Pitts Groundloop

[Michael 182]

I was sitting on the FBO bench today when a Pitts groundlooped. The pilot is
fine - he walked away from the plane. The plane seemed to have suffered
pretty minor damage as well. About a 40 degree 12 knot crosswind - certainly
not windy conditions.

The comment by the FBO owner was "the most acrobatic maneuver in a Pitts is
landing the plane". While this may or may not be true, it is amazing how
fast the Pitts comes in over the runway - his turn from downwind to final
(there really is no base) drops 800 feet and he seems to cross the threshold
at at least 80 knots.

I'd be interested in hearing from Pitts owners/flyers - are they as
difficult to land as they seem (at least to a 182 owner)?

[MLenoch]

>I'd be interested in hearing from Pitts owners/flyers - are they as
>difficult to land as they seem (at least to a 182 owner)?

I found the Pitts to be as easy as a Cub in almost any wind condition. It had
lots of control authority, meaning rudder effectiveness. But my background
came with 1500 hours of various tailwheel time before I flew my Pitts.

Two things would cause a Pitts ground loop in my opinion: landing gear out of
alignment or poor pilot technique. Pick one of these two for the correct
answer.
VL

[john smith]

Michael 182 wrote:
> I was sitting on the FBO bench today when a Pitts groundlooped. The pilot is
> fine - he walked away from the plane. The plane seemed to have suffered
> pretty minor damage as well. About a 40 degree 12 knot crosswind - certainly
> not windy conditions.
> The comment by the FBO owner was "the most acrobatic maneuver in a Pitts is
> landing the plane". While this may or may not be true, it is amazing how
> fast the Pitts comes in over the runway - his turn from downwind to final
> (there really is no base) drops 800 feet and he seems to cross the threshold
> at at least 80 knots.

Another Pitts saying... "The airshow begins when the Pitts flairs to land."
Approach speed is 90 kts, sink rate without power is high. A 180 degree
constant turn approach provides visibility of the landing area until
touchdown.
Budd Davisson says most landing accidents/incidents are caused by
overcorrecting with the rudder pedals. The short coupling between the
main and tailwheel landing gear means you have to immediately correct
for any deviation from straight ahead.

[Michael 182]

"john smith" > wrote in message
...
> Another Pitts saying... "The airshow begins when the Pitts flairs to
land."
> Approach speed is 90 kts, sink rate without power is high. A 180 degree
> constant turn approach provides visibility of the landing area until
> touchdown.
> Budd Davisson says most landing accidents/incidents are caused by
> overcorrecting with the rudder pedals.


This appeared to be exactly what happened - overcorrection to the right,
then the counter correction led directly to the ground loop.

[Dave Stadt]

"john smith" > wrote in message
...
> Michael 182 wrote:
> > I was sitting on the FBO bench today when a Pitts groundlooped. The
pilot is
> > fine - he walked away from the plane. The plane seemed to have suffered
> > pretty minor damage as well. About a 40 degree 12 knot crosswind -
certainly
> > not windy conditions.
> > The comment by the FBO owner was "the most acrobatic maneuver in a Pitts
is
> > landing the plane". While this may or may not be true, it is amazing how
> > fast the Pitts comes in over the runway - his turn from downwind to
final
> > (there really is no base) drops 800 feet and he seems to cross the
threshold
> > at at least 80 knots.
>
> Another Pitts saying... "The airshow begins when the Pitts flairs to
land."
> Approach speed is 90 kts, sink rate without power is high. A 180 degree
> constant turn approach provides visibility of the landing area until
> touchdown.
> Budd Davisson says most landing accidents/incidents are caused by
> overcorrecting with the rudder pedals. The short coupling between the
> main and tailwheel landing gear means you have to immediately correct
> for any deviation from straight ahead.

Budd also says landing a Pitts is no big deal. High wing loading means it
does not get knocked around and it has a lot of control authority.

[Dudley Henriques]

"Michael 182" > wrote in message
news:woyWc.305300$%_6.409@attbi_s01...
> I was sitting on the FBO bench today when a Pitts groundlooped. The
pilot is
> fine - he walked away from the plane. The plane seemed to have
suffered
> pretty minor damage as well. About a 40 degree 12 knot crosswind -
certainly
> not windy conditions.
>
> The comment by the FBO owner was "the most acrobatic maneuver in a
Pitts is
> landing the plane". While this may or may not be true, it is amazing
how
> fast the Pitts comes in over the runway - his turn from downwind to
final
> (there really is no base) drops 800 feet and he seems to cross the
threshold
> at at least 80 knots.
>
> I'd be interested in hearing from Pitts owners/flyers - are they as
> difficult to land as they seem (at least to a 182 owner)?

The Pitts has a very underserved reputation for being squirrelly on
landing. Like all performance airplanes, it requires that you be
constantly ahead of the airplane and a smooth hand (and in the case of
the Pitts...smooth feet as well :-)
Actually, the airplane handles very well on landing. I preferred a tight
circling approach instead of long finals to give me constant visibility
over the nose. No big deal at all. The airplane has extremely honest
handling qualities during the flare and touchdown. You do have to be
extremely smooth on the rudder during roll out, especially in a
crosswind, but nothing I would call abnormal in any way....about the
same as a T6 really. The airplane tracks straight. The only pilots who
get in trouble with a Pitts on landing are pilots who stop flying the
airplane before it comes to a stop back on the ramp...which BTW, is my
personal golden rule for ANY airplane! :-)
Dudley Henriques
International Fighter Pilots Fellowship
Commercial Pilot/ CFI Retired

For personal email, please
replace the at with what goes there and
take out the Z's please!
dhenriquesZatZearthZlinkZdotZnet

[ShawnD2112]

All other comments here not withstanding, the Pitts has a funny quirk in
that it tracks straight and true in the initial landing and rollout but when
it gets down to about 30 mph, does get really squirrely and tends to make
it's most dramatic attempts at groundlooping. As everyone else has said,
it's not too big a deal and smooth but quick feet are all you need to make
it behave.

Shawn
Pitts S-1D
"Michael 182" > wrote in message
news:woyWc.305300$%_6.409@attbi_s01...
> I was sitting on the FBO bench today when a Pitts groundlooped. The pilot
is
> fine - he walked away from the plane. The plane seemed to have suffered
> pretty minor damage as well. About a 40 degree 12 knot crosswind -
certainly
> not windy conditions.
>
> The comment by the FBO owner was "the most acrobatic maneuver in a Pitts
is
> landing the plane". While this may or may not be true, it is amazing how
> fast the Pitts comes in over the runway - his turn from downwind to final
> (there really is no base) drops 800 feet and he seems to cross the
threshold
> at at least 80 knots.
>
> I'd be interested in hearing from Pitts owners/flyers - are they as
> difficult to land as they seem (at least to a 182 owner)?
>
>
>

[MLenoch]

DuD: Maybe you can answer this: Do the Blues have any consideration for
separation distances from tall buildings when doing performances around large
cities?
Thx,
VL

[Dudley Henriques]

"MLenoch" > wrote in message
...
> DuD: Maybe you can answer this: Do the Blues have any consideration
for
> separation distances from tall buildings when doing performances
around large
> cities?
> Thx,
> VL

It's funny you should ask this at this time Vlad; I don't have the
"official" skinny on it right now, and am myself in the process of
updating my own information as I'm writing this, but unless things have
changed around; it should be a QFE rounded off to the nearest 500 either
way and adjusted for apex gate at the top for the on site high show, and
it's the local altimeter setting for off site venues because of the MSL
problem with obstructions. I could be wrong on this however. It used to
work for the TB, but Mountain Home is being kicked around and things
might get a closer look by the powers that be before the dust settles
back in.
I actually have an "official" request into Nellis right now asking for
an update on this information as it affects the TB and haven't heard
back yet. Even the ex- TB pilots I talk to every day don't have an
inside to Nellis right now. Things are VERY tight as you can well
imagine.
To turn things around on you :-)) if YOU get any first hand info on this
issue in your travels, I'd appreciate you passing it on to me.
Dudley

[Dudley Henriques]

"ShawnD2112" > wrote in message
...
> All other comments here not withstanding, the Pitts has a funny quirk
in
> that it tracks straight and true in the initial landing and rollout
but when
> it gets down to about 30 mph, does get really squirrely and tends to
make
> it's most dramatic attempts at groundlooping. As everyone else has
said,
> it's not too big a deal and smooth but quick feet are all you need to
make
> it behave.
>
> Shawn
> Pitts S-1D

From my old personal checkout notes for pilots I was checking out in the
Pitts;

"The Pitts on roll out can be a very interesting machine if your mind
has already completed the landing but the airplane is still fooling
around with it :-))))
"Keep your heels firmly planted on the floor and make a fulcrum out of
your ankles so that when you apply rudder pressure on either side, the
pressure is controlled by the ankle instead of the knee.
This allows a much more subtle use of rudder and brake which is
absolutely imperative in a tailwheel airplane, ESPECIALLY one as closely
coupled as the Pitts, during the last phases of your roll out on landing
as rudder effectiveness is decreasing as the result of decreasing
dynamic pressure on the control surfaces!!!!"
Dudley Henriques
International Fighter Pilots Fellowship
Commercial Pilot/ CFI Retired

For personal email, please
replace the at with what goes there and
take out the Z's please!
dhenriquesZatZearthZlinkZdotZnet

[ShawnD2112]

Totally agree with what you say, Dudley. Maybe my machine has a toeing
problem, but it's one my guru told me to watch out for, so he seems to think
the bigger swings happen at lower groundspeed as a regular feature of the
type. I've never flown an S-1 other than my own so I can't really comment.

Either way, it's one hell of a fun airplane to fly! I was out this weekend
working on a sequence to use to get my UK display authorization as well as
some snap rolls. Both still need a lot of work to before they're good
enough in my mind, but my hammerheads are coming along much better now
(reducing power as the nose comes across seems to solve the torquing
problem). The only thing my S-1 is missing is a second seat to share the
ride with friends!

Shawn
"Dudley Henriques" > wrote in message
nk.net...
>
> "ShawnD2112" > wrote in message
> ...
> > All other comments here not withstanding, the Pitts has a funny quirk
> in
> > that it tracks straight and true in the initial landing and rollout
> but when
> > it gets down to about 30 mph, does get really squirrely and tends to
> make
> > it's most dramatic attempts at groundlooping. As everyone else has
> said,
> > it's not too big a deal and smooth but quick feet are all you need to
> make
> > it behave.
> >
> > Shawn
> > Pitts S-1D
>
> From my old personal checkout notes for pilots I was checking out in the
> Pitts;
>
> "The Pitts on roll out can be a very interesting machine if your mind
> has already completed the landing but the airplane is still fooling
> around with it :-))))
> "Keep your heels firmly planted on the floor and make a fulcrum out of
> your ankles so that when you apply rudder pressure on either side, the
> pressure is controlled by the ankle instead of the knee.
> This allows a much more subtle use of rudder and brake which is
> absolutely imperative in a tailwheel airplane, ESPECIALLY one as closely
> coupled as the Pitts, during the last phases of your roll out on landing
> as rudder effectiveness is decreasing as the result of decreasing
> dynamic pressure on the control surfaces!!!!"
> Dudley Henriques
> International Fighter Pilots Fellowship
> Commercial Pilot/ CFI Retired
>
> For personal email, please
> replace the at with what goes there and
> take out the Z's please!
> dhenriquesZatZearthZlinkZdotZnet
>
>

[PaulH]

(MLenoch) wrote in message >...
> DuD: Maybe you can answer this: Do the Blues have any consideration for
> separation distances from tall buildings when doing performances around large
> cities?
> Thx,
> VL

I wonder about this also. I live on the 21st floor in a Chicago
lakefront condo and a couple of Blue Angels went by level with our
window Saturday at what seemed a very short distance. Great to
watch!!

[Dudley Henriques]

"ShawnD2112" > wrote in message
...
> Totally agree with what you say, Dudley. Maybe my machine has a
toeing
> problem, but it's one my guru told me to watch out for, so he seems to
think
> the bigger swings happen at lower groundspeed as a regular feature of
the
> type. I've never flown an S-1 other than my own so I can't really
comment.
>
> Either way, it's one hell of a fun airplane to fly! I was out this
weekend
> working on a sequence to use to get my UK display authorization as
well as
> some snap rolls. Both still need a lot of work to before they're good
> enough in my mind, but my hammerheads are coming along much better now
> (reducing power as the nose comes across seems to solve the torquing
> problem). The only thing my S-1 is missing is a second seat to share
the
> ride with friends!
>
> Shawn

Hey Shawn; sounds like you're having fun! :-)

Snaps are all timing of course. Just watch out for the ole' "Pitts can
do it" syndrome. This settles in about the time you get the execution
for single snaps down perfectly and start doing snap and a half's with
recoveries exactly on target. The next logical step is multiple snaps,
and this of course requires higher airspeeds at entry. It's here that
you can get into over g problems with a Pitts if you're not real
careful.
You're right on about the power in a HH. (Do you have a 150 or a 180 in
your airplane?)
What I used to do to get a clean break was to use whatever rudder up the
vertical line I needed to keep things honest, then wait for the apex
peak. Just before reaching apex, I'd go hard inside rudder/outside
aileron and a bit of forward stick for the precess to initiate and just
as the nose started to knife, I'd ease off
the throttle and lose that dynamic pressure off the rudder to lose the
torque. Worked like a charm.......well.....most of the time anyway :-)))
In the Pitts, just be careful about that power and forward stick. You're
all pro for inverted flat spin in your airplane. If you get a bit too
much going on with that forward stick and power at the same time in your
airplane, you can easily go into an inverted flat spin with no trouble
at all...but I'm fairly sure you're on top of this and don't need my
"helping hand" :-)

Ah, for the good ole'days!!!!!! I miss it every now and then. :-)
Dudley

[alexy]

(PaulH) wrote:

(MLenoch) wrote in message >...
>> DuD: Maybe you can answer this: Do the Blues have any consideration for
>> separation distances from tall buildings when doing performances around large
>> cities?
>> Thx,
>> VL
>
>I wonder about this also. I live on the 21st floor in a Chicago
>lakefront condo and a couple of Blue Angels went by level with our
>window Saturday at what seemed a very short distance. Great to
>watch!!

Since they've been reported to be flying at Mach 6 around Chicago, I'd
stay away from windows when they are flying nearby! <g>
--
Alex
Make the obvious change in the return address to reply by email.

[Dudley Henriques]

"PaulH" > wrote in message
om...
> (MLenoch) wrote in message
>...
> > DuD: Maybe you can answer this: Do the Blues have any consideration
for
> > separation distances from tall buildings when doing performances
around large
> > cities?
> > Thx,
> > VL
>
> I wonder about this also. I live on the 21st floor in a Chicago
> lakefront condo and a couple of Blue Angels went by level with our
> window Saturday at what seemed a very short distance. Great to
> watch!!

That's about 210 feet agl. No problem! At that altitude, believe me, the
LAST thing you are watching is the altimeter!!! :-))

Dudley Henriques
International Fighter Pilots Fellowship
Commercial Pilot/ CFI Retired

For personal email, please
replace the at with what goes there and
take out the Z's please!
dhenriquesZatZearthZlinkZdotZnet

[Dudley Henriques]

"alexy" > wrote in message
...
> (PaulH) wrote:
>
> (MLenoch) wrote in message
>...
> >> DuD: Maybe you can answer this: Do the Blues have any
consideration for
> >> separation distances from tall buildings when doing performances
around large
> >> cities?
> >> Thx,
> >> VL
> >
> >I wonder about this also. I live on the 21st floor in a Chicago
> >lakefront condo and a couple of Blue Angels went by level with our
> >window Saturday at what seemed a very short distance. Great to
> >watch!!
>
> Since they've been reported to be flying at Mach 6 around Chicago, I'd
> stay away from windows when they are flying nearby! <g>

Mach 6 huh!!! Well.....you have to admit...the press IS getting better.
At least they didn't write "Mack 6"!!!!!!
Dudley Henriques
International Fighter Pilots Fellowship
Commercial Pilot/ CFI Retired

For personal email, please
replace the at with what goes there and
take out the Z's please!
dhenriquesZatZearthZlinkZdotZnet

[alexy]

"Dudley Henriques" > wrote:

>
>"alexy" > wrote in message

>> Since they've been reported to be flying at Mach 6 around Chicago, I'd
>> stay away from windows when they are flying nearby! <g>
>
>Mach 6 huh!!! Well.....you have to admit...the press IS getting better.
>At least they didn't write "Mack 6"!!!!!!

To be fair, the Sun Times was just reporting what they were told by
what they probably considered a reliable source on aviation matters --
the manager of the White Sox!
--
Alex
Make the obvious change in the return address to reply by email.

[MLenoch]

>To be fair, the Sun Times was just reporting what they were told by
>what they probably considered a reliable source on aviation matters --
>the manager of the White Sox!

It wasn't the Blues who buzzed the Sox on Saturday. I personally know who it
was..............
VL

[ShawnD2112]

It'll take me a couple of times to digest what you've written here, Dudley,
but I think I understand. So far, I'm not using any forward stick on
hammerheads and the amount of aileron I need seems to vary with each flight
(could it be weight dependant?).
Thanks again for the tips!
Shawn
"Dudley Henriques" > wrote in message
link.net...
>
> "ShawnD2112" > wrote in message
> ...
> > Totally agree with what you say, Dudley. Maybe my machine has a
> toeing
> > problem, but it's one my guru told me to watch out for, so he seems to
> think
> > the bigger swings happen at lower groundspeed as a regular feature of
> the
> > type. I've never flown an S-1 other than my own so I can't really
> comment.
> >
> > Either way, it's one hell of a fun airplane to fly! I was out this
> weekend
> > working on a sequence to use to get my UK display authorization as
> well as
> > some snap rolls. Both still need a lot of work to before they're good
> > enough in my mind, but my hammerheads are coming along much better now
> > (reducing power as the nose comes across seems to solve the torquing
> > problem). The only thing my S-1 is missing is a second seat to share
> the
> > ride with friends!
> >
> > Shawn
>
> Hey Shawn; sounds like you're having fun! :-)
>
> Snaps are all timing of course. Just watch out for the ole' "Pitts can
> do it" syndrome. This settles in about the time you get the execution
> for single snaps down perfectly and start doing snap and a half's with
> recoveries exactly on target. The next logical step is multiple snaps,
> and this of course requires higher airspeeds at entry. It's here that
> you can get into over g problems with a Pitts if you're not real
> careful.
> You're right on about the power in a HH. (Do you have a 150 or a 180 in
> your airplane?)
> What I used to do to get a clean break was to use whatever rudder up the
> vertical line I needed to keep things honest, then wait for the apex
> peak. Just before reaching apex, I'd go hard inside rudder/outside
> aileron and a bit of forward stick for the precess to initiate and just
> as the nose started to knife, I'd ease off
> the throttle and lose that dynamic pressure off the rudder to lose the
> torque. Worked like a charm.......well.....most of the time anyway :-)))
> In the Pitts, just be careful about that power and forward stick. You're
> all pro for inverted flat spin in your airplane. If you get a bit too
> much going on with that forward stick and power at the same time in your
> airplane, you can easily go into an inverted flat spin with no trouble
> at all...but I'm fairly sure you're on top of this and don't need my
> "helping hand" :-)
>
> Ah, for the good ole'days!!!!!! I miss it every now and then. :-)
> Dudley
>
>
>

[Dudley Henriques]

"ShawnD2112" > wrote in message
...
> It'll take me a couple of times to digest what you've written here,
Dudley,
> but I think I understand. So far, I'm not using any forward stick on
> hammerheads and the amount of aileron I need seems to vary with each
flight
> (could it be weight dependant?).
> Thanks again for the tips!
> Shawn

On the weight; in my opinion, no. You are probably doing it right and
not carrying power into the apex far enough to require a counter for the
precess. You would know this right away, as the nose would want to come
directly back into you throwing you off line.

Off the top of my head on HH's. Just remember I haven't been doing them
for a while now!!! :-))))

At the apex on a HH, you have several forces in play at once, depending
on the power in play when you reach the rotation point.
You're carrying a ton of power up the vertical line to extend and as
airspeed decreases, this power really begins to effect the airplane.
Basically, torque wants to pull you left; and in the slice down,
asymmetric lift wants to roll you left and precession (if you still have
the power in) is in play from the prop disk. The forward stick counters
the precession. Note that if you have cut the power, you have basically
settled the precess problem!! Usually, if your timing is just right, you
have just a bit of forward stick required at the apex just before you
throttle back. It's a touchy inter-relationship between the forces and
the required control pressures. The main thing in the Pitts is how close
to inverted flat spin pro controls you are with power on the airplane at
the apex coupled with whatever forward stick you need to counter the
precess from the prop. Visualize the nose wanting to come straight back
into you from the precess and you'll see right away why you need the
forward stick.
The main thing to remember is that with a HH, inputs are basically
sequential rather than all at once. The big issue is neutralizing on the
downside. Whatever you do in a Pitts, don't carry forward stick and full
rudder with power too far into the slice at the apex.
The good side of all this is that if you're doing it right, you're
cutting the power before you reach the critical point with forward stick
and the problem is solved. Anytime you blow something at the apex, cut
the power, let the nose come through, recover and do it again.

Dudley

[ShawnD2112]

"Anytime you blow something at the apex, cut
> the power, let the nose come through, recover and do it again."

Funnily enough, that's the one part I'm getting really good at! I learned
early on that the Pitts is actually pretty docile and if I find myself with
no energy and just basically tumbling or falling out of a maneuver, cut the
power, ease any pressures on any surfaces, the nose eventually comes down,
and she more or less sorts herself out. Two things required for that to
work: altitude to do it, patience to wait for it. It's kind of a weird
feeling knowing that, for a few seconds, you're merely cargo while the laws
of nature reassert their pre-eminence.

What I've had happening in my HHs is exactly as you describe. Formerly I'd
get to the apex, usually with full right aileron in, kick left rudder and
she'd roll over on her back, coming out of the maneuver vertical but about
60 degrees left of axis. Nothing I was doing with aileron or timing seemed
to work. So I started doing it just as above, but smoothly reducing power
as the nose slices, and that seems to have resolved the problem. They're
still not bang on, but I'm coming out only a few degrees off axis, which I
think is solvable, and certainly wouldn't give me a zero in a comp. I just
can't stand being beaten by a figure that's considered a pretty basic one!

Display sequence is coming on. Hope to practice some more this weekend if
the weather cooperates. I'm not ready to go for the DA yet, but a couple
more sessions and some more coaching and I think I'll be there.

Shawn
What kind of flying to you get up to these days, Dudley?

"Dudley Henriques" > wrote in message
ink.net...
>
> "ShawnD2112" > wrote in message
> ...
> > It'll take me a couple of times to digest what you've written here,
> Dudley,
> > but I think I understand. So far, I'm not using any forward stick on
> > hammerheads and the amount of aileron I need seems to vary with each
> flight
> > (could it be weight dependant?).
> > Thanks again for the tips!
> > Shawn
>
> On the weight; in my opinion, no. You are probably doing it right and
> not carrying power into the apex far enough to require a counter for the
> precess. You would know this right away, as the nose would want to come
> directly back into you throwing you off line.
>
> Off the top of my head on HH's. Just remember I haven't been doing them
> for a while now!!! :-))))
>
> At the apex on a HH, you have several forces in play at once, depending
> on the power in play when you reach the rotation point.
> You're carrying a ton of power up the vertical line to extend and as
> airspeed decreases, this power really begins to effect the airplane.
> Basically, torque wants to pull you left; and in the slice down,
> asymmetric lift wants to roll you left and precession (if you still have
> the power in) is in play from the prop disk. The forward stick counters
> the precession. Note that if you have cut the power, you have basically
> settled the precess problem!! Usually, if your timing is just right, you
> have just a bit of forward stick required at the apex just before you
> throttle back. It's a touchy inter-relationship between the forces and
> the required control pressures. The main thing in the Pitts is how close
> to inverted flat spin pro controls you are with power on the airplane at
> the apex coupled with whatever forward stick you need to counter the
> precess from the prop. Visualize the nose wanting to come straight back
> into you from the precess and you'll see right away why you need the
> forward stick.
> The main thing to remember is that with a HH, inputs are basically
> sequential rather than all at once. The big issue is neutralizing on the
> downside. Whatever you do in a Pitts, don't carry forward stick and full
> rudder with power too far into the slice at the apex.
> The good side of all this is that if you're doing it right, you're
> cutting the power before you reach the critical point with forward stick
> and the problem is solved. Anytime you blow something at the apex, cut
> the power, let the nose come through, recover and do it again.
>
> Dudley
>
>
>

[Dudley Henriques]

"ShawnD2112" > wrote in message
...
> "Anytime you blow something at the apex, cut
> > the power, let the nose come through, recover and do it again."
>
> Funnily enough, that's the one part I'm getting really good at! I
learned
> early on that the Pitts is actually pretty docile and if I find myself
with
> no energy and just basically tumbling or falling out of a maneuver,
cut the
> power, ease any pressures on any surfaces, the nose eventually comes
down,
> and she more or less sorts herself out. Two things required for that
to
> work: altitude to do it, patience to wait for it. It's kind of a
weird
> feeling knowing that, for a few seconds, you're merely cargo while the
laws
> of nature reassert their pre-eminence.

Sort of like a coupled spin entry. Really gives you that "IN CONTROL"
feeling doesn't it? :-)))

>
> What I've had happening in my HHs is exactly as you describe.
Formerly I'd
> get to the apex, usually with full right aileron in, kick left rudder
and
> she'd roll over on her back, coming out of the maneuver vertical but
about
> 60 degrees left of axis. Nothing I was doing with aileron or timing
seemed
> to work. So I started doing it just as above, but smoothly reducing
power
> as the nose slices, and that seems to have resolved the problem.
They're
> still not bang on, but I'm coming out only a few degrees off axis,
which I
> think is solvable, and certainly wouldn't give me a zero in a comp. I
just
> can't stand being beaten by a figure that's considered a pretty basic
one!
Actually, a good HH is not all that easy to do. The control pressure
sequence varies from airplane to airplane and the timing is as exact as
any maneuver you'll ever fly.
Sounds like you're getting a handle on everything :-)
>
> Display sequence is coming on. Hope to practice some more this
weekend if
> the weather cooperates. I'm not ready to go for the DA yet, but a
couple
> more sessions and some more coaching and I think I'll be there.

Sounds great. best of luck, and let me know how things are going.
>
> Shawn

> What kind of flying to you get up to these days, Dudley?

Well, I'm still quite active as a consultant to various interests in the
fighter community in the United States and I also consult on flight
safety issues from time to time within the flight demonstration
community, but I'm afraid my active flying days are about over. I lost
the vestibular system in my right ear and have a severe balance problem
above 1g. Basically what that means is that I have to allow you "younger
types" out there to have all the the fun while I just watch and critique
what you're doing! :-)
Dudley


>
> "Dudley Henriques" > wrote in message
> ink.net...
> >
> > "ShawnD2112" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > > It'll take me a couple of times to digest what you've written
here,
> > Dudley,
> > > but I think I understand. So far, I'm not using any forward stick
on
> > > hammerheads and the amount of aileron I need seems to vary with
each
> > flight
> > > (could it be weight dependant?).
> > > Thanks again for the tips!
> > > Shawn
> >
> > On the weight; in my opinion, no. You are probably doing it right
and
> > not carrying power into the apex far enough to require a counter for
the
> > precess. You would know this right away, as the nose would want to
come
> > directly back into you throwing you off line.
> >
> > Off the top of my head on HH's. Just remember I haven't been doing
them
> > for a while now!!! :-))))
> >
> > At the apex on a HH, you have several forces in play at once,
depending
> > on the power in play when you reach the rotation point.
> > You're carrying a ton of power up the vertical line to extend and as
> > airspeed decreases, this power really begins to effect the airplane.
> > Basically, torque wants to pull you left; and in the slice down,
> > asymmetric lift wants to roll you left and precession (if you still
have
> > the power in) is in play from the prop disk. The forward stick
counters
> > the precession. Note that if you have cut the power, you have
basically
> > settled the precess problem!! Usually, if your timing is just right,
you
> > have just a bit of forward stick required at the apex just before
you
> > throttle back. It's a touchy inter-relationship between the forces
and
> > the required control pressures. The main thing in the Pitts is how
close
> > to inverted flat spin pro controls you are with power on the
airplane at
> > the apex coupled with whatever forward stick you need to counter the
> > precess from the prop. Visualize the nose wanting to come straight
back
> > into you from the precess and you'll see right away why you need the
> > forward stick.
> > The main thing to remember is that with a HH, inputs are basically
> > sequential rather than all at once. The big issue is neutralizing on
the
> > downside. Whatever you do in a Pitts, don't carry forward stick and
full
> > rudder with power too far into the slice at the apex.
> > The good side of all this is that if you're doing it right, you're
> > cutting the power before you reach the critical point with forward
stick
> > and the problem is solved. Anytime you blow something at the apex,
cut
> > the power, let the nose come through, recover and do it again.
> >
> > Dudley
> >
> >
> >
>
>