Pathetic Pilot Salaries

[Vic]

Hi,

I am a 35 year old software programmer thinking about a possible
career change into aviation. I am currently working on my PPL.
I've come to know some pilots who are currently flying for ASA and
Comair. Both of them made UNDER 17,000.00 last year. They are both
young guys without families, homes,etc.. so it's a bit easier for
them to ride this through. Anyhow, since I haven't made up my mind
yet, I would love to hear from any of you who have been in a similar
situation. Especially if you are around my age, made the switch from a
previous career, are married, have children and a mortgage. You get my
point. How do you pay continue to pay the bills? I will obviously take
a huge hit salary speaking, but I was shocked at how low the starting
salaries are!! With my wife, children and mortgage, I could qualify
for food stamps on that kind of pay. Also, since that would put my
family below the poverty level, would I even have to pay income tax?
Not to mention I will also have to make payments on student loans if
I choose to go ahead with this.

My CFI tells me to avoid the regionals at all costs. He suggests
flying corporate, but after some research the starting salaries for a
corporate pilot seem to be just as low. He also said that in a few
years there will be a pilot shortage. If there is a pilot shortage in
3-5 years, what does this actually mean for newly rated commercial
pilots who are looking for their first job? If anyone has any thoughts
I would love to hear them. Thanks in advance!

Vic

[Paul Tomblin]

In a previous article, (Vic) said:
>I've come to know some pilots who are currently flying for ASA and
>Comair. Both of them made UNDER 17,000.00 last year. They are both

You know what they say: the only way to make a small fortune in aviation
is to start with a large one.


--
Paul Tomblin > http://xcski.com/blogs/pt/
Home pages are the pet rock of the 90s. They all have them, they all think
they're very cute. But in a few years they're going to look back and be
pretty embarrassed. -- Kim Alm

[user]

On 27 Aug 2004 06:02:10 -0700, Vic > wrote:
> Hi,
>
> I am a 35 year old software programmer thinking about a possible
> career change into aviation. I am currently working on my PPL.
> I've come to know some pilots who are currently flying for ASA and
> Comair. Both of them made UNDER 17,000.00 last year. They are both
> young guys without families, homes,etc.. so it's a bit easier for
> them to ride this through. Anyhow, since I haven't made up my mind
> yet, I would love to hear from any of you who have been in a similar
> situation. Especially if you are around my age, made the switch from a
> previous career, are married, have children and a mortgage. You get my
> point. How do you pay continue to pay the bills? I will obviously take
> a huge hit salary speaking, but I was shocked at how low the starting
> salaries are!! With my wife, children and mortgage, I could qualify
> for food stamps on that kind of pay. Also, since that would put my
> family below the poverty level, would I even have to pay income tax?
> Not to mention I will also have to make payments on student loans if
> I choose to go ahead with this.
>
> My CFI tells me to avoid the regionals at all costs. He suggests
> flying corporate, but after some research the starting salaries for a
> corporate pilot seem to be just as low. He also said that in a few
> years there will be a pilot shortage. If there is a pilot shortage in
> 3-5 years, what does this actually mean for newly rated commercial
> pilots who are looking for their first job? If anyone has any thoughts
> I would love to hear them. Thanks in advance!
>

My understanding is that switching jobs in commercial aviation is
hell, as well. From what I've read, because of all of the byzantine
seniority rules, even if you've managed to move up the ladder at
airline A for 15 years, if you decide to go to airline B... you start
right at the bottom again. With the corresponding drop in pay.

Personally, I prefer working in IT, where the surest way to get
a huge pay increase is simply to threaten to quit. ;-)

- Rich

[Ron Natalie]

"Vic" > wrote in message m...
> I am a 35 year old software programmer thinking about a possible

More money in computers. Believe me, I thought seriously about
other careers but the money is good and I am good at it.


> I've come to know some pilots who are currently flying for ASA and
> Comair. Both of them made UNDER 17,000.00 last year.

I know some entry level teachers that are making under 20,000.

[Trent Moorehead]

"Vic" > wrote in message
m...
> Hi,
>
> I am a 35 year old software programmer thinking about a possible
> career change into aviation.

<snip>

I haven't made the switch you are talking about, but I do have a point of
view which I think is relevant nonetheless.

When you have a family, your #1 job is taking care of them. That should be
your priority right now. If you can pursue a job in aviation without putting
undue hardship on your family, then go for it.

I know this isn't the post you were looking for, but making a career change
which will make your family eligible for food stamps doesn't sound like a
good decision to me.

-Trent
PP-ASEL

[William W. Plummer]

user wrote:

<snip>
> Personally, I prefer working in IT, where the surest way to get
> a huge pay increase is simply to threaten to quit. ;-)

Threatening to quit works until you are about 35 years old. Maybe a bit
longer if you walk on water. But later in life you can expect to be
pushed out in favor of younger, technology-current engineers.

But of course, ATPs have to retire at 60, and Air Traffic Controllers at
56. At least they know what to expect and can prepare for it.

[Paul Tomblin]

In a previous article, "William W. Plummer" > said:
>user wrote:
>
><snip>
>> Personally, I prefer working in IT, where the surest way to get
>> a huge pay increase is simply to threaten to quit. ;-)
>
>Threatening to quit works until you are about 35 years old. Maybe a bit
>longer if you walk on water. But later in life you can expect to be
>pushed out in favor of younger, technology-current engineers.

There is no hard and fast rule that says you can't stay technology-current
as you age. I started off doing FORTRAN on mainframes, went to C and
Unix, then C++ and Unix, and here I am at 44 doing Java on Linux, making
50% more than I was making when I was 35. And every step up the ladder
was done by identifying what I wanted to do next and teaching myself.

What's the next technology trend? I don't know, but I'm damn sure I'm
going to teach it to myself before Java on Linux jobs dry up. Although I
have a nagging suspicion that my next "technology" will be "how to manage
a team of programmers in India to make sure that what they produce isn't a
giant cluster **** like every other outsourcing project I've seen".

--
Paul Tomblin > http://xcski.com/blogs/pt/
"What we perceive as `God' is simply a by-product of our search for God."
- G'Kar.

[C J Campbell]

There is always a shortage of qualified pilots. Nevertheless, salaries
remain low and are likely to continue so. If you are in it for the money,
choose another a career.

[William W. Plummer]

Paul Tomblin wrote:

> In a previous article, "William W. Plummer" > said:
>
>>user wrote:
>>
>><snip>
>>
>>> Personally, I prefer working in IT, where the surest way to get
>>>a huge pay increase is simply to threaten to quit. ;-)
>>
>>Threatening to quit works until you are about 35 years old. Maybe a bit
>>longer if you walk on water. But later in life you can expect to be
>>pushed out in favor of younger, technology-current engineers.
>
>
> There is no hard and fast rule that says you can't stay technology-current
> as you age. I started off doing FORTRAN on mainframes, went to C and
> Unix, then C++ and Unix, and here I am at 44 doing Java on Linux, making
> 50% more than I was making when I was 35. And every step up the ladder
> was done by identifying what I wanted to do next and teaching myself.
>
> What's the next technology trend? I don't know, but I'm damn sure I'm
> going to teach it to myself before Java on Linux jobs dry up. Although I
> have a nagging suspicion that my next "technology" will be "how to manage
> a team of programmers in India to make sure that what they produce isn't a
> giant cluster **** like every other outsourcing project I've seen".

I agree and have a very parallel career to yours. But at about your
age, I got into management. And wound up doing DoD acquisitions work.
Technical work is much more satisfying (like flying!), but doesn't pay
as well and you don't get the management bonuses. I'm partially retired
now and can't quite justify purchasing "Dot Net" and taking classes.

And you are right about labor in India. Once they master the
technology, we will be the customer and will completely lack the ability
to compete.

[Murphy]

> Hi,
>
> I am a 35 year old software programmer thinking about a possible
> career change into aviation. I am currently working on my PPL.
> I've come to know some pilots who are currently flying for ASA and
> Comair. Both of them made UNDER 17,000.00 last year. They are both
> young guys without families, homes,etc.. so it's a bit easier for
> them to ride this through. Anyhow, since I haven't made up my mind
> yet, I would love to hear from any of you who have been in a similar
> situation. Especially if you are around my age, made the switch from a
> previous career, are married, have children and a mortgage. You get my
> point. How do you pay continue to pay the bills? I will obviously take
> a huge hit salary speaking, but I was shocked at how low the starting
> salaries are!! With my wife, children and mortgage, I could qualify
> for food stamps on that kind of pay. Also, since that would put my
> family below the poverty level, would I even have to pay income tax?
> Not to mention I will also have to make payments on student loans if
> I choose to go ahead with this.
>
> My CFI tells me to avoid the regionals at all costs. He suggests
> flying corporate, but after some research the starting salaries for a
> corporate pilot seem to be just as low. He also said that in a few
> years there will be a pilot shortage. If there is a pilot shortage in
> 3-5 years, what does this actually mean for newly rated commercial
> pilots who are looking for their first job? If anyone has any thoughts
> I would love to hear them. Thanks in advance!
>
> Vic

Don't be an idiot. Keep your job and support your family properly. Save
your money and go buy your own plane to take your kids flying in and to go
see grandma.

[Mike Rapoport]

"Vic" > wrote in message
m...
> Hi,
>
> I am a 35 year old software programmer thinking about a possible
> career change into aviation. I am currently working on my PPL.
> I've come to know some pilots who are currently flying for ASA and
> Comair. Both of them made UNDER 17,000.00 last year. They are both
> young guys without families, homes,etc.. so it's a bit easier for
> them to ride this through. Anyhow, since I haven't made up my mind
> yet, I would love to hear from any of you who have been in a similar
> situation. Especially if you are around my age, made the switch from a
> previous career, are married, have children and a mortgage. You get my
> point. How do you pay continue to pay the bills? I will obviously take
> a huge hit salary speaking, but I was shocked at how low the starting
> salaries are!! With my wife, children and mortgage, I could qualify
> for food stamps on that kind of pay. Also, since that would put my
> family below the poverty level, would I even have to pay income tax?
> Not to mention I will also have to make payments on student loans if
> I choose to go ahead with this.
>
> My CFI tells me to avoid the regionals at all costs. He suggests
> flying corporate, but after some research the starting salaries for a
> corporate pilot seem to be just as low. He also said that in a few
> years there will be a pilot shortage. If there is a pilot shortage in
> 3-5 years, what does this actually mean for newly rated commercial
> pilots who are looking for their first job? If anyone has any thoughts
> I would love to hear them. Thanks in advance!
>
> Vic

Salaries will always be low in an occupation considered to be glamorous.

Mike
MU-2

[user]

On Fri, 27 Aug 2004 14:04:29 +0000 (UTC), Paul Tomblin > wrote:
> In a previous article, "William W. Plummer" > said:
>>user wrote:
>>
>><snip>
>>> Personally, I prefer working in IT, where the surest way to get
>>> a huge pay increase is simply to threaten to quit. ;-)
>>
>>Threatening to quit works until you are about 35 years old. Maybe a bit
>>longer if you walk on water. But later in life you can expect to be
>>pushed out in favor of younger, technology-current engineers.
>
> There is no hard and fast rule that says you can't stay technology-current
> as you age. I started off doing FORTRAN on mainframes, went to C and
> Unix, then C++ and Unix, and here I am at 44 doing Java on Linux, making
> 50% more than I was making when I was 35. And every step up the ladder
> was done by identifying what I wanted to do next and teaching myself.
>

Unfortunately, that's unusual. My experience is that most developers
stop learning at about age 30. From that point on, they stagnate and
die. I can't count the number of times I've interviewed people,
asked them to tell me about an article/book/etc discussing current
technology and IT issues.... and find they haven't cracked a book
since college.

> What's the next technology trend? I don't know, but I'm damn sure I'm
> going to teach it to myself before Java on Linux jobs dry up. Although I
> have a nagging suspicion that my next "technology" will be "how to manage
> a team of programmers in India to make sure that what they produce isn't a
> giant cluster **** like every other outsourcing project I've seen".
>

Oh, but it worked so WELL at GC.....

- Rich

[user]

On Fri, 27 Aug 2004 14:33:05 GMT, William W. Plummer > wrote:
> Paul Tomblin wrote:
>
>> In a previous article, "William W. Plummer" > said:
>>
>>>user wrote:
>>>
>>><snip>
>>>
>>>> Personally, I prefer working in IT, where the surest way to get
>>>>a huge pay increase is simply to threaten to quit. ;-)
>>>
>>>Threatening to quit works until you are about 35 years old. Maybe a bit
>>>longer if you walk on water. But later in life you can expect to be
>>>pushed out in favor of younger, technology-current engineers.
>>
>>
>> There is no hard and fast rule that says you can't stay technology-current
>> as you age. I started off doing FORTRAN on mainframes, went to C and
>> Unix, then C++ and Unix, and here I am at 44 doing Java on Linux, making
>> 50% more than I was making when I was 35. And every step up the ladder
>> was done by identifying what I wanted to do next and teaching myself.
>>
>> What's the next technology trend? I don't know, but I'm damn sure I'm
>> going to teach it to myself before Java on Linux jobs dry up. Although I
>> have a nagging suspicion that my next "technology" will be "how to manage
>> a team of programmers in India to make sure that what they produce isn't a
>> giant cluster **** like every other outsourcing project I've seen".
>
> I agree and have a very parallel career to yours. But at about your
> age, I got into management. And wound up doing DoD acquisitions work.
> Technical work is much more satisfying (like flying!), but doesn't pay
> as well and you don't get the management bonuses. I'm partially retired
> now and can't quite justify purchasing "Dot Net" and taking classes.
>

That really depends where you work. Even after the dot-com bust,
you can find good development jobs that pay in the high 5/low
6 figures, and include substantial bonuses. Granted, they're not
easy to find, but they are there.


> And you are right about labor in India. Once they master the
> technology, we will be the customer and will completely lack the ability
> to compete.

Depends on the field. With one glaring exception, I've always worked
at manufacturing companies that are in need of constant systems changes
on the shop floor. When it comes to that kind of work, you need IT
people who can regularly walk around the machines on a regular basis,
and see what needs to be done. You're not going to get rapid and
relevant suggestions from a guy 6000 miles away who can't put
his hands on the binder, for example. But you'll going to have to
be the kind of developer who doesn't mind crawling around and getting
dirty, to make sure you're doing the right thing for what your
company needs. And if you're the sort of person who develops
only systems that don't need a hands-on-approach - well, all I can
say is, you'd better have some money saved up for a career change
10 years from now.

- Rich

[gatt]

"Vic" > wrote in message
> Anyhow, since I haven't made up my mind
> yet, I would love to hear from any of you who have been in a similar
> situation.

Virtually ALL of the thirtysomething pilots at the FBO I'm working out of
have at least a part-time regular job. My CFII is a Major in the air
national guard and a real estate agent.
Not sure what the other's do, but I work in computers too. (Same age, same
situation except no kids.) Just finishing up my IFR work, going for
commercial, figure my goal is just to pay off the education loan I took out
to get my commercial rating.

Good luck.

[gatt]

"Paul Tomblin" > wrote in message news:cgnf1d$js6

> Although I have a nagging suspicion that my next "technology" will be
"how to manage
> a team of programmers in India to make sure that what they produce isn't a
> giant cluster **** like every other outsourcing project I've seen".

*sigh* Truth right there. :<
-c

[gatt]

"Mike Rapoport" > wrote in message
news:zRHXc.126

> Salaries will always be low in an occupation considered to be glamorous.

The people paying the salaries, and the pilots earning them, ought to know
better. Salaries should always be high in an occupation considered (by the
general public) to be dangerous.

-c

[Marco Leon]

Vic,
I'm in almost the same exact situation (34, married, 2 kids, I.T. manager,
LOVE flying) and browsed different aviation career routes. I came to the
following conclusions:

1) Supporting the family is #1 and taking a big salary cut to expand a hobby
no matter how passionate you are about it is selfish--bordering on stupid
2) Flying is a tough life. My wife was a flight attendant for eight years
and the schedules stink. Her sister still does it and she's away from her
kids for many days at a time. Check out the divorce rate for airline pilots.
I hear they're high.
3) The ups and downs of the industry coupled with that seniority thing sucks
4) For many pilots, flying may lose its luster if you start feeling like a
glorified bus driver. Doesn't happen to all, mind you, but some.

With that, I've decided to:
* stay in IT
* get into management for the higher salaries
* buy a plane (kept it simple and [relatively] cheap--got a Piper Warrior)

99% of my flying is for pleasure. This became clear when my instructor
visited from his regional job and flew my plane. He had a ball simply
because it was all for fun with no procedures and no "must be there"
atmosphere present. I suspect that you are exploring a career as a pilot to
satisfy your passion of flying. What I'm trying to do now is get an IT job
in an aviation-related line of work. These positions are rare (especially
for Software Quality Assurance Management) and the timing may never connect
but if I'm lucky, it may present itself. The ultimate dream of course is to
become wealthy (lotto, owning your own business, whatever) and fly my own
personal jet (Citation or L-39--hey, I'm not picky). Most importantly, being
able to take the time off to fly as much as possible.

Take a long hard look at your situation. Maybe aircraft
ownership/partnership will satisfy your aviation bug enough to make it worth
while.

Good Luck,

Marco



"Vic" > wrote in message
m...
> Hi,
>
> I am a 35 year old software programmer thinking about a possible
> career change into aviation. I am currently working on my PPL.
> I've come to know some pilots who are currently flying for ASA and
> Comair. Both of them made UNDER 17,000.00 last year. They are both
> young guys without families, homes,etc.. so it's a bit easier for
> them to ride this through. Anyhow, since I haven't made up my mind
> yet, I would love to hear from any of you who have been in a similar
> situation. Especially if you are around my age, made the switch from a
> previous career, are married, have children and a mortgage. You get my
> point. How do you pay continue to pay the bills? I will obviously take
> a huge hit salary speaking, but I was shocked at how low the starting
> salaries are!! With my wife, children and mortgage, I could qualify
> for food stamps on that kind of pay. Also, since that would put my
> family below the poverty level, would I even have to pay income tax?
> Not to mention I will also have to make payments on student loans if
> I choose to go ahead with this.
>
> My CFI tells me to avoid the regionals at all costs. He suggests
> flying corporate, but after some research the starting salaries for a
> corporate pilot seem to be just as low. He also said that in a few
> years there will be a pilot shortage. If there is a pilot shortage in
> 3-5 years, what does this actually mean for newly rated commercial
> pilots who are looking for their first job? If anyone has any thoughts
> I would love to hear them. Thanks in advance!
>
> Vic

[Corky Scott]

On 27 Aug 2004 06:02:10 -0700, (Vic) wrote:

>Hi,
>
> I am a 35 year old software programmer thinking about a possible
>career change into aviation. I am currently working on my PPL.
>I've come to know some pilots who are currently flying for ASA and
>Comair. Both of them made UNDER 17,000.00 last year.

This will likely come as a huge shock to most who read this group but
Michael Moore, who is a virtual anti-christ, if my reading of the
group political direction is accurate, spent almost an entire chapter
in his best selling book "Stupid White Men" ranting about this
situation.

He was appalled. The only similar situation in the US to the amount
of training and certification, plus the enormous responsibility
necessary versus the pathetic payscale is teacher salaries. He ranted
about them too. But I think most teachers actually get paid more.

Corky Scott

[Tom S.]

"Mike Rapoport" > wrote in message
.net...
>
> "Vic" > wrote in message
> m...
> > Hi,
> >
> > Vic
>
> Salaries will always be low in an occupation considered to be glamorous.
>
Salaries will always be low (except for a VERY select few) in anything where
people PAY to do what someone else wants to get PAID to do.

[Darkwing Duck \(The Duck, The Myth, The Legend\)]

"Mike Rapoport" > wrote in message
.net...
>
> "Vic" > wrote in message
> m...
> > Hi,
> >
> > I am a 35 year old software programmer thinking about a possible
> > career change into aviation. I am currently working on my PPL.
> > I've come to know some pilots who are currently flying for ASA and
> > Comair. Both of them made UNDER 17,000.00 last year. They are both
> > young guys without families, homes,etc.. so it's a bit easier for
> > them to ride this through. Anyhow, since I haven't made up my mind
> > yet, I would love to hear from any of you who have been in a similar
> > situation. Especially if you are around my age, made the switch from a
> > previous career, are married, have children and a mortgage. You get my
> > point. How do you pay continue to pay the bills? I will obviously take
> > a huge hit salary speaking, but I was shocked at how low the starting
> > salaries are!! With my wife, children and mortgage, I could qualify
> > for food stamps on that kind of pay. Also, since that would put my
> > family below the poverty level, would I even have to pay income tax?
> > Not to mention I will also have to make payments on student loans if
> > I choose to go ahead with this.
> >
> > My CFI tells me to avoid the regionals at all costs. He suggests
> > flying corporate, but after some research the starting salaries for a
> > corporate pilot seem to be just as low. He also said that in a few
> > years there will be a pilot shortage. If there is a pilot shortage in
> > 3-5 years, what does this actually mean for newly rated commercial
> > pilots who are looking for their first job? If anyone has any thoughts
> > I would love to hear them. Thanks in advance!
> >
> > Vic
>
> Salaries will always be low in an occupation considered to be glamorous.
>
> Mike
> MU-2


They know your addicted and would do it for free!

[ET]

"Mike Rapoport" > wrote in
.net:

>
> "Vic" > wrote in message
> m...
>> Hi,
>>
>> I am a 35 year old software programmer thinking about a possible
>> career change into aviation. I am currently working on my PPL.
>> I've come to know some pilots who are currently flying for ASA and
>> Comair. Both of them made UNDER 17,000.00 last year. They are both
>> young guys without families, homes,etc.. so it's a bit easier for
>> them to ride this through. Anyhow, since I haven't made up my mind
>> yet, I would love to hear from any of you who have been in a similar
>> situation. Especially if you are around my age, made the switch from
>> a previous career, are married, have children and a mortgage. You get
>> my point. How do you pay continue to pay the bills? I will obviously
>> take a huge hit salary speaking, but I was shocked at how low the
>> starting salaries are!! With my wife, children and mortgage, I could
>> qualify for food stamps on that kind of pay. Also, since that would
>> put my family below the poverty level, would I even have to pay
>> income tax? Not to mention I will also have to make payments on
>> student loans if I choose to go ahead with this.
>>
>> My CFI tells me to avoid the regionals at all costs. He suggests
>> flying corporate, but after some research the starting salaries for a
>> corporate pilot seem to be just as low. He also said that in a few
>> years there will be a pilot shortage. If there is a pilot shortage in
>> 3-5 years, what does this actually mean for newly rated commercial
>> pilots who are looking for their first job? If anyone has any
>> thoughts I would love to hear them. Thanks in advance!
>>
>> Vic
>
> Salaries will always be low in an occupation considered to be
> glamorous.
>
> Mike
> MU-2
>
>

I disagree... Salaries will always be low in an occupation that is so
much fun, most of the participants would do it for free......

--
ET >:)


"A common mistake people make when trying to design something
completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete
fools."---- Douglas Adams

[gatt]

"user" > wrote in message

> Unfortunately, that's unusual. My experience is that most developers
> stop learning at about age 30. From that point on, they stagnate and
> die. I can't count the number of times I've interviewed people,
> asked them to tell me about an article/book/etc discussing current
> technology and IT issues.... and find they haven't cracked a book
> since college.

Hehe. I didn't go BACK to college (to learn Cisco CCNA and brush up on
UNIX, and commercial flight school) until I was 35.

-c

[Dan Luke]

"gatt" wrote:
> > Salaries will always be low in an occupation considered to be
glamorous.
>
> The people paying the salaries, and the pilots earning them, ought to know
> better. Salaries should always be high in an occupation considered (by
the
> general public) to be dangerous.

Should? Maybe so, but simple supply and demand is setting pilot salaries.
Mike is right: as long as there are plenty of people willing to accept the
joy of flying and the prestige of being a pilot as part of their
compensation, salaries will be correspondingly depressed.

The only reasons some senior U. S. airline pilots are making $200k/year now
are regulation and unions. Regulation is mostly gone and the wide open
market is destroying the unionized carriers. The $200K left-seater is a
fading anachronism.

Unless there is an industry-wide revival of the union movement, watch for
salaries to continue to decline for all pilots. It will be interesting to
see where pay bottoms out, and what the general quality of Part 121 pilots
will be when it does.
--
Dan
C-172RG at BFM

[Ash Wyllie]

Paul Tomblin opined

>In a previous article, (Vic) said:
>>I've come to know some pilots who are currently flying for ASA and
>>Comair. Both of them made UNDER 17,000.00 last year. They are both

>You know what they say: the only way to make a small fortune in aviation
>is to start with a large one.

And know when to stop.


-ash
Cthulhu for President!
Why vote for a lesser evil?

[Bill Denton]

May I suggest that you take your hiring blinders off?

I didn't even BECOME a developer until I was 38.

I didn't even finish junior college (I got hired after 1-1/2 years)

I am a damned good developer - MS Visual Basic, MS SQL Server, MS Visual
InterDev, NT/2000 Server, TCP/IP, Active Directory, DNS, DHCP. And I taught
myself all of these. I read a couple of chapters in a book on TCP/IP, and
another couple of chapters in a book on DNS. Otherwise, I learned it all
from MS helpfiles and MSDN.

I "skim" a few articles and magazines to find out what the new technologies
are, but I usually learn them without the aid of books are courses.

So, while I'm learning new technologies by non-traditional means, you are
interviewing people in a traditional, hidebound manner.

So who's out of step with current technologies and methodologies?




"user" > wrote in message
...
> On Fri, 27 Aug 2004 14:04:29 +0000 (UTC), Paul Tomblin
> wrote:
> > In a previous article, "William W. Plummer"
> said:
> >>user wrote:
> >>
> >><snip>
> >>> Personally, I prefer working in IT, where the surest way to get
> >>> a huge pay increase is simply to threaten to quit. ;-)
> >>
> >>Threatening to quit works until you are about 35 years old. Maybe a bit
> >>longer if you walk on water. But later in life you can expect to be
> >>pushed out in favor of younger, technology-current engineers.
> >
> > There is no hard and fast rule that says you can't stay
technology-current
> > as you age. I started off doing FORTRAN on mainframes, went to C and
> > Unix, then C++ and Unix, and here I am at 44 doing Java on Linux, making
> > 50% more than I was making when I was 35. And every step up the ladder
> > was done by identifying what I wanted to do next and teaching myself.
> >
>
> Unfortunately, that's unusual. My experience is that most developers
> stop learning at about age 30. From that point on, they stagnate and
> die. I can't count the number of times I've interviewed people,
> asked them to tell me about an article/book/etc discussing current
> technology and IT issues.... and find they haven't cracked a book
> since college.
>
> > What's the next technology trend? I don't know, but I'm damn sure I'm
> > going to teach it to myself before Java on Linux jobs dry up. Although
I
> > have a nagging suspicion that my next "technology" will be "how to
manage
> > a team of programmers in India to make sure that what they produce isn't
a
> > giant cluster **** like every other outsourcing project I've seen".
> >
>
> Oh, but it worked so WELL at GC.....
>
> - Rich
>

[Mike Rapoport]

Professional piloting is not dangerous and I doubt that the public percieves
it to be so, but even if it were, if you have more people wanting to be
pilots because it is percieved as glamorous, then salaries will be lower.

Mike
MU-2


"gatt" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Mike Rapoport" > wrote in message
> news:zRHXc.126
>
> > Salaries will always be low in an occupation considered to be glamorous.
>
> The people paying the salaries, and the pilots earning them, ought to know
> better. Salaries should always be high in an occupation considered (by
the
> general public) to be dangerous.
>
> -c
>
>

[Mike Rapoport]

"Dan Luke" > wrote in message
...
>
> "gatt" wrote:
> > > Salaries will always be low in an occupation considered to be
> glamorous.
> >
> > The people paying the salaries, and the pilots earning them, ought to
know
> > better. Salaries should always be high in an occupation considered (by
> the
> > general public) to be dangerous.
>
> Should? Maybe so, but simple supply and demand is setting pilot salaries.
> Mike is right: as long as there are plenty of people willing to accept the
> joy of flying and the prestige of being a pilot as part of their
> compensation, salaries will be correspondingly depressed.
>
> The only reasons some senior U. S. airline pilots are making $200k/year
now
> are regulation and unions. Regulation is mostly gone and the wide open
> market is destroying the unionized carriers. The $200K left-seater is a
> fading anachronism.
>
> Unless there is an industry-wide revival of the union movement, watch for
> salaries to continue to decline for all pilots. It will be interesting to
> see where pay bottoms out, and what the general quality of Part 121 pilots
> will be when it does.
> --
> Dan
> C-172RG at BFM
>

Additionally the $200k is somewhat of a farce because the pensions are so
underfunded. There is a recent newspaper article on the United
restructuring saying that many of the pilots recieving $175K a year in
retirement may be getting $28K from now on.

Mike
MU-2

[Mike Rapoport]

"ET" > wrote in message
...
> "Mike Rapoport" > wrote in
> .net:
>
> >
> > "Vic" > wrote in message
> > m...
> >> Hi,
> >>
> >> I am a 35 year old software programmer thinking about a possible
> >> career change into aviation. I am currently working on my PPL.
> >> I've come to know some pilots who are currently flying for ASA and
> >> Comair. Both of them made UNDER 17,000.00 last year. They are both
> >> young guys without families, homes,etc.. so it's a bit easier for
> >> them to ride this through. Anyhow, since I haven't made up my mind
> >> yet, I would love to hear from any of you who have been in a similar
> >> situation. Especially if you are around my age, made the switch from
> >> a previous career, are married, have children and a mortgage. You get
> >> my point. How do you pay continue to pay the bills? I will obviously
> >> take a huge hit salary speaking, but I was shocked at how low the
> >> starting salaries are!! With my wife, children and mortgage, I could
> >> qualify for food stamps on that kind of pay. Also, since that would
> >> put my family below the poverty level, would I even have to pay
> >> income tax? Not to mention I will also have to make payments on
> >> student loans if I choose to go ahead with this.
> >>
> >> My CFI tells me to avoid the regionals at all costs. He suggests
> >> flying corporate, but after some research the starting salaries for a
> >> corporate pilot seem to be just as low. He also said that in a few
> >> years there will be a pilot shortage. If there is a pilot shortage in
> >> 3-5 years, what does this actually mean for newly rated commercial
> >> pilots who are looking for their first job? If anyone has any
> >> thoughts I would love to hear them. Thanks in advance!
> >>
> >> Vic
> >
> > Salaries will always be low in an occupation considered to be
> > glamorous.
> >
> > Mike
> > MU-2
> >
> >
>
> I disagree... Salaries will always be low in an occupation that is so
> much fun, most of the participants would do it for free......

I don't think that we are disagreeing.

Mike
MU-2

> --
> ET >:)
>
>
> "A common mistake people make when trying to design something
> completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete
> fools."---- Douglas Adams

[kontiki]

Amen to to that. I myself got out of IT because of the "sweat shop'
atmosphere it has turned out to be. I moved from the big city to a
small town with a NICE airport but little activity.

Switching gears at 35 is a 50/50 proposition, I cerainly woudn't
recommend it to someone who was sane and wanted to make a really
good living... Right now, as long as I can make enough money for
my plane and hangar rent I'm happy.

:o) "What me worry?"

[ET]

"Mike Rapoport" > wrote in news:t4KXc.288$w%
:

>
> "ET" > wrote in message
> ...
>> "Mike Rapoport" > wrote in
>> .net:
>>
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Salaries will always be low in an occupation considered to be
>> > glamorous.
>> >
>> > Mike
>> > MU-2
>> >
>> >
>>
>> I disagree... Salaries will always be low in an occupation that is so
>> much fun, most of the participants would do it for free......
>
> I don't think that we are disagreeing.
>
> Mike
> MU-2
>
>> --
>> ET >:)

>

OK, we agree, just not on the reason :-)) although, now that I think
about it, that might be one component of the reason.....

--
ET >:)


"A common mistake people make when trying to design something
completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete
fools."---- Douglas Adams

[H.P.]

Keep your day job, get your ticket, buy a plane, start an aviation-related
side business (like a school or charter shop) and fly for your own account,
not someone else's. Who knows, you might succeed to the extent that you
could start a jet air taxi service like POGO with one of these new low-cost
jets recently certified or in development. If you run your own shop and hire
pilots, you'll appreciate the low starting salaries



"Vic" > wrote in message
m...
> Hi,
>
> I am a 35 year old software programmer thinking about a possible
> career change into aviation. I am currently working on my PPL.
> I've come to know some pilots who are currently flying for ASA and
> Comair. Both of them made UNDER 17,000.00 last year. They are both
> young guys without families, homes,etc.. so it's a bit easier for
> them to ride this through. Anyhow, since I haven't made up my mind
> yet, I would love to hear from any of you who have been in a similar
> situation. Especially if you are around my age, made the switch from a
> previous career, are married, have children and a mortgage. You get my
> point. How do you pay continue to pay the bills? I will obviously take
> a huge hit salary speaking, but I was shocked at how low the starting
> salaries are!! With my wife, children and mortgage, I could qualify
> for food stamps on that kind of pay. Also, since that would put my
> family below the poverty level, would I even have to pay income tax?
> Not to mention I will also have to make payments on student loans if
> I choose to go ahead with this.
>
> My CFI tells me to avoid the regionals at all costs. He suggests
> flying corporate, but after some research the starting salaries for a
> corporate pilot seem to be just as low. He also said that in a few
> years there will be a pilot shortage. If there is a pilot shortage in
> 3-5 years, what does this actually mean for newly rated commercial
> pilots who are looking for their first job? If anyone has any thoughts
> I would love to hear them. Thanks in advance!
>
> Vic

[Michael]

(Vic) wrote
> I am a 35 year old software programmer thinking about a possible
> career change into aviation.

You and about 20,000 like you.

> I've come to know some pilots who are currently flying for ASA and
> Comair. Both of them made UNDER 17,000.00 last year.

Yup, that's what starting salaries are like.

> My CFI tells me to avoid the regionals at all costs. He suggests
> flying corporate, but after some research the starting salaries for a
> corporate pilot seem to be just as low.

They are, and top end salaries are lower than the airlines.

> He also said that in a few
> years there will be a pilot shortage.

There are periodically shortages of highly qualified pilots with
plenty of jet PIC time who are willing to take entry-level jobs -
meaning military pilots. Truly, I don't even see that on the horizon,
but it could happen.

> If there is a pilot shortage in
> 3-5 years, what does this actually mean for newly rated commercial
> pilots who are looking for their first job?

It will be easier to find a job as a CFI, where if you work really
hard, don't take any weekends off, and hustle to get students you
might make $13K/year if you're lucky. Nothing else. There will NEVER
be a shortage of such pilots. You know how long it takes to turn a
college-educated private pilot with 80 hours into a
commercial/multi/IFR/CFI/CFII/MEI? 90 days. AllATP's does it all the
time. With that short a pipeline, what makes you think there could
ever be a shortage?

Michael

[Newps]

William W. Plummer wrote:
and Air Traffic Controllers at
> 56.

Not anymore. The age 56 rule is on its last gasping breath. The FAA
can already allow needed controllers to stay past 56 and within a few
years the limit will be gone all together.

[Newps]

gatt wrote:


>
>
> The people paying the salaries, and the pilots earning them, ought to know
> better. Salaries should always be high in an occupation considered (by the
> general public) to be dangerous.

Why? Being a pilot flying an RJ nowadays is easier than being a bus
driver.

[Newps]

Mike Rapoport wrote:


>
>
> Additionally the $200k is somewhat of a farce because the pensions are so
> underfunded. There is a recent newspaper article on the United
> restructuring saying that many of the pilots recieving $175K a year in
> retirement may be getting $28K from now on.

One of the guys at work his father is a retired United pilot. They are
expecting to lose everything. No pension. Also United is not paying
into the pension fund, as ordered by the bankruptcy court.

[Here to there]

On Fri, 27 Aug 2004 11:56:17 -0500, Bill Denton > wrote:
> May I suggest that you take your hiring blinders off?
>
> I didn't even BECOME a developer until I was 38.
>
> I didn't even finish junior college (I got hired after 1-1/2 years)
>

But by that very fact, you're showing that you're not
a traditional developer. Let me put it this way - how many people
do you know who took IT/software development courses in college,
graduated by age 23, and are still active developers, with current
knowledge, 20 years later? Not many, I'd wager.

> I am a damned good developer - MS Visual Basic, MS SQL Server, MS Visual
> InterDev, NT/2000 Server, TCP/IP, Active Directory, DNS, DHCP. And I taught
> myself all of these. I read a couple of chapters in a book on TCP/IP, and
> another couple of chapters in a book on DNS. Otherwise, I learned it all
> from MS helpfiles and MSDN.
>

What you're describing is programming knowledge - a relatively small part of
software development. A person can know Strousoup inside and out, be able
to recite Win32 API calls at the drop of a hat, but that doesn't
mean they can develop software. For that, you need, at the very
least, domain knowledge. You can't built good software for doing
weight and balance calculations without knowing a little bit of
physics and math. You can't build a good system for controlling an offset
printer without knowing how printing presses work, etc. And these
are not things that you learn from a help file or MSDN.

> I "skim" a few articles and magazines to find out what the new technologies
> are, but I usually learn them without the aid of books are courses.
>

If I was interviewing you, I'd ask what resources you were using.
And I'd weigh the responses very carefully - if you got your info from,
say, PC Magazine, as opposed to the Java Developers journal or
SysAdmin, my opinion would be quite different based on your answer,
because there are a lot of people who read, but don't question what
they read, or try to evaluate the accuracy of the articles. If you said
that you read comp.lang.perl, and could tell me who Tom and Abigail are,
I might even hire you on the spot.

> So, while I'm learning new technologies by non-traditional means, you are
> interviewing people in a traditional, hidebound manner.
>

Oh, I don't know. Interviewing people while hiking the canal
path probably isn't too traditional. The question asking how many
barbers there are in the U.S. tends to confuse them, too.

> So who's out of step with current technologies and methodologies?
>
Probably the person who doesn't read for content, I expect.

- Rich

[C Kingsbury]

"Mike Rapoport" > wrote in message >...

> Salaries will always be low in an occupation considered to be glamorous.

When was the last time a large segment of the population considering
flying a Beech 1900 or CRJ glamorous? Once upon a time, back in Pan
Am's glory days perhaps, it was a "rock star" kind of job. Now most
people view them as bus drivers who program autopilots. And most of
them don't even know about the dog!

To be fair, I'd love to have my brother-in-law's job. He flies 767s
for UPS all over the world, spending two days at a time in downtown
hotels in Manila, Bangkok, Singapore, Bombay, Dubai, Copenhagen, etc.
Good pay, expenses, etc. I'm 28 and single, he's 42 and has an
adorable 2 year old son. Anyway, I'd go that way (I work in IT sales
now) but I also watched him work his way up from CFI through traffic
watch, night freight, and so on over close to ten years before he got
that "glamorous" job that one little medical issue could yank out from
under him.

Best,
-cwk.

[Bill Denton]

My comments are in the body text...

"Here to there" > wrote in message
...
> On Fri, 27 Aug 2004 11:56:17 -0500, Bill Denton >
wrote:
> > May I suggest that you take your hiring blinders off?
> >
> > I didn't even BECOME a developer until I was 38.
> >
> > I didn't even finish junior college (I got hired after 1-1/2 years)
> >
>
> But by that very fact, you're showing that you're not
> a traditional developer. Let me put it this way - how many people
> do you know who took IT/software development courses in college,
> graduated by age 23, and are still active developers, with current
> knowledge, 20 years later? Not many, I'd wager.

I'm not sure what you are saying/asking here, but in my own case the only
language I learned in college was COBOL, and I have not written a single
line of COBOL since I left school. I taught myself dBase II while I was in
school, and that was what I used on my first job.


>
> > I am a damned good developer - MS Visual Basic, MS SQL Server, MS Visual
> > InterDev, NT/2000 Server, TCP/IP, Active Directory, DNS, DHCP. And I
taught
> > myself all of these. I read a couple of chapters in a book on TCP/IP,
and
> > another couple of chapters in a book on DNS. Otherwise, I learned it all
> > from MS helpfiles and MSDN.
> >
>
> What you're describing is programming knowledge - a relatively small
part of
> software development. A person can know Strousoup inside and out, be able
> to recite Win32 API calls at the drop of a hat, but that doesn't
> mean they can develop software. For that, you need, at the very
> least, domain knowledge. You can't built good software for doing
> weight and balance calculations without knowing a little bit of
> physics and math. You can't build a good system for controlling an offset
> printer without knowing how printing presses work, etc. And these
> are not things that you learn from a help file or MSDN.

Technologies, and staying on top of them, was the portion of the post I was
responding to. That's why I discussed technologies.

But I read Date & Codd and began implementing their relational database
theories back in the days when they could only be barely implemented in PC
databases. I am probably one of the finest designers of relational databases
in the game.

As far as W & B software goes, I wrote a COGO land surveying program without
knowing the slightest bit of trigonometry (or whatever math I used); I just
had someone give me the formulas and the rest of it was just a matter of
manipulating variables. For me, W & B would be the same situation, just give
me the forumulas and I won't need to know about physics, although I would
need to know some very basic math.

I wouldn't need to know anything about printing presses to write a program
to control one. But given the task, I would spend some amount of time with
various people so I could put together a well designed user interface.

And speaking of user interfaces, I independently developed a large number of
the interfaces you see today based on observations of the world around me
and a knowledge of how people work.

Believe me, I know that development is far more than just technologies.

>
> > I "skim" a few articles and magazines to find out what the new
technologies
> > are, but I usually learn them without the aid of books are courses.
> >
>
> If I was interviewing you, I'd ask what resources you were using.
> And I'd weigh the responses very carefully - if you got your info from,
> say, PC Magazine, as opposed to the Java Developers journal or
> SysAdmin, my opinion would be quite different based on your answer,
> because there are a lot of people who read, but don't question what
> they read, or try to evaluate the accuracy of the articles. If you said
> that you read comp.lang.perl, and could tell me who Tom and Abigail are,
> I might even hire you on the spot.

And here is where your thinking goes off track. I don't develop in Java and
I don't intend to, so Java Developers journal would be useless to me. I'm
not familiar with SysAdmin, but based on the title, I would guess that it
has to do with datacenter operations or possibly UNIX. I don't run a
datacenter or do UNIX, so SysAdmin would be useless to me.

So, based on the work I actually do, PC Magazine could well be the most
valuable resource to me (although I'm not saying it is).

As far as comp.lang.perl and Tom and Abigail go, I don't do perl and I have
no use for any of this.

However I do read Windows & .NET Magazine, Microsoft Certified Professional
Magazine, and MSDN Magazine, all of which are relevant to my work and which
I read. Would you care to have me grill you on the last couple of copies of
each?

Now, you would never have the opportunity to interview me because it appears
you are not a Microsoft shop and I'm a Microsoft developer. I would not
waste your time or my time by applying for a position I am not qualified
for.

But throwing out the names of a few magazines doesn't demonstrate a
programmer's abilities any more than throwing out the names of a few
technologies. And if these are the criteria upon which you base your
interviews, that's really sad. You're probably missing a lot of good people
who just don't happen to read the magazines you do. That's a bit
short-sighted in my book.

>
> > So, while I'm learning new technologies by non-traditional means, you
are
> > interviewing people in a traditional, hidebound manner.
> >
>
> Oh, I don't know. Interviewing people while hiking the canal
> path probably isn't too traditional. The question asking how many
> barbers there are in the U.S. tends to confuse them, too.
>
> > So who's out of step with current technologies and methodologies?
> >
> Probably the person who doesn't read for content, I expect.
>
> - Rich
>

[The Weiss Family]

> There is no hard and fast rule that says you can't stay technology-current
> as you age. I started off doing FORTRAN on mainframes, went to C and
> Unix, then C++ and Unix, and here I am at 44 doing Java on Linux, making
> 50% more than I was making when I was 35. And every step up the ladder
> was done by identifying what I wanted to do next and teaching myself.

Amen.
I've gone from 8051 assembly to C++ on VxWorks and Unix.
Back to HW design, then FPGAs, and back again.

>
> What's the next technology trend? I don't know, but I'm damn sure I'm
> going to teach it to myself before Java on Linux jobs dry up. Although I
> have a nagging suspicion that my next "technology" will be "how to manage
> a team of programmers in India to make sure that what they produce isn't a
> giant cluster **** like every other outsourcing project I've seen".

That's pretty much where I see my career going, too!

Adam

[Jon Woellhaf]

"Here to there" wrote, "... The question asking how many barbers there are
in the U.S. tends to confuse [people he's interviewing], too."

How many barbers in th eUS? None. They are now all hair stylists, coiffeurs,
hairdressers, beauticians, cosmetologists, folicular engineers, or personal
appearance consultants.

[B25flyer]

>He also said that in a few
>years there will be a pilot shortage.

In 1903 there were two pilots and one airplane in Kitty Hawk.....there was not
a pilot shortage then... and there never will be.

Walt

[Gig Giacona]

"Jon Woellhaf" > wrote in message
news:byNXc.320527$a24.128126@attbi_s03...
> "Here to there" wrote, "... The question asking how many barbers there are
> in the U.S. tends to confuse [people he's interviewing], too."
>
> How many barbers in th eUS? None. They are now all hair stylists,
coiffeurs,
> hairdressers, beauticians, cosmetologists, folicular engineers, or
personal
> appearance consultants.
>
>

Not mine! He is an honest to goodnesss BARBER. If you called him anything
else he'd bitch slap you and you'd stay bitch slapped.

[PT Ball]

Vic,

I'm 35 and I have left a flying career for the IT field. I went back
to school this year, and got a job out of it. My starting salary in
IT is the same as it was after being in the commuters for 10
years(started at 16K/year). It was not worth torturing my family
anymore. And, 6 out of 8 of my collegues that made it out and got on
with the majors, have been laid off since 2002, after maybe a year or
two with them. I don't recommend it to anyone unless your in college
and just have to give it that shot like we all wanted to.

I'd recommend getting your IFR, commercial, CFI, and if you have the
spare cash your multi engine rating. I keep active flying by flight
instructing. You can do it on the side, and still support your
family. If you get busy enough w/ students, you can do IT consulting
on the side.

Good Luck.
Peter

(Vic) wrote in message >...
> Hi,
>
> I am a 35 year old software programmer thinking about a possible
> career change into aviation. I am currently working on my PPL.
> I've come to know some pilots who are currently flying for ASA and
> Comair. Both of them made UNDER 17,000.00 last year. They are both
> young guys without families, homes,etc.. so it's a bit easier for
> them to ride this through. Anyhow, since I haven't made up my mind
> yet, I would love to hear from any of you who have been in a similar
> situation. Especially if you are around my age, made the switch from a
> previous career, are married, have children and a mortgage. You get my
> point. How do you pay continue to pay the bills? I will obviously take
> a huge hit salary speaking, but I was shocked at how low the starting
> salaries are!! With my wife, children and mortgage, I could qualify
> for food stamps on that kind of pay. Also, since that would put my
> family below the poverty level, would I even have to pay income tax?
> Not to mention I will also have to make payments on student loans if
> I choose to go ahead with this.
>
> My CFI tells me to avoid the regionals at all costs. He suggests
> flying corporate, but after some research the starting salaries for a
> corporate pilot seem to be just as low. He also said that in a few
> years there will be a pilot shortage. If there is a pilot shortage in
> 3-5 years, what does this actually mean for newly rated commercial
> pilots who are looking for their first job? If anyone has any thoughts
> I would love to hear them. Thanks in advance!
>
> Vic

[Gary Drescher]

"Michael" > wrote in message
m...
> There will NEVER be a shortage of such pilots.
> You know how long it takes to turn a
> college-educated private pilot with 80 hours into a
> commercial/multi/IFR/CFI/CFII/MEI? 90 days. AllATP's does it all the
> time. With that short a pipeline, what makes you think there could
> ever be a shortage?

Yup. And even the college requirement (for airlines) is just a way to winnow
the glut of qualified applicants. Nothing about flying requires more than a
high-school education.

--Gary

[Dave Stadt]

"Vic" > wrote in message
m...
> Hi,
>
> I am a 35 year old software programmer thinking about a possible
> career change into aviation. I am currently working on my PPL.
> I've come to know some pilots who are currently flying for ASA and
> Comair. Both of them made UNDER 17,000.00 last year. They are both
> young guys without families, homes,etc.. so it's a bit easier for
> them to ride this through. Anyhow, since I haven't made up my mind
> yet, I would love to hear from any of you who have been in a similar
> situation. Especially if you are around my age, made the switch from a
> previous career, are married, have children and a mortgage. You get my
> point. How do you pay continue to pay the bills? I will obviously take
> a huge hit salary speaking, but I was shocked at how low the starting
> salaries are!! With my wife, children and mortgage, I could qualify
> for food stamps on that kind of pay. Also, since that would put my
> family below the poverty level, would I even have to pay income tax?
> Not to mention I will also have to make payments on student loans if
> I choose to go ahead with this.
>
> My CFI tells me to avoid the regionals at all costs. He suggests
> flying corporate, but after some research the starting salaries for a
> corporate pilot seem to be just as low. He also said that in a few
> years there will be a pilot shortage.

More than likely what will happen is that in 3 to 5 years $17K will be
considered an excellent salary. There never has been a pilot shortage.
Airlines start to hire and people think it is a pilot shortage. It is simply
a bump in hiring.

If there is a pilot shortage in
> 3-5 years, what does this actually mean for newly rated commercial
> pilots who are looking for their first job? If anyone has any thoughts
> I would love to hear them. Thanks in advance!
>
> Vic

[Michael]

"Dan Luke" > wrote
> market is destroying the unionized carriers. The $200K left-seater is a
> fading anachronism.

Actually, Southwest is unionized and they're doing great. Of course
they are not an ALPA shop, and their pilots don't make what the rest
of the industry is making. Still, they do fairly well - and Southwest
is probably a pretty good indication of where the salaries will
stabilize. Maybe.

For now, Southwest still has to compete with other carriers in hiring.
I have a feeling most of those other carriers are not going to be
around much longer. Having a bunch of senior jet pilots dumped on the
market is going to do amazing things.

Realistically, at the airline captain level, you're talking about a
job with supervisory duties and technical proficiency requirements
that requires a college degree in a reasonably technical subject,
expensive training, paying a lot of dues, and at least 10 years of
post-college experience. What's more, lots of those who head in that
direction don't make it. That calls for a salary in the low six/high
five figures to make it worthwhile, and that's where salaries are
going to stabilize.

> It will be interesting to
> see where pay bottoms out, and what the general quality of Part 121 pilots
> will be when it does.

My bet is that is stabilizes right around $100K in today's dollars for
major airline captains, and the quality of the pilots (as measured in
accident rate) will not change.

Michael

[Mike Rapoport]

Maybe glamourous wasn't the best word, but you illustrate the point of
people being motivated for reasons beyond the pay.

Mike
MU-2




"C Kingsbury" > wrote in message
om...
> "Mike Rapoport" > wrote in message
>...
>
> > Salaries will always be low in an occupation considered to be glamorous.
>
> When was the last time a large segment of the population considering
> flying a Beech 1900 or CRJ glamorous? Once upon a time, back in Pan
> Am's glory days perhaps, it was a "rock star" kind of job. Now most
> people view them as bus drivers who program autopilots. And most of
> them don't even know about the dog!
>
> To be fair, I'd love to have my brother-in-law's job. He flies 767s
> for UPS all over the world, spending two days at a time in downtown
> hotels in Manila, Bangkok, Singapore, Bombay, Dubai, Copenhagen, etc.
> Good pay, expenses, etc. I'm 28 and single, he's 42 and has an
> adorable 2 year old son. Anyway, I'd go that way (I work in IT sales
> now) but I also watched him work his way up from CFI through traffic
> watch, night freight, and so on over close to ten years before he got
> that "glamorous" job that one little medical issue could yank out from
> under him.
>
> Best,
> -cwk.

[Dan Truesdell]

Vic,

When I went to college (spent the first semester at Embry-Riddle), I had
to chose between flying and engineering. I couldn't afford the flying,
so I chose engineering, figuring (correctly) that I could then afford to
fly. That was 25 years ago. I now do C++, Java, Windoze, and Linux
(scientific and engineering software), got my IR last year, and am
working on my commercial now. Not to fly in the majors. I just love
the idea of taking people for rides and would love to have the
opportunity to do scenic flights during foliage season. If I were to
pick my dream job, it would be teaching high school physics. At this
point in my life, though, I have a wife, kid, and mortgage (and part of
a plane) to support. Starting salary, though better than flying, is
around $26K here. Maybe in 10 years, I can teach and fly a bit on the
side, but not now. I fly for fun (and it is fun) when I want. I chose
software development as a career, partially because I could have more of
a choice where to live (one of the reasons I got out of Aeronautical
Engineering). I guess this is a long-winded way of saying: If you are
truly that passionate about flying, see if you can make it work. Just
recognize the hurdles, and realize that, at this stage in your life,
it's not just about you. Some of the other posters have made references
to the time away from home. Personally, that wouldn't bother me if I
only had a wife, but kids are an entirely different story. They're only
5 once.

Vic wrote:
> Hi,
>
> I am a 35 year old software programmer thinking about a possible
> career change into aviation. I am currently working on my PPL.
> I've come to know some pilots who are currently flying for ASA and
> Comair. Both of them made UNDER 17,000.00 last year. They are both
> young guys without families, homes,etc.. so it's a bit easier for
> them to ride this through. Anyhow, since I haven't made up my mind
> yet, I would love to hear from any of you who have been in a similar
> situation. Especially if you are around my age, made the switch from a
> previous career, are married, have children and a mortgage. You get my
> point. How do you pay continue to pay the bills? I will obviously take
> a huge hit salary speaking, but I was shocked at how low the starting
> salaries are!! With my wife, children and mortgage, I could qualify
> for food stamps on that kind of pay. Also, since that would put my
> family below the poverty level, would I even have to pay income tax?
> Not to mention I will also have to make payments on student loans if
> I choose to go ahead with this.
>
> My CFI tells me to avoid the regionals at all costs. He suggests
> flying corporate, but after some research the starting salaries for a
> corporate pilot seem to be just as low. He also said that in a few
> years there will be a pilot shortage. If there is a pilot shortage in
> 3-5 years, what does this actually mean for newly rated commercial
> pilots who are looking for their first job? If anyone has any thoughts
> I would love to hear them. Thanks in advance!
>
> Vic


--
Remove "2PLANES" to reply.

[Rutger]

Flying ceases to be fun when it becomes work.

[G.R. Patterson III]

Paul Tomblin wrote:
>
> What's the next technology trend? I don't know, but I'm damn sure I'm
> going to teach it to myself before Java on Linux jobs dry up.

Yep, you've done things the right way so far. I missed the step over to C++ and
sidestepped to writing requirements. Wrong move, but the job market's picking up
there again. Pick up PERL while you're at it. For some reason, that's hot now.

George Patterson
If you want to know God's opinion of money, just look at the people
he gives it to.

[William W. Plummer]

G.R. Patterson III wrote:
>
> Paul Tomblin wrote:
>
>>What's the next technology trend? I don't know, but I'm damn sure I'm
>>going to teach it to myself before Java on Linux jobs dry up.
>
>
> Yep, you've done things the right way so far. I missed the step over to C++ and
> sidestepped to writing requirements. Wrong move, but the job market's picking up
> there again. Pick up PERL while you're at it. For some reason, that's hot now.
>
> George Patterson
> If you want to know God's opinion of money, just look at the people
> he gives it to.
I worked at MIT Lincoln Laboratory a long time ago. It was strongly
oriented toward hardware devices, circuits, radars, etc. Software
engineers were second class citizens. My boss used to snarl, "If you
can program a computer, you'll never have to work for a living."

[Dan Luke]

"Michael" wrote:
>> market is destroying the unionized carriers. The $200K left-seater
>> is a
>> fading anachronism.
>
> Actually, Southwest is unionized and they're doing great. Of course
> they are not an ALPA shop, and their pilots don't make what the rest
> of the industry is making. Still, they do fairly well - and Southwest
> is probably a pretty good indication of where the salaries will
> stabilize. Maybe.

Southwest is a very special case. It's the child of a brilliant
manager/founder. Such individuals are rare - vanishingly scarce in
publicly traded corporations.

Your point is valid, though: management likes to blame unions for
competitive disadvantages, but management agreed to those contracts.
Often this is a case of throwing money at unhappy people because it's
easier than dealing imaginatively with the workforce.

[snip]
>
> My bet is that is stabilizes right around $100K in today's dollars for
> major airline captains, and the quality of the pilots (as measured in
> accident rate) will not change.

I'll bet you lunch at Carl's that it will be ~$75K in today's dollars in
10 years. Hope I can still fly in to collect.
--
Dan
C172RG at BFM

[Mike Rapoport]

"Dan Luke" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Michael" wrote:
> >> market is destroying the unionized carriers. The $200K left-seater
> >> is a
> >> fading anachronism.
> >
> > Actually, Southwest is unionized and they're doing great. Of course
> > they are not an ALPA shop, and their pilots don't make what the rest
> > of the industry is making. Still, they do fairly well - and Southwest
> > is probably a pretty good indication of where the salaries will
> > stabilize. Maybe.
>
> Southwest is a very special case. It's the child of a brilliant
> manager/founder. Such individuals are rare - vanishingly scarce in
> publicly traded corporations.
>

I don't know if I would agree that SWA success was dependent on brilliance.
It seems pretty simple. SWA seems to be the only airline that realizes who
the customer is, what they want and set up a business to provide it. The
other airlines talk about restructuring but, as soon as the economy gets
good, they go back to their old ways and the cycle repeats.

Mike
MU-2

[Bill Hale]

So $17K? This is up quite a bit. There must be a shortage.

They used to charge YOU for the opportunity
of pounding around as a first officer in their 1900s. After all, the
training
was worth a lot. Kinda an "intern" program, I guess.

A friend was in Continentals 1900 program the day of 9-11. Classes
cancelled.

Another friend is an aircraft owner, econ full professor, highly
qualified human being.

He took his sabbatical and went to work for Quarter Share flying
Citations
right seat. On two weeks, off two. Decent pay. Great training.

He quit after about 6 months and paid them $10K or so reimbursement
for all
the training.

Reasons:

1) The scheduling interfered with teenage kid activities too much

2) Airplane wasn't going where he wanted; too much dead time

3) Didn't turn out to be as much fun as he thought.

4) Didn't turn out to be as much fun as he thought.

Probably, the time off was much worse than being a professor :-)

So you can see his new book, "Structured IFR" which is a real
winner. He wrote that during his spare prof time.

Bill Hale

[Darrell]

Trying for an aviation career is somewhat like trying to be a rock star.
Because of the "glamour" of the job and the big bucks you can make it you
make it to the "big time" airlines, people are willing to work for peanuts
to have a chance to grab the brass ring. But unlike artists, pilots not
only have to work for almost nothing, they also have to first spend lots of
their own money to gain the experience and ratings necessary to fly for pay.

--

B-58 Hustler History: http://members.cox.net/dschmidt1/
-

"Vic" > wrote in message
m...
> Hi,
>
> I am a 35 year old software programmer thinking about a possible
> career change into aviation. I am currently working on my PPL.
> I've come to know some pilots who are currently flying for ASA and
> Comair. Both of them made UNDER 17,000.00 last year. They are both
> young guys without families, homes,etc.. so it's a bit easier for
> them to ride this through. Anyhow, since I haven't made up my mind
> yet, I would love to hear from any of you who have been in a similar
> situation. Especially if you are around my age, made the switch from a
> previous career, are married, have children and a mortgage. You get my
> point. How do you pay continue to pay the bills? I will obviously take
> a huge hit salary speaking, but I was shocked at how low the starting
> salaries are!! With my wife, children and mortgage, I could qualify
> for food stamps on that kind of pay. Also, since that would put my
> family below the poverty level, would I even have to pay income tax?
> Not to mention I will also have to make payments on student loans if
> I choose to go ahead with this.
>
> My CFI tells me to avoid the regionals at all costs. He suggests
> flying corporate, but after some research the starting salaries for a
> corporate pilot seem to be just as low. He also said that in a few
> years there will be a pilot shortage. If there is a pilot shortage in
> 3-5 years, what does this actually mean for newly rated commercial
> pilots who are looking for their first job? If anyone has any thoughts
> I would love to hear them. Thanks in advance!
>
> Vic

[Paul Tomblin]

In a previous article, "G.R. Patterson III" > said:
>Paul Tomblin wrote:
>> What's the next technology trend? I don't know, but I'm damn sure I'm
>> going to teach it to myself before Java on Linux jobs dry up.
>
>Yep, you've done things the right way so far. I missed the step over to C++ and
>sidestepped to writing requirements. Wrong move, but the job market's picking up
>there again. Pick up PERL while you're at it. For some reason, that's hot now.

navaid.com is writen in perl. Even though I've used it for a pretty major
chunk of code like that, I still think of it as a toy language. My next
personal project will probably be in Python.

--
Paul Tomblin > http://xcski.com/blogs/pt/
When the revolution comes, we'll need a longer wall.
-- Tom De Mulder

[Paul Folbrecht]

> There is no hard and fast rule that says you can't stay technology-current
> as you age. I started off doing FORTRAN on mainframes, went to C and
> Unix, then C++ and Unix, and here I am at 44 doing Java on Linux, making
> 50% more than I was making when I was 35. And every step up the ladder
> was done by identifying what I wanted to do next and teaching myself.

And, of course, "Java on Linux" is identical to "Java on Windows", "Java
on OS X", and anything else you can name. :-) My team has produced 100K
lines of code in the last two years developing on OS X and Linux and
deploying the client on Windows (2K & XP) and the server on another
version of Linux, with never a single line of code modified for a
specific platform.

> What's the next technology trend? I don't know, but I'm damn sure I'm
> going to teach it to myself before Java on Linux jobs dry up. Although I

I've been doing nothing but Java for 7 years straight now and it's not
going anywhere for a long time to come, that's for sure...

> have a nagging suspicion that my next "technology" will be "how to manage
> a team of programmers in India to make sure that what they produce isn't a
> giant cluster **** like every other outsourcing project I've seen".

Amen to that.

>

[Paul Folbrecht]

> And you are right about labor in India. Once they master the
> technology, we will be the customer and will completely lack the ability
> to compete.

Fortunately or unfortunately, they don't seem to be moving towards that
point very quickly. The thing about a lot of them is that they are into
the field solely for the money and thus lack passion for the art. It
shows, in my experience.

[Dan Truesdell]

Just talked with a very skilled associate. He prefers Java over C++,
and Python over Java. I've only done a few small projects in Python and
PERL. I found PERL to be a strange language to work with (you
definitely need your PERL hat on, like Scheme).

Paul Tomblin wrote:
> In a previous article, "G.R. Patterson III" > said:
>
>>Paul Tomblin wrote:
>>
>>>What's the next technology trend? I don't know, but I'm damn sure I'm
>>>going to teach it to myself before Java on Linux jobs dry up.
>>
>>Yep, you've done things the right way so far. I missed the step over to C++ and
>>sidestepped to writing requirements. Wrong move, but the job market's picking up
>>there again. Pick up PERL while you're at it. For some reason, that's hot now.
>
>
> navaid.com is writen in perl. Even though I've used it for a pretty major
> chunk of code like that, I still think of it as a toy language. My next
> personal project will probably be in Python.
>


--
Remove "2PLANES" to reply.

[Wizard of Draws]

On 8/28/04 1:34 PM, in article _m3Yc.159179$sh.9794@fed1read06, "Darrell"
> wrote:

> Trying for an aviation career is somewhat like trying to be a rock star.
> Because of the "glamour" of the job and the big bucks you can make it you
> make it to the "big time" airlines, people are willing to work for peanuts
> to have a chance to grab the brass ring. But unlike artists, pilots not
> only have to work for almost nothing, they also have to first spend lots of
> their own money to gain the experience and ratings necessary to fly for pay.

I'd say most artists spend more time learning their craft than pilots. I've
been drawing since I could hold a crayon and that doesn't seem to be
unusual. I remember drawing a caricature of my mother in the dirt as a kid.

It took a lot of money and time (I gave Uncle Sam 4 years in order to have
him to pay for college) to get to the point that people are willing to pay
me for my artwork, and it took a lot of experience (which cost me more
money) before I learned how to charge anywhere near what I'm worth.

But like flying, I can't begrudge a single moment of the work that it took
to get to this point. I have a talent that a lot of people envy and will pay
for, and it finances my flying. How many people have that opportunity?

It's a great time and place to be alive. I was born at a time in history
where piloting a private plane is (nearly) commonplace, the US lets me fly
virtually unrestricted, the internet gives me a global client base to help
pay for it, and technologies like GPS makes it so much safer and easier to
get from place to place I almost feel like I'm cheating when I use it.
--
Jeff 'The Wizard of Draws' Bucchino
Cartoons with a Touch of Magic�
www.wizardofdraws.com
www.cartoonclipart.com

[ShawnD2112]

Jeff,
Appropos of nothing except I decided, after following your posts for some
time now, to check out your artwork. I'm a bit disappointed by the quick
registration. Only "Mr", "Mrs" or "Miss" are available title options.
Given your presence here, where's "Skygod" or "Pilot Extraordinaire" for all
your rap buddies?? :-)

Great work, by the way. You're right, too. I do envy your talent!

Shawn
"Wizard of Draws" > wrote in message
news:BD565B98.1E41D%jeffbREMOVE@REMOVEwizardofdraw s.com...
> On 8/28/04 1:34 PM, in article _m3Yc.159179$sh.9794@fed1read06, "Darrell"
> > wrote:
>
> > Trying for an aviation career is somewhat like trying to be a rock star.
> > Because of the "glamour" of the job and the big bucks you can make it
you
> > make it to the "big time" airlines, people are willing to work for
peanuts
> > to have a chance to grab the brass ring. But unlike artists, pilots not
> > only have to work for almost nothing, they also have to first spend lots
of
> > their own money to gain the experience and ratings necessary to fly for
pay.
>
> I'd say most artists spend more time learning their craft than pilots.
I've
> been drawing since I could hold a crayon and that doesn't seem to be
> unusual. I remember drawing a caricature of my mother in the dirt as a
kid.
>
> It took a lot of money and time (I gave Uncle Sam 4 years in order to have
> him to pay for college) to get to the point that people are willing to pay
> me for my artwork, and it took a lot of experience (which cost me more
> money) before I learned how to charge anywhere near what I'm worth.
>
> But like flying, I can't begrudge a single moment of the work that it took
> to get to this point. I have a talent that a lot of people envy and will
pay
> for, and it finances my flying. How many people have that opportunity?
>
> It's a great time and place to be alive. I was born at a time in history
> where piloting a private plane is (nearly) commonplace, the US lets me fly
> virtually unrestricted, the internet gives me a global client base to help
> pay for it, and technologies like GPS makes it so much safer and easier to
> get from place to place I almost feel like I'm cheating when I use it.
> --
> Jeff 'The Wizard of Draws' Bucchino
> Cartoons with a Touch of Magic�
> www.wizardofdraws.com
> www.cartoonclipart.com
>

[Wizard of Draws]

On 8/28/04 4:10 PM, in article ,
"ShawnD2112" > wrote:

> Jeff,
> Appropos of nothing except I decided, after following your posts for some
> time now, to check out your artwork. I'm a bit disappointed by the quick
> registration. Only "Mr", "Mrs" or "Miss" are available title options.
> Given your presence here, where's "Skygod" or "Pilot Extraordinaire" for all
> your rap buddies?? :-)
>
> Great work, by the way. You're right, too. I do envy your talent!
>
> Shawn

Shawn,

Thank you for the very kind words, but I'm afraid you have me at a loss.
Neither of my websites listed below require any sort of registration.
I think you may have followed a link in error, especially given your mention
of the word "rap".
Can you get back to me on this? I'd be interested to know who or what you
are confusing my cartoons with.
--
Jeff 'The Wizard of Draws' Bucchino
Cartoons with a Touch of Magic�
www.wizardofdraws.com
www.cartoonclipart.com

[ShawnD2112]

Jeff,
I clicked on the link to wizardofdraws.com and it brought me to a page
http://register.freeze.com/(myjkddvdvb5fvw552yjv1k45)/index.aspx?&pop=1&s=cl
ipartsample&f=19818
which had a registration on it for some free downloads, all of which I
assumed were your work. Is this not the right place? The reference to rap
was rec.aviation.piloting, the usenet group we're talking on here. Am I on
the wrong track?

Shawn
"Wizard of Draws" > wrote in message
news:BD566BF1.1E42B%jeffbREMOVE@REMOVEwizardofdraw s.com...
> On 8/28/04 4:10 PM, in article ,
> "ShawnD2112" > wrote:
>
> > Jeff,
> > Appropos of nothing except I decided, after following your posts for
some
> > time now, to check out your artwork. I'm a bit disappointed by the
quick
> > registration. Only "Mr", "Mrs" or "Miss" are available title options.
> > Given your presence here, where's "Skygod" or "Pilot Extraordinaire" for
all
> > your rap buddies?? :-)
> >
> > Great work, by the way. You're right, too. I do envy your talent!
> >
> > Shawn
>
> Shawn,
>
> Thank you for the very kind words, but I'm afraid you have me at a loss.
> Neither of my websites listed below require any sort of registration.
> I think you may have followed a link in error, especially given your
mention
> of the word "rap".
> Can you get back to me on this? I'd be interested to know who or what you
> are confusing my cartoons with.
> --
> Jeff 'The Wizard of Draws' Bucchino
> Cartoons with a Touch of Magic�
> www.wizardofdraws.com
> www.cartoonclipart.com
>

[Dan Luke]

"Mike Rapoport" wrote:
>>
>> Southwest is a very special case. It's the child of a brilliant
>> manager/founder. Such individuals are rare - vanishingly scarce in
>> publicly traded corporations.
>>
>
> I don't know if I would agree that SWA success was dependent on
> brilliance.
> It seems pretty simple. SWA seems to be the only airline that
> realizes who
> the customer is, what they want and set up a business to provide it.

Seems simple doesn't it? But I make a good living off the chronic
inability of my large corporate competitors to do just that. I'm
thankful that the level of management talent in Fortune 500 companies is
what it is, and I'm sure Herb Kelleher was, too.

> The other airlines talk about restructuring but, as soon as the
> economy gets
> good, they go back to their old ways and the cycle repeats.

Corporate America's idea of "restructuring" usually amounts to little
more than cutting head count and expecting the survivors to cope as best
they can. They usually offer deals that encourage their most experienced
employees to leave. I love this; it's guaranteed to **** off even their
most loyal customers and make my phone ring.

But you're right, Mike: if Delta and United survive into a boom cycle,
upper management will head back to the golf course and let things get
fat again.
--
Dan
C172RG at BFM

[Bob Noel]

In article >, Wizard
of Draws > wrote:

> Thank you for the very kind words, but I'm afraid you have me at a loss.
> Neither of my websites listed below require any sort of registration.
> I think you may have followed a link in error, especially given your
> mention
> of the word "rap".

perhaps rap -> r.a.p. -> rec.aviation.piloting ???

--
Bob Noel
Seen on Kerry's campaign airplane: "the real deal"
oh yeah baby.

[Wizard of Draws]

On 8/28/04 6:41 PM, in article ,
"ShawnD2112" > wrote:

> Jeff,
> I clicked on the link to wizardofdraws.com and it brought me to a page
> http://register.freeze.com/(myjkddvdvb5fvw552yjv1k45)/index.aspx?&pop=1&s=cl
> ipartsample&f=19818
> which had a registration on it for some free downloads, all of which I
> assumed were your work. Is this not the right place? The reference to rap
> was rec.aviation.piloting, the usenet group we're talking on here. Am I on
> the wrong track?
>
> Shawn

RAP, duh.

Odd, I can't for the life of me tell you why that link is the one you are
taken to when you click on my web URL below. That site has nothing to do
with me at all. I'll have to investigate that.

Cut and paste http://www.wizardofdraws.com into your browser window and my
website will appear. I think you'll find my work is a bit better than what
you saw at that other site.
--
Jeff 'The Wizard of Draws' Bucchino
Cartoons with a Touch of Magic�
www.wizardofdraws.com
www.cartoonclipart.com

[Wizard of Draws]

On 8/28/04 7:44 PM, in article
, "Bob Noel"
> wrote:

> In article >, Wizard
> of Draws > wrote:
>
>> Thank you for the very kind words, but I'm afraid you have me at a loss.
>> Neither of my websites listed below require any sort of registration.
>> I think you may have followed a link in error, especially given your
>> mention
>> of the word "rap".
>
> perhaps rap -> r.a.p. -> rec.aviation.piloting ???

Duh. The whole registration thing threw me off track.
--
Jeff 'The Wizard of Draws' Bucchino
Cartoons with a Touch of Magic�
www.wizardofdraws.com
www.cartoonclipart.com

[Cub Driver]

On Sat, 28 Aug 2004 15:56:08 -0400, Wizard of Draws
> wrote:

>It's a great time and place to be alive. I was born at a time in history
>where piloting a private plane is (nearly) commonplace, the US lets me fly
>virtually unrestricted, the internet gives me a global client base to help
>pay for it, and technologies like GPS makes it so much safer and easier to
>get from place to place I almost feel like I'm cheating when I use it.

Thank you, Wiz, for the reality check!

They are all great times, if you approach them in the right frame of
mind, and this is indeed a great place to enjoy them.


all the best -- Dan Ford
email: (put Cubdriver in subject line)

The Warbird's Forum www.warbirdforum.com
Expedition sailboat charters www.expeditionsail.com

[TJ Girl]

Wizard of Draws > wrote in message >...
> On 8/28/04 6:41 PM, in article ,
> "ShawnD2112" > wrote:
>
> > http://register.freeze.com/(myjkddvdvb5fvw552yjv1k45)/index.aspx?&pop=1&s=cl
> > ipartsample&f=19818

> Odd, I can't for the life of me tell you why that link is the one you are
> taken to when you click on my web URL below. That site has nothing to do
> with me at all. I'll have to investigate that.


I think what he's doing is from your web page, clicking on the google
ad link to animal clipart. That goes to that register.freeze.com
site.

Shawn, instead of clicking on the google ad at the top of the page,
scroll down to the bottom and use the links such as "Toons" and "Small
toons"

[leslie]

William W. Plummer ) wrote:
:
: And you are right about labor in India. Once they master the
: technology,
:

Make that "technologies", including medicine, pharmaceutical,
biotechnology, et.al.

:
: we will be the customer and will completely lack the ability to
: compete.
:

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/articleshow/786093.cms
Now comes Knowledge Process Outsourcing - The Economic Times

"ECONOMICTIMES.COM [ THURSDAY, JULY 22, 2004 12:18:08 AM ]

If you thought outsourcing is limited to just tech jobs, you need to
run an update program. The next big wave is going to involve the
outsourcing of high-skill or 'knowledge' jobs such as accountants,
lawyers, engineers and doctors to foreign countries.

According to Slicon.com, knowledge process offshoring, or KPO will
rule the future and will grow faster than the much talked about BPO.
If you are still wondering what this KPO means, here's an example. A
law firm outsourcing basic case research to trainee lawyers or legal
experts in a foreign country or may be a pharmaceutical company
conducting R&D for new drugs in offshore facilities..."


http://inhome.rediff.com/money/2004/aug/26bpo.htm
'All US tech jobs will move out in a decade'

"'All US tech jobs will move out in a decade'
August 26, 2004 12:04 IST

Every technology-related job in the United States would be moved to
overseas destinations within a decade as relocation of jobs to
countries like India would enable firms to cut costs, a top American
businesswomen has said.

"That is a scary concept," Kathy Brittain White, who was named the
Forbes Top 25 American Businesswomen in 2001, said.

"If something is not done in 10 years, every technology job will be
overseas," White, a former CIO of Cardinal Health Inc, said on
Wednesday..."


--Jerry Leslie
Note: is invalid for email

[Jens Krueger]

Bill Hale > wrote:

> So you can see his new book, "Structured IFR" which is a real
> winner. He wrote that during his spare prof time.

You' talking about Eckalbar?

--
I don't accept any emails right now. Usenet replys only.

[Wizard of Draws]

On 8/29/04 10:02 AM, in article
, "TJ Girl"
> wrote:
>
> I think what he's doing is from your web page, clicking on the google
> ad link to animal clipart. That goes to that register.freeze.com
> site.
>
> Shawn, instead of clicking on the google ad at the top of the page,
> scroll down to the bottom and use the links such as "Toons" and "Small
> toons"

I thought that might be the case also, but it's hard to tell since the
Google ads rotate with every visitor. Thanks.
--
Jeff 'The Wizard of Draws' Bucchino
Cartoons with a Touch of Magic�
http://www.wizardofdraws.com
http://www.cartoonclipart.com

[tscottme]

"gatt" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Mike Rapoport" > wrote in message
> news:zRHXc.126
>
> > Salaries will always be low in an occupation considered to be glamorous.
>
> The people paying the salaries, and the pilots earning them, ought to know
> better. Salaries should always be high in an occupation considered (by
the
> general public) to be dangerous.
>
> -c
>
>

Has there ever been a shortage of people wanting to be movie stars or
airline pilots? I think during WWII, even though the military needed
buckets of pilots yesterday, they could still afford to be selective.

--
Scott

"I have always felt that a politician is to be judged by the animosities he
excites among his opponents." - Sir Winston Churchill

[John Gaquin]

"C Kingsbury" > wrote in message
>
> When was the last time a large segment of the population considering
> flying a Beech 1900 or CRJ glamorous?

People in general consider piloting to be a glamorous, romantic occupation,
primarily because the have no understanding of airplanes or of the industry.

>
> To be fair, I'd love to have my brother-in-law's job. He flies 767s
> for UPS all over the world, spending two days at a time in downtown
> hotels in Manila, Bangkok, Singapore, Bombay, Dubai, Copenhagen, etc.
> Good pay, expenses, etc. I'm 28 and single, he's 42 and has an
> adorable 2 year old son.

Been there, done that, went home. Be careful what you wish for, 'cause you
might get it. It always sounds glamorous to start, but how many 3-day
layovers in HKG or SYD do you want? How many times do you want to visit
Brussels for a day and a half? Ask your brother-in-law how many nights a
year he spends in hotels. In a few more years, ask him how many birthdays,
anniversaries, school events, family events, etc., he's missed. Bottom line
is that in the airline business, the absolute best deal most pilots will
wind up with after many years seniority is that they'll be away from home
*only* 20% of the time, and that's rare. Now calculate the price a family
pays for all that glory.

[Michael]

"Dan Luke" > wrote
> Southwest is a very special case. It's the child of a brilliant
> manager/founder.

Nothing brilliant about it. Southwest is an actual business, and run
as such - the goal being to make a profit. Most airlines are run more
like model railroads - the goal being to be able to get more and
bigger stuff. Southwest is pretty much the Greyhound of the air. I
avoid them like the plague - no direct flights anywhere, cattle-call
boarding, no possibility of an upgrade to first class because they
don't have it, full flights, no food. Of course I'm not paying for my
ticket, either. Southwest is not targeted at getting the people on
corporate expense accounts - it's targeted at gettting the people who
will use alternate transportation (most often drive) unless the price
is right. They are the Greyhound of the air.

> Such individuals are rare - vanishingly scarce in
> publicly traded corporations.

Does seem to be the case, doesn't it...

> Your point is valid, though: management likes to blame unions for
> competitive disadvantages, but management agreed to those contracts.
> Often this is a case of throwing money at unhappy people because it's
> easier than dealing imaginatively with the workforce.

Imagination doesn't cut it - you need money. The Southwest pilots I
know are often unemployable elsewhere - in fact, every Southwest pilot
I know has crashed at least one airplane. Small sample, but still...
Does that make me concerned about the safety of flying Southwest? Not
in the least. As one of them put it, there are so many rules and
procedures in place, it just doesn't matter.

Historically, airline pilot salaries were high because it DID matter.
In the age of the piston airliners and the steam gauge cockpits, when
airliners flew in the weather rather than above it, pilot skill and
experience mattered a lot. It was important to attract the best
through a winnowing process, where the winnowing only killed a few
people at a time rather than dozens or hundreds. That's no longer
important.

> > My bet is that is stabilizes right around $100K in today's dollars for
> > major airline captains, and the quality of the pilots (as measured in
> > accident rate) will not change.
>
> I'll bet you lunch at Carl's that it will be ~$75K in today's dollars in
> 10 years. Hope I can still fly in to collect.

You're on.

Michael

[Dan Luke]

"Michael" wrote:

> > Southwest is a very special case. It's the child of a brilliant
> > manager/founder.
>
> Nothing brilliant about it. Southwest is an actual business, and run
> as such - the goal being to make a profit. Most airlines are run more
> like model railroads - the goal being to be able to get more and
> bigger stuff. Southwest is pretty much the Greyhound of the air. I
> avoid them like the plague - no direct flights anywhere, cattle-call
> boarding, no possibility of an upgrade to first class because they
> don't have it, full flights, no food. Of course I'm not paying for my
> ticket, either. Southwest is not targeted at getting the people on
> corporate expense accounts - it's targeted at gettting the people who
> will use alternate transportation (most often drive) unless the price
> is right. They are the Greyhound of the air.

I call that brilliant - I didn't say it was sexy.

> > Such individuals are rare - vanishingly scarce in
> > publicly traded corporations.
>
> Does seem to be the case, doesn't it...
>
> > Your point is valid, though: management likes to blame unions for
> > competitive disadvantages, but management agreed to those contracts.
> > Often this is a case of throwing money at unhappy people because it's
> > easier than dealing imaginatively with the workforce.
>
> Imagination doesn't cut it - you need money.

Well, you need air, too. Just paying people more will not make for a
high-morale workforce.

> The Southwest pilots I know are often unemployable elsewhere
> - in fact, every Southwest pilot I know has crashed at least one
> airplane. Small sample, but still...
> Does that make me concerned about the safety of flying
> Southwest? Not in the least. As one of them put it, there are
> so many rules and procedures in place, it just doesn't matter.

SW's safety record would seem to support that. I know only one SW pilot,
and he's the best pilot I know.

> Historically, airline pilot salaries were high because it DID matter.
> In the age of the piston airliners and the steam gauge cockpits, when
> airliners flew in the weather rather than above it, pilot skill and
> experience mattered a lot. It was important to attract the best
> through a winnowing process, where the winnowing only killed a few
> people at a time rather than dozens or hundreds. That's no longer
> important.

....and will become less so as cockpit automation increases; that's why I'm
betting on a large decline in salaries. Which brings up another question:
can the airlines can get to single-pilot operations? Imagine the market
advantage an airliner certified for single-pilot would have, and what *that*
would do to salaries.

--
Dan
C-172RG at BFM

[Cub Driver]

On 30 Aug 2004 10:29:58 -0700,
(Michael) wrote:

> Southwest is an actual business, and run
>as such - the goal being to make a profit. Most airlines are run more
>like model railroads - the goal being to be able to get more and
>bigger stuff. Southwest is pretty much the Greyhound of the air. I
>avoid them like the plague - no direct flights anywhere, cattle-call
>boarding, no possibility of an upgrade to first class because they
>don't have it, full flights, no food. Of course I'm not paying for my
>ticket, either.

Well, there you have it! For my part, I am actually giving up Frequent
Flier programs because I find it's just as easy most of the time to
pay for a ticket on Southwest. It helps of course that the nearest
airport to me with scheduled service is Manchester NH, from which
Southwest flies to Baltimore, which is a one-hour mass transit ride
from DC, which is where I am generally going.

Obviously you haven't ridden Southwest often enough to appreciate the
brilliance of its biz model. I enjoy the aircraft, the flight
attendants, and the open seating. I admit that boarding in BWI is a
bit wearisome (though nothing like boarding the Greyhound in New York,
which is something else I often do: anyone comparing SW to the Hound
just hasn't ridden the Hound lately). But the BWI stand-in-line is
hardly worse than sitting around, and anyhow it's made up for by the
ease of boarding in Manchester outbound.

Southwest is the future.


all the best -- Dan Ford
email: (put Cubdriver in subject line)

The Warbird's Forum www.warbirdforum.com
Expedition sailboat charters www.expeditionsail.com

[Cub Driver]

On Mon, 30 Aug 2004 05:36:22 -0500, "tscottme" >
wrote:

>Has there ever been a shortage of people wanting to be movie stars or
>airline pilots?

Or writers?

Or actors?

all the best -- Dan Ford
email: (put Cubdriver in subject line)

The Warbird's Forum www.warbirdforum.com
Expedition sailboat charters www.expeditionsail.com

[Dylan Smith]

In article >, leslie wrote:
> Every technology-related job in the United States would be moved to
> overseas destinations within a decade as relocation of jobs to

That's hyperbole. There are still and always will be a large number of
tech jobs that require someone be on-site.

Seeing the handwriting on the wall (and although I'd love to telecommute
and get rid of commuting costs), I've moved my focus from a job which
could easily be done by telecommuting to one which needs my presence
on-site most of the time. If I can telecommute, so can someone earning
1/10th of my salary abroad. When looking for tech jobs from now on I'll
be looking at ones that need frequent on-site presence.

--
Dylan Smith, Castletown, Isle of Man
Flying: http://www.dylansmith.net
Frontier Elite Universe: http://www.alioth.net
"Maintain thine airspeed, lest the ground come up and smite thee"

[Dylan Smith]

In article >, Here to there wrote:
> On Fri, 27 Aug 2004 11:56:17 -0500, Bill Denton > wrote:
>> May I suggest that you take your hiring blinders off?
Bx
>>
>> I didn't even BECOME a developer until I was 38.
>>
>> I didn't even finish junior college (I got hired after 1-1/2 years)
>
> But by that very fact, you're showing that you're not
> a traditional developer. Let me put it this way - how many people
> do you know who took IT/software development courses in college,
> graduated by age 23, and are still active developers, with current
> knowledge, 20 years later? Not many, I'd wager.

And those that are are the BEST developers around, and have always been
good developers since they started. Those who 'stagnate at 30' probably
never were good developers - they probably did it because it looked like
easy money. People with a passion for software development will always
be learning, even after they've retired. If you hire a passionate
developer who's 25, you can bet he'll still be at the forefront of
technology at 45 most likely. If you hire one that age without the
passion - sure they'll stagnate.

Of course, most hiring managers don't see that because they are obsessed
with youth.

The best developer I've known I met when I was 23, just out of college.
He was approaching 60 years old and his knowledge was as fresh and
current as mine - except he could back it up with real experience. He
had the passion for it.

--
Dylan Smith, Castletown, Isle of Man
Flying: http://www.dylansmith.net
Frontier Elite Universe: http://www.alioth.net
"Maintain thine airspeed, lest the ground come up and smite thee"

[Dylan Smith]

In article >, G.R. Patterson III wrote:
>
> Yep, you've done things the right way so far. I missed the step over to C++ and
> sidestepped to writing requirements. Wrong move, but the job market's picking up
> there again. Pick up PERL while you're at it. For some reason, that's hot now.

I began learning Perl about 4 years ago (like a pilot's license,
learning the basics of a given language is a 'license to learn', so I've
never stopped learning it).

It's one of the most fun languages I've used. I find it very expressive
and natural to write - I don't find it clumsy like many scripting
languages.

(Actually, on my next CV (US readers: s/CV/resume/) I'm going to put
INTERCAL in the list of languages and see if the interviewer picks it up
:-))

--
Dylan Smith, Castletown, Isle of Man
Flying: http://www.dylansmith.net
Frontier Elite Universe: http://www.alioth.net
"Maintain thine airspeed, lest the ground come up and smite thee"

[Dylan Smith]

In article >, Dan Truesdell wrote:
> Just talked with a very skilled associate. He prefers Java over C++,
> and Python over Java. I've only done a few small projects in Python and
> PERL. I found PERL to be a strange language to work with (you
> definitely need your PERL hat on, like Scheme).

Python will be my next project, but I find Perl incredibly natural.

Perhaps it says something about my mental outlook :-)

'There was a Perl hacker named Ray
Who wanted the time of the day
He pushed and he popped
He shifted and chopped
'Till tomorrow was somehow today'

and

'Roses are red
Violets are blue
Taint check your scripts
Or I will 0wn j00'

(I'm not sure where I saw either of these two things, but I definitely
live by the latter).

--
Dylan Smith, Castletown, Isle of Man
Flying: http://www.dylansmith.net
Frontier Elite Universe: http://www.alioth.net
"Maintain thine airspeed, lest the ground come up and smite thee"

[Dylan Smith]

In article >, Dan Luke wrote:
>> The Southwest pilots I know are often unemployable elsewhere
>> - in fact, every Southwest pilot I know has crashed at least one
>> airplane. Small sample, but still...
>
> SW's safety record would seem to support that. I know only one SW pilot,
> and he's the best pilot I know.

The two SW pilots I know - one is Debbie Rihn-Harvey, a US Aerobatic
champion, and the other's a guy with two piston aircraft of his own
(neither of which he's crashed!) Both have a real passion for aviation.
I have had the privilege of flying formation with Debbie (albeit
briefly) as well as taking my Multi Engine/Instrument checkride with her.

--
Dylan Smith, Castletown, Isle of Man
Flying: http://www.dylansmith.net
Frontier Elite Universe: http://www.alioth.net
"Maintain thine airspeed, lest the ground come up and smite thee"

[Dylan Smith]

In article >, ET wrote:
> I disagree... Salaries will always be low in an occupation that is so
> much fun, most of the participants would do it for free......

Which just comes around to supply and demand. A pilot shortage means
there are 20 people applying for each job instead of 200.

--
Dylan Smith, Castletown, Isle of Man
Flying: http://www.dylansmith.net
Frontier Elite Universe: http://www.alioth.net
"Maintain thine airspeed, lest the ground come up and smite thee"

[gatt]

"Paul Folbrecht" > wrote in message

> Fortunately or unfortunately, they don't seem to be moving towards that
> point very quickly. The thing about a lot of them is that they are into
> the field solely for the money and thus lack passion for the art. It
> shows, in my experience.

This is a complaint among companies that use them (companies, in other
words, that deserve what they get.) The turnover rate at most of those
places is several hundred percent a year and as soon as the techs get
english and tech skills under their belt, they jump to a higher-paying job.
So the outsourcing companies are spending fortunes training employees who
leave only three or four months after completing the training, and their
images are being dragged through the mud because customers are getting
****ed at having to repeat themselves over and over just to get simple
things done.

AAAHAHAHAHAHAAAA! Suck on THAT, Dell. Hewlett-Packard seems to have
outsourced its own internal support.

Now they're starting to pull back to domestic employment because it simply
works better. It's the exact sort of spiralling and selfish idiocy that led
to the near destruction of the dot com industry.

-c

[William W. Plummer]

gatt wrote:

> "Paul Folbrecht" > wrote in message
>
>
>>Fortunately or unfortunately, they don't seem to be moving towards that
>>point very quickly. The thing about a lot of them is that they are into
>>the field solely for the money and thus lack passion for the art. It
>>shows, in my experience.
>
>
> This is a complaint among companies that use them (companies, in other
> words, that deserve what they get.) The turnover rate at most of those
> places is several hundred percent a year and as soon as the techs get
> english and tech skills under their belt, they jump to a higher-paying job.
> So the outsourcing companies are spending fortunes training employees who
> leave only three or four months after completing the training, and their
> images are being dragged through the mud because customers are getting
> ****ed at having to repeat themselves over and over just to get simple
> things done.
>
> AAAHAHAHAHAHAAAA! Suck on THAT, Dell. Hewlett-Packard seems to have
> outsourced its own internal support.
>
> Now they're starting to pull back to domestic employment because it simply
> works better. It's the exact sort of spiralling and selfish idiocy that led
> to the near destruction of the dot com industry.
>
> -c
>
>
Hah. At least one state (AZ) has outsourced its welfare call-in lines
to India!

[Morgans]

"Dylan Smith" > wrote

> (Actually, on my next CV (US readers: s/CV/resume/) I'm going to put
> INTERCAL in the list of languages and see if the interviewer picks it up
> :-))
>
> --
> Dylan Smith, Castletown, Isle of Man

Sorry, I must be slow. The joke is...?
--
Jim in NC

[leslie]

William W. Plummer ) wrote:
:
: Hah. At least one state (AZ) has outsourced its welfare call-in lines
: to India!
:

The total was 42 states and D.C...

http://makeashorterlink.com/?Y2FF53F29
Your Tax Dollars At Work...Offshore:
How Foreign Outsourcing Firms Are Capturing State Government Contracts

The original link, wrapped to 2 lines:

http://www.washtech.org/reports/TaxDollarsAtWork/
offshoring_finaltext_pdf.pdf
Your Tax Dollars At Work...Offshore:
How Foreign Outsourcing Firms Are Capturing State Government Contracts

"...Interviews with EBT officials in every state and the District of
Columbia reveal that:

o Before the offshoring controversy began, the call centers for 42 states
and the District of Columbia were operating offshore. In most cases,
this occurred because the states gave EBT contracts to Citibank
Electronic Financial Services, which in turn subcontracted the call
center work to an Indian firm called MsourcE. (In 2003 Citibank sold
the business to J.P. Morgan Chase, which continued to use MsourcE.)
A smaller number of states ended up with offshore call centers through
their EBT contracts with eFunds Corporation or Affiliated Computer
Services Inc.

o As a result of the controversy, one state (New Jersey) has brought its
call center back to the United States, and five states (Arizona, Kansas,
North Carolina, Oregon and Wisconsin) are planning to do the same.

o Eight states (Illinois, Iowa, Maine, Mississippi, Montana, Ohio, Texas,
and Wyoming) avoided the use of offshore call centers because they hired
EBT contractors that used domestic facilities."

EBT: Electronic Benefit Transfer

--Jerry Leslie
Note: is invalid for email

[Cub Driver]

On Tue, 31 Aug 2004 16:22:59 GMT, "William W. Plummer"
> wrote:

>Hah. At least one state (AZ) has outsourced its welfare call-in lines
>to India!

It must be an odd experience to deal with a welfare case whose annual
income is greater than yours.

all the best -- Dan Ford
email: (put Cubdriver in subject line)

The Warbird's Forum www.warbirdforum.com
Expedition sailboat charters www.expeditionsail.com

[G.R. Patterson III]

Cub Driver wrote:
>
> It must be an odd experience to deal with a welfare case whose annual
> income is greater than yours.

The relative amounts of income are unimportant; it's what that money can buy. I'd bet
the call center employees live better on their pay than a welfare recipient does
here.

George Patterson
If you want to know God's opinion of money, just look at the people
he gives it to.

[Tom S.]

"G.R. Patterson III" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> Cub Driver wrote:
> >
> > It must be an odd experience to deal with a welfare case whose annual
> > income is greater than yours.
>
> The relative amounts of income are unimportant; it's what that money can
buy. I'd bet
> the call center employees live better on their pay than a welfare
recipient does
> here.

How much would you be willing to bet, George? We can work something out.
Hell, I'll give you odds.

[Dylan Smith]

In article >, Morgans wrote:
>
> "Dylan Smith" > wrote
>
>> (Actually, on my next CV (US readers: s/CV/resume/) I'm going to put
>> INTERCAL in the list of languages and see if the interviewer picks it up
>> :-))
>
> Sorry, I must be slow. The joke is...?

Well, apart from INTERCAL being ...erm...'invented' about the same time
as I was born, it's a rather, umm, 'interesting' language.

Put it this way, many intercal programs start with the statement:
PLEASE DON'T GIVE UP

--
Dylan Smith, Castletown, Isle of Man
Flying: http://www.dylansmith.net
Frontier Elite Universe: http://www.alioth.net
"Maintain thine airspeed, lest the ground come up and smite thee"

[Morgans]

"Dylan Smith" > wrote

>
> Well, apart from INTERCAL being ...erm...'invented' about the same time
> as I was born, it's a rather, umm, 'interesting' language.
>
> Put it this way, many intercal programs start with the statement:
> PLEASE DON'T GIVE UP
>
> --
> Dylan Smith, Castletown, Isle of Man

Before FORTRAN?

Oooh. That hurts.
--
Jim in NC

[Peter R.]

Newps wrote:

> William W. Plummer wrote:
> and Air Traffic Controllers at
> > 56.
>
> Not anymore. The age 56 rule is on its last gasping breath. The FAA
> can already allow needed controllers to stay past 56 and within a few
> years the limit will be gone all together.

What about the maximum age to become a controller? Is that still 30?

--
Peter

[Newps]

Peter R. wrote:

> Newps wrote:
>
>
>>William W. Plummer wrote:
>> and Air Traffic Controllers at
>>
>>>56.
>>
>>Not anymore. The age 56 rule is on its last gasping breath. The FAA
>>can already allow needed controllers to stay past 56 and within a few
>>years the limit will be gone all together.
>
>
> What about the maximum age to become a controller? Is that still 30?

Yes, but will probably change. They aren't in as much of a hurry to
change that though because they can get enough new controllers thru the
colleges and retaining the old farts.