Verifying flap retraction

[Roger Long]

One of the more experienced pilots in our club scared himself climbing out
of a touch and go during which he didn't notice that the flaps had frozen at
20 degrees on our 172.

I've been investigating the flap system on Cessna's and am impressed how
easily a bit of fluff or corrosion in just one switch can let the flaps go
down but then fail to retract.

This leaves me convinced that CFI's and all of us should be drilling in the
glance over the shoulder to verify retraction on all touch and goes and go
arounds. Practicing climb outs from minimum airspeed with all flap settings
is a very neglected part of airwork and probably as important to safety as
doing stalls.

--

Roger Long

[AJW]

>
>One of the more experienced pilots in our club scared himself climbing out
>of a touch and go during which he didn't notice that the flaps had frozen at
>20 degrees on our 172.
>
>I've been investigating the flap system on Cessna's and am impressed how
>easily a bit of fluff or corrosion in just one switch can let the flaps go
>down but then fail to retract.
>
>This leaves me convinced that CFI's and all of us should be drilling in the
>glance over the shoulder to verify retraction on all touch and goes and go
>arounds. Practicing climb outs from minimum airspeed with all flap settings
>is a very neglected part of airwork and probably as important to safety as
>doing stalls.
>
Well, exactly what would you do about it if you're flying a missed approach or
a touch and go and found your flaps had not retracted?

For what it's worth, I somehow don't find climbing out with flaps extended as
scary a prospect as having a pilot not recognize when the aircraft is close to
stall.

[Roger Long]

You should be able to recognize from the feel that the flaps have not
retracted and fly out of it. The way to be sure of doing both of these
things is to practice to learn how the plane feels and how to handle it.

Intentional touch and gos should be done with enough runway that you can put
the flap lever up, take a look, and pull power to abort if they don't move.
Aborting a landing a the last second is also a good thing to practice.

--

Roger Long



"AJW" > wrote in message
...
> >
> >One of the more experienced pilots in our club scared himself climbing
out
> >of a touch and go during which he didn't notice that the flaps had frozen
at
> >20 degrees on our 172.
> >
> >I've been investigating the flap system on Cessna's and am impressed how
> >easily a bit of fluff or corrosion in just one switch can let the flaps
go
> >down but then fail to retract.
> >
> >This leaves me convinced that CFI's and all of us should be drilling in
the
> >glance over the shoulder to verify retraction on all touch and goes and
go
> >arounds. Practicing climb outs from minimum airspeed with all flap
settings
> >is a very neglected part of airwork and probably as important to safety
as
> >doing stalls.
> >
> Well, exactly what would you do about it if you're flying a missed
approach or
> a touch and go and found your flaps had not retracted?
>
> For what it's worth, I somehow don't find climbing out with flaps extended
as
> scary a prospect as having a pilot not recognize when the aircraft is
close to
> stall.
>
>

[G.R. Patterson III]

AJW wrote:
>
> Well, exactly what would you do about it if you're flying a missed approach or
> a touch and go and found your flaps had not retracted?

I would increase my angle of attack and use the correct airspeed for the flap setting
to get the best rate of climb that I could under the circumstances. If you use the
appropriate departure airspeed for 0 degrees of flaps when you actually have 20
degrees down, the climb rate (or lack thereof) could be a problem. The longer it
takes you to realize it, the closer the trees get.

George Patterson
If you want to know God's opinion of money, just look at the people
he gives it to.

[C J Campbell]

Most of the problems that I have had on Cessna 172s have been with flaps. I
agree that pilots should verify flaps up on touch and goes.

Cessna used to have manual flaps. Why did they ever go to this flakey
electrical system in the first place?

[Roy Smith]

In article >,
"C J Campbell" > wrote:

> Most of the problems that I have had on Cessna 172s have been with flaps. I
> agree that pilots should verify flaps up on touch and goes.
>
> Cessna used to have manual flaps. Why did they ever go to this flakey
> electrical system in the first place?

I did my initial training in Cessnas, and "verify flaps retracting" was
drummed into me as part of the touch-and-go procedure.

Now I fly mostly Pipers. I really like the manual flaps instead of
Cessna's electric ones, and curse the electric trim Piper uses instead
of Cessna's manual trim system.

Simple stuff just works better.

[Dudley Henriques]

"C J Campbell" > wrote in message
...
> Most of the problems that I have had on Cessna 172s have been with
flaps. I
> agree that pilots should verify flaps up on touch and goes.
>
> Cessna used to have manual flaps. Why did they ever go to this flakey
> electrical system in the first place?

The old "Johnson bar" could be fun. You had to depress the button in
front by lifting the pressure gently off the bar. Every now and then if
you weren't careful, the damn thing could slip out of your fingers and
slam down, retracting the flaps in one hell of a hurry.
You could always tell the CFI's who had had this happen to them when a
student let the bar go on a low altitude go around. They would be the
ones with the snow white hair!!! :-)
Dudley Henriques
International Fighter Pilots Fellowship
Commercial Pilot/ CFI Retired

For personal email, please
replace the at with what goes there and
take out the Z's please!
dhenriquesZatZearthZlinkZdotZnet

[Richard Russell]

On Tue, 17 Aug 2004 07:56:53 -0700, "C J Campbell"
> wrote:

>Most of the problems that I have had on Cessna 172s have been with flaps. I
>agree that pilots should verify flaps up on touch and goes.
>
>Cessna used to have manual flaps. Why did they ever go to this flakey
>electrical system in the first place?
>
Recently, I've been flying a 1956 C172 and I like the manual flaps. I
don't miss the convenience of electric flaps at all. Plus, if the
feeble old electic system craps out I still have flap. I know you can
land without them, but my home base is a relatively short runway with
trees on each end.
Rich Russell

[Ray]

What about the little metal bar that moves up and down on the left side of
the flaps switch? When the flaps fail to retract, does the metal bar still
go all the way back up? Also, normally you can hear the motor running every
time the flaps are moving up or down. When the flaps get stuck, is there
any audible indication?

Thanks,
- Ray

"Roger Long" > wrote in message
...
> One of the more experienced pilots in our club scared himself climbing out
> of a touch and go during which he didn't notice that the flaps had frozen
at
> 20 degrees on our 172.
>
> I've been investigating the flap system on Cessna's and am impressed how
> easily a bit of fluff or corrosion in just one switch can let the flaps go
> down but then fail to retract.
>
> This leaves me convinced that CFI's and all of us should be drilling in
the
> glance over the shoulder to verify retraction on all touch and goes and go
> arounds. Practicing climb outs from minimum airspeed with all flap
settings
> is a very neglected part of airwork and probably as important to safety as
> doing stalls.
>
> --
>
> Roger Long
>
>
>
>

[Roger Long]

Yes, the little metal bar moves. I'm going to put painting it red on my
list. Still, looking at a big thing out side the plane as opposed to a
little thing down on the panel seems safer to me.

If you can train yourself to hear the noise, that's probably as good as
taking a look. It's easy to miss the absence of noise though as my friend
found out.

--

Roger Long



"Ray" > wrote in message
...
> What about the little metal bar that moves up and down on the left side of
> the flaps switch? When the flaps fail to retract, does the metal bar
still
> go all the way back up? Also, normally you can hear the motor running
every
> time the flaps are moving up or down. When the flaps get stuck, is there
> any audible indication?
>
> Thanks,
> - Ray
>
> "Roger Long" > wrote in message
> ...
> > One of the more experienced pilots in our club scared himself climbing
out
> > of a touch and go during which he didn't notice that the flaps had
frozen
> at
> > 20 degrees on our 172.
> >
> > I've been investigating the flap system on Cessna's and am impressed how
> > easily a bit of fluff or corrosion in just one switch can let the flaps
go
> > down but then fail to retract.
> >
> > This leaves me convinced that CFI's and all of us should be drilling in
> the
> > glance over the shoulder to verify retraction on all touch and goes and
go
> > arounds. Practicing climb outs from minimum airspeed with all flap
> settings
> > is a very neglected part of airwork and probably as important to safety
as
> > doing stalls.
> >
> > --
> >
> > Roger Long
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>

[Newps]

G.R. Patterson III wrote:

If you use the
> appropriate departure airspeed for 0 degrees of flaps when you actually have 20
> degrees down, the climb rate (or lack thereof) could be a problem.

In a Cessna if you try to use a zero flap airspeed with flaps 20 you
will wonder why you have to hold it on the ground to keep it from
flying. Having the flaps stuck at 20 is no emergency.



The longer it
> takes you to realize it, the closer the trees get.

In a Cessna you will shoot over those trees with no problem.

[Bill Denton]

I think the question might have been:

Does the flap position indicator move even if you have a flap motor (or
whatever) failure resulting in no movement by the flaps?




"Roger Long" > wrote in message
...
> Yes, the little metal bar moves. I'm going to put painting it red on my
> list. Still, looking at a big thing out side the plane as opposed to a
> little thing down on the panel seems safer to me.
>
> If you can train yourself to hear the noise, that's probably as good as
> taking a look. It's easy to miss the absence of noise though as my friend
> found out.
>
> --
>
> Roger Long
>
>
>
> "Ray" > wrote in message
> ...
> > What about the little metal bar that moves up and down on the left side
of
> > the flaps switch? When the flaps fail to retract, does the metal bar
> still
> > go all the way back up? Also, normally you can hear the motor running
> every
> > time the flaps are moving up or down. When the flaps get stuck, is
there
> > any audible indication?
> >
> > Thanks,
> > - Ray
> >
> > "Roger Long" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > > One of the more experienced pilots in our club scared himself climbing
> out
> > > of a touch and go during which he didn't notice that the flaps had
> frozen
> > at
> > > 20 degrees on our 172.
> > >
> > > I've been investigating the flap system on Cessna's and am impressed
how
> > > easily a bit of fluff or corrosion in just one switch can let the
flaps
> go
> > > down but then fail to retract.
> > >
> > > This leaves me convinced that CFI's and all of us should be drilling
in
> > the
> > > glance over the shoulder to verify retraction on all touch and goes
and
> go
> > > arounds. Practicing climb outs from minimum airspeed with all flap
> > settings
> > > is a very neglected part of airwork and probably as important to
safety
> as
> > > doing stalls.
> > >
> > > --
> > >
> > > Roger Long
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>

[Roger Long]

There is a second pointer on the post 1976 Cessna selectors which follows
the lever you move. It is actuated by a push pull cable attached to the
flap cables. It's hard to envision any way it could move with out the flaps
moving. The cables would need to have broken in which case all the flapping
and banging would probably alert you the fact that you had a much bigger
problem.

--

Roger Long



"Bill Denton" > wrote in message
...
> I think the question might have been:
>
> Does the flap position indicator move even if you have a flap motor (or
> whatever) failure resulting in no movement by the flaps?
>
>
>
>
> "Roger Long" > wrote in message
> ...
> > Yes, the little metal bar moves. I'm going to put painting it red on my
> > list. Still, looking at a big thing out side the plane as opposed to a
> > little thing down on the panel seems safer to me.
> >
> > If you can train yourself to hear the noise, that's probably as good as
> > taking a look. It's easy to miss the absence of noise though as my
friend
> > found out.
> >
> > --
> >
> > Roger Long
> >
> >
> >
> > "Ray" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > > What about the little metal bar that moves up and down on the left
side
> of
> > > the flaps switch? When the flaps fail to retract, does the metal bar
> > still
> > > go all the way back up? Also, normally you can hear the motor running
> > every
> > > time the flaps are moving up or down. When the flaps get stuck, is
> there
> > > any audible indication?
> > >
> > > Thanks,
> > > - Ray
> > >
> > > "Roger Long" > wrote in message
> > > ...
> > > > One of the more experienced pilots in our club scared himself
climbing
> > out
> > > > of a touch and go during which he didn't notice that the flaps had
> > frozen
> > > at
> > > > 20 degrees on our 172.
> > > >
> > > > I've been investigating the flap system on Cessna's and am impressed
> how
> > > > easily a bit of fluff or corrosion in just one switch can let the
> flaps
> > go
> > > > down but then fail to retract.
> > > >
> > > > This leaves me convinced that CFI's and all of us should be drilling
> in
> > > the
> > > > glance over the shoulder to verify retraction on all touch and goes
> and
> > go
> > > > arounds. Practicing climb outs from minimum airspeed with all flap
> > > settings
> > > > is a very neglected part of airwork and probably as important to
> safety
> > as
> > > > doing stalls.
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > >
> > > > Roger Long
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>

[Robert M. Gary]

(AJW) wrote in message >...
> >
> >One of the more experienced pilots in our club scared himself climbing out
> >of a touch and go during which he didn't notice that the flaps had frozen at
> >20 degrees on our 172.
> >
> >I've been investigating the flap system on Cessna's and am impressed how
> >easily a bit of fluff or corrosion in just one switch can let the flaps go
> >down but then fail to retract.
> >
> >This leaves me convinced that CFI's and all of us should be drilling in the
> >glance over the shoulder to verify retraction on all touch and goes and go
> >arounds. Practicing climb outs from minimum airspeed with all flap settings
> >is a very neglected part of airwork and probably as important to safety as
> >doing stalls.
> >
> Well, exactly what would you do about it if you're flying a missed approach or
> a touch and go and found your flaps had not retracted?
>
> For what it's worth, I somehow don't find climbing out with flaps extended as
> scary a prospect as having a pilot not recognize when the aircraft is close to
> stall.

The plane is certified to climb with full flaps. That's one of the
reasons Cessna changed from 40 degree to just 30 degree for the 172.

-Robert, CFI

[G.R. Patterson III]

"Robert M. Gary" wrote:
>
> The plane is certified to climb with full flaps.

Not very well and not at all at high density altitudes.

George Patterson
If you want to know God's opinion of money, just look at the people
he gives it to.

[Roger Long]

> G.R. Patterson III wrote:
>
> In a Cessna if you try to use a zero flap airspeed with flaps 20 you
> will wonder why you have to hold it on the ground to keep it from
> flying. Having the flaps stuck at 20 is no emergency.
>

Neither is having a door pop open but, look how many pilots that has killed.
Anything you are not prepared to deal with is a hazard.

Not checking retraction of flaps at 20 degrees is pretty far down the list
of dangers. However, not being in the habit of checking bumps it way up
when you use 30 or 40 in a tight spot.

--

Roger Long

[Dale]

In article >,
"Roger Long" > wrote:

> Yes, the little metal bar moves. I'm going to put painting it red on my
> list. Still, looking at a big thing out side the plane as opposed to a
> little thing down on the panel seems safer to me.

Are you sure the indicator will move if the flaps are not moving? On
the 206 that indicator is driven by a cable off the flaps and only moves
if the flaps are moving.

--
Dale L. Falk

There is nothing - absolutely nothing - half so much worth doing
as simply messing around with airplanes.

http://home.gci.net/~sncdfalk/flying.html

[Bob Chilcoat]

"Roger Long" > wrote in message
...
>
> Neither is having a door pop open but, look how many pilots that has
killed.
>
> Roger Long

I just proved that to myself today. Took off with the upper latch undone on
the Archer. Decided to go on to the next airport (five miles) and land
there to fix it. Got distracted and forgot the boost pump in the pattern.
Not a disaster, but I demonstrated to myself that a door open can be more of
a distraction than I had thought. Doh!

--
Bob (Chief Pilot, White Knuckle Airways)

I don't have to like Bush and Cheney (Or Kerry, for that matter) to love
America

[Roger Long]

One of us got this backwards:)

What I was saying is: The pointer bar is a reliable indicator that the flaps
are moving. Unless the very lightly loaded follow up cable snaps, it is
extremely unlikely that the pointer could move without the flaps moving.
The pointer is directly connected to the flap cables.

--

Roger Long



"Dale" > wrote in message
...
> In article >,
> "Roger Long" > wrote:
>
> > Yes, the little metal bar moves. I'm going to put painting it red on my
> > list. Still, looking at a big thing out side the plane as opposed to a
> > little thing down on the panel seems safer to me.
>
> Are you sure the indicator will move if the flaps are not moving? On
> the 206 that indicator is driven by a cable off the flaps and only moves
> if the flaps are moving.
>
> --
> Dale L. Falk
>
> There is nothing - absolutely nothing - half so much worth doing
> as simply messing around with airplanes.
>
> http://home.gci.net/~sncdfalk/flying.html

[BTIZ]

I've been looking over my shoulder at Cessna flaps on retract during touch
and goes for 30 yrs... when did they stop teaching "verify"

BT

"Roger Long" > wrote in message
...
> One of the more experienced pilots in our club scared himself climbing out
> of a touch and go during which he didn't notice that the flaps had frozen
at
> 20 degrees on our 172.
>
> I've been investigating the flap system on Cessna's and am impressed how
> easily a bit of fluff or corrosion in just one switch can let the flaps go
> down but then fail to retract.
>
> This leaves me convinced that CFI's and all of us should be drilling in
the
> glance over the shoulder to verify retraction on all touch and goes and go
> arounds. Practicing climb outs from minimum airspeed with all flap
settings
> is a very neglected part of airwork and probably as important to safety as
> doing stalls.
>
> --
>
> Roger Long
>
>
>
>

[Roger Long]

About 1999 according to my extremely limited survey of one student pilot.

--

Roger Long



"BTIZ" > wrote in message
news:OPwUc.101556$xk.10937@fed1read01...
> I've been looking over my shoulder at Cessna flaps on retract during touch
> and goes for 30 yrs... when did they stop teaching "verify"
>
> BT

[tom418]

"I just proved that to myself today. Took off with the upper latch undone
on the Archer. Decided to go on to the next airport (five miles) and....

You're not alone. Recently, I was reading an older issue of P&P, and they
did a pilot report on a Cherokee, shown with the upper latch undone.... :-)

"Bob Chilcoat" > wrote in message
...
> "Roger Long" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > Neither is having a door pop open but, look how many pilots that has
> killed.
> >
> > Roger Long
>
> I just proved that to myself today. Took off with the upper latch undone
on
> the Archer. Decided to go on to the next airport (five miles) and land
> there to fix it. Got distracted and forgot the boost pump in the pattern.
> Not a disaster, but I demonstrated to myself that a door open can be more
of
> a distraction than I had thought. Doh!
>
> --
> Bob (Chief Pilot, White Knuckle Airways)
>
> I don't have to like Bush and Cheney (Or Kerry, for that matter) to love
> America
>
>

[Roger Halstead]

On Tue, 17 Aug 2004 15:26:45 GMT, "Dudley Henriques"
> wrote:

>
>"C J Campbell" > wrote in message
...
>> Most of the problems that I have had on Cessna 172s have been with
>flaps. I
>> agree that pilots should verify flaps up on touch and goes.
>>
>> Cessna used to have manual flaps. Why did they ever go to this flakey
>> electrical system in the first place?
>
>The old "Johnson bar" could be fun. You had to depress the button in
>front by lifting the pressure gently off the bar. Every now and then if
>you weren't careful, the damn thing could slip out of your fingers and
>slam down, retracting the flaps in one hell of a hurry.

The old Hershey Bar winged Cherokee 180s also used the Johnson bar.
It was the only plane where I could raise the flaps and actually
shorten the landing roll. The electric ones are just too slow.

>You could always tell the CFI's who had had this happen to them when a
>student let the bar go on a low altitude go around. They would be the
>ones with the snow white hair!!! :-)

In nearly 375 hours I never dropped the bar once.
Man, when doing a short filed landing you put the bar full forward as
soon as the mains were down. It felt like the gear got a foot shorter
when that bar went forward. <:-))

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
G-III almost done except for the last 90%
www.rogerhalstead.com

>Dudley Henriques
>International Fighter Pilots Fellowship
>Commercial Pilot/ CFI Retired
>
>For personal email, please
>replace the at with what goes there and
>take out the Z's please!
>dhenriquesZatZearthZlinkZdotZnet
>

[Brian Burger]

On Tue, 17 Aug 2004, BTIZ wrote:

> I've been looking over my shoulder at Cessna flaps on retract during touch
> and goes for 30 yrs... when did they stop teaching "verify"

'They' haven't, at least as of 2002 at my (Canadian) flying club. Shoulder
check one side in flight, and when you're putting the flaps back up after
engine start, check *both* sides to make sure they're moving in synch.

Brian.

>
> BT
>
> "Roger Long" > wrote in message
> ...
> > One of the more experienced pilots in our club scared himself climbing out
> > of a touch and go during which he didn't notice that the flaps had frozen
> at
> > 20 degrees on our 172.
> >
> > I've been investigating the flap system on Cessna's and am impressed how
> > easily a bit of fluff or corrosion in just one switch can let the flaps go
> > down but then fail to retract.
> >
> > This leaves me convinced that CFI's and all of us should be drilling in
> the
> > glance over the shoulder to verify retraction on all touch and goes and go
> > arounds. Practicing climb outs from minimum airspeed with all flap
> settings
> > is a very neglected part of airwork and probably as important to safety as
> > doing stalls.
> >
> > --
> >
> > Roger Long
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>

[C J Campbell]

As long as we are at it, the Cessna POH says on go around or any takeoff
with flaps that you should "raise flaps slowly" upon reaching a safe
altitude and airspeed.

AFAIK the flap motor has only one speed.

[Casey Wilson]

"C J Campbell" > wrote in message
...
> As long as we are at it, the Cessna POH says on go around or any takeoff
> with flaps that you should "raise flaps slowly" upon reaching a safe
> altitude and airspeed.
>
> AFAIK the flap motor has only one speed.

Perhaps that means one notch at a time. I'm sure you don't need the
litany, CJ. Or were you trolling?

[Roger Halstead]

On Tue, 17 Aug 2004 11:27:26 GMT, "Roger Long" >
wrote:

>One of the more experienced pilots in our club scared himself climbing out
>of a touch and go during which he didn't notice that the flaps had frozen at
>20 degrees on our 172.

My only flap indicator, other than the feel of the airplane is looking
out the window. It has no flap indicator and the switch is up, down,
or off with up and down being momentary. There is no trim change at
all when going from no flaps to full flaps in the Deb. OTOH there is
a large trim change with a change in speed.

>
>I've been investigating the flap system on Cessna's and am impressed how
>easily a bit of fluff or corrosion in just one switch can let the flaps go
>down but then fail to retract.

Many years ago on my first solo cross country I was landing at
Cadillac MI. This was in the winter and Cadillac has snow. The
runway is like being in a canyon. You can not see over the snow or
even who is on the the taxiway.

At any rate, Goose down jacket, fleece lined leather gloves, long
snuggies, knit cap, and insulated boots were mandatory in that old
150. I was turning final and pushed the flap switch all the way down.
As I was making the turn I had to pull back more than usual to hold
altitude and the speed was increasing like crazy. I thought, "this
feels just like the flaps are retracting". I looked over my shoulder
in time to see them move flush with the ailerons. If you pushed the
flap switch all the way down and let your finger slip off that spring
loaded flap switch could snap all the way through off into the up
position. It did.

Never having come down final quite that fast I decided my pride could
wait while I went around and did a final at a normal speed. (and
caught up with the airplane)

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

>
>This leaves me convinced that CFI's and all of us should be drilling in the
>glance over the shoulder to verify retraction on all touch and goes and go
>arounds. Practicing climb outs from minimum airspeed with all flap settings
>is a very neglected part of airwork and probably as important to safety as
>doing stalls.

[BTIZ]

roger that.. and on the touch and go.. flaps up.. look over both shoulder
for movement or "verify both up".. then power up..

BT

"Brian Burger" > wrote in message
.tc.ca...
> On Tue, 17 Aug 2004, BTIZ wrote:
>
> > I've been looking over my shoulder at Cessna flaps on retract during
touch
> > and goes for 30 yrs... when did they stop teaching "verify"
>
> 'They' haven't, at least as of 2002 at my (Canadian) flying club. Shoulder
> check one side in flight, and when you're putting the flaps back up after
> engine start, check *both* sides to make sure they're moving in synch.
>
> Brian.
>
> >
> > BT
> >
> > "Roger Long" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > > One of the more experienced pilots in our club scared himself climbing
out
> > > of a touch and go during which he didn't notice that the flaps had
frozen
> > at
> > > 20 degrees on our 172.
> > >
> > > I've been investigating the flap system on Cessna's and am impressed
how
> > > easily a bit of fluff or corrosion in just one switch can let the
flaps go
> > > down but then fail to retract.
> > >
> > > This leaves me convinced that CFI's and all of us should be drilling
in
> > the
> > > glance over the shoulder to verify retraction on all touch and goes
and go
> > > arounds. Practicing climb outs from minimum airspeed with all flap
> > settings
> > > is a very neglected part of airwork and probably as important to
safety as
> > > doing stalls.
> > >
> > > --
> > >
> > > Roger Long
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >

[Newps]

Casey Wilson wrote:
> "C J Campbell" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>As long as we are at it, the Cessna POH says on go around or any takeoff
>>with flaps that you should "raise flaps slowly" upon reaching a safe
>>altitude and airspeed.
>>
>>AFAIK the flap motor has only one speed.
>
>
> Perhaps that means one notch at a time. I'm sure you don't need the
> litany, CJ. Or were you trolling?

And without the preselect type electric flaps you bump it up a little at
a time.

[C J Campbell]

"Casey Wilson" > wrote in message
...
>
> "C J Campbell" > wrote in message
> ...
> > As long as we are at it, the Cessna POH says on go around or any takeoff
> > with flaps that you should "raise flaps slowly" upon reaching a safe
> > altitude and airspeed.
> >
> > AFAIK the flap motor has only one speed.
>
> Perhaps that means one notch at a time. I'm sure you don't need the
> litany, CJ. Or were you trolling?

What? Me troll? :-)

Yes, perhaps that is what it means. However, takeoffs with more than 10
degrees of flaps are prohibited. If you go around, the expanded procedures
say to raise the flaps immediately to 10 degrees. Then, when a safe altitude
and airspeed are reached, raise the flaps the remaining 10 degrees slowly. I
am speaking here specifically of the S model, though the discussion applies
equally well to others.

[Jay Beckman]

"BTIZ" > wrote in message
news:jBzUc.105612$xk.30749@fed1read01...
> roger that.. and on the touch and go.. flaps up.. look over both shoulder
> for movement or "verify both up".. then power up..
>
> BT

Exactly what I've been taught as well.

Jay

[bangbang]

Hey, that was the primary reason why I bought a 1965 airplane - manual
flaps. Love 'em...

In article >, C J Campbell
> wrote:

> Most of the problems that I have had on Cessna 172s have been with flaps. I
> agree that pilots should verify flaps up on touch and goes.
>
> Cessna used to have manual flaps. Why did they ever go to this flakey
> electrical system in the first place?
>
>

--
David Herman
N6170T 1965 Cessna 150E
Boeing Field (BFI), Seattle, WA
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Visit the Pacific Northwest Flying Forum -
http://www.smartgroups.com/groups/pnwflying

[Dale]

In article >,
"C J Campbell" > wrote:


>
> Yes, perhaps that is what it means. However, takeoffs with more than 10
> degrees of flaps are prohibited. If you go around, the expanded procedures
> say to raise the flaps immediately to 10 degrees. Then, when a safe altitude
> and airspeed are reached, raise the flaps the remaining 10 degrees slowly. I
> am speaking here specifically of the S model, though the discussion applies
> equally well to others.


On the 180, 182, 185 and 206 20 degrees flaps are used for takeoff.

With the 172s I've flown the go around/balked landing procedure was
flaps immediately to 20 then further retraction in increments.

--
Dale L. Falk

There is nothing - absolutely nothing - half so much worth doing
as simply messing around with airplanes.

http://home.gci.net/~sncdfalk/flying.html

[Cub Driver]

On Wed, 18 Aug 2004 01:00:01 GMT, Roger Halstead
> wrote:

>The old Hershey Bar winged Cherokee 180s also used the Johnson bar.
>It was the only plane where I could raise the flaps and actually
>shorten the landing roll. The electric ones are just too slow.

I took Damien Del -- well, I took the Andover NJ "bush flying" course
last year. He taught this technique in the Aviat Husky. (Also flying
in ground effect over the corn stubble short of the threshold, then
dumping the flaps just as you reach the grass. Voila! 250-foot
landing!)

I had a bleeding knuckle after a couple hours of this.

all the best -- Dan Ford
email: (put Cubdriver in subject line)

The Warbird's Forum www.warbirdforum.com
Expedition sailboat charters www.expeditionsail.com

[Corky Scott]

On Tue, 17 Aug 2004 16:21:42 GMT, "Roger Long" >
wrote:

>Yes, the little metal bar moves. I'm going to put painting it red on my
>list. Still, looking at a big thing out side the plane as opposed to a
>little thing down on the panel seems safer to me.
>
>If you can train yourself to hear the noise, that's probably as good as
>taking a look. It's easy to miss the absence of noise though as my friend
>found out.

This wasn't taught to me, but since normal takeoff in a Cessna 172 is
with flaps up, I thought it would be a good idea to verify that the
flaps were in fact up before powering up for the "go" part of the
touch and go. So I do that every time: Land, or "arrive" on the
runway, snap the flaps switch to up saying "flaps up" in my mind and
sometimes out loud, then verify that they are both moving up and power
up when they get stowed.

Corky Scott

[AJW]

>
>>Yes, the little metal bar moves. I'm going to put painting it red on my
>>list. Still, looking at a big thing out side the plane as opposed to a
>>little thing down on the panel seems safer to me.
>>
>>If you can train yourself to hear the noise, that's probably as good as
>>taking a look. It's easy to miss the absence of noise though as my friend
>>found out.
>
>This wasn't taught to me, but since normal takeoff in a Cessna 172 is
>with flaps up, I thought it would be a good idea to verify that the
>flaps were in fact up before powering up for the "go" part of the
>touch and go. So I do that every time: Land, or "arrive" on the
>runway, snap the flaps switch to up saying "flaps up" in my mind and
>sometimes out loud, then verify that they are both moving up and power
>up when they get stowed.
>
>Corky Scott
>
So what do you guys do in a 172, going into a short field, and having to abort
when you're in the flare? Consider a deer in the runway, or something like
that, that makes a go round the attractive choice? Will the airplane climb at a
couple of hundred feet a minute with 30 degree flaps? If it does, why are you
concerned about verifying flap retraction? Doesn't attitude, rate of climb,
that sort of thing, tell you everything you need to know to fly the miss? The
question I'm not asking very well is, how does knowing the flaps are not going
up change anything you're doing as you throttle up and go to best angle or rate
of climb airspeed? This is not trolling, I'm trying to understand the issue
better.

As a side note, the old Mooney Rangers had manual gear retraction, a great big
Johnson bar between the seats. The trick was, after takeoff, to retract the
gear with a little forward pressure on the yoke -- they'd suck right up, at the
cost a few hundred feet a minute of climb rate for 5 seconds or so. If you ever
watched a Ranger take off and wobble all over the runway heading, you could be
sure the pilot was stuggling with that damned bar, it felt like a 100 pound
curl if it wasn't done right.

Also, gear up landings were very rare, that great big thing was right there
against the panel, and besides, if your arm didn't hurt or your knuckles
weren't bleeding, the gear was probably still up.

Those airplanes had hydrolic flaps, you pumped them down, if I recall
correctly, and they 'bled' up smoothly.

Rangers also got carb ice in an instant. I seem to have a memory of the egt
right on the yoke, and that was a great indicator of icing. But I've other
memories of the clock being there.

Getting old does things to my memory. Someone will probably be telling me they
didn't have hyrdolic flaps or something.

..

[Roger Long]

I'm not generally one to take my own advice (knowing the source as I do) but
I decided to make an exception in this case.

I took our 172 N (160 hp, 1966 lbs as loaded) out up 3400 foot density
altitude and set up in approach configuration with 20 degrees of flaps. When
I reached mid flare speed, I put in full power. Trimmed as for my usual
landing (I trim at midfield and leave it alone as I like a bit of pressure
on the yoke to work against) there was enough pitch up that speed could
bleed off pretty fast if you were flying by yoke feel and not really on top
of it.

If you are one of those who trim all pressure off on short final, you'd have
even more yoke pressure to deal with. 500 fpm climb was achieved pretty
quickly but at enough lower airspeed that the climb gradient would be a
concern in a marginal situation.

I climbed up 2000 feet without seeing any significant drop off in vertical
speed. The plane was quite controllable and easy to handle once some nose
trim was rolled in. Then I set it up again with 30 degrees of flaps.

There was more pitch up with 30 degrees and the need to hold the nose down
to pick up airspeed. It took a long time for the airspeed to come up to
where I could establish a good climb rate. A mid length runway would
disappear real fast. Once I had the speed, I could get back to 500 fpm climb
and had no trouble doing a climbing turn up another 1000 feet. You wouldn't
want to be doing this in a tight spot among hills though.

With 40 degrees of flaps, the plane didn't climb at all when the throttle
was pushed forward. A slight relaxation of the yoke as you might do when
starting a go around with that much yoke pressure caused the airspeed to
drop instantly. Pushing the nose over to build up speed created an immediate
20 foot sink followed by a painfully slow building of airspeed. I must have
used up a couple of short field lengths before I got enough speed to work
into a climb and had to roll in a good bit of nose trim.

250 fpm was the best climb I could manage. There was a noticeable buffet at
60 knots and dropping the nose didn't change the airspeed much. I was able
to climb 500 feet and turn but it would have hair raising with terrain
around.

If you lose flap function at the 40 degree setting going into a short and
obstructed field, you are going to have to make some very rapid lifestyle
choices. Go into the tree trunks at the speed you can slow down to in an
emergency abort or into the softer tops at 60 knots might be the two best
picks. You have two seconds to make up your mind.

Flap failure at 30 degrees in these conditions would be still be enough
excitement for any day.

This is one of those things that makes you realize how much is sometimes
riding on toy quality components assembled in third world countries by bored
workers. If there is any doubt about your flap function at all (just being
in a post 1976 Cessna could qualify for that) aggressive slipping with 10
degrees of flaps into tight fields has a lot more to recommend it than I
thought previously.

--

Roger Long



"Roger Long" > wrote in message
...
> One of the more experienced pilots in our club scared himself climbing out
> of a touch and go during which he didn't notice that the flaps had frozen
at
> 20 degrees on our 172.
>
> I've been investigating the flap system on Cessna's and am impressed how
> easily a bit of fluff or corrosion in just one switch can let the flaps go
> down but then fail to retract.
>
> This leaves me convinced that CFI's and all of us should be drilling in
the
> glance over the shoulder to verify retraction on all touch and goes and go
> arounds. Practicing climb outs from minimum airspeed with all flap
settings
> is a very neglected part of airwork and probably as important to safety as
> doing stalls.
>
> --
>
> Roger Long
>
>
>
>

[G.R. Patterson III]

Roger Long wrote:
>
> There was more pitch up with 30 degrees ...... You wouldn't
> want to be doing this in a tight spot among hills though.

Or anywhere close to max gross, I bet.

George Patterson
If you want to know God's opinion of money, just look at the people
he gives it to.

[Roy Smith]

"Roger Long" > wrote:
> This is one of those things that makes you realize how much is sometimes
> riding on toy quality components assembled in third world countries by bored
> workers. If there is any doubt about your flap function at all (just being
> in a post 1976 Cessna could qualify for that) aggressive slipping with 10
> degrees of flaps into tight fields has a lot more to recommend it than I
> thought previously.

Years ago, when I was doing my instrument training, I was on a night IFR
flight with my instructor when we had a partial electrical failure
(lights got dim, radios started getting scratchy, no transponder)
shortly after takeoff. We canceled IFR and headed back to the field.

On the way back, we discussed the fact that we might have enough power
to put the flaps down, but not enough to pick them back up if we needed
to do a go-around. We had plenty of runway, so decided to do a flapless
landing.

On downwind, my brain went into automatic mode and selected 10 degrees
of flaps without even thinking about it. I immediately realized what I
had done, and we decided to just leave the 10 flaps and land like that.
We landed uneventfully.

It amazing how you do things at an automatic level, and even when you
make a conscious decision to do something different, often times you'll
go ahead and do the usual thing anyway, without even thinking about it.
If I was in a similar situation again, I'd probably put a "INOP" sticky
on the flap handle, to remind myself not to use it. Remember the scene
in Apollo 13 where one of the astronauts taped a "NO!" sign over the
switch which fired the LEM disconnect pyros to make sure he didn't hit
it by mistake?

[Newps]

Dale wrote:


>
>
> On the 180, 182, 185 and 206 20 degrees flaps are used for takeoff.

Up to 20 degrees. You don't need them at all if you are light or the
runway is long.

[Roger Halstead]

On Wed, 18 Aug 2004 08:07:16 -0400, Cub Driver
> wrote:

>On Wed, 18 Aug 2004 01:00:01 GMT, Roger Halstead
> wrote:
>
>>The old Hershey Bar winged Cherokee 180s also used the Johnson bar.
>>It was the only plane where I could raise the flaps and actually
>>shorten the landing roll. The electric ones are just too slow.
>
>I took Damien Del -- well, I took the Andover NJ "bush flying" course
>last year. He taught this technique in the Aviat Husky. (Also flying
>in ground effect over the corn stubble short of the threshold, then
>dumping the flaps just as you reach the grass. Voila! 250-foot
>landing!)

Couple years ago I took part in a spot landing contest. It was pretty
much a no rules type rather than you and only reduce throttle and add
flaps type of thing.

I thought I was doing pretty good touching down on the mains with
something like 21 or 22 inches to go. The a couple pilots flying a 172
both made 11 inches. Then the FBO, Terry Blodgett got out his old
V-35. He set the mains on the tape and cut it in two.

At any rate, where I was headed was Cherokees, Johnson bars, and short
fields. There was a Cherokee that came in with all seats full. I
think it was a Cherokee 6, but it's been a while. At any rate (think I
already said that), he was dragging it in and then dumped the flaps.
Thing is, he was a tad higher than he though. It sounded like someone
dropped a trash can on the runway. A big trash can<:-)) All that and
he didn't come close to the 4 closest landings.

Those Cherokees are rugged! I've seen proof<snicker>

>I had a bleeding knuckle after a couple hours of this.
>
Just one?

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

>all the best -- Dan Ford
>email: (put Cubdriver in subject line)
>
>The Warbird's Forum www.warbirdforum.com
>Expedition sailboat charters www.expeditionsail.com

[G.R. Patterson III]

Roy Smith wrote:
>
> Now I fly mostly Pipers. I really like the manual flaps instead of
> Cessna's electric ones, and curse the electric trim Piper uses instead
> of Cessna's manual trim system.

Maule gives you manual systems for both!

George Patterson
If you want to know God's opinion of money, just look at the people
he gives it to.

[tony roberts]

My Flap position indicator indicates up or 40 degrees with a mediocre
degree of accuracy. Anything else is on its whim.
So check the flaps? You bet - every single time.

As to Rogers suggestion to slip into short fields, it's a good one.
Anything that makes us practice and perfect basic manouvers can only be
good.

Tony
--

Tony Roberts
PP-ASEL
VFR OTT
Night
Cessna 172H C-GICE



In article >,
"Roger Long" > wrote:

> One of the more experienced pilots in our club scared himself climbing out
> of a touch and go during which he didn't notice that the flaps had frozen at
> 20 degrees on our 172.
>
> I've been investigating the flap system on Cessna's and am impressed how
> easily a bit of fluff or corrosion in just one switch can let the flaps go
> down but then fail to retract.
>
> This leaves me convinced that CFI's and all of us should be drilling in the
> glance over the shoulder to verify retraction on all touch and goes and go
> arounds. Practicing climb outs from minimum airspeed with all flap settings
> is a very neglected part of airwork and probably as important to safety as
> doing stalls.

[Ratty Boy]

On Wed, 18 Aug 2004 17:21:19 GMT, "G.R. Patterson III"
> wrote:

> If you want to know God's opinion of money, just look at the people
> he gives it to.

This has stuck in my mind..... hehe.

[Paul Sengupta]

"Roy Smith" > wrote in message
...
> Now I fly mostly Pipers. I really like the manual flaps instead of
> Cessna's electric ones, and curse the electric trim Piper uses instead
> of Cessna's manual trim system.

Is there not a manual trim wheel then?

Paul

[Roy Smith]

In article >,
"Paul Sengupta" > wrote:

> "Roy Smith" > wrote in message
> ...
> > Now I fly mostly Pipers. I really like the manual flaps instead of
> > Cessna's electric ones, and curse the electric trim Piper uses instead
> > of Cessna's manual trim system.
>
> Is there not a manual trim wheel then?
>
> Paul

There is, but it's not in a very convenient place (stuffed between the
front seats). The Piper electric trim is very convenient when it works,
the problem is that it so often doesn't work :-(

[Bob Chilcoat]

I've never flown a Piper with electric trim, but I find the manual trim
wheel between the seats very convenient. You don't have to lean forward to
work it like the manual trim in a Skyhawk (the only Cessna I've flown), and
it falls easily to hand without looking. The only problem I've had was when
I weighed 60 lb more and I had a similar-sized passenger in the right seat.
Then I found that it was a bit of a squeeze (that might have been
misunderstood) getting to it between our hips :-).

--
Bob (Chief Pilot, White Knuckle Airways)

I don't have to like Bush and Cheney (Or Kerry, for that matter) to love
America

"Roy Smith" > wrote in message
...
> In article >,
> "Paul Sengupta" > wrote:
>
> > "Roy Smith" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > > Now I fly mostly Pipers. I really like the manual flaps instead of
> > > Cessna's electric ones, and curse the electric trim Piper uses instead
> > > of Cessna's manual trim system.
> >
> > Is there not a manual trim wheel then?
> >
> > Paul
>
> There is, but it's not in a very convenient place (stuffed between the
> front seats). The Piper electric trim is very convenient when it works,
> the problem is that it so often doesn't work :-(

[Roger Halstead]

On Thu, 19 Aug 2004 15:00:08 +0100, "Paul Sengupta"
> wrote:

>"Roy Smith" > wrote in message
...
>> Now I fly mostly Pipers. I really like the manual flaps instead of
>> Cessna's electric ones, and curse the electric trim Piper uses instead

That electric trim is one of the greatest things since sliced bread.

>> of Cessna's manual trim system.
>
>Is there not a manual trim wheel then?

Yup

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com
>
>Paul
>

[Tom Fleischman]

In article >, Bob Chilcoat
> wrote:

> I've never flown a Piper with electric trim, but I find the manual trim
> wheel between the seats very convenient. You don't have to lean forward to
> work it like the manual trim in a Skyhawk (the only Cessna I've flown), and
> it falls easily to hand without looking. The only problem I've had was when
> I weighed 60 lb more and I had a similar-sized passenger in the right seat.
> Then I found that it was a bit of a squeeze (that might have been
> misunderstood) getting to it between our hips :-).
>

To quote my wife:

"You do tell your other passengers what you're doing wehen you reach
down there, right??!!"

[Roger Halstead]

On Thu, 19 Aug 2004 10:42:17 -0400, Roy Smith > wrote:

>In article >,
> "Paul Sengupta" > wrote:
>
>> "Roy Smith" > wrote in message
>> ...
>> > Now I fly mostly Pipers. I really like the manual flaps instead of
>> > Cessna's electric ones, and curse the electric trim Piper uses instead
>> > of Cessna's manual trim system.
>>
>> Is there not a manual trim wheel then?
>>
>> Paul
>
>There is, but it's not in a very convenient place (stuffed between the
>front seats). The Piper electric trim is very convenient when it works,
>the problem is that it so often doesn't work :-(

I was a partner in a Cherokee 180 (N6360J). It had electric trim which
never failed in the 375 hours I put on it. I've never heard of the
current partners complain. The trim wheel is between the seats in a
natural position to just put your hand on it. For all 5 of us and the
partners since, it has worked just fine. I think they've worn out two
engines in that plane, but the trim has not been a problem.

BTW I'd love to have an electric trim in the Deb that worked like the
one in old sixty Juliet.

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

[Bob Noel]

In article >, "Julian Scarfe"
> wrote:

> How exactly do Piper manual flap systems work then?

extend flaps against the spring. retract flaps an exercise
in making they don't snap back (push the button and let the
bar down slowly).

--
Bob Noel
Seen on Kerry's campaign airplane: "the real deal"
oh yeah baby.

[Julian Scarfe]

In article >,
> "C J Campbell" > wrote:
>
> > Most of the problems that I have had on Cessna 172s have been with
flaps. I
> > agree that pilots should verify flaps up on touch and goes.
> >
> > Cessna used to have manual flaps. Why did they ever go to this flakey
> > electrical system in the first place?

"Roy Smith" > wrote in message
...

> I did my initial training in Cessnas, and "verify flaps retracting" was
> drummed into me as part of the touch-and-go procedure.
>
> Now I fly mostly Pipers. I really like the manual flaps instead of
> Cessna's electric ones, and curse the electric trim Piper uses instead
> of Cessna's manual trim system.
>
> Simple stuff just works better.

How exactly do Piper manual flap systems work then? We have a Piper Twin
Comanche with an electric flap system. The flaps are pushed down, but come
back up using springs, in effect after latches are removed. We've now had
two asymmetric flap retractions, where one of the springs failed to do its
job. This is Not Good.

So when you lower the flap handle in a manual Piper system, does it drag the
flaps up or does it merely take the latch away and allow the spring to do
its job, as in the electrical equivalent?

Julian Scarfe

[Barry]

> How exactly do Piper manual flap systems work then? We have a Piper Twin
> Comanche with an electric flap system. The flaps are pushed down, but come
> back up using springs, in effect after latches are removed. We've now had
> two asymmetric flap retractions, where one of the springs failed to do its
> job. This is Not Good.

Was this on the ground after landing, or in flight? I'd think that the air
load on extended flaps would help push them up in flight.

[Ash Wyllie]

Barry opined

>> How exactly do Piper manual flap systems work then? We have a Piper Twin
>> Comanche with an electric flap system. The flaps are pushed down, but come
>> back up using springs, in effect after latches are removed. We've now had
>> two asymmetric flap retractions, where one of the springs failed to do its
>> job. This is Not Good.

>Was this on the ground after landing, or in flight? I'd think that the air
>load on extended flaps would help push them up in flight.

It won't. I had one flap not retract once. It just got hung up half way for some
reason. So I just lowered the flaps until they were symmetric and landed.

It helped that it was a test flight and I was in the pattern at the time.



-ash
Cthulhu for President!
Why vote for a lesser evil?

[Julian Scarfe]

> > We've now had
> > two asymmetric flap retractions, where one of the springs failed to do
its
> > job. This is Not Good.

"Barry" > wrote in message ...
>
> Was this on the ground after landing, or in flight? I'd think that the
air
> load on extended flaps would help push them up in flight.

It was in flight. I'm not sure what the magnitudes of the airloads are.

Julian

[Paul Sengupta]

"Julian Scarfe" > wrote in message
...
> "Barry" > wrote in message
...
> >
> > Was this on the ground after landing, or in flight? I'd think that the
> air
> > load on extended flaps would help push them up in flight.
>
> It was in flight. I'm not sure what the magnitudes of the airloads are.

Not answering the original question, I've noticed something recently with
my plane. It has electric flaps. It has two "notches", 15 degrees and
45 degrees, marked "take off" and "landing". When I'm on the ground
and set the flaps to "take off", the motor runs for a certain distance,
stops, but the flaps continue moving for a second and end up in the
correct position.

When I'm in flight, when I select the first notch, the motor runs for the
same distance but presumably because of the air loads, the flaps
stop there, i.e. no run on. This means the flaps aren't extended the
correct amount when set to 15 degrees in the air.

Apart from adding friction to the motor/mechanism so there's no run-on
on the ground, then re-adjusting for the correct position, is there any
way round this?

Paul

[Paul Sengupta]

"Julian Scarfe" > wrote in message
...
> So when you lower the flap handle in a manual Piper system, does it drag
the
> flaps up or does it merely take the latch away and allow the spring to do
> its job, as in the electrical equivalent?

Hardly a definitive answer but I seem to remember pre-flighting
something (may have been a PA28) where the flaps stuck down
when I put the lever back down. A quick nudge freed them.

Paul

[Bill Denton]

Are you sure there is a problem? If the flaps end up in the correct position
the motor run duration may simply be a part of the way things are designed.




"Paul Sengupta" > wrote in message
...
> "Julian Scarfe" > wrote in message
> ...
> > "Barry" > wrote in message
> ...
> > >
> > > Was this on the ground after landing, or in flight? I'd think that
the
> > air
> > > load on extended flaps would help push them up in flight.
> >
> > It was in flight. I'm not sure what the magnitudes of the airloads are.
>
> Not answering the original question, I've noticed something recently with
> my plane. It has electric flaps. It has two "notches", 15 degrees and
> 45 degrees, marked "take off" and "landing". When I'm on the ground
> and set the flaps to "take off", the motor runs for a certain distance,
> stops, but the flaps continue moving for a second and end up in the
> correct position.
>
> When I'm in flight, when I select the first notch, the motor runs for the
> same distance but presumably because of the air loads, the flaps
> stop there, i.e. no run on. This means the flaps aren't extended the
> correct amount when set to 15 degrees in the air.
>
> Apart from adding friction to the motor/mechanism so there's no run-on
> on the ground, then re-adjusting for the correct position, is there any
> way round this?
>
> Paul
>
>

[Dale]

In article >,
"Paul Sengupta" > wrote:


> Not answering the original question, I've noticed something recently with
> my plane. It has electric flaps. It has two "notches", 15 degrees and
> 45 degrees, marked "take off" and "landing". When I'm on the ground
> and set the flaps to "take off", the motor runs for a certain distance,
> stops, but the flaps continue moving for a second and end up in the
> correct position.
>
> When I'm in flight, when I select the first notch, the motor runs for the
> same distance but presumably because of the air loads, the flaps
> stop there, i.e. no run on. This means the flaps aren't extended the
> correct amount when set to 15 degrees in the air.

Are you flaps driven by a jack-screw?

Are you sure that the flaps are going to 15 when on the ground? Perhaps
they are adjusted to give you 15 with airloads on them but overrun
slightly on the ground.

--
Dale L. Falk

There is nothing - absolutely nothing - half so much worth doing
as simply messing around with airplanes.

http://home.gci.net/~sncdfalk/flying.html

[Paul Sengupta]

"Dale" > wrote in message
...
> In article >,
> "Paul Sengupta" > wrote:
>
> > Not answering the original question, I've noticed something recently
with
> > my plane. It has electric flaps. It has two "notches", 15 degrees and
> > 45 degrees, marked "take off" and "landing". When I'm on the ground
> > and set the flaps to "take off", the motor runs for a certain distance,
> > stops, but the flaps continue moving for a second and end up in the
> > correct position.
> >
> > When I'm in flight, when I select the first notch, the motor runs for
the
> > same distance but presumably because of the air loads, the flaps
> > stop there, i.e. no run on. This means the flaps aren't extended the
> > correct amount when set to 15 degrees in the air.
>
> Are your flaps driven by a jack-screw?

Um, I presume so. Haven't looked.

> Are you sure that the flaps are going to 15 when on the ground? Perhaps
> they are adjusted to give you 15 with airloads on them but overrun
> slightly on the ground.

Maybe. But then they'd be in the wrong position for take-off! :-)
Handbook says to take off with take-off flap and gives the technique
for doing so. It does not mention take-off without flap at all. Mind
you, it takes off just fine without them! :-)

There's a flap position indicator dial and it points exactly to the take-off
position when lowered on the ground. When lowered in the air, it
stops slightly before. Adjusting the motor cut-off point is easy, there's
an adjustable microswitch under the floor just behind the seats.

In the real world, this isn't a problem...I doubt an extra/fewer couple
of degrees of flap movement makes much difference to my flying!

Paul

[Paul Sengupta]

"Bill Denton" > wrote in message
...
> Are you sure there is a problem? If the flaps end up in the correct
position
> the motor run duration may simply be a part of the way things are
designed.

That's the thing, they end up in different positions depending
on whether you're on the ground or in the air. Not hugely
different, just enough to have my formation instructor comment
on it.

Paul