285942@attbi_s52>, Jay Honeck wrote:
> any other economic system. For example, I'm no Bill Gates, but I started
> with nothing but an education and a good, old-fashioned German-American work

One thing to remember about Bill Gates was that he was essentially a
multimillionaire when he was born. If you've got that much money to
start out with, it's easy to take risks. If Bill Gates lost 500K on his
first business venture, it may be annoying but it's not life
threatening. If most people lost 500K on their first business venture,
they've probably lost everything - including their home. So they can't
take those kinds of risks very easily (although some do).

--
Dylan Smith, Castletown, Isle of Man
Flying: http://www.dylansmith.net
Frontier Elite Universe: http://www.alioth.net
"Maintain thine airspeed, lest the ground come up and smite thee"

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Thomas Borchert" > wrote in message
...
> Steven,
>
> > Why is that utter BS?
> >
>
> Because it simply isn't true - and even without having the faintest
> idea of where you live (in the US or elsewhere), I can safely say that
> one thorough look around at your fellow humans will provide ample proof
> of that.
>
> Really, I'm willing to discuss a lot of stuff on the Usenet, but to
> even try and debate that statement makes no sense.
>

It is true in the US. You're simply misinformed.

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Thomas Borchert" > wrote in message
...
> Jay,
>
> Sorry, but, as I said, there's no point in this. If that's your view of
> the US, it is IMHO quite narrow indeed. It makes me very sad and angry
> to read postings like yours. But to each his own.
>
> Let's just agree to disagree and quarrel about headsets instead.
>

You don't understand. You're saying things that many Americans have seen
and experienced don't happen. You're just flat out wrong about this.
Declaring yourself to be correct does not make it so.

[Tom]

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Jay Honeck wrote:

<snip>

> I saw a couple of jets parked in the North 40 (was that where this took
> place?), and marveled at the stupidity of parking them there. I, too,
> assumed they would get a tow, at least into the open row between the tents,
> before starting.

Yes, it was not far from the Hilton:
http://www.geocities.com/xtjm/OSH2004_Camp.jpg

The other jet that I saw stayed longer than his neighbors so I don't
think he was a problem for anyone. By Monday that whole area had just
about emptied out.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Martin X. Moleski, SJ wrote:
<snip>
>
> You oughta write them directly. I doubt that anyone in the
> hierarchy is following this group.

You're right. It's not impossible that someone will listen to my
complaint and keep this from happening to someone else. I did make an
effort to do it at the show but no joy. I will make one more effort
to contact them via email but after that I just want my membership
canceled.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Thomas Borchert wrote:
> Tom,

> You probably should have run up in front of the jet and threatened to
> throw one of the tent stakes into the turbine inlet. That would have
> made the pilot pay attention. In all seriousness: Did you get the tail
> number? Make him pay for the damage! Report him to the EAA. Those
> pilots, prop or jet, deserve the worst.

OK, you and I should probably agree never to go out in public together
unless arrangements for bail have been made. <g> At the time, a
grenade through the door wouldn't have seemed out of line but the
grenades were locked in the baggage compartment. <gggg> Honestly,
yeah, I got his tail number. But I'm wondering if the cost of a rain
fly would really sting someone with a Citation? My half-assed repairs
even kept us reasonably dry during the storm that followed - I
wouldn't even award me damages. What really amazes me is that someone
with that kind of money wouldn't be more careful about getting himself
sued. I still don't know much about jets but that blast sure felt
dangerous. Never again......

Tom

[Dave Stadt]

"My point of view" > wrote in message
...
> > Jay Honeck > wrote:
>
> > German-American work ethic,
>
> Name one time in your life when you were ever put down, held back,
> spat upon, physically threatened, passed over, ignored, or dragged
> by a pickup truck till dead, just because of the colour of your skin.
>
> Your German anscestors probably came to your great country to avoid
> religious persecution in Germany and to better themselves because of
> the opportunities afforded white people from Europe.
>
> Your black friends anscestors came to your great country in chains
> being whipped into submission as slaves and you sir would be very hard
> pressed to equate the opportunities that you and your white generation
> have enjoyed with those of the average black person.
>
> Here is an interesting website Jay......
>
> http://www.musarium.com/withoutsanctuary/main.html
>
> Shows lots of pictures of your fellow black Americans being lynched
> by your fellow white Americans.
>
> Please show me a similar website where I can go to see pictures of
> German Americans being lynched because of the colour of their skin.
>
> Just one will do.

Get over it and get on with life. Every ethnic and religious group has been
through the same thing some time in the past. Most of us get over it and
move on. Some wallow in the past and play "woe is me" for centuries and
expect special treatment and reparations. The self pity is getting very
annoying.

[Newps]

Jay Honeck wrote:

>>If that's your view of
>>the US, it is IMHO quite narrow indeed. It makes me very sad and angry
>>to read postings like yours.
>
>
> Your position is strangely illogical, in the face of overwhelming evidence
> to the contrary.
>
> But this is Usenet; believe what you will.

This is a perfect example of political correctness. Sorry sir the right
answer is this. Anything further on this topic is not allowed.

[Newps]

My point of view wrote:

>>Jay Honeck > wrote:
>
>
>>German-American work ethic,
>
>
> Name one time in your life when you were ever put down, held back,
> spat upon, physically threatened, passed over, ignored, or dragged
> by a pickup truck till dead, just because of the colour of your skin.


Jews
Irish
American Indians
Catholics
Protestants
etc

[Jay Honeck]

> wouldn't even award me damages. What really amazes me is that someone
> with that kind of money wouldn't be more careful about getting himself
> sued.

What really amazes me is that dolts like this jet-jockey park out in the
North 40 at all -- but not because of his jet blast. I'm just stunned that
a guy who can afford to own a biz-jet would be trying to "slum it" with the
rest of us out in the North 40, which is an area reserved for grass-roots
aviation.

Say what you want, but a biz-jet ain't "grass-roots" nuthin'. To park a
Citation out there next to a Skyhawk in some lame attempt to "get back to
his roots" is pathetic and laughable. IMHO, if you want to fly a jet into
OSH, park it at Baslers.

I'm sure there are plenty of multi-millionaires in the North 40 who are
smart enough to "get" this concept, and they leave their Lears home, opting
instead to arrive in their Saratogas and Commanders. These guys intuitively
know that a biz-jet is as out of place in the North 40 as a tuxedo is at a
cookout.

Last year we made endless fun of a guy who was silly enough to park a King
Air 200 out there -- I can't imagine the abuse the guy in the jet must have
taken! And then to blow down a couple of tents? What a maroon!
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Jay Honeck]

> Here is an interesting website Jay......
>
> http://www.musarium.com/withoutsanctuary/main.html
>
> Please show me a similar website where I can go to see pictures of
> German Americans being lynched because of the colour of their skin.

You obviously didn't look at this website, or you would know that it also
shows graphic photos of WHITE people being lynched, too. (For example,
number 58 in the collection.)

Aside from that inconvenient little fact, the era depicted was three
generations ago. In the the America of today, people of all races can
succeed through education and hard work -- and do.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[MLenoch]

>"Jay Honeck"

wrote:> And then to blow down a couple of tents? What a maroon!
>--

MAROON!!!??..........What does color have to do with smartz? (I'm sure you
meant moron.)
VL

[Peter Duniho]

"MLenoch" > wrote in message
...
> wrote:> And then to blow down a couple of tents? What a maroon!
> >--
>
> MAROON!!!??..........What does color have to do with smartz? (I'm sure
you
> meant moron.)

Oh, come on. If you were just out of your teen years, I could understand.
But someone your age (which I don't actually know, but I'm sure it's
advanced enough to qualify here) should be familiar with ALL the great Bugs
Bunny quotes.

:)

Especially since you got snagged by this once already, a couple of years
ago. Or are you just yanking our collective chain?

http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&selm=3D30ADF8.4020902%40visi.com

By the way, it's spelled "smarts". ;)

[MLenoch]

>"Peter Duniho"

wrote:>By the way, it's spelled "smarts". ;)
>

Are you sure? ;-)

[Janne Blomqvist]

In article >, G.R. Patterson III wrote:
> Jay Honeck wrote:
>>
>> Suffice it to say that it was a really, really cool Spanish plane, that just
>> happened to look like every kid's drawing of a Messerschmitt BF (not ME)
>> 109.
>
> Maybe some kid would draw a Bf-109 that poorly, but the differences are dramatic to
> anyone who knows what the German plane looks like. Start with the fact that the
> exhaust stacks are at the bottom of the plane with the German engine.

Yes, as the real Bf 109 had an inverted V12 engine.

> There's also a
> 40mm cannon in the prop spinner.

Umm, no. There never was a 40 mm cannon. Early versions (Bf 109E) had
two 20 mm cannons in the wings (outside the prop arc) and two 7.9 mm
MG:s on the cowling. Later versions (Bf 109G) had a 20 mm cannon in
the spinner and two 13.1 MG:s on the cowling. Late war versions (Bf
109K) had a 30 mm cannon in the spinner and two 13.1 mm MG:s on the
cowling.

There were some other versions (and subversions marked as e.g. Bf
109E-4) as well, but those three were the main versions produced,
IIRC.

--
Janne Blomqvist

[Morgans]

"MLenoch" > wrote in message
...
> >"Jay Honeck"
>
> wrote:> And then to blow down a couple of tents? What a maroon!
> >--
>
> MAROON!!!??..........What does color have to do with smartz? (I'm sure
you
> meant moron.)
> VL

He hasn't watched enough Bugs Bunny, has he Jay? <chuckle>

The last laugh is on you, MLenoch.
--
Jim in NC


---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.736 / Virus Database: 490 - Release Date: 8/9/2004

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"MLenoch" > wrote in message
...
>
> MAROON!!!??..........What does color have to do with smartz? (I'm sure
you
> meant moron.)
>

You didn't watch enough cartoons.

[John T]

"Steven P. McNicoll" > wrote in message
ink.net
>
> You didn't watch enough cartoons.

Or at least didn't watch the good ones. :)

--
John T
http://tknowlogy.com/TknoFlyer
http://www.pocketgear.com/products_search.asp?developerid=4415
____________________

[Corky Scott]

On Thu, 12 Aug 2004 22:52:00 GMT, "Dave Stadt" >
wrote:

>Get over it and get on with life. Every ethnic and religious group has been
>through the same thing some time in the past. Most of us get over it and
>move on. Some wallow in the past and play "woe is me" for centuries and
>expect special treatment and reparations. The self pity is getting very
>annoying.

Are you black Dave?

Corky Scott

[Jay Honeck]

> MAROON!!!??..........What does color have to do with smartz? (I'm sure
you
> meant moron.)

Well, Vlado, I guess the others have beat you up enough for this one...

Better watch out, or they'll blast you with a uranium-236 space modulator
next time you fly over...

;-)
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Jim Weir]

....and the writer of Bugs spent some time in San Diego, where "maroon" was the
local misnunciation of "Marine", who were not considered the rocket scientists
of the area.

Jim





(MLenoch)
shared these priceless pearls of wisdom:

->>"Jay Honeck"
->
->wrote:> And then to blow down a couple of tents? What a maroon!
->>--
->
->MAROON!!!??..........What does color have to do with smartz? (I'm sure you
->meant moron.)
->VL

Jim Weir (A&P/IA, CFI, & other good alphabet soup)
VP Eng RST Pres. Cyberchapter EAA Tech. Counselor
http://www.rst-engr.com

[Ron Natalie]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message news:hFWSc.139109$eM2.71521@attbi_s51...

> What really amazes me is that dolts like this jet-jockey park out in the
> North 40 at all -- but not because of his jet blast. I'm just stunned that
> a guy who can afford to own a biz-jet would be trying to "slum it" with the
> rest of us out in the North 40, which is an area reserved for grass-roots
> aviation.

Because the real grass-roots stuff is in the Showplane area. The north 40
is for the wannabees and other slummers.

[Ron Natalie]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message news:VN2Tc.281121$JR4.197909@attbi_s54...
> > MAROON!!!??..........What does color have to do with smartz? (I'm sure
> you
> > meant moron.)
>
> Well, Vlado, I guess the others have beat you up enough for this one...
>
> Better watch out, or they'll blast you with a uranium-236 space modulator
> next time you fly over...
>
Being disintegrated makes me very angry. Very angry indeed.

[Martin X. Moleski, SJ]

On Fri, 13 Aug 2004 10:28:57 -0400, "Ron Natalie" >
wrote:

>Because the real grass-roots stuff is in the Showplane area. ...

Ron--were you coordinating volunteers in the Vintage area this
year?

I worked 9 hours with them this year. Nice bunch of people,
nice collection of "grass-roots stuff."

Marty

[Trent Moorehead]

"Peter Duniho" > wrote in message > Oh, come
on. If you were just out of your teen years, I could understand.
> But someone your age (which I don't actually know, but I'm sure it's
> advanced enough to qualify here) should be familiar with ALL the great
Bugs
> Bunny quotes.

What a Nin Cow Poop! Gulla Bull! (I think that comes from the Bull Fighting
episode).

-Trent

[Ron Natalie]

"Martin X. Moleski, SJ" > wrote in message ...
> On Fri, 13 Aug 2004 10:28:57 -0400, "Ron Natalie" >
> wrote:
>
> >Because the real grass-roots stuff is in the Showplane area. ...
>
> Ron--were you coordinating volunteers in the Vintage area this
> year?

Me coordinate? Now way...I just park airplanes.

[Frank]

Jay Honeck wrote:

<snip>

> I know a few African-American University of Iowa professors and employees
> who would kick your ass for saying that. Over a beer (after they've
> dusted you off) they would tell you all day long that success in this
> country is open to ALL, only requiring an education and hard work.
>
> Or are you implying otherwise?

While the above is no doubt true, it doesn't tell the whole story.
Discrimination still exists. I know someone in the construction business
that wouldn't hire a black man no matter what. To him they are all just
looking to get back on welfare and besides they'd rob him blind anyway.

Want to live the American dream and buy a house? Here in Milwaukee you'd
better not be black. If you actually get a loan (less likely) you'll pay
higher rates and need more money down.

Your friends mention education as a key factor and it certainly is. But
there is certainly not equal access to education right now. It's not really
a racial issue so much as an economic one, but it affects blacks
disproportionally. Nothing perpetuates poverty better than a lack of
education.

We've come a long way but the fact that this subject keeps coming up there
is still work to be done.

<snip>
--
Frank....H

[Martin X. Moleski, SJ]

On Fri, 13 Aug 2004 15:49:53 -0400, "Ron Natalie" >
wrote:

>> Ron--were you coordinating volunteers in the Vintage area this
>> year?

>Me coordinate? Now way...I just park airplanes.

I had my first three hours on a scooter in Vintage this year--just
following and trying to learn the ropes.

But my buddies were working Flightline Security, so I moved
over with them for the next two days. Got a lot more scooter
time on the more deluxe Hondas, but didn't get to do any
parking. I helped push a plane once or twice, but that was
it.

Marty

[Trent Moorehead]

"Frank" > wrote in message ...
> We've come a long way but the fact that this subject keeps coming up there
> is still work to be done.

I agree. You are fooling yourself if you think that discrimination doesn't
really exist anymore. It's not nearly the factor that it used to be, but it
is still around unfortunately. It's quiet and insidious, like the business
owner you outlined. He's not out burning crosses, but he's practicing racism
just the same. I personally know people that are doing the same thing and it
is shameful indeed.

The way I see it, the solution to racism will not come from government
edicts. It's going to be one person, one family at a time and it is going to
take a while. Civil rights groups don't really help either because they seem
to be more self-serving than anything and seem to be more and more
irrelevent. I think most black folks just want to be left alone to do the
best that they can. They don't want handouts or pity. They want a fair
shake, just like the rest of us. Sometimes they won't get fair treatment,
sometimes they will. It will take time, like I said.

I think Bill Cosby has said some things recently that are right on the mark.
It naturally ****ed off the NAACP et al, but that only proves he was telling
the truth. He basically said that blacks are responsible for their own
success. Period. And with and education and hard work, they can truly
succeed, himself being a prime example.

I think that is what Jay is trying to say too.

-Trent
PP-ASEL

[MLenoch]

>Well, Vlado, I guess the others have beat you up enough for this one...

That's OK. I'll recover someday. Just don't let my kids know about this,
PLEASE!!!
VL

[Jay Honeck]

> I think Bill Cosby has said some things recently that are right on the
mark.
> It naturally ****ed off the NAACP et al, but that only proves he was
telling
> the truth. He basically said that blacks are responsible for their own
> success. Period. And with and education and hard work, they can truly
> succeed, himself being a prime example.

I only wish Cos had spoken out sooner, because there is a whole generation
of black males (and, to a lesser degree, black women) that have been lost in
the inner cities, either to prison or chronic unemployment. Having worked
in the inner city for seven years (in Southeastern Wisconsin), I can
personally attest to this fact.

Education and hard work is the only road to success, but there is a black
sub-culture in America that has completely turned its back on both. It's
pitiful, and truly frightening.

But that's all beside the point. Hard work and education will take you as
far as you want to go in America -- you just have to be self-motivated to do
it.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Dave Stadt]

"Corky Scott" > wrote in message
...
> On Thu, 12 Aug 2004 22:52:00 GMT, "Dave Stadt" >
> wrote:
>
> >Get over it and get on with life. Every ethnic and religious group has
been
> >through the same thing some time in the past. Most of us get over it and
> >move on. Some wallow in the past and play "woe is me" for centuries and
> >expect special treatment and reparations. The self pity is getting very
> >annoying.
>
> Are you black Dave?
>
> Corky Scott

I'm orange.

[Bob Noel]

In article <q7fTc.146734$eM2.87428@attbi_s51>, "Jay Honeck"
> wrote:

> Education and hard work is the only road to success,

Jay, there are other paths to success. Education and hard work
isn't the only road. And certainly formal education isn't
an absolute requirement. There are plenty of examples of
successful people with limited formal education.


> But that's all beside the point. Hard work and education will take you
> as
> far as you want to go in America -- you just have to be self-motivated to
> do
> it.

you also have to be realistic. There are things I would dearly love
to do, but I just don't have what it takes. No amount of hard work
or education would have gotten me into space.

--
Bob Noel
Seen on Kerry's campaign airplane: "the real deal"
oh yeah baby.

[Jay Honeck]

> you also have to be realistic. There are things I would dearly love
> to do, but I just don't have what it takes. No amount of hard work
> or education would have gotten me into space.

True -- we all peak out at some level, no matter how hard we try. It's
different for each of us. (For example, my eyesight kept me out of the Air
Force.)

But that's not prejudice or discrimination -- that's Darwin. We can only
go so far with the tools at hand.

What's that famous Clint Eastwood line? "A man's got to know his
limitations..."
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[john smith]

Steve F. wrote:
> Yes, as a blonde haired blue eyed American, I've experienced racism
> while living in Germany. Though I spoke good German, my accent
> betrayed the fact that was an "auslander" and when calling for
> apartments for rent I was either told the apartment was "already gone"
> or more simply "sorry, we don't rent to foreigners/Americans et al".

Gee, I thought it just happened to me!
The question eventually arose, "Sind Sie Ami?"
I was playing basketball for the Ludwigshafen Y team. After the ref
asked me that question, a series of fouls was called on me until I was
out of the game.

[Thomas Borchert]

John,

you and Steve need better education and you need to work harder, then
these things won't happen to you anymore. Ask Jay for the specifics.

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Thomas Borchert" > wrote in message
...
> John,
>
> you and Steve need better education and you need to work harder, then
> these things won't happen to you anymore. Ask Jay for the specifics.
>

You've indicated in your messages that you are the one lacking in education.

[Bob Noel]

In article >,
wrote:

> John,
>
> you and Steve need better education and you need to work harder, then
> these things won't happen to you anymore. Ask Jay for the specifics.

or you can just blame others.

--
Bob Noel
Seen on Kerry's campaign airplane: "the real deal"
oh yeah baby.

[Paul Sengupta]

"Steve F." > wrote in message
om...
> Yes, as a blonde haired blue eyed American, I've experienced racism
> while living in Germany. Though I spoke good German, my accent
> betrayed the fact that was an "auslander" and when calling for
> apartments for rent I was either told the apartment was "already gone"
> or more simply "sorry, we don't rent to foreigners/Americans et al".

As a half Indian British guy who doesn't speak German, I had no
problem at all renting an apartment in Germany!

:-)

Paul

[Jens Krueger]

Jay Honeck > wrote:

> It must be awful to live somewhere where you can't succeed solely on the
> basis of merit.

Try being an airline pilot. No merits, all seniority.

Cheers,
Jens

(Trying to get more on-topic)
--
I don't accept any emails right now. Usenet replys only.

[Big John]

Bob

Apparently you have never read about the early Irish. Signs like No
Irish or dogs allowed" were common place in many establishments.

Erin go bragh

Big John (mick)
`````````````````````````````````````````````````` ````````````````````````````````````

On Tue, 10 Aug 2004 11:27:37 GMT, Bob Noel
> wrote:

>In article >, Bob Fry
> wrote:
>
>> Perhaps if you had lived on the wrong end of
>> racism you'd understand better.
>
>so-called Caucasians never experience racism?

[Thomas Borchert]

Steven,

> You've indicated in your messages that you are the one lacking in education.
>

Ho Boy. What a way to end a conversation. F you too, sir.

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Thomas Borchert" > wrote in message
...
> Steven,
>
> > You've indicated in your messages that you are the one lacking in
education.
> >
>
> Ho Boy. What a way to end a conversation. F you too, sir.
>
> --
> Thomas Borchert (EDDH)
>

Thank you for proving my point.

[Big John]

I guess yhour Irish then?

Big John
`````````````````````````````````````````````````` `````````

On Sat, 14 Aug 2004 03:55:48 GMT, "Dave Stadt" >
wrote:

>
>"Corky Scott" > wrote in message
...
>> On Thu, 12 Aug 2004 22:52:00 GMT, "Dave Stadt" >
>> wrote:
>>
>> >Get over it and get on with life. Every ethnic and religious group has
>been
>> >through the same thing some time in the past. Most of us get over it and
>> >move on. Some wallow in the past and play "woe is me" for centuries and
>> >expect special treatment and reparations. The self pity is getting very
>> >annoying.
>>
>> Are you black Dave?
>>
>> Corky Scott
>
>I'm orange.
>

[[email protected]]

"Martin X. Moleski, SJ" > wrote in message >...
> On Fri, 13 Aug 2004 15:49:53 -0400, "Ron Natalie" >
> wrote:
>
> >> Ron--were you coordinating volunteers in the Vintage area this
> >> year?
>
> >Me coordinate? Now way...I just park airplanes.
>
> I had my first three hours on a scooter in Vintage this year--just
> following and trying to learn the ropes.
>
> But my buddies were working Flightline Security, so I moved
> over with them for the next two days. Got a lot more scooter
> time on the more deluxe Hondas, but didn't get to do any
> parking. I helped push a plane once or twice, but that was
> it.
>
> Marty


AirVenture is like any other airport in that there are plenty of
selfish and/or unthinking pilots around. Witness the potentially
deadly aircraft collision in the Vintage area this year. I'm sure
that Marty can confirm that the areas are just too large and the
numbers of people/airplanes too high for the relatively small number
of volunteers, be they flight line safety, security, aircraft parkers,
or anybody else, to completely prevent these types of incidents.
Shoot, I'd need many hands just to count the number of takeoffs and
landings that occurred off-runways during this year's fly-in, each one
putting volunteers at serious risk.

As in every other aspect of aviation, the final responsibility for
safe and courteous operation rests with the pilot in command.

As another example of widespread selfish behavior, look at the number
of pilots who ignore directions and park themselves so that they can
erect huge campsites before the next airplane comes along, even before
tying the airplane down (and don't get me started on how many try to
refuse to tie down). Aircraft camping has not closed in the past
several years at Oshkosh, but with the new hangar and ramp being built
on 20th St. next to the Weeks facility it's a solid bet that the
smaller North 40 will be filled at some point next year. In that
case, every oversized campsite means a camping family who gets turned
away completely. In almost every case, the attitude expressed is one
of "I got here early to have a big campsite, they should have been
here early too." I've never seen anybody who was convinced to pull
their tents closer. I also don't recall anyone who gave in on their
tiedown refusals without the threat of involving the sheriff's deputy
who patrols the area.


At an event the size of AirVenture, it takes only a small percentage
of "bad apples" to cause a great deal of grief.

[Jay Honeck]

> At an event the size of AirVenture, it takes only a small percentage
> of "bad apples" to cause a great deal of grief.

I'm glad that, in 22 years, I've never seen the dark side of Airventure.

It's sad to hear about it.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[[email protected]]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message news:<NK7Vc.1361$9d6.960@attbi_s54>...
> > At an event the size of AirVenture, it takes only a small percentage
> > of "bad apples" to cause a great deal of grief.
>
> I'm glad that, in 22 years, I've never seen the dark side of Airventure.
>
> It's sad to hear about it.


I'm going to guess that you've never volunteered.

Fly-ins would be a lot more fun for all if attendees didn't consider
it so much a show put on for their entertainment, but rather
considered themselves active participants who share in the
responsibility for success of the event. I've worked at events from
AirVenture to tiny little fly-ins held at people's homes, and across
the board it's surprising how many people are quick to complain but
slow to lift a finger correct the problem (real or perceived). On the
other hand, it's pleasantly surprising how many people will do
anything asked of them, if only they're asked.

I recommend to anyone to drop by the Volunteer Center at AirVenture,
and just try working a couple of hours in any job that sounds
interesting; they have a list of areas needing help descriptions of
the types of things you'll do. Even try something that doesn't sound
interesting - stick it out for a few hours and see how it goes. I'm
willing to bet a fresh-fried donut from the Classic Cafe that you'll
meet some interesting new friends, have fun, and have a deeper
appreciation for everything around you.

Cheers,
Garrett

[Roger Halstead]

On 19 Aug 2004 09:48:58 -0700, wrote:
<snip>
>
>As another example of widespread selfish behavior, look at the number
>of pilots who ignore directions and park themselves so that they can
>erect huge campsites before the next airplane comes along, even before

They must have changed things. Every time I've been there I've parked
the old Deb in the Antique/classic/contemporary camping area (to the
south of the out door theatre) and was always guided in. If you put
your tent too far out It would get moved as the wing tips were only a
few feet apart.

I was the computer chairman over in the Homebuilders area.

The last time I was there I had to borrow a steel bar from Cye to
crank my anchors in. I do have the screw in kind, but they are big
and really screw in. I had to borrow the bar again to unscrew them.
Course that was better than the one year it was so wet. I arrived a
week early in the rain, tied the plane down just to the West of the
Quanset hut, and two weeks later it took 4 guys the size of those big
weight lifters to move the Deb which had slowly sunk nearly to the
axels.

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com
>tying the airplane down (and don't get me started on how many try to
>refuse to tie down). Aircraft camping has not closed in the past
>several years at Oshkosh, but with the new hangar and ramp being built
>on 20th St. next to the Weeks facility it's a solid bet that the
>smaller North 40 will be filled at some point next year. In that
>case, every oversized campsite means a camping family who gets turned
>away completely. In almost every case, the attitude expressed is one
>of "I got here early to have a big campsite, they should have been
>here early too." I've never seen anybody who was convinced to pull
>their tents closer. I also don't recall anyone who gave in on their
>tiedown refusals without the threat of involving the sheriff's deputy
>who patrols the area.
>
>
>At an event the size of AirVenture, it takes only a small percentage
>of "bad apples" to cause a great deal of grief.