Busted ADIZ - What Now?

[Scott Lowrey]

I haven't posted to this group for months so forgive me if this has been
discussed in other thread.

I'm looking for advice on how to respond to an FAA order suspending my
ticket. I've read and posted here for some time but I stopped after
last May. I respect the opinions of most in this group, so I'll check
with all of you before I make up my mind.

I clipped the DC ADIZ back in May. I was flying out of Frederick, MD
and meant to head for Harper's Ferry. I read the Potomac River wrong
and flew straight south into the ADIZ near Dulles before correcting to
the west. After I landed, the FBO staff informed me that the FAA wanted
to have a chat. I called them and, several days later, filed my report.

It was my second or third flight out of FDK. I'm new to Maryland and
only have 100 hours in my log book. I knew the rules of the ADIZ. I
basically failed to establish a correct heading after takeoff due to
stress and rusty skills; I froze, and kept blundering forward,
essentially lost for several minutes on a sunny day. The GPS was
different from what I was used to and I meant to practice VOR-only nav
that day. I felt pretty shook up for a few minutes but completed the
rest of the flight without problems.

So, I've got this letter presenting the order and several options. I
can appeal the order either formally or informally. I could have gotten
a waiver but that would have required a "timely" safety report to NASA,
which I didn't do. I (or an attorney on my behalf) can send in another
report, furthing explaining what happened. Or, I can simply surrender my
certificate.

The way I look at it, I simply screwed up and probably need remedial
training. But I can't train without a ticket. I don't see how I can
get around the penalty, since it's justified. Should I seek legal
counsel from AOPA? Doesn't seem worth the time to me.

I'm pretty discouraged and haven't been interested in flying ever since
I left the FBO that day. I did my homework before the flight, always
prided myself on knowing the rules of the system... but when it came
right down to it, I just didn't fly right. Now I'm wondering, as a
renter, when I'll ever be confident of my skills. Unless I continue
pursuing my IR (aborted last year when I moved) and really spend a lot
of time up there (and a lot of cash), what good is it? I'll just be a
sucky 20-hour-per-year pilot.

What would you do?

--Scott

[G.R. Patterson III]

Scott Lowrey wrote:
>
> What would you do?

I assume from some comments you made that you're an AOPA member. I would get legal
advice from them. It may be that the cost of fighting the suspension is too high
(that's a decision for you to make), but you might be able to get it reduced. How
long is the suspension period?

This sort of situation is exactly why I signed up for AOPA's legal plan a few years
ago.

George Patterson
If you want to know God's opinion of money, just look at the people
he gives it to.

[David Herman]

I would echo exactly what George posted. Call AOPA and discuss it with
them. They will know what your options are and what your chances are
with each.

I added the legal services option with my AOPA renewal, too. For
anyone who routinely flys around DC, NY or anyplace else where there
are oodles of needless flight restrictions (like near Seattle where I
live), I think the AOPA legal services option makes a OT of sense.

Good luck and don't let things keep you down.

In article <5L4Vc.38839$mD.35434@attbi_s02>, Scott Lowrey
> wrote:

> I haven't posted to this group for months so forgive me if this has been
> discussed in other thread.
>
> I'm looking for advice on how to respond to an FAA order suspending my
> ticket. I've read and posted here for some time but I stopped after
> last May. I respect the opinions of most in this group, so I'll check
> with all of you before I make up my mind.
>
> I clipped the DC ADIZ back in May. I was flying out of Frederick, MD
> and meant to head for Harper's Ferry. I read the Potomac River wrong
> and flew straight south into the ADIZ near Dulles before correcting to
> the west. After I landed, the FBO staff informed me that the FAA wanted
> to have a chat. I called them and, several days later, filed my report.
>
> It was my second or third flight out of FDK. I'm new to Maryland and
> only have 100 hours in my log book. I knew the rules of the ADIZ. I
> basically failed to establish a correct heading after takeoff due to
> stress and rusty skills; I froze, and kept blundering forward,
> essentially lost for several minutes on a sunny day. The GPS was
> different from what I was used to and I meant to practice VOR-only nav
> that day. I felt pretty shook up for a few minutes but completed the
> rest of the flight without problems.
>
> So, I've got this letter presenting the order and several options. I
> can appeal the order either formally or informally. I could have gotten
> a waiver but that would have required a "timely" safety report to NASA,
> which I didn't do. I (or an attorney on my behalf) can send in another
> report, furthing explaining what happened. Or, I can simply surrender my
> certificate.
>
> The way I look at it, I simply screwed up and probably need remedial
> training. But I can't train without a ticket. I don't see how I can
> get around the penalty, since it's justified. Should I seek legal
> counsel from AOPA? Doesn't seem worth the time to me.
>
> I'm pretty discouraged and haven't been interested in flying ever since
> I left the FBO that day. I did my homework before the flight, always
> prided myself on knowing the rules of the system... but when it came
> right down to it, I just didn't fly right. Now I'm wondering, as a
> renter, when I'll ever be confident of my skills. Unless I continue
> pursuing my IR (aborted last year when I moved) and really spend a lot
> of time up there (and a lot of cash), what good is it? I'll just be a
> sucky 20-hour-per-year pilot.
>
> What would you do?
>
> --Scott
>

[Geoffrey Barnes]

> The way I look at it, I simply screwed up and probably need remedial
> training. ... I don't see how I can get around the penalty, since it's
> justified.

First of all, I respect you for admitting that you done wrong, and not
simply portraying yourself as a victim. That kind of attitude tells me that
you are the kind of guy that I want to share the sky with, unlike the
multitudes of butt-nuggets out there who think that the rules don't apply to
them.

> I'm pretty discouraged and haven't been interested in flying ever since
> I left the FBO that day. I did my homework before the flight, always
> prided myself on knowing the rules of the system... but when it came
> right down to it, I just didn't fly right.

You are seriously down on yourself. To some extent, that's admirable. You
are being brutally objective in evaluating both your behavior and your
skills. Again, that's a signal to me that you have the makings of a very
good pilot. But -- and this is just my opinion -- I think you may be taking
this self-criticism too far. You are new to the DC area. You are new to
flying. The rules you busted are relatively new and subject to change on a
frequent basis. That doesn't make it right to break them, but it does make
what you did a bit more understandable. As someone with just under 100
hours myself, I can completely understand how my own modest skills could go
completely pear-shaped in the same situation. I think anyone who has ever
flown can relate to what happened, especially if they think back to their
own skill level back when they had just 100 hours in their own logbooks.

> Now I'm wondering, as a renter, when I'll ever be confident of my skills.
> Unless I continue pursuing my IR (aborted last year when I moved) and
> really spend a lot of time up there (and a lot of cash), what good is it?
> I'll just be a sucky 20-hour-per-year pilot.

When I finished my checkride, I got a lot of people giving me the
age-old-cliche that the Private Pilot's certificate is a "license to learn".
You only get better by doing it more, and one of the ways that you learn is
by making a mistake now and again. Sure, you made a mistake, but I can tell
from what you have written that you have learned a great deal from what
happened. I can understand a crisis of confidence, but the only way to get
past that is to get up there and fly some more.

> So, I've got this letter presenting the order and several options. I
> can appeal the order either formally or informally.
>
> What would you do?

Scott, you don't sound like you are willing to go through the trouble and
expense of a formal appeal, but what is involved in doing it informally? Do
you have a number you can call to ask what's involved in an informal appeal?
At the very least, I would call AOPA and ask them what's involved. Heck,
since you are right there in Fredrick, you could even walk in and ask them
about how these things work.

I don't know how uptight the FAA is about the ADIZ. Maybe it is hopeless,
but they would have to be pretty heartless and blind to ignore the fact that
you are simply a low-time pilot who made a mistake, and they surely couldn't
help but notice the fact that you have learned from your mistake.

In any event, I hope that you don't just simply give up and turn in your
certificate. You invested thousands of dollars and a huge chunk of time to
get it in the first place, and you really seem like the type of person who
we need more of in GA. You have a good head on your shoulders, you are
willing to listen and learn, and you aren't so egotistical that you think
the rules don't apply to you. I wish there were more people like that in
this industry. I can understand not wanting to make a formal proceeding out
of this situation, but I would at least try to use the informal route to
save my ticket and keep learning.

And don't lose your confidence. From what I can see, you are a good pilot,
Scott. I've never even met you, and I'd already fly with you.





---
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Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
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[Blanche]

For starters, don't believe everything here.

Next -- if you are a member of AOPA contact the legal dept.

If you are not a member of AOPA, find a good aviation lawyer
in your area.

Lastly -- stop talking about it in public. Talk to your
lawyer and only your lawyer.

harsh, but necessary.

[Kyler Laird]

Blanche > writes:

>Lastly -- stop talking about it in public. Talk to your
>lawyer and only your lawyer.

But *please* summarize when you're done. Think of the next guy.

--kyler

[zatatime]

On Thu, 19 Aug 2004 16:41:37 GMT, Scott Lowrey >
wrote:

>I knew the rules of the ADIZ. I
>basically failed to establish a correct heading after takeoff due to
>stress and rusty skills; I froze, and kept blundering forward,
>essentially lost for several minutes on a sunny day. The GPS was
>different from what I was used to and I meant to practice VOR-only nav
>that day. I felt pretty shook up for a few minutes but completed the
>rest of the flight without problems.


I'm not sure what to tell you as far as proceeding with the legal
aspect of this, but I'd at least call AOPA.

It seems as though you've identified where your problem is...a
deficiency in pilotage/navigation. Whether you lose your ticket for
30/90 days or not, I wouldn't quit; I'd get with an instructor for a
few lessons, turn the VORs and GPS off and get confident in your
skills with a map and compass. Your whole issue started when you
didn't identify Potomac river correctly. With better VFR navigation
skills this might not have happened. Having an IFR ticket won't help
build these skills.

As far as being a sucky 20 hr/yr pilot, if you keep learning and keep
working on your skills eventually you'll be a good 20 hr/yr pilot. I
know many people who don't get into the 50 or 100 hr per year flight
time, but because they make the most out of their flights they are
very safe and competent people.

If it makes you feel any better at lunch today my friend and I told
each other stories of mistakes we made as students, and looked at how
valuable each lesson was where a mistake happened. Nobody's perfect
as much as we'd like to be.

HTH
z

P.S. Maybe if you offer the FAA the option of excepting 10 or so hour
remedial training program they'd back off a bit. They might want a
609 ride after the training is done, but it's worth a shot and you can
keep flying.

[Peter Gottlieb]

"Scott Lowrey" > wrote in message
news:5L4Vc.38839$mD.35434@attbi_s02...
> What would you do?


As everyone else has said, stop talking about this in public and contact
AOPA's legal department. They will give you a direction. If you are not on
their legal plan, it may be better for you to get your own lawyer; again,
they will tell you and point you in the right direction.

They NEED to know about these things, even if you don't use them for any
legal help.

You spent a lot of time and effort getting your pilot's certificate. Don't
let these stupid rules end it. Get some REAL legal assistance and follow
it. Whatever happens, make the best of it and move on. You will be flying
again soon.

..

[Brien K. Meehan]

Scott Lowrey wrote:
> Should I seek legal counsel from AOPA?

Yes!

> Doesn't seem worth the time to me.

How much time will it take? How much time are you willing to spend?

> What would you do?

Get legal help, request an informal appeal, and counter-offer a penalty
of remedial training.

[Troy Towner]

If it is within 3 months of the incident file an ASRS report.
This will be processed and added to a database of many other aviations
mistakes. When they are done getting the information from the report they
mail you back a slip which proves you made an ASRS report. Now that slip is
a "get out of jail free card" if the FAA does come after you say that you
filed the ASRS report. NOTE: this can only be used as a get out of jail free
card once every 3 years..( I think maybe longer). So file that report. You
can pick up a form from the local FBO or airport!

GOOD Luck!

Troy



"Scott Lowrey" > wrote in message
news:5L4Vc.38839$mD.35434@attbi_s02...
> I haven't posted to this group for months so forgive me if this has been
> discussed in other thread.
>
> I'm looking for advice on how to respond to an FAA order suspending my
> ticket. I've read and posted here for some time but I stopped after
> last May. I respect the opinions of most in this group, so I'll check
> with all of you before I make up my mind.
>
> I clipped the DC ADIZ back in May. I was flying out of Frederick, MD
> and meant to head for Harper's Ferry. I read the Potomac River wrong
> and flew straight south into the ADIZ near Dulles before correcting to
> the west. After I landed, the FBO staff informed me that the FAA wanted
> to have a chat. I called them and, several days later, filed my report.
>
> It was my second or third flight out of FDK. I'm new to Maryland and
> only have 100 hours in my log book. I knew the rules of the ADIZ. I
> basically failed to establish a correct heading after takeoff due to
> stress and rusty skills; I froze, and kept blundering forward,
> essentially lost for several minutes on a sunny day. The GPS was
> different from what I was used to and I meant to practice VOR-only nav
> that day. I felt pretty shook up for a few minutes but completed the
> rest of the flight without problems.
>
> So, I've got this letter presenting the order and several options. I
> can appeal the order either formally or informally. I could have gotten
> a waiver but that would have required a "timely" safety report to NASA,
> which I didn't do. I (or an attorney on my behalf) can send in another
> report, furthing explaining what happened. Or, I can simply surrender my
> certificate.
>
> The way I look at it, I simply screwed up and probably need remedial
> training. But I can't train without a ticket. I don't see how I can
> get around the penalty, since it's justified. Should I seek legal
> counsel from AOPA? Doesn't seem worth the time to me.
>
> I'm pretty discouraged and haven't been interested in flying ever since
> I left the FBO that day. I did my homework before the flight, always
> prided myself on knowing the rules of the system... but when it came
> right down to it, I just didn't fly right. Now I'm wondering, as a
> renter, when I'll ever be confident of my skills. Unless I continue
> pursuing my IR (aborted last year when I moved) and really spend a lot
> of time up there (and a lot of cash), what good is it? I'll just be a
> sucky 20-hour-per-year pilot.
>
> What would you do?
>
> --Scott
>

[Mike Ferrer]

"Troy Towner" > wrote in message
m...
> If it is within 3 months of the incident file an ASRS report.
> This will be processed and added to a database of many other aviations
> mistakes. When they are done getting the information from the report they
> mail you back a slip which proves you made an ASRS report. Now that slip
is
> a "get out of jail free card" if the FAA does come after you say that you
> filed the ASRS report. NOTE: this can only be used as a get out of jail
free
> card once every 3 years..( I think maybe longer). So file that report. You
> can pick up a form from the local FBO or airport!
>

You have to file the report within 10 days of the incident.

http://asrs.arc.nasa.gov/immunity_nf.htm

[tony roberts]

Hi Scott

Being from Canada I can't answer your question.
As you are no doubt aware, you will get all kinds of answers when you
post in a group such as this.
Several people here have given you the same advice -
"stop talking about this in public and contact
AOPA's legal department"
These are all people who have earned the respect of this group.
I can only say trust their advice - and goode luck.

Let us know how you fare

Best regards

Tony

--

Tony Roberts
PP-ASEL
VFR OTT
Night
Cessna 172H C-GICE

[Ace Pilot]

"Geoffrey Barnes" > wrote in message
> First of all, I respect you for admitting that you done wrong, and not
> simply portraying yourself as a victim. That kind of attitude tells me that
> you are the kind of guy that I want to share the sky with, unlike the
> multitudes of butt-nuggets out there who think that the rules don't apply to
> them.

Ditto. I'd be your wingman anyday, Scott.

[[email protected]]

On Thu, 19 Aug 2004 16:41:37 GMT, Scott Lowrey > wrote:

>I clipped the DC ADIZ back in May.
>
>Doesn't seem worth the time to me.

!!!!!?

>I'm pretty discouraged and haven't been interested in flying ever since
>I left the FBO that day.

THIS is your real problem. Your lack of interest in flying, not a temporary
certificate suspension. Admittedly, you made the mistake, and should pay the
consequences, but where is your indignation that this stupid ADIZ may cost you
your ticket? Aren't you just itching to get back into the sky and fly? Where
did the motivation that you brought to your flight training go?

If you no longer want to fly - if it truely "doesn't seem worth the time" to
you, then walk away, accept whatever the FAA wants to dish out, and let your
medical lapse. Bend over and hold your ankles, and get on with your life.

If you still want to fly, then fight as though your life depended on it.
Investigate what help AOPA might be, join their legal plan for the future, find
a lawyer, formally appeal and send in another report. Get some remedial
training NOW, as evidence to the FAA that you want to improve. And, yes, you
CAN train without a certificate, you just can't solo. You've let this sit and
fester for too long. After the smoke clears start looking for a partnership on
a plane.

>What would you do?

I'd fight for my certificate to my last breath and my last dollar. If I
couldn't fly, a part of me would die.

Demonick

[Thronson]

Fallen pilots remembered

http://www.dailyinterlake.com/NewsEngine/SelectStory_AD.tpl?command=search&db=news.db&eqskudata=68-807233-64



"Larry Baier, 53, one of two Kalispell men who died when their mail plane
crashed Tuesday night in the Little Belt Mountains, loved flying and
teaching people to fly, according to his family. "He taught a lot of people
in this valley how to fly," said Angela Baier, who is married to Baier's son
Jesse, 29, also of Kalispell. "It was just something he loved to do."
Larry Baier also is survived by his wife, Catherine, of Kalispell; daughter
Sara, 26, of Melbourne, Fla.; and sons Kace, 13, and Dakota, 11, of
Kalispell. Larry Baier's co-pilot on Tuesday, Scott Kiral, was once his
student. The two had formed a strong friendship that had lasted for years,
Angela Baier said. Baier, a flight instructor for about 26 of the 30 years
he had been a pilot, liked to do "fun-filled" things, Angela Baier said. In
addition to flying, he and son Jesse owned Applied Explosives, a local
blasting contracting firm that operates statewide. Larry Baier was teaching
his son to fly. "Dad and Jesse were working on getting" Jesse Baier a
pilot's license, Angela Baier said. Kiral, in his 30s, worked for
Installation Technologies in Kalispell. Owner Butch Keith described Kiral as
"one of a kind." A husband and stepfather, Kiral was "very intelligent" and
capable of flying a plane, driving a water truck, fighting fires, building a
computer and working on computer networks, Keith said. He said Kiral also
worked for Coldwell Banker from 2002-04. The two men had been flying from
Billings to Kalispell in a twin-engine Beech 99 airplane loaded with mail
when the aircraft went down near the top of Big Baldy Mountain, about 40
miles southeast of Great Falls. Baier had been flying the mail route for
five years for Alpine Air Express, a Utah-based U.S. Postal Service
contractor. The accident is still being investigated, but initial reports
said neither man had reported any trouble, and the plane's emergency locator
beacon did not transmit a signal. The first-class and priority mail on the
plane was bound for ZIP codes that begin with 599, which covers Flathead and
Lincoln counties. If any of the mail is salvageable, it will be released
after the National Transportation Safety Board finishes its investigation,
according to Ted Blazina, manager of marketing for the Montana district of
the U.S. Postal Service."


Larry, I did not get a chance to meet your friend Scott but I knew you very
well as my primary flight instructor, mentor and friend since 1990. Your
soft spoken words of flight direction always seem to surface when problems
arise.
In my mind, You will always be in the right seat.

Tail winds forever,
Pat Thronson
Babb, MT

[Bob Jones]

"Scott Lowrey" > wrote in message
news:5L4Vc.38839$mD.35434@attbi_s02
>
> I'm looking for advice on how to respond to an FAA order suspending my
> ticket.
>
> What would you do?

Don't beat yourself up too much about this. Others have said it, but talk
to AOPA.

With that said, the FAA is under "orders" from various alphabet soups to
tender mandatory suspensions for ADIZ violations. The FAA is *not* the bad
guy here, but rather just the unwilling front man.

First time ADIZ violators are facing suspensions - not revocations - of
certificates. This is not the end of your flying career and I believe
(without looking it up at the moment) that suspensions are cleared from your
record after a couple of years.

Contrary to what you may think, you *can* do flying related activities
without your certificate. You can perform simulator work, for example, that
can count toward an instrument rating.

--
John T
http://tknowlogy.com/TknoFlyer
http://www.pocketgear.com/products_search.asp?developerid=4415
____________________

[Dave Stadt]

"Bob Jones" > wrote in message
...
> "Scott Lowrey" > wrote in message
> news:5L4Vc.38839$mD.35434@attbi_s02
> >
> > I'm looking for advice on how to respond to an FAA order suspending my
> > ticket.
> >
> > What would you do?
>
> Don't beat yourself up too much about this. Others have said it, but talk
> to AOPA.
>
> With that said, the FAA is under "orders" from various alphabet soups to
> tender mandatory suspensions for ADIZ violations. The FAA is *not* the
bad
> guy here, but rather just the unwilling front man.
>
> First time ADIZ violators are facing suspensions - not revocations - of
> certificates.

Not always. Some I know have had short phone calls and nothing more was
done.

[C Kingsbury]

Scott Lowrey > wrote in message news:<5L4Vc.38839$mD.35434@attbi_s02>...

> I'm pretty discouraged and haven't been interested in flying ever since
> I left the FBO that day. I did my homework before the flight, always
> prided myself on knowing the rules of the system... but when it came
> right down to it, I just didn't fly right. Now I'm wondering, as a
> renter, when I'll ever be confident of my skills. Unless I continue
> pursuing my IR (aborted last year when I moved) and really spend a lot
> of time up there (and a lot of cash), what good is it? I'll just be a
> sucky 20-hour-per-year pilot.

Scott,

There's an old joke about a safety seminar where the presenter begins
by saying, "By simply walking through the door, statistics show you
are 30% less likely to die in a crash. That will conclude our seminar,
have a nice day." Attitude isn't everything but it's a lot of it.

A brief read of these groups will show that everyone makes mistakes,
and many of them are made by people with a lot more experience than
you. My 12,000 hour CFII said the closest he ever came to landing
gear-up was right after he passed 10,000 hours.

I got my PPL 2 years ago and felt a lot of very similar things to what
you've described. Definitely got disoriented (as in lost) slightly a
few times, and with the airspace around Boston being quite busy it's
as much luck as anything that I didn't clip someone's airspace. And
those were just the navigation mistakes. I'd make landings so ugly
that I'd be walking around the plane afterwards looking for wrinkles.
Absolutely everything bothered me, I have some "obsessive worrier"
characteristics in my personality (thanks, Mom!)

From what you've written I think your mistake is the kind many of us
have made, especially at that point in the learning curve, and
unfortunately you just made it in the worst place you could. If you
take heart in anything, consider that the consequences of your error
are due mostly to bureaucratic insanity rather than the true awfulness
of your offense. In 99.9% of the country being off by a mile or five
on one occasion will result in--hold your breath--absolutely nothing
happening to you. So take off your hair shirt.

In my case, I found a good CFI and had him push me hard in two
specific areas. First, we'd go out on very windy days (18g40 one time)
and work the crosswinds, which always bothered me. Now I feel much
better knowing that I can put the plane down safely in those
conditions. Second, because I fly mostly from paved 5000+ runways, I
go out and do short/soft-field pattern work every 6 months or so.
Again, knowing that I can put the 172 down in ~500' if necessary makes
me feel a lot better.

Regarding situational awareness, the lack of which is the key
contributor to your predicament, I can only say that I feel 100%
better with 200 hours than I did at 100 hours. If you fly more, you
will feel better about your flying.

Opinions here will differ widely, but in the Northeast/Mid-Atlantic
regions, I think an IR is a very worthwhile thing to get for many
reasons. It will buy you back a lot of those days where there's just
too much "M" in the "VFR" and even some IFR days where icing and
storms are not a factor. It's not true in many parts of the country
but out here average IFR pilots with basically-equipped airplanes do
safely fly lots of IFR every year so the utility is quite clear.

I will also suggest contra many that training for an IR will improve
your airmanship generally, because of the discipline it imposes, and
the way it challenges you to integrate the skills of aircraft
performance, radio navigation, and communications. That's why every
insurance company in the land gives substantial discounts to pilots
with one, and why it is near-impossible to get insurance in many
planes without it, even though they may be flown VFR much of the time.

Also, when I fly anywhere outside my neighborhood, I use flight
following. It guarantees nothing, but provides an additional low-cost
mechanism that may prevent some problems. In my experience in New
England, the quality and utility of these services has generally been
good.

Last, while I chose the intensive path of aircraft ownership (1/5th of
a 172 so it's not that expensive) and regular flying throughout the
year, it is possible to be a 20hr/yr pilot and not suck. It's kind of
the way my father skis. He started at the age of 55, and what he'll do
is go on vacation somewhere like Park City once a year for a week.
He'll take a 1/2 or full-day lesson on the first day and then ski all
day long the rest of the week. He'll never be all that good, but he is
both safe and competent and enjoys it greatly. As a pilot, recency of
experience counts for a lot, and if you mostly fly locally on nice
days during the summer, you can do OK on 20 hours per year.

Personally, I would not find this satisfying, which explains why I
found the time and money to continue my flying the way I have.

Best,
-cwk.

[Newps]

> "Scott Lowrey" > wrote in message
> news:5L4Vc.38839$mD.35434@attbi_s02
>
>>I'm looking for advice on how to respond to an FAA order suspending my
>>ticket.
>>
>>What would you do?

Well, you did it, you know you did it, take the punishment and get on
with life.

[Scott Lowrey]

Thanks, everyone, for responding -- including those who told me to shut
up and those who said, "Suck it up." :) For the most part, you've all
encouraged me to stop whining and get on with flying.

So, first let me respond to some of the advice I was given.

First, it *is* good advice to discuss these things only with an attorney
*if* you haven't already confessed in your report to the FAA. I
"confessed" in my initial report to the FAA because they asked me what
happened. I had no problem accepting responsibility and I still don't.
But, if there's a "next time", I might be a little wiser in my ways.

Second: file a NASA ASRS report at http://asrs.arc.nasa.gov/
immediately. These reports, if filed within 10 days of the incident,
will get you an FAA waiver. No penalty -- the first time around. I
don't know if this applies to all types of incidents (doubt it) but it
*will* get you off the hook for an unauthorized ADIZ excursion.

Third: join the AOPA Legal Services plan now. It's worth $26 per year.
I joined after the incident, so I was only entitled to a free half
hour consultation with an AOPA-recommended attorney. If I end up
requiring the services of that attorney, I'll be paying $175 per hour
out-of-pocket. For me, however, the half hour consultation provided me
with enough education and advice to justify the 26 bucks. I doubt that
I'll have any problems going this one alone.

Now, I'll tell you what happened after I started getting responses to my
Usenet posting.

I called AOPA. I was quickly passed to the right people and provided
with the name of an attorney in my area. I left a message on his voice
mail. My main concern was one of time. The certified letter proposing
a 30-day suspension of my ticket was three weeks late in arriving. It
said I had to respond by August 21 or "default", meaning I'd accepted
the proposal and would be mailing in my shiny new certificate.

I decided to call the FAA to ask them about the date. I had no idea
where to start, so I simply called the Washington FSDO. These people
were *extremely* pleasant and helpful. The first person who answered
the phone got right to the point: where did you get this letter? Who
signed it?

When I mentioned the Regional Counsel's signature, she said, "OK, that's
over our heads - we're a district office within the Eastern Region.
Who was the safety inspector you sent your initial report to?" She was
not familiar with the name I gave.

"Tell you what. We've got an inspector here who has a lot of
experience. If anybody can tell you what to expect, he can." She
routed my call after I thanked her.

The man I spoke to next was candid and down to earth. "Don't worry
about the required response date. I can tell you right now, the FAA is
so backed up with these things that they're not going to care if you're
a day or two late." Sounds good, I said, but unless you give me that in
writing, I'm not going to relax. Should I call the Region?

"Not a good idea. You're probably not going to get anywhere with them.
But I tell you what. You've got five options to respond with, right?
Tell them you want an informal hearing. I've been to dozens of these
things. You can explain the situation again. They probably won't drop
the penalty but they'll cut it in half."

Sounded good to me. I thanked the inspector and waited for the lawyer
to call back.

The lawyer was a bit scary (do they learn those tactics in school?).
First, he wanted to know about the letters and my talk with the FSDO
people. "Don't worry about the date in the letter- you've got three
weeks from *the date you were served* - that's the law. The post office
recorded the date you picked up the letter." Phew. That was a relief.

He was alarmed that I had called the FAA. "Remember, you talk to me,
it's private and confidential. You talk to them, they can use anything
you say against you." I know. Christ, I'm not on trial for murder
here. He backed off a bit and told me that the FAA is definitely *not*
the enemy here. Those people are not at all pleased about supporting
multiple defense zones inside the country's borders.

Anyway, I told him about my conversation with the safety inspector and
he said, "Well, they gave you the exact same advice I would have.
Informal hearing is the way to go. Do it over the telephone. What did
you file in your initial report?"

I told him about my report. "Well, you've already confessed. But an
informal hearing will help you. What you really want is to get the
charge of 'reckless and dangerous operation' removed from the record."
I hadn't thought about that. In fact, I'd hardly noticed it in the
paperwork but there it was. I had endangered myself and the lives of
others by subjecting myself to possible military action.

So, I'm looking forward to my meeting with the FAA. Although I made a
mistake, I certainly don't think I was being careless or reckless. I
was disoriented, but I was flying the airplane. I don't believe for a
second that an interception would have resulted in a shoot-down,
therefore I can't accept the charge of endangerment. We'll see what
happens -- and whether or not I'll be calling that lawyer back!

I suppose by writing all of this, some of you will again admonish me for
providing details before the case is settled. That's fine and I
appreciate the warning. If this note comes back to bite me... well then
I'm a fool again. But it's a small enough event that it doesn't hurt to
let you know what the deal is.

What I really want to do know is get back in the saddle and get back up
there. Thanks for your support.

--Scott

[Peter Gottlieb]

"Scott Lowrey" > wrote in message
news:YyaWc.24539$9d6.23195@attbi_s54...
> I suppose by writing all of this, some of you will again admonish me for
> providing details before the case is settled. That's fine and I
> appreciate the warning. If this note comes back to bite me... well then
> I'm a fool again. But it's a small enough event that it doesn't hurt to
> let you know what the deal is.
>

You've spoken to AOPA, to a lawyer, and to the FAA and seem to be dealing
with this in a honest, straightforward manner. No admonishment from me,
quite the contrary, I appreciate your telling of your story as it is
valuable information to all of us as to how the system works in real life.

Peter

[JJS]

Scott,

Thanks for relating your experience. Please inform us of the
final outcome.

Joe Schneider
Cherokee 8437R

"Scott Lowrey" > wrote in message
news:YyaWc.24539$9d6.23195@attbi_s54...
> Thanks, everyone, for responding -- including those who told me to
shut
> up and those who said, "Suck it up." :) For the most part, you've
all
> encouraged me to stop whining and get on with flying.
>
> So, first let me respond to some of the advice I was given.
>
> First, it *is* good advice to discuss these things only with an
attorney
> *if* you haven't already confessed in your report to the FAA. I
> "confessed" in my initial report to the FAA because they asked me
what
> happened. I had no problem accepting responsibility and I still
don't.
> But, if there's a "next time", I might be a little wiser in my ways.
>
> Second: file a NASA ASRS report at http://asrs.arc.nasa.gov/
> immediately. These reports, if filed within 10 days of the
incident,
> will get you an FAA waiver. No penalty -- the first time around. I
> don't know if this applies to all types of incidents (doubt it) but
it
> *will* get you off the hook for an unauthorized ADIZ excursion.
>
> Third: join the AOPA Legal Services plan now. It's worth $26 per
year.
> I joined after the incident, so I was only entitled to a free half
> hour consultation with an AOPA-recommended attorney. If I end up
> requiring the services of that attorney, I'll be paying $175 per
hour
> out-of-pocket. For me, however, the half hour consultation provided
me
> with enough education and advice to justify the 26 bucks. I doubt
that
> I'll have any problems going this one alone.
>
> Now, I'll tell you what happened after I started getting responses
to my
> Usenet posting.
>
> I called AOPA. I was quickly passed to the right people and
provided
> with the name of an attorney in my area. I left a message on his
voice
> mail. My main concern was one of time. The certified letter
proposing
> a 30-day suspension of my ticket was three weeks late in arriving.
It
> said I had to respond by August 21 or "default", meaning I'd
accepted
> the proposal and would be mailing in my shiny new certificate.
>
> I decided to call the FAA to ask them about the date. I had no idea
> where to start, so I simply called the Washington FSDO. These
people
> were *extremely* pleasant and helpful. The first person who
answered
> the phone got right to the point: where did you get this letter?
Who
> signed it?
>
> When I mentioned the Regional Counsel's signature, she said, "OK,
that's
> over our heads - we're a district office within the Eastern
Region.
> Who was the safety inspector you sent your initial report to?" She
was
> not familiar with the name I gave.
>
> "Tell you what. We've got an inspector here who has a lot of
> experience. If anybody can tell you what to expect, he can." She
> routed my call after I thanked her.
>
> The man I spoke to next was candid and down to earth. "Don't worry
> about the required response date. I can tell you right now, the FAA
is
> so backed up with these things that they're not going to care if
you're
> a day or two late." Sounds good, I said, but unless you give me
that in
> writing, I'm not going to relax. Should I call the Region?
>
> "Not a good idea. You're probably not going to get anywhere with
them.
> But I tell you what. You've got five options to respond with,
right?
> Tell them you want an informal hearing. I've been to dozens of
these
> things. You can explain the situation again. They probably won't
drop
> the penalty but they'll cut it in half."
>
> Sounded good to me. I thanked the inspector and waited for the
lawyer
> to call back.
>
> The lawyer was a bit scary (do they learn those tactics in school?).
> First, he wanted to know about the letters and my talk with the FSDO
> people. "Don't worry about the date in the letter- you've got three
> weeks from *the date you were served* - that's the law. The post
office
> recorded the date you picked up the letter." Phew. That was a
relief.
>
> He was alarmed that I had called the FAA. "Remember, you talk to
me,
> it's private and confidential. You talk to them, they can use
anything
> you say against you." I know. Christ, I'm not on trial for murder
> here. He backed off a bit and told me that the FAA is definitely
*not*
> the enemy here. Those people are not at all pleased about
supporting
> multiple defense zones inside the country's borders.
>
> Anyway, I told him about my conversation with the safety inspector
and
> he said, "Well, they gave you the exact same advice I would have.
> Informal hearing is the way to go. Do it over the telephone. What
did
> you file in your initial report?"
>
> I told him about my report. "Well, you've already confessed. But
an
> informal hearing will help you. What you really want is to get the
> charge of 'reckless and dangerous operation' removed from the
record."
> I hadn't thought about that. In fact, I'd hardly noticed it in the
> paperwork but there it was. I had endangered myself and the lives
of
> others by subjecting myself to possible military action.
>
> So, I'm looking forward to my meeting with the FAA. Although I made
a
> mistake, I certainly don't think I was being careless or reckless.
I
> was disoriented, but I was flying the airplane. I don't believe for
a
> second that an interception would have resulted in a shoot-down,
> therefore I can't accept the charge of endangerment. We'll see what
> happens -- and whether or not I'll be calling that lawyer back!
>
> I suppose by writing all of this, some of you will again admonish me
for
> providing details before the case is settled. That's fine and I
> appreciate the warning. If this note comes back to bite me... well
then
> I'm a fool again. But it's a small enough event that it doesn't
hurt to
> let you know what the deal is.
>
> What I really want to do know is get back in the saddle and get back
up
> there. Thanks for your support.
>
> --Scott

[Richard Russell]

On Mon, 23 Aug 2004 00:07:20 GMT, Scott Lowrey >
wrote:

>Thanks, everyone, for responding -- including those who told me to shut
>up and those who said, "Suck it up." :) For the most part, you've all
>encouraged me to stop whining and get on with flying.
>
>So, first let me respond to some of the advice I was given.
>
>First, it *is* good advice to discuss these things only with an attorney
>*if* you haven't already confessed in your report to the FAA. I
>"confessed" in my initial report to the FAA because they asked me what
>happened. I had no problem accepting responsibility and I still don't.
>But, if there's a "next time", I might be a little wiser in my ways.
>
snipped a story that could happen to any of us.....

All I can say is that it is darn refreshing to hear someone take
responsibility for their mistakes instead of blaming everyone within
50 miles of them. Congratulations for being a man and I hope it works
out for you with a minimum penalty.

Rich Russell

[Mike Rapoport]

If I were you, I would see if sending your certificate in today would start
the clock running on the 30 days. If you are truly not flying very much
then 30 days is no big deal.

Mike
MU-2


"Scott Lowrey" > wrote in message
news:YyaWc.24539$9d6.23195@attbi_s54...
> Thanks, everyone, for responding -- including those who told me to shut
> up and those who said, "Suck it up." :) For the most part, you've all
> encouraged me to stop whining and get on with flying.
>
> So, first let me respond to some of the advice I was given.
>
> First, it *is* good advice to discuss these things only with an attorney
> *if* you haven't already confessed in your report to the FAA. I
> "confessed" in my initial report to the FAA because they asked me what
> happened. I had no problem accepting responsibility and I still don't.
> But, if there's a "next time", I might be a little wiser in my ways.
>
> Second: file a NASA ASRS report at http://asrs.arc.nasa.gov/
> immediately. These reports, if filed within 10 days of the incident,
> will get you an FAA waiver. No penalty -- the first time around. I
> don't know if this applies to all types of incidents (doubt it) but it
> *will* get you off the hook for an unauthorized ADIZ excursion.
>
> Third: join the AOPA Legal Services plan now. It's worth $26 per year.
> I joined after the incident, so I was only entitled to a free half
> hour consultation with an AOPA-recommended attorney. If I end up
> requiring the services of that attorney, I'll be paying $175 per hour
> out-of-pocket. For me, however, the half hour consultation provided me
> with enough education and advice to justify the 26 bucks. I doubt that
> I'll have any problems going this one alone.
>
> Now, I'll tell you what happened after I started getting responses to my
> Usenet posting.
>
> I called AOPA. I was quickly passed to the right people and provided
> with the name of an attorney in my area. I left a message on his voice
> mail. My main concern was one of time. The certified letter proposing
> a 30-day suspension of my ticket was three weeks late in arriving. It
> said I had to respond by August 21 or "default", meaning I'd accepted
> the proposal and would be mailing in my shiny new certificate.
>
> I decided to call the FAA to ask them about the date. I had no idea
> where to start, so I simply called the Washington FSDO. These people
> were *extremely* pleasant and helpful. The first person who answered
> the phone got right to the point: where did you get this letter? Who
> signed it?
>
> When I mentioned the Regional Counsel's signature, she said, "OK, that's
> over our heads - we're a district office within the Eastern Region.
> Who was the safety inspector you sent your initial report to?" She was
> not familiar with the name I gave.
>
> "Tell you what. We've got an inspector here who has a lot of
> experience. If anybody can tell you what to expect, he can." She
> routed my call after I thanked her.
>
> The man I spoke to next was candid and down to earth. "Don't worry
> about the required response date. I can tell you right now, the FAA is
> so backed up with these things that they're not going to care if you're
> a day or two late." Sounds good, I said, but unless you give me that in
> writing, I'm not going to relax. Should I call the Region?
>
> "Not a good idea. You're probably not going to get anywhere with them.
> But I tell you what. You've got five options to respond with, right?
> Tell them you want an informal hearing. I've been to dozens of these
> things. You can explain the situation again. They probably won't drop
> the penalty but they'll cut it in half."
>
> Sounded good to me. I thanked the inspector and waited for the lawyer
> to call back.
>
> The lawyer was a bit scary (do they learn those tactics in school?).
> First, he wanted to know about the letters and my talk with the FSDO
> people. "Don't worry about the date in the letter- you've got three
> weeks from *the date you were served* - that's the law. The post office
> recorded the date you picked up the letter." Phew. That was a relief.
>
> He was alarmed that I had called the FAA. "Remember, you talk to me,
> it's private and confidential. You talk to them, they can use anything
> you say against you." I know. Christ, I'm not on trial for murder
> here. He backed off a bit and told me that the FAA is definitely *not*
> the enemy here. Those people are not at all pleased about supporting
> multiple defense zones inside the country's borders.
>
> Anyway, I told him about my conversation with the safety inspector and
> he said, "Well, they gave you the exact same advice I would have.
> Informal hearing is the way to go. Do it over the telephone. What did
> you file in your initial report?"
>
> I told him about my report. "Well, you've already confessed. But an
> informal hearing will help you. What you really want is to get the
> charge of 'reckless and dangerous operation' removed from the record."
> I hadn't thought about that. In fact, I'd hardly noticed it in the
> paperwork but there it was. I had endangered myself and the lives of
> others by subjecting myself to possible military action.
>
> So, I'm looking forward to my meeting with the FAA. Although I made a
> mistake, I certainly don't think I was being careless or reckless. I
> was disoriented, but I was flying the airplane. I don't believe for a
> second that an interception would have resulted in a shoot-down,
> therefore I can't accept the charge of endangerment. We'll see what
> happens -- and whether or not I'll be calling that lawyer back!
>
> I suppose by writing all of this, some of you will again admonish me for
> providing details before the case is settled. That's fine and I
> appreciate the warning. If this note comes back to bite me... well then
> I'm a fool again. But it's a small enough event that it doesn't hurt to
> let you know what the deal is.
>
> What I really want to do know is get back in the saddle and get back up
> there. Thanks for your support.
>
> --Scott

[zatatime]

On Mon, 23 Aug 2004 00:07:20 GMT, Scott Lowrey >
wrote:

>Thanks, everyone, for responding


Glad to hear you're "making progress," and better yet that you found
out you still want to fly!

Good luck with the final outcome.

z

[Jay Beckman]

"Scott Lowrey" > wrote in message
news:YyaWc.24539$9d6.23195@attbi_s54...
> Thanks, everyone, for responding -- including those who told me to shut up
> and those who said, "Suck it up." :) For the most part, you've all
> encouraged me to stop whining and get on with flying.

<SNIP>

>
> What I really want to do know is get back in the saddle and get back up
> there. Thanks for your support.
>
> --Scott

Scott,

Good luck and I hope your honesty gets rewarded.

Nice to see someone who can step up, fess up and move on.

Please let us know how things progress.

Regards,

Jay Beckman
Student Pilot - KCHD
43.8 Hrs ... Nowhere to go but up!