Taxi instructions

[Richard Russell]

Went to RDG the other day because it had been too long since I went to
a towered field and I needed the radio practice. I was directed to
fly right base to 36 and landed uneventfully. Upon landing, the tower
asked my intentions. I told them that I would like to taxi back for
take-off and departure to the south. They directed me to turn left on
Golf to 36.

Fortunately, I had printed out a taxiway diagram because I have been
confused (lost) at airports in the past. A quick look showed me that
Golf doesn't go to 36. I would have to go from Golf to Delta to Alpha
to 36, also crossing 31 along the way. With my limited experience at
these kinds of airports, I elected to contact the tower and ask if his
intention was for me to use Golf, Delta and Alpha to get to 36. This
was of particular importance to me because of the required crossing of
31. I know that a clearance to taxi to a runway also clears you to
cross any runways on the route to the assigned runway but he was not
clear from the outset what the prescribed route was. Should he have
been more clear or should I have assumed that he wanted me to take all
three taxiways because that's what you have to do to get there? I
wouldn't have bothered him except for my paranoid vision of a
potential runway incursion at 31. Thanks.

Rich Russell

[john smith]

Richard Russell wrote:
> Went to RDG the other day because it had been too long since I went to
> a towered field and I needed the radio practice. I was directed to
> fly right base to 36 and landed uneventfully. Upon landing, the tower
> asked my intentions. I told them that I would like to taxi back for
> take-off and departure to the south. They directed me to turn left on
> Golf to 36.
>
> Fortunately, I had printed out a taxiway diagram because I have been
> confused (lost) at airports in the past. A quick look showed me that
> Golf doesn't go to 36. I would have to go from Golf to Delta to Alpha
> to 36, also crossing 31 along the way. With my limited experience at
> these kinds of airports, I elected to contact the tower and ask if his
> intention was for me to use Golf, Delta and Alpha to get to 36. This
> was of particular importance to me because of the required crossing of
> 31. I know that a clearance to taxi to a runway also clears you to
> cross any runways on the route to the assigned runway but he was not
> clear from the outset what the prescribed route was. Should he have
> been more clear or should I have assumed that he wanted me to take all
> three taxiways because that's what you have to do to get there? I
> wouldn't have bothered him except for my paranoid vision of a
> potential runway incursion at 31. Thanks.

You did the right thing.
Better to ask for clarification than to misinterpret an instruction.
If they choose to lecture you, just request progressive taxi instructions.

[kontiki]

Whwnever you are unsure of a clearance you should ask for clarification.
You did the right thing.

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Richard Russell" > wrote in message
...
>
> Went to RDG the other day because it had been too long since I went to
> a towered field and I needed the radio practice. I was directed to
> fly right base to 36 and landed uneventfully. Upon landing, the tower
> asked my intentions. I told them that I would like to taxi back for
> take-off and departure to the south. They directed me to turn left on
> Golf to 36.
>
> Fortunately, I had printed out a taxiway diagram because I have been
> confused (lost) at airports in the past. A quick look showed me that
> Golf doesn't go to 36.
>

Did he tell you to "taxi to runway 36 via taxiway golf" or did he tell you
to "turn left on golf taxi to runway 36"? The first is impossible, the
second simply specifies the taxiway to exit the runway.


>
> I would have to go from Golf to Delta to Alpha
> to 36, also crossing 31 along the way.
>

Actually, you'd have to go from Golf to Delta to Bravo to Alpha, crossing
Runway 31 along the way.


>
> With my limited experience at
> these kinds of airports, I elected to contact the tower and ask if his
> intention was for me to use Golf, Delta and Alpha to get to 36. This
> was of particular importance to me because of the required crossing of
> 31. I know that a clearance to taxi to a runway also clears you to
> cross any runways on the route to the assigned runway but he was not
> clear from the outset what the prescribed route was.
>

If other aircraft or vehicles are not a factor there's no need for them to
specify a route.


>
> Should he have
> been more clear or should I have assumed that he wanted me to take all
> three taxiways because that's what you have to do to get there?
>

Well, if that's what you have to do to get there, that's what he'll expect
you to do.

[Richard Russell]

On Tue, 10 Aug 2004 13:38:21 GMT, "Steven P. McNicoll"
> wrote:

>
>"Richard Russell" > wrote in message
...
>>
>> Went to RDG the other day because it had been too long since I went to
>> a towered field and I needed the radio practice. I was directed to
>> fly right base to 36 and landed uneventfully. Upon landing, the tower
>> asked my intentions. I told them that I would like to taxi back for
>> take-off and departure to the south. They directed me to turn left on
>> Golf to 36.
>>
>> Fortunately, I had printed out a taxiway diagram because I have been
>> confused (lost) at airports in the past. A quick look showed me that
>> Golf doesn't go to 36.
>>
>
>Did he tell you to "taxi to runway 36 via taxiway golf" or did he tell you
>to "turn left on golf taxi to runway 36"? The first is impossible, the
>second simply specifies the taxiway to exit the runway.
>
>
>>
>> I would have to go from Golf to Delta to Alpha
>> to 36, also crossing 31 along the way.
>>
>
>Actually, you'd have to go from Golf to Delta to Bravo to Alpha, crossing
>Runway 31 along the way.
>
>
>>
>> With my limited experience at
>> these kinds of airports, I elected to contact the tower and ask if his
>> intention was for me to use Golf, Delta and Alpha to get to 36. This
>> was of particular importance to me because of the required crossing of
>> 31. I know that a clearance to taxi to a runway also clears you to
>> cross any runways on the route to the assigned runway but he was not
>> clear from the outset what the prescribed route was.
>>
>
>If other aircraft or vehicles are not a factor there's no need for them to
>specify a route.
>
>
>>
>> Should he have
>> been more clear or should I have assumed that he wanted me to take all
>> three taxiways because that's what you have to do to get there?
>>
>
>Well, if that's what you have to do to get there, that's what he'll expect
>you to do.
>

Sorry, I missed the Bravo part in my description. He told me to turn
left on Golf to 36, which is sort of a hybrid of the two choices that
you gave me. I assumed that he wanted to me use whatever taxiways are
necessary to get there, but I didn't want to assume myself into
trouble crossing another runway. I guess I just need to spend more
time at towered fields.

Rich Russell

[Norfolk and Chance]

"Morgans" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Richard Russell" > wrote in message
> ...
> > Went to RDG the other day because it had been too long since I went to
> > a towered field and I needed the radio practice. I was directed to
> > fly right base to 36 and landed uneventfully.
> -----Snip
> Should he have
> > been more clear or should I have assumed that he wanted me to take all
> > three taxiways because that's what you have to do to get there? I
> > wouldn't have bothered him except for my paranoid vision of a
> > potential runway incursion at 31. Thanks.
> >
> > Rich Russell
>
> It was my understanding that a "taxi to_ _ runway" gives permission to
> cross all other runways, except the runway that you have been given
> clearance to. Right, or wrong?
> --
> Jim in NC

Jim,

As I understand it yes, you are cleared to progress to the point specified
via the specified route. In fairness however the controller should have
specified a hold point where the clearance ended..

Andy

[Effie Andree Wiltens]

"Morgans" asked...
> It was my understanding that a "taxi to_ _ runway" gives permission to
> cross all other runways, except the runway that you have been given
> clearance to. Right, or wrong?

Uhm, perhaps I can venture a remark here. When I was flying at KHPN,
where multi-runway use is not uncommon, I was told that it was not
necessary to obtain crossing clearance on the way to the active runway
I was cleared for. I'm used to more stringent runway infringement
rules in other countries, I guess, and since it's no trouble to me I
always stopped short of any runway and asked for clearance to cross at
my position. It's a big busy airport, after all, and it is possible
for some light arircraft popping up from behind the trees not seeing
me in time.
Sometimes ATC was annoyed at having to deal with my "unnecessary
call", but I still think it's a good practice. Better safe than
sorry...

--FE

[Bill Denton]

While hardly as dramatic, what you are describing is the set-up for a
chain-reaction automobile accident: one car suddenly stops, the car behind
crashes into the car ahead, the car behind that crashes into the car ahead,
and so on. Anytime a vehicle in traffic makes an unexpected movement, the
probability of a collision or an impairment of traffic movement goes up
markedly.

When you are taxiing, ground control knows where your are, where you are
going, the assigned route, and roughly how fast you are moving. They know
the same things about the other ground traffic, and they take all of this in
consideration when handling traffic.

You are moving on a taxiway; there is a crossing taxiway ahead of you. There
is another aircraft in motion 1/4 mile down the crossing taxiway and ground
intends to have this aircraft cross your taxiway behind you. If you slow
down or stop it will affect the movement of the other aircraft, which may
well affect the movement of still other aircraft, and so on.

Or there may be inbound heading for the runway you are supposed to cross. If
you stop, it may force another aircraft to go around, or a following
aircraft which is not expecting you to stop may rear-end you.

What might appear, at first glance, to be a safer method may in fact be a
far more dangerous method.

Common sense would tell you to look before crossing a runway or taxiway, but
stopping when not instructed to is not at all helpful...




"Effie Andree Wiltens" > wrote in message
om...
> "Morgans" asked...
> > It was my understanding that a "taxi to_ _ runway" gives permission to
> > cross all other runways, except the runway that you have been given
> > clearance to. Right, or wrong?
>
> Uhm, perhaps I can venture a remark here. When I was flying at KHPN,
> where multi-runway use is not uncommon, I was told that it was not
> necessary to obtain crossing clearance on the way to the active runway
> I was cleared for. I'm used to more stringent runway infringement
> rules in other countries, I guess, and since it's no trouble to me I
> always stopped short of any runway and asked for clearance to cross at
> my position. It's a big busy airport, after all, and it is possible
> for some light arircraft popping up from behind the trees not seeing
> me in time.
> Sometimes ATC was annoyed at having to deal with my "unnecessary
> call", but I still think it's a good practice. Better safe than
> sorry...
>
> --FE

[Richard Russell]

On Tue, 10 Aug 2004 20:05:00 -0400, "Morgans"
> wrote:

>
>"Richard Russell" > wrote in message
...
>> Went to RDG the other day because it had been too long since I went to
>> a towered field and I needed the radio practice. I was directed to
>> fly right base to 36 and landed uneventfully.
>-----Snip
> Should he have
>> been more clear or should I have assumed that he wanted me to take all
>> three taxiways because that's what you have to do to get there? I
>> wouldn't have bothered him except for my paranoid vision of a
>> potential runway incursion at 31. Thanks.
>>
>> Rich Russell
>
>It was my understanding that a "taxi to_ _ runway" gives permission to
>cross all other runways, except the runway that you have been given
>clearance to. Right, or wrong?

That is correct. If the tower had more accurately described my taxi
route I would not have had any hesitation about crossing the
"non-active" runway on the way to 36. In fairness to the tower, they
probably recognize this as the being the best (maybe the only-I don't
have the diagram handy now) route to 36. Had I been a RDG regular,
I'm sure there would be no issue here. As it is, I'm merely a low
time pilot that flies mostly into uncontrolled, single runway fields.
The "problem" here was my comfort level, or lack thereof.
Rich Russell

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Norfolk and Chance" > wrote in message
...
>
> As I understand it yes, you are cleared to progress to the point specified
> via the specified route. In fairness however the controller should have
> specified a hold point where the clearance ended..
>

That point is whatever immediately follows the word "to" in the taxi
clearance.

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Richard Russell" > wrote in message
...
>
> That is correct. If the tower had more accurately described my taxi
> route I would not have had any hesitation about crossing the
> "non-active" runway on the way to 36.
>

In what way was their description deficient?

[C Kingsbury]

(Effie Andree Wiltens) wrote in message >...

> Uhm, perhaps I can venture a remark here. When I was flying at KHPN,
> where multi-runway use is not uncommon, I was told that it was not
> necessary to obtain crossing clearance on the way to the active runway
> I was cleared for.

Ditto at BED, which operates much like HPN.

> I'm used to more stringent runway infringement
> rules in other countries, I guess, and since it's no trouble to me I
> always stopped short of any runway and asked for clearance to cross at
> my position. It's a big busy airport, after all, and it is possible
> for some light arircraft popping up from behind the trees not seeing
> me in time.
> Sometimes ATC was annoyed at having to deal with my "unnecessary
> call", but I still think it's a good practice.

FAA rules generally err on the conservative side so it's probably
unnecessary, but I know a lot of guys who, if they have any question
at a busy field, will say, "Cessna 123 crossing runway X" as they
approach the hold short line. Personally I slow down and take a good
look whether I've been cleared or not.

Also, ground ops are often somewhat idiosyncratic to the individual
field. If I'm at all unsure I'll say, "Ground, we're not based here,
you want us to do XYZ?" and they'll usually be good about it.

-cwk.

[Peter Clark]

On Thu, 12 Aug 2004 02:56:22 GMT, "Steven P. McNicoll"
> wrote:

>
>"Peter Clark" > wrote in message
...
>>
>> If I may, if I read the original post correctly, I believe the
>> clearance is deficient in a similar way to ones at BED can sometimes
>> be deficient. If they're using runway 23, it's pretty much universal
>> for them to give taxi clearances like "Taxi via Sierra Echo Golf to
>> 23". There is no G on the 23 side of runway 29, it turns into taxiway
>> H, but I cannot recall ever hearing them say "Taxi via Juliet Echo
>> Golf Hotel to 23". It's just done that people taxi over 29 and hold
>> short of 23, unless they have a jet inbound for 29, but they'll always
>> say "Taxi via Sierra Echo Golf to 23 hold short 29" in that instance.
>>
>
>Why do you find that deficient? Once you're on taxiway Golf, how many ways
>are there to taxi to rynway 23?

There are no other ways to get to 23 from Golf. There's also no other
way (unless you're going to cross the active or taxi on runway 29 for
a bit) to get over to 23 from E, so why not just say "taxi to 23 via
Sierra Echo"? Being pedantic, I think the clearance is deficient in
that they've given me taxiway designations that get me to 29 but not
to 23 because the taxiway designator changes, similar to what I
believe happened to the original poster. I know that the 1st time I
was going to 23 at BED I got confused because I got to 29 and didn't
see a G sign on the far side of the runway. Quick glance at the
diagram I had out solved it, but still.

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Peter Clark" > wrote in message
...
> >
> >Why do you find that deficient? Once you're on taxiway Golf, how many
ways
> >are there to taxi to rynway 23?
> >
>
> There are no other ways to get to 23 from Golf.
>

Exactly!