Handpropping _ What are the FAR's or AC's

[Brian Jennis]

I've heard people say things like - it's illegal to start
your plane by propping it by hand unless there's a licensed
pilot at the controls. Others have said it's illegal to use
the armstrong starter unless it's tied down. Does anyone
know what the applicable regulations, FAR's and Advisory
Circulars are on the subject of starting by hand?

[Bob Gardner]

There are no regulations on the subject, just recommendations. If anything
bad were to happen, "careless and reckless" would be the relevant
regulation.

Bob Gardner

"Brian Jennis" > wrote in message
...
> I've heard people say things like - it's illegal to start
> your plane by propping it by hand unless there's a licensed
> pilot at the controls. Others have said it's illegal to use
> the armstrong starter unless it's tied down. Does anyone
> know what the applicable regulations, FAR's and Advisory
> Circulars are on the subject of starting by hand?

[Robert M. Gary]

These regulations are Canadian. There are no restrictions in the U.S.
Its not reasonable to expect another pilot to be around everytime you
fly. Just be careful and never **NEVER** hand prop a plane that was
not designed to be hand proped (or anything more than around 100 hp).
I would never consider proping my Mooney.

-Robert, CFI (frequent hand proping guy).


Brian Jennis > wrote in message >...
> I've heard people say things like - it's illegal to start
> your plane by propping it by hand unless there's a licensed
> pilot at the controls. Others have said it's illegal to use
> the armstrong starter unless it's tied down. Does anyone
> know what the applicable regulations, FAR's and Advisory
> Circulars are on the subject of starting by hand?

[Cub Driver]

> If anything
>bad were to happen, "careless and reckless" would be the relevant
>regulation.

I tried to pin my CFI down on these matters, and he said: "Dan, there
are all sorts of reasons why you don't want this to become an issue."

Incidentally, the original poster (I think) said that a pilot had to
be at the controls. I was instructed that a pilot or *mechanic* had to
be.

There is a page on hand-propping at www.pipercubforum.com/handprop.htm

all the best -- Dan Ford
email: (put Cubdriver in subject line)

The Warbird's Forum www.warbirdforum.com
Expedition sailboat charters www.expeditionsail.com

[Ron Natalie]

"Cub Driver" > wrote in message ...

> Incidentally, the original poster (I think) said that a pilot had to
> be at the controls. I was instructed that a pilot or *mechanic* had to
> be.
>
As others have pointed out, there are no requirements in the regs (other than the
catchall don't be a hazard). Back when I was pre-student pilot, I helped a guy
start his taylorcraft. It takes about two minutes to explain how to work the mags
and mixture.

It's unbelievable to me that people would hand prop a plane without either someone
at the controls or the aircraft restrained. Nearly all of these accidents happen because
the throttle is a little more advanced than expected. Even if you had to leave the
controls unattended to untie the running plane, it would be safer (as you'd have the
chance to bring it back to a safer idle first).

Had a hand propping incident at OSH this year. Guy pulls his Luscombe and turns it
perpendicular to the rows. Starts it and it starts heading for the weeds (out accross the
runway cleararea and eventually into some trees). However, the pilot says, "oh no" and
attempts to grab the thing. This only suceeds in turning the aircraft now so that it is
heading through a Cessna wing, and the tent of the aircraft underneath of it. Through
shear dumb luck, the occupants of the tent escape with only cuts from pieces of their
aircraft being thrown into them.

[Corky Scott]

On Mon, 9 Aug 2004 18:28:16 -0400, "Bob Martin"
> wrote:

>That was interesting.
>
>Found out later you should never hand-prop an engine like that one
>(something to do with the mags kicking over too soon or something like
>that.)

Why would the mags kick over too soon? Aren't they preset and fixed
so that they don't kick over too soon?

Or did you mean that the preset (around 26 degrees BTDC) is too
advanced for hand propping?

Corky Scott

[Wallace Berry]

Had a hand propping where my bird got away from me and whacked into a
pole. Had the tail tied down, brakes set, and wheels chocked. I was
careless in that I didn't check the strength of the rope and since I was
in the grass the chocks needed to be larger than my usual chocks. The
throttle was, in fact, advanced a bit too far. On start up the rope
broke, the wheels slid in the grass and rode over the chocks, I grabbed
the wing and turned the plane around and eventually had to let go. It
weathervaned right around again and smacked into a pole. Luckily, no one
hurt and no major damage to other aircraft. I'm rebuilding my bird now.
This was the first time I had ever started it without someone at the
controls.

Things I should have done: I could have turned the fuel valve off after
priming the engine. The engine would have run long enough for me to turn
the fuel valve back on. I could have tied a string from the throttle
back to the tail tiedown. That would have retarted the throttle as the
plane moved forward. Lesson learned is that one should take as many
precautions as humanely possible when handpropping.

What I REALLY should have done: Installed the perfectly good starter
that I had sitting in my shop.


In article >,
"Ron Natalie" > wrote:

> "Cub Driver" > wrote in message
> ...
>
> > Incidentally, the original poster (I think) said that a pilot had to
> > be at the controls. I was instructed that a pilot or *mechanic* had to
> > be.
> >
> As others have pointed out, there are no requirements in the regs (other than
> the
> catchall don't be a hazard). Back when I was pre-student pilot, I helped a
> guy
> start his taylorcraft. It takes about two minutes to explain how to work
> the mags
> and mixture.
>
> It's unbelievable to me that people would hand prop a plane without either
> someone
> at the controls or the aircraft restrained. Nearly all of these accidents
> happen because
> the throttle is a little more advanced than expected. Even if you had to
> leave the
> controls unattended to untie the running plane, it would be safer (as you'd
> have the
> chance to bring it back to a safer idle first).
>

--
Take out the airplane for reply

[mike regish]

Ever see the picture of the guy at about 1000' in a Cub, standing on the
wheel and handpropping the thing?

It's a cool shot.

Fellow Tripacer owner, about 2 years ago now, got his hand pretty well F'd
up handpropping a Continental O-290 in an experimental. Didn't get out of
the way fast enough. Never wrap your fingers around the blade. Use your
palms only with just enough fingertip and pull so that you are always moving
away from the prop arc.

Back when I had my ultralight (around '81, '82) an old timer had his Corbin
Baby Ace tied to an engine hoist when it got away from him. It made it
almost to the runway (perpendicular). I think it was the right wing that
caught the end of the wing of a Cessna and that flipped it over.

Almost bought that plane after.

On the mags thing, is it the impulse coupling on some engines' mags that
could ruin your day? Get to a certain point and the impulse coupling fires
off a spark before the piston's TDC and you get whacked in the back of the
fingers with what sould have been the following blade.

mike regish

"Newps" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> Cub Driver wrote:
>
>
> >
> > Incidentally, the original poster (I think) said that a pilot had to
> > be at the controls. I was instructed that a pilot or *mechanic* had to
> > be.
>
> So J3's are two pilot airplanes? This comes up frequently and the real
> answer is you don't legally need anybody to hand prop a plane.
>

[Cub Driver]

On 10 Aug 2004 11:11:24 -0500, Todd Pattist
> wrote:

>>It's unbelievable to me that people would hand prop a plane without either someone
>>at the controls or the aircraft restrained.
>
>I agree, but I think the question was whether the person at
>the controls has to have a pilot certificate, or can it be
>someone who has received the "two minutes" and can safely
>handle the start until the pilot gets in.

If you fly a Piper Cub, you will sooner or later (probably sooner)
find yourself in a position where you either prop the engine without
someone at the controls, or you take up residence in another
community. Not many airports will have someone available to help with
this project.

Tying down the tail sounds great, but have you ever walked from the
tail to the door with the motor running? It's miles and miles, and you
never felt so vulnerable!

all the best -- Dan Ford
email: (put Cubdriver in subject line)

The Warbird's Forum www.warbirdforum.com
Expedition sailboat charters www.expeditionsail.com

[Cub Driver]

On Tue, 10 Aug 2004 10:29:32 -0600, Newps > wrote:

>> Incidentally, the original poster (I think) said that a pilot had to
>> be at the controls. I was instructed that a pilot or *mechanic* had to
>> be.
>
>So J3's are two pilot airplanes? This comes up frequently and the real
>answer is you don't legally need anybody to hand prop a plane.

As posted, the question is what happens to the pilot whose plane gets
away from him. Absent a qualified individual at the controls, he
likely will be found to have been careless, reckless, whatever it
takes to pull his certificate for a while.

all the best -- Dan Ford
email: (put Cubdriver in subject line)

The Warbird's Forum www.warbirdforum.com
Expedition sailboat charters www.expeditionsail.com

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Cub Driver" > wrote in message
...
>
> If you fly a Piper Cub, you will sooner or later (probably sooner)
> find yourself in a position where you either prop the engine without
> someone at the controls, or you take up residence in another
> community. Not many airports will have someone available to help with
> this project.
>
> Tying down the tail sounds great, but have you ever walked from the
> tail to the door with the motor running? It's miles and miles, and you
> never felt so vulnerable!
>

That's a damn poor argument for not tying down the tail.

[Cub Driver]

On Tue, 10 Aug 2004 22:13:18 GMT, "mike regish" >
wrote:

>Ever see the picture of the guy at about 1000' in a Cub, standing on the
>wheel and handpropping the thing?

www.pipercubforum.com/handprop.htm

But note that he was following the minimum urged in this thread: he
had a qualified pilot at the controls.

Ordinarily, he did this down low at air shows. He was up high only
because the guy in the other plane had to make a descending pass to
get the photo.

More than one L-4 pilot has had to get out, stand on the landing gear,
and prop his plane while slung from a wire over the side of an LST.


all the best -- Dan Ford
email: (put Cubdriver in subject line)

The Warbird's Forum www.warbirdforum.com
Expedition sailboat charters www.expeditionsail.com

[Dave Stadt]

"Cub Driver" > wrote in message
...
> On Tue, 10 Aug 2004 10:29:32 -0600, Newps > wrote:
>
> >> Incidentally, the original poster (I think) said that a pilot had to
> >> be at the controls. I was instructed that a pilot or *mechanic* had to
> >> be.
> >
> >So J3's are two pilot airplanes? This comes up frequently and the real
> >answer is you don't legally need anybody to hand prop a plane.
>
> As posted, the question is what happens to the pilot whose plane gets
> away from him. Absent a qualified individual at the controls, he
> likely will be found to have been careless, reckless, whatever it
> takes to pull his certificate for a while.

Actually what happens is the airplane gets fixed and he is off to fly again.
Most such accidents don't get reported and if they do the FAA/NTSB could
care less.

> all the best -- Dan Ford
> email: (put Cubdriver in subject line)
>
> The Warbird's Forum www.warbirdforum.com
> Expedition sailboat charters www.expeditionsail.com

[John Galban]

Bob Moore > wrote in message >...
<snip>
> I have instructed in some models of the PA-28 that had an impulse
> coupler on only one of the magnetos with a starting procedure that
> required the other magneto to remain off during start and turned on
> only after the engine is running.

That is the case with most of the PA28s I've flown. Impulse coupler
on the left mag only. On a normal start, turning the key to the
"start" position grounds the right mag, while the starter turns the
engine and lets the left mag's coupler provide the spark. When hand
propping, you have to make sure that the key is in the "left" position
in order to get a timely spark. If you try starting it on "both",
chances are good that it'll not start and it will possibly kick back
(BTDT).

<snip>
> Hand propping an O-300 Cont. powered 172 is much easier than the Lyc
> O-320 powered 172. I do it frequently just to keep my hand in it...
> (pun intended) :-)

That's where I got most of my hand propping experience. My old
O-300 powered 172 had a crummy 20 amp generator that wouldn't charge
until the engine was running better than 1200 rpm. When ever I flew
in to my class B home base at night, I had to have lights and radios
running and the taxi time was often 15 min. or more. This would
easily drain the puny battery, so I'd require a hand prop on the next
start.

My procedure was to tie down the tail, use large chocks, set the
parking brake and triple check the throttle setting before approaching
the prop. It worked pretty well for quite a few years without
incident.

John Galban=====>N4BQ (PA28-180)

[Robert M. Gary]

Cub Driver > wrote in message >...
> On 10 Aug 2004 11:11:24 -0500, Todd Pattist
> > wrote:

> If you fly a Piper Cub, you will sooner or later (probably sooner)
> find yourself in a position where you either prop the engine without
> someone at the controls, or you take up residence in another
> community. Not many airports will have someone available to help with
> this project.
>
> Tying down the tail sounds great, but have you ever walked from the
> tail to the door with the motor running? It's miles and miles, and you
> never felt so vulnerable!

Its actually not too bad. The reason to tie the plane down good is
because you can never tell how fast the engine will run when you start
it. It depends greatly on the current conditions. You tie the tail so
the plane doesn't jump the chocks after you prop it. However, once you
have started the plane you set the throttle to a nice RPM and can
untie the tail and walk back up with your hand on the plane. A few
times the Cub or Aerona has wanted to move forward on me but it can't
go far with my hand on it. Its not pulling that hard because I've set
the throttle. The dangerous time is really just before you start the
engine and don't know how strong the engine is going to come on. Also,
in both the J-3 and the 11AC and 7AC you can easily pull the door side
chock as you hop in without having to let go of the strut.

-Robert

[zatatime]

On 11 Aug 2004 13:32:51 -0700, (Robert M. Gary)
wrote:

>The dangerous time is really just before you start the
>engine and don't know how strong the engine is going to come on.

This is why I was taught to prop from behind if alone. You can
generally (J3 and 7AC at least) position yourself in such a way that a
power burst will sit you down on the strut. This gives an added
opportunity to retard the throttle when necessary. Of course without
an impulse this isn't realistic since you need to impart more energy
to the prop.

z

[Ron Natalie]

"Cub Driver" > wrote in message ...
>
> Tying down the tail sounds great, but have you ever walked from the
> tail to the door with the motor running? It's miles and miles, and you
> never felt so vulnerable!

You'd rather be in front of it?

[Newps]

Cub Driver wrote:


>
> As posted, the question is what happens to the pilot whose plane gets
> away from him.

Nothing happens. Had a guy west of here in Big Timber hand prop his
Bonanza a couple years ago. Got away from him, took off and flew a mile
or so before crashing and destroying itself. Nothing happens.

[David Johnson]

> There are no Federal regulations in the US that prohibit it. Many states and
> municipalities have ordinances that prohibit hand propping without a pilot
> at the controls. King County in Washington has such an ordinance, for
> example, and the cops have been known to write tickets to pilots hand
> propping their planes at Boeing Field.

Having a pilot at the controls is no guarantee of safety. One time I
was demonstrating an old 150 (with a very marginal generator), and
the battery wouldn't crank the engine. I decided to prop it, and had
the prospective buyer sit at the controls. We went through the "Switch
Off and Pull it Through" routine, and at about the third blade - it
started! No harm done, but I sure was startled. He had incorrectly
set the switch to the right mag rather than Off position. In spite
of this and other problems like leaky brakes, he bought the plane!
(it was moving up in the world for him, considering the ratty old
ragwing he arrived in).

David Johnson

[Cub Driver]

On 11 Aug 2004 08:28:20 -0500, Todd Pattist
> wrote:

>There's a
>quick release knot that allows you to tie the tail, and
>release it from inside the cockpit.

Tell me more!

I carry a line in my XC pack, along with chocks that I can reel in
from the cockpit. I'd like to know about this knot, for obvious
reasons.

all the best -- Dan Ford
email: (put Cubdriver in subject line)

The Warbird's Forum www.warbirdforum.com
Expedition sailboat charters www.expeditionsail.com

[Cub Driver]

On 11 Aug 2004 13:32:51 -0700, (Robert M. Gary)
wrote:

>The dangerous time is really just before you start the
>engine and don't know how strong the engine is going to come on. Also,
>in both the J-3 and the 11AC and 7AC you can easily pull the door side
>chock as you hop in without having to let go of the strut.

Right. Happily the engine is always hot, and the weather is never
frosty--I don't do XCs in the winter. The Cub I generally fly has an
alu prop and impulse starters (if that's the word), so will invariably
start on the first or (rarely) second flip.

I stand behind the prop with my left hand on the door frame and my
foot under the tire. (I would much rather the news story read: "He was
run over while trying to stop the airplane" than "He stood by
helplessly as the plane took off.")

I use two chocks with a light cord attached to them, which I loop over
the wing strut. They are offset to the inside. I've always been able
to give a little tug, then reel them in, while sitting in the rear
seat.

(At least, this is how I would do it if the occasion arose. Naturally,
I have never done this in real life, Mr. FAA Man.)


all the best -- Dan Ford
email: (put Cubdriver in subject line)

The Warbird's Forum www.warbirdforum.com
Expedition sailboat charters www.expeditionsail.com

[Cub Driver]

Thank you, Todd!

all the best -- Dan Ford
email: (put Cubdriver in subject line)

The Warbird's Forum www.warbirdforum.com
Expedition sailboat charters www.expeditionsail.com

[Robert M. Gary]

Cub Driver > wrote in message >...
> On 11 Aug 2004 13:32:51 -0700, (Robert M. Gary)
> wrote:
>
> >The dangerous time is really just before you start the
> >engine and don't know how strong the engine is going to come on. Also,
> >in both the J-3 and the 11AC and 7AC you can easily pull the door side
> >chock as you hop in without having to let go of the strut.
>
> Right. Happily the engine is always hot, and the weather is never
> frosty--I don't do XCs in the winter. The Cub I generally fly has an
> alu prop and impulse starters (if that's the word), so will invariably
> start on the first or (rarely) second flip.
>
> I stand behind the prop with my left hand on the door frame and my
> foot under the tire. (I would much rather the news story read: "He was
> run over while trying to stop the airplane" than "He stood by
> helplessly as the plane took off.")

I remember several times cruising around in the J-3 and noticing that
I didn't have my seat belt on. Jumping in the plane, getting the
handhelds set up and all while the plane is running just caused me to
forget the seat belts.
The other day I was flying the sea plane and had the same thing
happen. Its easy to forget because you don't put the seat belt on
right away because you have to be ready to jump back out if you get
pushed back to the dock. Jumping out and beaching is always fun! Its
strange to be getting out of the plane while its still moving and then
trying to jump onto the dock at just the right time. :)

-Robert

[Robert M. Gary]

Corky Scott > wrote in message >...
> On Mon, 9 Aug 2004 18:28:16 -0400, "Bob Martin"
> > wrote:
>
> >That was interesting.
> >
> >Found out later you should never hand-prop an engine like that one
> >(something to do with the mags kicking over too soon or something like
> >that.)
>
> Why would the mags kick over too soon? Aren't they preset and fixed
> so that they don't kick over too soon?
>
> Or did you mean that the preset (around 26 degrees BTDC) is too
> advanced for hand propping?

One the 11AC I flew, we had one mag timed for propping with the
impluse and the other timed normally. We would start on the one mag to
prevent kickback (although you could start on both). Once the engine
started you just turned it to "both". I suspect that that is actually
the same even on my Mooney. I think the starter kicks out one of the
mags so you actually only start on one until you release the starter.

-Robert