It all depends on what the definition of "cloud" is...

[Geoffrey Barnes]

I'm clear on how far away I have to stay from clouds during VFR flight, and
I thought I knew a cloud when I saw one, but...

I took my brother-in-law up for his birthday yesterday morning. It was
pretty darn cool for late August, and all the river valleys were filled with
fog. In fact, several nearby fields were reporting near zero visibilities.
But my home airport, which sits on the top of a hill, was reporting sky
clear and visibility greater than 10 miles. He wasn't interested in seeing
anything special, so we just took off, did a quick turn around the city, and
came back into the pattern for a few touch and goes.

The tower cleared us straight in for the first one. As I entered downwind
for the next one, though, they told me to extend my downwind and that I was
#2 behind a Citation on an 8 mile final. This normally wouldn't be a big
deal at all, but the downwind leg that I was on passes directly over a steel
plant, which (like most steel mils) sits right along a river. All of the
natural fog from the river itself was safely down in the valley, well below
the airport. But the steel plant was throwing up this huge amount of vapor
which extended well above pattern altitude.

I'm guessing this counts as a "cloud", right? I mean, I couldn't see
through it. I don't know what the visibility would have been like inside of
it, and I'm fairly sure that I would have been through it and out the other
side in a matter of seconds, but it seemed to me that I should stay clear of
it. I reduced my speed a bit to keep my extended downwind from getting too
close to the steel mill, and began to think of a plan that would keep the
tower happy and me in legal VFR conditions. I was just about to ask to do a
360 in place when the Citation came over the numbers and the tower cleared
me to turn base.

At that point, I asked to switch from touch-and-go to full stop, mostly
because I didn't want to get caught facing that vapor cloud again. In
hidsight, I suppose I could have asked to fly right traffic instead of left.
There was nobody else in the pattern, and I don't think the tower
controllers would have cared. But I didn't think of that at the time, and I
wasn't convinced that I could stay legal if someone in authority decided
that pillar of vapor coming from the steel plant constituted a "cloud". So
I just landed and cut the flight short.

So was it a cloud or not?


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[Maule Driver]

It's a cloud.

It's really just as simple as deciding how you will stay outside of it, do
it, and inform the tower. If they are giving you instructions that take you
thru the cloud - "unable" is the key word along with a simple reason and the
alternate plan of action you intend to take.

What's a cloud - if you can't see thru it, it's a cloud (?)_

"Geoffrey Barnes" > wrote in message
ink.net...
> I'm clear on how far away I have to stay from clouds during VFR flight,
and
> I thought I knew a cloud when I saw one, but...
>
> I took my brother-in-law up for his birthday yesterday morning. It was
> pretty darn cool for late August, and all the river valleys were filled
with
> fog. In fact, several nearby fields were reporting near zero
visibilities.
> But my home airport, which sits on the top of a hill, was reporting sky
> clear and visibility greater than 10 miles. He wasn't interested in
seeing
> anything special, so we just took off, did a quick turn around the city,
and
> came back into the pattern for a few touch and goes.
>
> The tower cleared us straight in for the first one. As I entered downwind
> for the next one, though, they told me to extend my downwind and that I
was
> #2 behind a Citation on an 8 mile final. This normally wouldn't be a big
> deal at all, but the downwind leg that I was on passes directly over a
steel
> plant, which (like most steel mils) sits right along a river. All of the
> natural fog from the river itself was safely down in the valley, well
below
> the airport. But the steel plant was throwing up this huge amount of
vapor
> which extended well above pattern altitude.
>
> I'm guessing this counts as a "cloud", right? I mean, I couldn't see
> through it. I don't know what the visibility would have been like inside
of
> it, and I'm fairly sure that I would have been through it and out the
other
> side in a matter of seconds, but it seemed to me that I should stay clear
of
> it. I reduced my speed a bit to keep my extended downwind from getting
too
> close to the steel mill, and began to think of a plan that would keep the
> tower happy and me in legal VFR conditions. I was just about to ask to do
a
> 360 in place when the Citation came over the numbers and the tower cleared
> me to turn base.
>
> At that point, I asked to switch from touch-and-go to full stop, mostly
> because I didn't want to get caught facing that vapor cloud again. In
> hidsight, I suppose I could have asked to fly right traffic instead of
left.
> There was nobody else in the pattern, and I don't think the tower
> controllers would have cared. But I didn't think of that at the time, and
I
> wasn't convinced that I could stay legal if someone in authority decided
> that pillar of vapor coming from the steel plant constituted a "cloud".
So
> I just landed and cut the flight short.
>
> So was it a cloud or not?
>
>
> ---
> Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
> Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
> Version: 6.0.742 / Virus Database: 495 - Release Date: 8/19/2004
>
>

[Larry Dighera]

On Mon, 23 Aug 2004 20:30:54 GMT, "Geoffrey Barnes"
> wrote in
et>::

>I'm clear on how far away I have to stay from clouds during VFR flight, and
>I thought I knew a cloud when I saw one, but...

Cloud is not defined in:

Title 14--Aeronautics and Space

CHAPTER I--FEDERAL AVIATION ADMINISTRATION, DEPARTMENT OF
TRANSPORTATION

SUBCHAPTER A--DEFINITIONS

PART 1--DEFINITIONS AND ABBREVIATIONS


http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/text/text-idx?c=ecfr&sid=a3a1c15b152e80331cd4b7d8a9411b5c&rgn=div8&view=text&node=14:1.0.1.1.1.0.1.1&idno=14


However the Pilot/Controller Glossary contains this definition:
http://www.faa.gov/ATpubs/PCG/C.HTM

CLOUD- A cloud is a visible accumulation of minute water droplets
and/or ice particles in the atmosphere above the Earth's surface.
Cloud differs from ground fog, fog, or ice fog only in that the
latter are, by definition, in contact with the Earth's surface.

So a cloud is fog that is not in contact with the Earth's surface.
Unfortunately, 'fog' is not defined in that document nor Part 1.

[Stefan]

Larry Dighera wrote:

> So a cloud is fog that is not in contact with the Earth's surface.

Good to know, this will come handy the next time I'll fly in the
mountains. No danger to enter a cumulus, as a cumulus is clearly a cloud
and as such, by definition, not in contact with the earth. So there
can't be a mountain inside.

Stefan

[SFM]

When you let the tower know you are maneuver, which IMHO is the right thing
to do, tell them so and that you are doing it to remain VFR.

Scott

--
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MI-150972
PP-ASEL-IA

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-------------------------------------
"Maule Driver" > wrote in message
m...
> It's a cloud.
>
> It's really just as simple as deciding how you will stay outside of it, do
> it, and inform the tower. If they are giving you instructions that take
you
> thru the cloud - "unable" is the key word along with a simple reason and
the
> alternate plan of action you intend to take.
>
> What's a cloud - if you can't see thru it, it's a cloud (?)_
>
> "Geoffrey Barnes" > wrote in message
> ink.net...
> > I'm clear on how far away I have to stay from clouds during VFR flight,
> and
> > I thought I knew a cloud when I saw one, but...
> >
> > I took my brother-in-law up for his birthday yesterday morning. It was
> > pretty darn cool for late August, and all the river valleys were filled
> with
> > fog. In fact, several nearby fields were reporting near zero
> visibilities.
> > But my home airport, which sits on the top of a hill, was reporting sky
> > clear and visibility greater than 10 miles. He wasn't interested in
> seeing
> > anything special, so we just took off, did a quick turn around the city,
> and
> > came back into the pattern for a few touch and goes.
> >
> > The tower cleared us straight in for the first one. As I entered
downwind
> > for the next one, though, they told me to extend my downwind and that I
> was
> > #2 behind a Citation on an 8 mile final. This normally wouldn't be a
big
> > deal at all, but the downwind leg that I was on passes directly over a
> steel
> > plant, which (like most steel mils) sits right along a river. All of
the
> > natural fog from the river itself was safely down in the valley, well
> below
> > the airport. But the steel plant was throwing up this huge amount of
> vapor
> > which extended well above pattern altitude.
> >
> > I'm guessing this counts as a "cloud", right? I mean, I couldn't see
> > through it. I don't know what the visibility would have been like
inside
> of
> > it, and I'm fairly sure that I would have been through it and out the
> other
> > side in a matter of seconds, but it seemed to me that I should stay
clear
> of
> > it. I reduced my speed a bit to keep my extended downwind from getting
> too
> > close to the steel mill, and began to think of a plan that would keep
the
> > tower happy and me in legal VFR conditions. I was just about to ask to
do
> a
> > 360 in place when the Citation came over the numbers and the tower
cleared
> > me to turn base.
> >
> > At that point, I asked to switch from touch-and-go to full stop, mostly
> > because I didn't want to get caught facing that vapor cloud again. In
> > hidsight, I suppose I could have asked to fly right traffic instead of
> left.
> > There was nobody else in the pattern, and I don't think the tower
> > controllers would have cared. But I didn't think of that at the time,
and
> I
> > wasn't convinced that I could stay legal if someone in authority decided
> > that pillar of vapor coming from the steel plant constituted a "cloud".
> So
> > I just landed and cut the flight short.
> >
> > So was it a cloud or not?
> >
> >
> > ---
> > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
> > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
> > Version: 6.0.742 / Virus Database: 495 - Release Date: 8/19/2004
> >
> >
>
>

[Icebound]

--
*** A great civilization is not conquered from without, until it has
destroyed itself from within. ***
--- Ariel Durant 1898-1981

"Stefan" > wrote in message
...
> Larry Dighera wrote:
>
> > So a cloud is fog that is not in contact with the Earth's surface.
>
> Good to know, this will come handy the next time I'll fly in the
> mountains. No danger to enter a cumulus, as a cumulus is clearly a cloud
> and as such, by definition, not in contact with the earth. So there
> can't be a mountain inside.
>

LOL... well, the problem will only develop when the cumulus was not formed
TOTALLY by classic cumulo-forming-bubble-rising mechanisms. Like, lets say
there is a little bit of upslope flow involved, and the other side of your
CU is flat against the 45-degree terrain which IS the "upslope". The trees
on that slope on the other side of the CU are, technically, in fog, but you
won't know that.....or care very much, in just a few minutes.....

[Larry Dighera]

On Tue, 24 Aug 2004 00:54:10 +0200, Stefan >
wrote in >::

>Larry Dighera wrote:
>
>> So a cloud is fog that is not in contact with the Earth's surface.
>
>Good to know, this will come handy the next time I'll fly in the
>mountains. No danger to enter a cumulus, as a cumulus is clearly a cloud
>and as such, by definition, not in contact with the earth. So there
>can't be a mountain inside.
>
>Stefan


LOL. Well, what's your definition of a cloud?

[Stefan]

Larry Dighera wrote:

> LOL. Well, what's your definition of a cloud?

Hve you ever tried to define what a dog is, in a purely abstract, yet
unequivocal way, and how it can be disdinguished at first sight from,
say, a cat or a hamster? With a definition that holds for all kinds,
forms and sizes of dogs? Yet if you see one, you recognize it.

Stefan

[gatt]

"Geoffrey Barnes" > wrote in message news:2usWc.1623$Y%3

< But I didn't think of that at the time, and I
> wasn't convinced that I could stay legal if someone in authority decided
> that pillar of vapor coming from the steel plant constituted a "cloud".

I don't know, but during my PPL training, pre-solo departing Troutdale, OR,
we flew through a papermill steam cloud over Camas, WA. Instant karma; had
us both gagging.

-c

[Roger Halstead]

On Wed, 25 Aug 2004 13:28:11 -0700, "gatt"
> wrote:

>
>"Geoffrey Barnes" > wrote in message news:2usWc.1623$Y%3
>
>< But I didn't think of that at the time, and I
>> wasn't convinced that I could stay legal if someone in authority decided
>> that pillar of vapor coming from the steel plant constituted a "cloud".
>
>I don't know, but during my PPL training, pre-solo departing Troutdale, OR,
>we flew through a papermill steam cloud over Camas, WA. Instant karma; had
>us both gagging.
>
It's just steam from one of those places that make the clean white
paper. Breathe deep now! <:-))

I was out fishing near the north end of a small lake (couple square
miles) that had a paper mill on the south end. The wind changed and I
found myself straight down wind from the mill. Whew!
They do use a lot of sulphur in paper manufacturing.
Good old Hydrogen Sulphide.

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com
>-c
>

[C Kingsbury]

"Geoffrey Barnes" > wrote in message et>...

> I'm clear on how far away I have to stay from clouds during VFR flight

Are you 300' away from that cloud or 400' away? What, you can't say?
Then you shouldn't be flying VFR! That's why I decided to get an
instrument rating. (j/k!)

> I'm guessing this counts as a "cloud", right? I mean, I couldn't see
> through it.

That's my rule. If I can't see what's inside it, I don't try flying
through it. Also applies well to mountains and birds.

> it. I reduced my speed a bit to keep my extended downwind from getting too
> close to the steel mill, and began to think of a plan that would keep the
> tower happy and me in legal VFR conditions. I was just about to ask to do a
> 360 in place when the Citation came over the numbers and the tower cleared
> me to turn base.

On an 8-mile downwind you're practically in the enroute phase of
flight. In Class D you're not even in the tower's airspace anymore.
Widen out around, pinch in, or do the 360, whatever seems to make
sense to you. If you know you;re the only one in the pattern just do
it and give a courtesy call so the tower knows. If it's busy just give
a shout and say, "waddaya want?" and they'll tell you.

> At that point, I asked to switch from touch-and-go to full stop, mostly
> because I didn't want to get caught facing that vapor cloud again.

<imagining a 50s-style scifi movie, "Attack of the Vapor Cloud!"/>

> There was nobody else in the pattern, and I don't think the tower
> controllers would have cared. But I didn't think of that at the time, and I
> wasn't convinced that I could stay legal if someone in authority decided
> that pillar of vapor coming from the steel plant constituted a "cloud". So
> I just landed and cut the flight short.

How big was this pillar, 50', 200', 500' around, and you have miles of
airspace with which to avoid it? Chill out (or just sublimate)! No one
in the FAA sits around with radar scopes looking for VFR pilots who
come within 400' of a cloud when the limit is 500'. Not by any means
saying you can't get snagged in a technicality but my primary thought
process is, "am I creating a risk by doing this."

Example: few weekends ago I flew from BED to MVY under an broken
cumulus ceiling that ranged between probably 2800' and 4000'. It was
being produced by typical summer ground heating and ended abruptly at
the shoreline. The forecast was unambiguous and expected no change
until long after the flight.

We cruised at altitudes between 3500' and 2500' the whole way pretty
much. It was an otherwise gorgeous Saturday and we were cleared to
land by Vineyard tower 5 miles out. Had the ceiling been 1000' higher
we would have been sequenced at #5. I should mention the visibilities
were >50 miles, and the tallest things between BED and MVY are one
small patch of radio towers that are very easy to see and avoid. I
also was under flight following the whole way, just so ATC knew where
I was in case there was any IFR traffic that might want to come down
through the clouds.

To be sure, this is a flight I probably wouldn't have made on my own
50-100 hours ago (200TT now) but for this, what I could see was, that
I had oodles of visibility, very static weather conditions (no chance
of convective stuff either), and 1500-200' of legal altitude to work
with. Under these circumstances is anybody going to care whether I was
within 400' or 500' of the cloud above me? The ASOS at my home field
is often off by 100s of feet from what I see out the window. You say
to-may-to, I say to-mah-to. I felt comfortable that I had a million
"outs" in case things got worse (airports everywhere within 5-10mi of
my route the whole way) and I conducted the flight in such a way as
not to endanger anyone else either. Maybe I'm being overconfident, or
maybe I'm becoming more experienced. Sometimes it's hard to tell the
difference. All I know is that it looked to me like a ton of guys
missed a great day to fly.

-cwk.