An Amazing Display of Precision

[Jay Honeck]

www.alexisparkinn.com/photogallery/Videos/F-16%20in%20Falluja.wmv

According to the person who sent it, this video was recently taken from an
F-16 on a bombing mission in Fallujah, Iraq.

The pilot is bombing a safehouse for insurgents. As the bomb is falling,
the house begins to empty of fighters, all en route to a nearby fire-fight
with U.S. Marines. The pilot notes this, and seeks (and is granted)
permission to change his targeting from the house to the fighters -- with
incredible results.

It's an amazing display of technology and precision bombing. I sure as hell
would not want to be fighting against that kind of firepower.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Bob Fry]

"Jay Honeck" > writes:

> It's an amazing display of technology and precision bombing. I sure as hell
> would not want to be fighting against that kind of firepower.

Nor I. But they don't seem to mind. And I believe that should our
country be invaded in a like manner, we would fight back as hard, in
any way available to us.


"Army Chief of Staff Gen. Peter J. Schoomaker, a veteran of many
years [of] service in Special Forces and the super-secret Delta Force who
was brought out of retirement to run the Army, said: 'This war cannot
be won militarily. The gun will not win this one. This is a clash of
ideas, an information war.'"

The Bushies and hard right will never understand this.

[C J Campbell]

"Bob Fry" > wrote in message
...
> "Jay Honeck" > writes:
>
> > It's an amazing display of technology and precision bombing. I sure as
hell
> > would not want to be fighting against that kind of firepower.
>
> Nor I. But they don't seem to mind. And I believe that should our
> country be invaded in a like manner, we would fight back as hard, in
> any way available to us.
>
>
> "Army Chief of Staff Gen. Peter J. Schoomaker, a veteran of many
> years [of] service in Special Forces and the super-secret Delta Force who
> was brought out of retirement to run the Army, said: 'This war cannot
> be won militarily. The gun will not win this one. This is a clash of
> ideas, an information war.'"
>
> The Bushies and hard right will never understand this.

And the left will never understand that no war is won militarily. All that
the United States is trying to do is buy enough time to give democracy a
chance to take hold there.

[Doug]

Bob Fry > wrote in
:

> "Jay Honeck" > writes:
>
>> It's an amazing display of technology and precision bombing. I sure
>> as hell would not want to be fighting against that kind of firepower.
>
> Nor I. But they don't seem to mind. And I believe that should our
> country be invaded in a like manner, we would fight back as hard, in
> any way available to us.



You make these terrorist murderers sound like freedom fighters... do you
and your terrorist bretheren forget so easily the systematic torture and
rape of Iraqi citizens, the payments to Palestineian Homicide bombers,
the safe harbor granted to internation terrorists, the developement and
acquistion of chemical, biological and nuclear weapons, the DAILY
attacks on colalition forces enforcing the UN no-fly zones, billions
siphoned off to build palaces while people starved? The invasion of
neighboring countries, the 12 years of the despots middle finger waving
openly in the face of the Internation community???

Now we have these islamo-facists animals standing up on Irans money,
they need to be swiftly kicked in the ass,....no let me say clearly,
they need to be killed, stomped on, rolled over upon. Give these Iraqis
a chance at freedom not a life controlled by Facists that curse the name
of God, calling for murder and mayhem in his name.

Geez you liberal POS will you people ever understand that they will cut
your throat regardless of how much you hug them. You *******s did it in
the 60's and left a nation in communistic chains.. we will not allow you
to do that again.

So NO, If my mother was raped in front of me and my sister thrown to
starving lions to be mauled to death I would not fight the very people
that liberated me from that horror.

-Doug
"I AM THE FAR RIGHT"

[Darkwing Duck \(The Duck, The Myth, The Legend\)]

"Bob Fry" > wrote in message
...
> "Jay Honeck" > writes:
>
> > It's an amazing display of technology and precision bombing. I sure as
hell
> > would not want to be fighting against that kind of firepower.
>
> Nor I. But they don't seem to mind. And I believe that should our
> country be invaded in a like manner, we would fight back as hard, in
> any way available to us.
>
>
> "Army Chief of Staff Gen. Peter J. Schoomaker, a veteran of many
> years [of] service in Special Forces and the super-secret Delta Force who
> was brought out of retirement to run the Army, said: 'This war cannot
> be won militarily. The gun will not win this one. This is a clash of
> ideas, an information war.'"
>
> The Bushies and hard right will never understand this.

America 200+ years old....

Middle East, how old is the human species...

They have been killing each other since the dawn on man, don't blame the USA
on their inability to throw that stupid book in the trash.

[Jon Kraus]

Amazing.... I have to wonder though if the "Oh Dude!!" heard at the end
was proper phraseology. :-)

Jon Kraus
PP-ASEL-IA
Student Aircraft Purchaser

Jay Honeck wrote:
> www.alexisparkinn.com/photogallery/Videos/F-16%20in%20Falluja.wmv
>
> According to the person who sent it, this video was recently taken from an
> F-16 on a bombing mission in Fallujah, Iraq.
>
> The pilot is bombing a safehouse for insurgents. As the bomb is falling,
> the house begins to empty of fighters, all en route to a nearby fire-fight
> with U.S. Marines. The pilot notes this, and seeks (and is granted)
> permission to change his targeting from the house to the fighters -- with
> incredible results.
>
> It's an amazing display of technology and precision bombing. I sure as hell
> would not want to be fighting against that kind of firepower.

[Peter Gottlieb]

"Doug" > wrote in message
...
>
> You make these terrorist murderers sound like freedom fighters... do you
> and your terrorist bretheren forget ...


Seems like a troll to me.

[Rich Lemert]

C J Campbell wrote:

>
> And the left will never understand that no war is won militarily. All that
> the United States is trying to do is buy enough time to give democracy a
> chance to take hold there.
>
>

And just how stable is this democracy going to be, when (1) the
population has essentially no experience in running a democracy, (2)
they have essentially no stake in the formation of that democracy (since
it is, in essence, being imposed upon them, rather than being something
they've earned), and (3) are part of a culture where there is a
significant faction that seriously believes a democracy is blasphemy
because it is not a theocracy based on "the true word".

Rich Lemert

[Peter Gottlieb]

"Rich Lemert" > wrote in message
nk.net...
> And just how stable is this democracy going to be, when (...

Nobody seems to know the best way to go with this. It is made much more
complicated by the external forces (Iran, Syria, Al Queda, etc) meddling
around.

My feeling is that regardless of how we got to this point, we need more of a
cooperative international effort to get some sort of resolution, no matter
how perfect or imperfect.

But who am I to say, I'm certainly no expert on these matters (not that the
"experts" have done any better, mind you).

[ShawnD2112]

How many brothers or sons have you lost in combat in Iraq, Doug? I find it
interesting that you always find the extreme right on the outside of the
perimeter fence around any military installation. Those inside are usually
not quite so vociferous.

Shawn
"Doug" > wrote in message
...
> Bob Fry > wrote in
> :
>
> > "Jay Honeck" > writes:
> >
> >> It's an amazing display of technology and precision bombing. I sure
> >> as hell would not want to be fighting against that kind of firepower.
> >
> > Nor I. But they don't seem to mind. And I believe that should our
> > country be invaded in a like manner, we would fight back as hard, in
> > any way available to us.
>
>
>
> You make these terrorist murderers sound like freedom fighters... do you
> and your terrorist bretheren forget so easily the systematic torture and
> rape of Iraqi citizens, the payments to Palestineian Homicide bombers,
> the safe harbor granted to internation terrorists, the developement and
> acquistion of chemical, biological and nuclear weapons, the DAILY
> attacks on colalition forces enforcing the UN no-fly zones, billions
> siphoned off to build palaces while people starved? The invasion of
> neighboring countries, the 12 years of the despots middle finger waving
> openly in the face of the Internation community???
>
> Now we have these islamo-facists animals standing up on Irans money,
> they need to be swiftly kicked in the ass,....no let me say clearly,
> they need to be killed, stomped on, rolled over upon. Give these Iraqis
> a chance at freedom not a life controlled by Facists that curse the name
> of God, calling for murder and mayhem in his name.
>
> Geez you liberal POS will you people ever understand that they will cut
> your throat regardless of how much you hug them. You *******s did it in
> the 60's and left a nation in communistic chains.. we will not allow you
> to do that again.
>
> So NO, If my mother was raped in front of me and my sister thrown to
> starving lions to be mauled to death I would not fight the very people
> that liberated me from that horror.
>
> -Doug
> "I AM THE FAR RIGHT"
>

[Jay Honeck]

> I find it
> interesting that you always find the extreme right on the outside of the
> perimeter fence around any military installation. Those inside are
usually
> not quite so vociferous.

Haven't been to many Marine bases, have you?

;-)
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Tom S.]

"ShawnD2112" > wrote in message
...
> How many brothers or sons have you lost in combat in Iraq, Doug? I find
it
> interesting that you always find the extreme right on the outside of the
> perimeter fence around any military installation. Those inside are
usually
> not quite so vociferous.
>
> Shawn

I have two nephews in Iraq, a daughter in the AF and another in the Navy.

Stick it where the sun don't shine, ****BAG!

[Corky Scott]

On Mon, 23 Aug 2004 21:07:07 GMT, "Jay Honeck"
> wrote:

>The pilot is bombing a safehouse for insurgents. As the bomb is falling,
>the house begins to empty of fighters, all en route to a nearby fire-fight
>with U.S. Marines. The pilot notes this, and seeks (and is granted)
>permission to change his targeting from the house to the fighters -- with
>incredible results.

I wonder, was it confirmed, after the fact, that these people were
actually fighters en route to a nearby fire-fight? I sure hope so,
but y'know what with the blast damage and all, it might be kinda hard
to identify anything.

Corky Scott

[Dale]

In article >,
Corky Scott > wrote:


>
> I wonder, was it confirmed, after the fact, that these people were
> actually fighters en route to a nearby fire-fight? I sure hope so,
> but y'know what with the blast damage and all, it might be kinda hard
> to identify anything.


I've seen that same footage posted and it was supposedly a wedding party
and not combatants. Only those who were there know what it was in
reality.

--
Dale L. Falk

There is nothing - absolutely nothing - half so much worth doing
as simply messing around with airplanes.

http://home.gci.net/~sncdfalk/flying.html

[Tom S.]

"Corky Scott" > wrote in message
...
> On Mon, 23 Aug 2004 21:07:07 GMT, "Jay Honeck"
> > wrote:
>
> >The pilot is bombing a safehouse for insurgents. As the bomb is falling,
> >the house begins to empty of fighters, all en route to a nearby
fire-fight
> >with U.S. Marines. The pilot notes this, and seeks (and is granted)
> >permission to change his targeting from the house to the fighters -- with
> >incredible results.
>
> I wonder, was it confirmed, after the fact, that these people were
> actually fighters en route to a nearby fire-fight? I sure hope so,
> but y'know what with the blast damage and all, it might be kinda hard
> to identify anything.
>

Maybe they were just out jogging.

[BllFs6]

>I've seen that same footage posted and it was supposedly a wedding party
>and not combatants. Only those who were there know what it was in
>reality.
>

maybe the muslim veil was lifted from the bride and hence the resulting
"fleeing" of the building?

Sorry

couldnt resist

Blll

[Darkwing Duck \(The Duck, The Myth, The Legend\)]

"Dale" > wrote in message
...
> In article >,
> Corky Scott > wrote:
>
>
> >
> > I wonder, was it confirmed, after the fact, that these people were
> > actually fighters en route to a nearby fire-fight? I sure hope so,
> > but y'know what with the blast damage and all, it might be kinda hard
> > to identify anything.
>
>
> I've seen that same footage posted and it was supposedly a wedding party
> and not combatants. Only those who were there know what it was in
> reality.
>
> --
> Dale L. Falk


It was also reported that the "wedding party" was at 3am on the Syrian
border.

[ShawnD2112]

Nicely lowered tone, Doug. But you still didn't answer the question.
Having someone in and losing someone to the cause are two different things.

Shawn
"Tom S." > wrote in message
...
>
> "ShawnD2112" > wrote in message
> ...
> > How many brothers or sons have you lost in combat in Iraq, Doug? I find
> it
> > interesting that you always find the extreme right on the outside of the
> > perimeter fence around any military installation. Those inside are
> usually
> > not quite so vociferous.
> >
> > Shawn
>
> I have two nephews in Iraq, a daughter in the AF and another in the Navy.
>
> Stick it where the sun don't shine, ****BAG!
>
>

[Andrew Gideon]

Rich Lemert wrote:

> And just how stable is this democracy going to be, when (1) the
> population has essentially no experience in running a democracy, (2)
> they have essentially no stake in the formation of that democracy (since
> it is, in essence, being imposed upon them, rather than being something
> they've earned), and (3) are part of a culture where there is a
> significant faction that seriously believes a democracy is blasphemy
> because it is not a theocracy based on "the true word".

You forgot (4) The US really doesn't want a democracy there.

Consider: A real democracy would rapidly devolve into a shiite theocracy.
They're the majority, after all.

What the US wants to see is somewhat more complex, and very poorly
explained: a nation-state where religion is kept as far out of government
as possible, and the rights of the minorities are protected so strictly
that a "tyranny of the majority" cannot effectively occur.

That the current administration needs to push this is just one of too many
ironies.

- Andrew

[ShawnD2112]

Jay,
Not many Marine, but I was in the USAF for 7 years. While the sentiments
often run very deep in military people, they tend to carry their thoughts a
little less overtly than some other segments of the public, was my main
point.

Shawn
"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
news:9XFWc.223827$eM2.209897@attbi_s51...
> > I find it
> > interesting that you always find the extreme right on the outside of the
> > perimeter fence around any military installation. Those inside are
> usually
> > not quite so vociferous.
>
> Haven't been to many Marine bases, have you?
>
> ;-)
> --
> Jay Honeck
> Iowa City, IA
> Pathfinder N56993
> www.AlexisParkInn.com
> "Your Aviation Destination"
>
>

[Jon Kraus]

Maybe there was a "Blue Light Special" on head scarfs at the
neighborhood K-mart...

JK


Tom S. wrote:
> "Corky Scott" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>On Mon, 23 Aug 2004 21:07:07 GMT, "Jay Honeck"
> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>The pilot is bombing a safehouse for insurgents. As the bomb is falling,
>>>the house begins to empty of fighters, all en route to a nearby
>
> fire-fight
>
>>>with U.S. Marines. The pilot notes this, and seeks (and is granted)
>>>permission to change his targeting from the house to the fighters -- with
>>>incredible results.
>>
>>I wonder, was it confirmed, after the fact, that these people were
>>actually fighters en route to a nearby fire-fight? I sure hope so,
>>but y'know what with the blast damage and all, it might be kinda hard
>>to identify anything.
>>
>
>
> Maybe they were just out jogging.
>
>

[Peter Gottlieb]

>>>
>>>I wonder, was it confirmed, after the fact, that these people were
>>>actually fighters en route to a nearby fire-fight? I sure hope so,
>>>but y'know what with the blast damage and all, it might be kinda hard
>>>to identify anything.
>>>
>> Maybe they were just out jogging.
>>


"Looks like I picked the wrong day to start jogging..."

[Jon Kraus]

Looks like the they "picked the wrong week to f**ck with the US"...

JK

Peter Gottlieb wrote:

>>>>I wonder, was it confirmed, after the fact, that these people were
>>>>actually fighters en route to a nearby fire-fight? I sure hope so,
>>>>but y'know what with the blast damage and all, it might be kinda hard
>>>>to identify anything.
>>>>
>>>
>>>Maybe they were just out jogging.
>>>
>
>
>
> "Looks like I picked the wrong day to start jogging..."
>
>

[Corky Scott]

On Wed, 25 Aug 2004 16:13:46 GMT, Jon Kraus >
wrote:

>Looks like the they "picked the wrong week to f**ck with the US"...
>
>JK

No one has been able to confirm here that the people hit by the bomb
were in fact insurgents and not some innocent group. I'm not saying
they were an innocent group, it's just that that information hasn't
been made available here.

The controller ok'd the switch to the group target from the "safe
house" virtually instantaneously, which would lead one to believe that
the military was pretty sure of it's target, and therefore that anyone
running down the road in the proximity of the target must be hostile
and legitimate targets.

It would just be nice to know if we're oooing and aaaahhing over a hit
on actual enemy or an example of "collateral damage".

Corky Scott

[gatt]

"C J Campbell" > wrote in message

> And the left will never understand that no war is won militarily.

Maybe not anymore. I'd say that the American civil war was by virtue of
attrition and demolition against the Confederate states. World War II would
probably apply too. As my grandfather said, by 1945 there wasn't much of
Germany left to bomb.

-c

[gatt]

"Rich Lemert" > wrote in message news:FTxWc.2063$Y%

> And just how stable is this democracy going to be, when (1) the
> population has essentially no experience in running a democracy, (2)
> they have essentially no stake in the formation of that democracy (since
> it is, in essence, being imposed upon them, rather than being something
> they've earned), and (3) are part of a culture where there is a
> significant faction that seriously believes a democracy is blasphemy
> because it is not a theocracy based on "the true word".

There hasn't been peace in the middle east since before the Old Testament.
They've been fighting each other over God for over six thousand years and,
remember: Islam is a religion of peace. The idea that America is going to
change that is heroic, but fanciful.



-c

[gatt]

"Doug" > wrote in message

> You make these terrorist murderers sound like freedom fighters...

Reconsider his point. We probably all agree that they're scumbags that want
to get their virgins et al from Allah, and some of us believe we should
oblige them as quickly as possible. But, southern author Shelby Foote said
of the civil war that if you were to ask the average southern soldier why he
fought against the US, he'd most likely say "because they're here."
The -Iraqis- (not the insurgents) are likely fighting because they 1)
believe the propanda that has been pounded into them for the last 30 years,
and 2) know somebody who has been endangered by the war.

It is in all likelihood true that if, say, the UN invaded America and
toppled our government to set up a new one, even many of the 50% who oppose
the current administration would react violently. We would expect nothing
less of our countrymen and should expect nothing less of the patriots of
Iraq. I'm more of a fan of the AC-130 gunship than the rich kid with the
private army--the "warlord cleric" and murder suspect holding holy sites
hostage--but, reality is what it is, and Iraq doesn't yet get The History
Channel.

-c

[gatt]

"Dale" > wrote in message news:me-

> I've seen that same footage posted and it was supposedly a wedding party
> and not combatants. Only those who were there know what it was in
> reality.

It's always a wedding party or a baby milk factory. It's unfortunate that
that region of the world is so f'ed up that public display of your AK-47 is
a sign of manhood, and firing assault weapons straight up into the air in
populated areas is a great way to celebrate a wedding.

Hey...maybe the F-16 was celebrating the same wedding!

-c

[gatt]

"Peter Gottlieb" > wrote in message news:5YUWc.1181

> >> Maybe they were just out jogging.
> >>
> "Looks like I picked the wrong day to start jogging..."

I can't BELIEVE you people can look at video showing the death of dozens of
human beings and make a joke about it... ...but, since you are,
AAAHAHAHAHAAAA!!! ROFL! ;>

-c

[gatt]

"Corky Scott" > wrote in message

> The controller ok'd the switch to the group target from the "safe
> house" virtually instantaneously, which would lead one to believe that
> the military was pretty sure of it's target, and therefore that anyone
> running down the road in the proximity of the target must be hostile
> and legitimate targets.

We'd have to know all of the tactical details that led to the airstrike in
the first place. On it's face, we see little ant-people getting blown to
hell. Could be military, could be civilian but the peripheral questions
are: Was there fighting up the street? Were there other insurgents who
came from that area to fight the US Marines? It's a street: Where's the
traffic?

They could have been soldiers or protestors, but only the forward
controllers would know for sure. It's impossible to look at just the video
and know what's going on except that when mama says don't hang out with the
wrong crowd, she might have a point.

-c

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"gatt" > wrote in message
...
>
> There hasn't been peace in the middle east since before the Old Testament.
> They've been fighting each other over God for over six thousand years and,
> remember: Islam is a religion of peace.
>

How can that be? Isn't Islam only about 1300 years old?

[Bob Fry]

"Steven P. McNicoll" > writes:

> "gatt" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > There hasn't been peace in the middle east since before the Old Testament.
> > They've been fighting each other over God for over six thousand years and,
> > remember: Islam is a religion of peace.
> >
>
> How can that be? Isn't Islam only about 1300 years old?

A quick read of the OT will explain. Just the first few chapters are
enough.

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Bob Fry" > wrote in message
...
>
> A quick read of the OT will explain. Just the first few chapters are
> enough.
>

No it won't. The Old Testament begins with the creation. The statement in
question was, "There hasn't been peace in the middle east since before the
Old Testament." The statement is immediately recognized as crapola because
there was nothing before creation.

[Peter Gottlieb]

"Steven P. McNicoll" > wrote in message
ink.net...
>
> No it won't. The Old Testament begins with the creation. The statement
> in
> question was, "There hasn't been peace in the middle east since before the
> Old Testament." The statement is immediately recognized as crapola
> because
> there was nothing before creation.
>

Do you have evidence of this or is this something you take on faith?

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Peter Gottlieb" > wrote in message
et...
>
> Do you have evidence of this or is this something you take on faith?
>

Evidence of what? That the Old Testament begins with Creation? Sure, I
have evidence, the freakin' Bible!

[Tom S.]

"Steven P. McNicoll" > wrote in message
.net...
>
> "Peter Gottlieb" > wrote in message
> et...
> >
> > Do you have evidence of this or is this something you take on faith?
> >
>
> Evidence of what? That the Old Testament begins with Creation? Sure, I
> have evidence, the freakin' Bible!

You evidently know as much about nations and states as you do about
"evidence".

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Tom S." > wrote in message
...
>
> You evidently know as much about nations and states as you do about
> "evidence".
>

You evidently haven't read the previous messages.

[Tom S.]

"Steven P. McNicoll" > wrote in message
.net...
>
> "Tom S." > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > You evidently know as much about nations and states as you do about
> > "evidence".
> >
>
> You evidently haven't read the previous messages.

Maybe if you wouldn't snip all the context....

You know Steven, brevity in UseNet is not as critical as it is in your day
job.

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Tom S." > wrote in message
...
>
> Maybe if you wouldn't snip all the context....
>

I leave enough.

[Frank]

Corky Scott wrote:

<snip>

> The controller ok'd the switch to the group target from the "safe
> house" virtually instantaneously, which would lead one to believe that
> the military was pretty sure of it's target, and therefore that anyone
> running down the road in the proximity of the target must be hostile
> and legitimate targets.

I would hope they were "pretty sure of [the] target" before they even
started.

> It would just be nice to know if we're oooing and aaaahhing over a hit
> on actual enemy or an example of "collateral damage".
>
> Corky Scott

--
Frank....H

[Jim Fisher]

"gatt" > wrote in message
> There hasn't been peace in the middle east since before the Old Testament.

Yeah but they've never had an ass-whoopin like this ass-whoopin.

--
Jim Fisher

[FullName]

"ShawnD2112" > wrote in
:

> How many brothers or sons have you lost in combat in Iraq, Doug? I
> find it interesting that you always find the extreme right on the
> outside of the perimeter fence around any military installation.
> Those inside are usually not quite so vociferous.
>


I have lost 3,000 friends brothers and countrymen in this war, thank you
sir. I have 3 more direct personal friends that I would trade places
with today ...that are on the border of Syria as I type this.

What about you?

I have served 4 years USAF (5th SWS Woomera Australia) during '91 gulf
war with 23 scud launch detections while on my watch (called by me
personally). 70% of them shot down by patriot missle batteries saving
the lives of not only my military brothers but civillians as well.

And I can tell you that when I was in the service (3 stations, 13 TDYs)
I never found anyone that was "for" clinton. The office was the only
thing my brothers respected, he was a joke at the enlisted club. So you
make it apparent that you may have never been on a military base, unless
it was part of the clinton social experiment.

And for reference:

My only son has made his own decision to join the Marines when he
graduates HS to become a sniper and put bullets in the heads of those
that wish to do our country harm. I will be the one that sends him off
to fight for our freedom.

My Father served honorably in Korea and Grandfather parachuted into the
South Pacific in WWII. So we could have this freedom we share today.

So dont you DARE assume to tell me what scarafice is. I have put my
name on the paper to take arms to defend this county and die for it if
necessary. My family before me has and my son will when its his turn to
pull his duty. My prayers, praise and support will always be with them.

[ShawnD2112]

Sorry, but I don't remember directing my previous post to you, but rather to
a guy named Doug. However, from what you've written, you've earned the
right to be as vociferous as you like as you've put your money where your
mouth is, so to speak. Not everyone who is so vocal about urging the US
into combat is in the same situation, having either made any personal
sacrifices or offering to do so.

And I'll thank you to not make the same assumptions you accuse me of making.
7+ years in the USAF, service in Conus, Korea, Turkey, UK. It's because I
value the armed forces and the men and women in it that I dislike seeing
them used in any but the most noble of causes. And George W.'s personal
fight in Afghanistan and Iraq don't qualify, in my mind. But that kind of
disagreement between people is what it's all about. You don't have to agree
with me and I don't have to agree with you, but I did spend 7 years
defending our collective right to disagree.

Shawn
"FullName" > wrote in message
...
> "ShawnD2112" > wrote in
> :
>
> > How many brothers or sons have you lost in combat in Iraq, Doug? I
> > find it interesting that you always find the extreme right on the
> > outside of the perimeter fence around any military installation.
> > Those inside are usually not quite so vociferous.
> >
>
>
> I have lost 3,000 friends brothers and countrymen in this war, thank you
> sir. I have 3 more direct personal friends that I would trade places
> with today ...that are on the border of Syria as I type this.
>
> What about you?
>
> I have served 4 years USAF (5th SWS Woomera Australia) during '91 gulf
> war with 23 scud launch detections while on my watch (called by me
> personally). 70% of them shot down by patriot missle batteries saving
> the lives of not only my military brothers but civillians as well.
>
> And I can tell you that when I was in the service (3 stations, 13 TDYs)
> I never found anyone that was "for" clinton. The office was the only
> thing my brothers respected, he was a joke at the enlisted club. So you
> make it apparent that you may have never been on a military base, unless
> it was part of the clinton social experiment.
>
> And for reference:
>
> My only son has made his own decision to join the Marines when he
> graduates HS to become a sniper and put bullets in the heads of those
> that wish to do our country harm. I will be the one that sends him off
> to fight for our freedom.
>
> My Father served honorably in Korea and Grandfather parachuted into the
> South Pacific in WWII. So we could have this freedom we share today.
>
> So dont you DARE assume to tell me what scarafice is. I have put my
> name on the paper to take arms to defend this county and die for it if
> necessary. My family before me has and my son will when its his turn to
> pull his duty. My prayers, praise and support will always be with them.
>
>
>
>
>
>

[C Kingsbury]

"ShawnD2112" > wrote in message >...
>
> Nicely lowered tone, Doug. But you still didn't answer the question.
> Having someone in and losing someone to the cause are two different things.
>
> Shawn

So, does that mean that only people who've lost someone they love are
entitled to speak their mind?

Is it enough if it's just a good buddy they lose, or does it have to
be a first-order blood relative?

Do parents who lose an only child get more "opinion credits" than a
big Irish Catholic family with four sons?

A great quote from an old Abraham Lincoln campaign speech, when he was
still a congressman:

"By the way, Mr. Speaker, did you know I am a military hero? Yes sir;
in the days of the Black Hawk war, I fought, bled, and came away.
Speaking of General Cass' career reminds me of my own. I was not at
Stillman's defeat, but I was about as near it, as Cass was to Hull's
surrender; and like him, I saw the place very soon afterwards... If
Gen. Cass went in advance of me in picking huckleberries, I guess I
surpassed him in charges upon the wild onions. If he saw any live
fighting Indians, it was more than I did; but I had a good many bloody
struggles with the mosquitoes; and although I never fainted from loss
of blood, I can truly say I was often very hungry."

Cheers,
-cwk.

[FullName (Doug)]

"ShawnD2112" > wrote in
:

> Sorry, but I don't remember directing my previous post to you, but
> rather to a guy named Doug. However, from what you've written, you've
> earned the right to be as vociferous as you like as you've put your
> money where your mouth is, so to speak. Not everyone who is so vocal
> about urging the US into combat is in the same situation, having
> either made any personal sacrifices or offering to do so.
>
> And I'll thank you to not make the same assumptions you accuse me of
> making. 7+ years in the USAF, service in Conus, Korea, Turkey, UK.
> It's because I value the armed forces and the men and women in it that
> I dislike seeing them used in any but the most noble of causes. And
> George W.'s personal fight in Afghanistan and Iraq don't qualify, in
> my mind. But that kind of disagreement between people is what it's
> all about. You don't have to agree with me and I don't have to agree
> with you, but I did spend 7 years defending our collective right to
> disagree.


Fair enough and thank you for your service.

Excellent discussion, lets go have a beer :-)