Pilot-in-command question...

[Tom Kreyche]

After looking online and in the FARs, I still can't see a definite answer
for the following question:

Let's say two pilots are flying together in an aircraft, and the aircraft
doesn't require more than one pilot and it's not a commercial aircraft. If
the pilots alternate flying the aircraft by handing off the controls to the
other person, do they also alternate pilot-in-command responsibilites?

The FAR/AIM defines PIC as: 1) has final authority and responsibility for
the operation and safety of the flight, 2) has been designated as pilot in
command before or during the flight.

Part 61.51(c) says a person can only log pilot-in-command time while being
"the sole manipulator of the controls."

Obviously it's OK to hand over PIC during the flight. It also seems that by
definition if you hand off the controls to the other person, whether you're
reading a map or taking a nap--you just handed over PIC responsibility and
you can't log that time. Things get a lot more complicated when the aircraft
requires more than one pilot, but I'm not talking about that and I'm not
talking about instructors either.

On a slightly different topic, is it legal by FAA standards to let a
passenger take the controls of an aircraft?

thanks, Tom Kreyche N21TK

[BTIZ]

as far as PIC.. I think you answered your own question..
Logging PIC, need to be "designated" or sole manipulator.

So.. doing hood work, the pilot flying under the hood is sole manipulator
and logs PIC
The "safety pilot" is deemed PIC to ensure the safety of the flight by
mutual agreement, and log's PIC for the time the other pilot is under the
hood. A second qualified pilot is required for hood work.

If you are on a long cross country and need to take a nap, designate the
other pilot PIC, give him the controls and he logs PIC.

as far as passengers taking controls.. I do not believe there is anything in
the FARs that say it's "ok" or that say it is not ok... you are PIC and
responsible for their safety.. you decide.

be surprised how many "passengers" start taking lessons after their pilot
let them fly for a while

BT

"Tom Kreyche" > wrote in message
news:fIUVc.298737$%_6.263229@attbi_s01...
> After looking online and in the FARs, I still can't see a definite answer
> for the following question:
>
> Let's say two pilots are flying together in an aircraft, and the aircraft
> doesn't require more than one pilot and it's not a commercial aircraft. If
> the pilots alternate flying the aircraft by handing off the controls to
the
> other person, do they also alternate pilot-in-command responsibilites?
>
> The FAR/AIM defines PIC as: 1) has final authority and responsibility for
> the operation and safety of the flight, 2) has been designated as pilot in
> command before or during the flight.
>
> Part 61.51(c) says a person can only log pilot-in-command time while being
> "the sole manipulator of the controls."
>
> Obviously it's OK to hand over PIC during the flight. It also seems that
by
> definition if you hand off the controls to the other person, whether
you're
> reading a map or taking a nap--you just handed over PIC responsibility and
> you can't log that time. Things get a lot more complicated when the
aircraft
> requires more than one pilot, but I'm not talking about that and I'm not
> talking about instructors either.
>
> On a slightly different topic, is it legal by FAA standards to let a
> passenger take the controls of an aircraft?
>
> thanks, Tom Kreyche N21TK
>
>

[C J Campbell]

"Tom Kreyche" > wrote in message
news:fIUVc.298737$%_6.263229@attbi_s01...
> After looking online and in the FARs, I still can't see a definite answer
> for the following question:
>
> Let's say two pilots are flying together in an aircraft, and the aircraft
> doesn't require more than one pilot and it's not a commercial aircraft. If
> the pilots alternate flying the aircraft by handing off the controls to
the
> other person, do they also alternate pilot-in-command responsibilites?
>

Only if they wish to do that. However, the FAA has held some pilots to be
the actual pilot in command even when those pilots were not sitting in a
crewmember seat.

> The FAR/AIM defines PIC as: 1) has final authority and responsibility for
> the operation and safety of the flight, 2) has been designated as pilot in
> command before or during the flight.
>
> Part 61.51(c) says a person can only log pilot-in-command time while being
> "the sole manipulator of the controls."

No it does not. It also allows you to log PIC when you are acting as PIC on
an aircraft or during operations requiring more than one pilot and while you
are giving instruction as a flight instructor. A typical example is
simulated instrument practice, where one pilot is logging PIC while flying
the airplane under the hood and the safety pilot is logging PIC because he
is acting as PIC during an operation requiring more than one pilot. Note
that there is no requirement that you be able to act as PIC while you log
PIC. Multiple pilots may be able to log PIC simultaneously, but only one may
act as PIC.

>
> Obviously it's OK to hand over PIC during the flight. It also seems that
by
> definition if you hand off the controls to the other person, whether
you're
> reading a map or taking a nap--you just handed over PIC responsibility and
> you can't log that time.

Completely untrue. You have not necessarily handed over PIC responsibility
even if you are taking a nap. In fact there is a rather notorious case in
which an ATP was napping in the back seat of a small plane and the FAA held
him to be acting PIC even though all the pilots on the plane had previously
agreed that another individual would act as PIC for the flight. Neither does
acting as PIC necessarily mean that you can log PIC. Logging PIC and acting
PIC are entirely two different things that correspond with each other only
part of the time.


Things get a lot more complicated when the aircraft
> requires more than one pilot, but I'm not talking about that and I'm not
> talking about instructors either.
>
> On a slightly different topic, is it legal by FAA standards to let a
> passenger take the controls of an aircraft?
>

Of course it is. A pilot may let anyone he wants fly the airplane provided
the flight is not being conducted under certain commercial rules involving
the carrying of passengers or property for hire and the passenger is not
sick or intoxicated or otherwise recklessly and carelessly jeopardizes the
life or property of another. Any pilot may also give a passenger instruction
and sometimes it is a very good idea. However, the instruction does not
count towards a certificate or rating unless that particular class of
aircraft does not have an instructor certificate (blimps, for example, have
no instructors; instruction is given by commercial blimp pilots). There is
also no regulation against a private pilot logging dual given when he gives
instruction to a passenger. In fact, there is no regulation defining the
logging of dual given. It is solely up to the judgment of the pilot whether
to let a non-pilot take the controls. The pilot is still the acting PIC and
is responsible for everything that happens on the airplane.

> thanks, Tom Kreyche N21TK
>
>

[Tom Kreyche]

Thanks for the opinion, but where exactly is this supported in the FARs?

It may be that Part 61.51(c) only discusses PIC in the context of logging
time,
but I don't see any other sections that discuss it except under airline
transport
when the aircraft requires more than one pilot.

thanks, Tom


>
> >
> > Obviously it's OK to hand over PIC during the flight. It also seems that
> by
> > definition if you hand off the controls to the other person, whether
> you're
> > reading a map or taking a nap--you just handed over PIC responsibility
and
> > you can't log that time.
>
> Completely untrue. You have not necessarily handed over PIC responsibility
> even if you are taking a nap. In fact there is a rather notorious case in
> which an ATP was napping in the back seat of a small plane and the FAA
held
> him to be acting PIC even though all the pilots on the plane had
previously
> agreed that another individual would act as PIC for the flight. Neither
does
> acting as PIC necessarily mean that you can log PIC. Logging PIC and
acting
> PIC are entirely two different things that correspond with each other only
> part of the time.
>

[Hilton]

Tom,

Assuming two current etc etc etc pilots, flying in VFR conditions, neither
under the hood, both qualified to act as PIC...

One (and only one pilot) chooses to ACT as PIC.

The pilot manipulating the controls logs the time.

Example 1: Pilot A is PIC, pilot B flies the entire flight. Pilot A logs
nothing, Pilot B logs it all.

Example 2: Pilot A is PIC, they share the flying time - both pilots log half
the time.

Hilton

[C J Campbell]

"Tom Kreyche" > wrote in message
news:9EWVc.165951$8_6.161417@attbi_s04...
> Thanks for the opinion, but where exactly is this supported in the FARs?
>
> It may be that Part 61.51(c) only discusses PIC in the context of logging
> time,
> but I don't see any other sections that discuss it except under airline
> transport
> when the aircraft requires more than one pilot.

FAR 1.1 defines pilot in command and the duties of the pilot in command,
while 61.51 says who may log pilot in command. Reading the two will show you
that they are quite different in concept. FAR 1.1 says:

Pilot in command means the person who:

(1) Has final authority and responsibility for the operation and safety of
the flight;

(2) Has been designated as pilot in command before or during the flight; and

(3) Holds the appropriate category, class, and type rating, if appropriate,
for the conduct of the flight.


Numerous other regulations define who may act as pilot in command of
different types of aircraft or during different operations. None of those
regulations address logging pilot in command. 61.51, then, tells you when
you may log pilot in command, while all of the other regulations tell you
about acting as pilot in command. The FAA does this intentionally.

Notice that in order to be pilot in command you do not even have to be on
board the aircraft! You simply must be the person who has final authority
and responsibility for the operation and safety of the flight. You could be
pilot in command of several drones, each of which is being operated by a
different individual. Similarly, flight instructors could be held to be
acting as pilot in command while their students solo, even though those
students are logging the time as PIC. Just because a solo student may log
PIC does not mean that he is PIC and woe to the instructor that forgets
that. That business about "supervised solo" has some real teeth to back it
up.

Nevertheless, the FAA recognized that there is a qualitative difference
between actually flying an airplane and watching somebody else do it, so
they only allow (with some exceptions) the pilot manipulating the controls
to log PIC. The regulations would be far less confusing if the FAA had
adopted the convention used by many airlines and instead had you log time as
"pilot flying" as opposed to "pilot in command."

[john smith]

Hilton wrote:
> Assuming two current etc etc etc pilots, flying in VFR conditions, neither
> under the hood, both qualified to act as PIC...
> One (and only one pilot) chooses to ACT as PIC.
> The pilot manipulating the controls logs the time.

And as the late author Martin Caidin once wrote, when the FAA asks who
was flying, the two pilots point to each other, and since two pilots
cannot simultaneously be PIC, there is nothing they can do about it.

[Bob Gardner]

I have handed over the controls to a large number of school kids...nothing
in the FARs says I can't. I have also given up the right seat in a corporate
jet so that one of the bigwigs on board could take my place and, under the
supervision of the PIC, get a feel for the controls.

Bob Gardner

"Tom Kreyche" > wrote in message
news:fIUVc.298737$%_6.263229@attbi_s01...
> After looking online and in the FARs, I still can't see a definite answer
> for the following question:
>
> Let's say two pilots are flying together in an aircraft, and the aircraft
> doesn't require more than one pilot and it's not a commercial aircraft. If
> the pilots alternate flying the aircraft by handing off the controls to
the
> other person, do they also alternate pilot-in-command responsibilites?
>
> The FAR/AIM defines PIC as: 1) has final authority and responsibility for
> the operation and safety of the flight, 2) has been designated as pilot in
> command before or during the flight.
>
> Part 61.51(c) says a person can only log pilot-in-command time while being
> "the sole manipulator of the controls."
>
> Obviously it's OK to hand over PIC during the flight. It also seems that
by
> definition if you hand off the controls to the other person, whether
you're
> reading a map or taking a nap--you just handed over PIC responsibility and
> you can't log that time. Things get a lot more complicated when the
aircraft
> requires more than one pilot, but I'm not talking about that and I'm not
> talking about instructors either.
>
> On a slightly different topic, is it legal by FAA standards to let a
> passenger take the controls of an aircraft?
>
> thanks, Tom Kreyche N21TK
>
>