Help With Medical Problem Identified During Medical Exam

[pjbphd]

I'm taking flight lessons and was hoping to get my private pilot certificate
not too far down the line. Today I went in for my medical and was told by
the examiner I have a couple problems. Although I've been asymptomatic for
some time I'm on a medication that is not allowed by the FAA. When I went
to the physician who prescribed the medication (a non-pilot) he was shocked
that the FAA does not allow pilots to take it. Unfortunately he does not
recommend I discontinue its use. Nor is there an alternative medication
acceptable to the FAA.



Do I have any recourse other than discontinuing the medication even though
my physician recommends I stay on it or accepting that I won't be able to
fly. In other words is there any kind of appeal process provided I can get
the prescribing physician to state the medication does not impair my
abilities? This is particularly frustrating in that had I known the med was
not allowed, starting YESTERDAY I could have gone for a recreational pilots
certificate without a medical review, but now it's too late.



Any help will be appreciated.




--
Too many spams have forced me to alter my email. If you wish to email me
directly please send messages to pjbphd @ cox dot net

[tony roberts]

The person who can best advise you is the aviation medical examiner.
If you are a member of AOPA they can also give you lots of advice and
guidance.

HTH


Tony
--

Tony Roberts
PP-ASEL
VFR OTT
Night
Cessna 172H C-GICE

In article <9ZPZc.193012$sh.8999@fed1read06>,
"pjbphd" > wrote:

> I'm taking flight lessons and was hoping to get my private pilot certificate
> not too far down the line. Today I went in for my medical and was told by
> the examiner I have a couple problems. Although I've been asymptomatic for
> some time I'm on a medication that is not allowed by the FAA. When I went
> to the physician who prescribed the medication (a non-pilot) he was shocked
> that the FAA does not allow pilots to take it. Unfortunately he does not
> recommend I discontinue its use. Nor is there an alternative medication
> acceptable to the FAA.
>
>
>
> Do I have any recourse other than discontinuing the medication even though
> my physician recommends I stay on it or accepting that I won't be able to
> fly. In other words is there any kind of appeal process provided I can get
> the prescribing physician to state the medication does not impair my
> abilities? This is particularly frustrating in that had I known the med was
> not allowed, starting YESTERDAY I could have gone for a recreational pilots
> certificate without a medical review, but now it's too late.
>
>
>
> Any help will be appreciated.

[Capt.Doug]

>"pjbphd" wrote in message > Do I have any recourse other than discontinuing
>the medication even though
> my physician recommends I stay on it or accepting that I won't be able to
> fly.

If your AME did in fact file the rejection with the FAA, you can ask for a
deviation from the FAA's aeromedical branch in Oklahoma City. Depending on
the medication, you may be successful. As others have mentioned, join AOPA
and let them handle the politics with Aeromedical.

D.

[Cub Driver]

> This is particularly frustrating in that had I known the med was
>not allowed, starting YESTERDAY I could have gone for a recreational pilots
>certificate without a medical review, but now it's too late.

(You mean Sport Pilot. Recreational Pilots have a 3rd Class Medical.)

I don't read your situation to say that your medical has been denied.
Has it been denied, or is it just stalled pending further information?

Perhaps others can dive in here. I've seen references to Special
Issuance applciations being "withdrawn", but this isn't a special
issuance, and you haven't withdrawn it.

What exactly has happened here? Was there a denial? Is there a record
of this application at the FAA? Does it really exist, or was it
aborted?

Anyone?

all the best -- Dan Ford
email: (put Cubdriver in subject line)

The Warbird's Forum www.warbirdforum.com
Expedition sailboat charters www.expeditionsail.com

[Captain Wubba]

Hi. I recently went through a similar process, but for a medication
that was neither specifically approved nor disapproved for my
particular condition. I was approved, but it took 4 months. Luckily I
still had time remaining on the third-class privileges of my 'old'
medical...I was just waiting on my second class, so I could still fly
and instruct. Here is my advice, for what it is worth.

1. Contact the AOPA, as other have suggested. They were a Godsend with
me.

2. Ask your AME to refer the problem to the regional aeromedical
office first, not OK City. Regional is often much faster.

3. Get a letter from your primary care physician *specifically*
stating the following:
a. The underlying disorder is not incapacitating, nor does it increase
the liklihood of sudden incapacitation.
b. That you have been asymptomatic for the underlying disorder (if
true) for how long you have been.
c. Thet he knows of no issues regarding either the underlying disorder
or the treating medication that would make it unsafe in any way to
operate a car or aircraft.
d. That you suffer no side effects from the use of the medication, and
have not suffered any adverse reactions in how long.
e. That you have been stable on this medication for how long you have,
and that it has been effective in the treatment of your disorder.
f. That your physician has been treating you for however long he has
been.

4. If the FAA requests any reports from specialists, contact them
directly and advise them specifically of what the FAA is requesting.
Approve their response before they send it. I had one specialist make
this rambling complicated response that didn't address the specific
requests from the aeromedical office. had I not had a chance to
correct it, it may well have delayed my approval.

5. Keep copies of *everything*.

6. Read and understand FAR Part 67 well.

If you recently went to the AME, you almost certainly have not been
'denied'. You have probably been deferred. The folks I talked to at
the FAA aeromedical office told me the number one reason people do get
denied in the end is that the FAA does not receive the information it
needs. Doctors don't respond, or respond with the wrong kind of
information, or applicants just give up. If the regional flight
surgeon can't approve you, he'll defer you (in all liklihood) to OK
City. AT this point, after a couple of weeks, the AOPA can put a
'tracker' on your file. It seems to help it move along, and they can
advise you of the status and any problems that arise.

The guidelines for AMEs from the FAA itself indicates that being on a
non-approved medication is not automatically disqualifying.

And just a hard-earned piece of advice for next time. Ask around and
find out which AMEs in your area are more 'flexible' than others. Some
of these guys are hardcore jackasses...mine was. Some will work with
you and use common sense. Avoid the guys with a bad reputation...the
guy I went to is no longer on the referral list of either of the
flight schools at my airport. bad AMEs are like bad DEs...best to just
ignore tham and don't use them. Eventually they'll get the message
when they don't get any business.

But keep at it. I talked to a lot of people, including 3 different
AMEs during my process. Absent a few specific issues and medications,
the FAA Aeromedical office can be pretty flexible, and seems to
genuinely want to approve most applications.

Good luck,

Cap



"pjbphd" > wrote in message news:<9ZPZc.193012$sh.8999@fed1read06>...
> I'm taking flight lessons and was hoping to get my private pilot certificate
> not too far down the line. Today I went in for my medical and was told by
> the examiner I have a couple problems. Although I've been asymptomatic for
> some time I'm on a medication that is not allowed by the FAA. When I went
> to the physician who prescribed the medication (a non-pilot) he was shocked
> that the FAA does not allow pilots to take it. Unfortunately he does not
> recommend I discontinue its use. Nor is there an alternative medication
> acceptable to the FAA.
>
>
>
> Do I have any recourse other than discontinuing the medication even though
> my physician recommends I stay on it or accepting that I won't be able to
> fly. In other words is there any kind of appeal process provided I can get
> the prescribing physician to state the medication does not impair my
> abilities? This is particularly frustrating in that had I known the med was
> not allowed, starting YESTERDAY I could have gone for a recreational pilots
> certificate without a medical review, but now it's too late.
>
>
>
> Any help will be appreciated.

[pjbphd]

Thanks for all the advice. Unfortunately from what I've found out,
including a conversation with AOPA, I'm screwed. Almost.

Here's the deal. I've been on Effoxor, an anti-depressant for a few years.
It's not allowed by the FAA. I tired to contact the AME today, but he was
out of the office. Hopefully I'll reach him next week. Nevertheless,
because I've disclosed it to him, it is my understanding that he has to
report it. Therefore, my only recourse is to discontinue it's use.
Something I'd like to do anyway, but it's pretty sad when a medication must
be discontinued to comply with an FAA rule. As I mentioned, I've been
asymptomatic for some time. I've also operated fine on high elevation
mountains (14,000 feet) while taking it with no problem.

This isn't the fault of the AME, he's just the bearer of bad news. It is
frustrating for me, but not depressing <grin>. It looks like at a minimum
it'll put my flight training on hold for six months, and maybe permanently.
If anyone has any additional advice, I'm open.

pjbphd

BTW, when the DR. who prescribed the Effexor read the FAR and AOPA
information stating that it is a disqualifying medication he said "That's
insane!" Then he said "Oh, I shouldn't say that!" <grin>


"pjbphd" > wrote in message
news:9ZPZc.193012$sh.8999@fed1read06...
> I'm taking flight lessons and was hoping to get my private pilot
certificate
> not too far down the line. Today I went in for my medical and was told by
> the examiner I have a couple problems. Although I've been asymptomatic
for
> some time I'm on a medication that is not allowed by the FAA. When I went
> to the physician who prescribed the medication (a non-pilot) he was
shocked
> that the FAA does not allow pilots to take it. Unfortunately he does not
> recommend I discontinue its use. Nor is there an alternative medication
> acceptable to the FAA.
>
>
>
> Do I have any recourse other than discontinuing the medication even though
> my physician recommends I stay on it or accepting that I won't be able to
> fly. In other words is there any kind of appeal process provided I can
get
> the prescribing physician to state the medication does not impair my
> abilities? This is particularly frustrating in that had I known the med
was
> not allowed, starting YESTERDAY I could have gone for a recreational
pilots
> certificate without a medical review, but now it's too late.
>
>
>
> Any help will be appreciated.
>
>
>
>
> --
> Too many spams have forced me to alter my email. If you wish to email me
> directly please send messages to pjbphd @ cox dot net
>
>

[Joe Morris]

>"pjbphd" > wrote:

>> I'm taking flight lessons and was hoping to get my private pilot certificate
>> not too far down the line. Today I went in for my medical and was told by
>> the examiner I have a couple problems.
[AME would not issue the certificate; remainder snipped]

(Captain Wubba) writes: [recast to bottom-post]

>Hi. I recently went through a similar process, but for a medication
>that was neither specifically approved nor disapproved for my
>particular condition. I was approved, but it took 4 months. Luckily I
>still had time remaining on the third-class privileges of my 'old'
>medical...I was just waiting on my second class, so I could still fly
>and instruct. Here is my advice, for what it is worth.

[good recommendations snipped]

Another thing that you might want to do is to look at the AME
handbook, which can be found online at

http://www.faa.gov/avr/aam/game/version_2/03amemanual/home/home.htm

where you may find the instructions which called for the AME to refuse
to give you a medical certificate...and possibly the instructions to
the AME on how to proceed from there. It is, of course, written for
a medical professional but if you skip over the medical jargon you
can get a good idea of what it's trying to say.

(I've been reading the part on cardiac issues to see what I'm going to
have to do to get back in the air after having angioplasty and a
stent implant...wish me -- and the OP -- luck.)

Joe Morris

[Dave S]

The FAA's mindset is about 30 years behind the times with regards to
their take on Psych meds.. once upon a time, the psych meds had such
crude mechanisms of action and their side effects were so severe, that
they were only used in the most severe of psychiatric illnesses..

Truth was.. back then, if you were messed up enough to need meds, then
you didnt need to be flying.

Fast forward a few decades.. the meds are much better.. more specific,
less side effects.. and they are no longer the sole realm of
Psychiatrists. Pediatricians and Family Practicioners hand out Prozac
and Zoloft like they are candy, and the cure-all for PMS, maladjustment
disorders and anything else they think a "feel good" pill would fix.
However, the FAA still has the approach that if you are out of kilter
enough to require medication, then you are out of kilter enough to be
denied a medical.

It doesnt matter what the disorder, how bad, how long, how well
adjusted.. what flavor medication.. if it's a psychotropic med, its
automatically disqualifying under that premise. Good luck with a waiver
based on demonstrated ability...

And this is not meant to be a slight to you, but rather to any newbies
who are following this... DO YOUR HOMEWORK... You wouldnt take a written
test or practical test unprepared... likewise, dont have any surprises
when you go to the medical test. Know what they are looking for, and
where you fit. AOPA is a great resource with regards to this.

Had you been aware of the limitations beforehand.. you could have
addressed in several possible ways.

1) nondisclosure (lying by omission).. which has a whole nother set of
consequences, if discovered.. but very well may have been the
"reasonable and prudent" course of action by a body of your peers..

2) a trial "drug holiday" managed closely by your primary doctor to see
if the condition requiring medication re-emerges to the point of
clinical significance (you get "sick" again)

3) a conscious decision not to pursue an exam by an AME and opt for
flying options that do not require such an exam (sport pilot)

Others have said, and I continue to say.. AOPA is a good resource with
regards to this, and many other certification related issues.

Dave

pjbphd wrote:

> Thanks for all the advice. Unfortunately from what I've found out,
> including a conversation with AOPA, I'm screwed. Almost.
>
> Here's the deal. I've been on Effoxor, an anti-depressant for a few years.
> It's not allowed by the FAA. I tired to contact the AME today, but he was
> out of the office. Hopefully I'll reach him next week. Nevertheless,
> because I've disclosed it to him, it is my understanding that he has to
> report it. Therefore, my only recourse is to discontinue it's use.
> Something I'd like to do anyway, but it's pretty sad when a medication must
> be discontinued to comply with an FAA rule. As I mentioned, I've been
> asymptomatic for some time. I've also operated fine on high elevation
> mountains (14,000 feet) while taking it with no problem.
>
> This isn't the fault of the AME, he's just the bearer of bad news. It is
> frustrating for me, but not depressing <grin>. It looks like at a minimum
> it'll put my flight training on hold for six months, and maybe permanently.
> If anyone has any additional advice, I'm open.
>
> pjbphd
>
> BTW, when the DR. who prescribed the Effexor read the FAR and AOPA
> information stating that it is a disqualifying medication he said "That's
> insane!" Then he said "Oh, I shouldn't say that!" <grin>
>
>
> "pjbphd" > wrote in message
> news:9ZPZc.193012$sh.8999@fed1read06...
>
>>I'm taking flight lessons and was hoping to get my private pilot
>
> certificate
>
>>not too far down the line. Today I went in for my medical and was told by
>>the examiner I have a couple problems. Although I've been asymptomatic
>
> for
>
>>some time I'm on a medication that is not allowed by the FAA. When I went
>>to the physician who prescribed the medication (a non-pilot) he was
>
> shocked
>
>>that the FAA does not allow pilots to take it. Unfortunately he does not
>>recommend I discontinue its use. Nor is there an alternative medication
>>acceptable to the FAA.
>>
>>
>>
>>Do I have any recourse other than discontinuing the medication even though
>>my physician recommends I stay on it or accepting that I won't be able to
>>fly. In other words is there any kind of appeal process provided I can
>
> get
>
>>the prescribing physician to state the medication does not impair my
>>abilities? This is particularly frustrating in that had I known the med
>
> was
>
>>not allowed, starting YESTERDAY I could have gone for a recreational
>
> pilots
>
>>certificate without a medical review, but now it's too late.
>>
>>
>>
>>Any help will be appreciated.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>--
>>Too many spams have forced me to alter my email. If you wish to email me
>>directly please send messages to pjbphd @ cox dot net
>>
>>
>
>
>

[Bill J]

You DON'T need a second class to 'fly and instruct'. You can do any
instructing with a third class, or lots of instructing with no medical.

Captain Wubba wrote:

> Hi. I recently went through a similar process, but for a medication
> that was neither specifically approved nor disapproved for my
> particular condition. I was approved, but it took 4 months. Luckily I
> still had time remaining on the third-class privileges of my 'old'
> medical...I was just waiting on my second class, so I could still fly
> and instruct. Here is my advice, for what it is worth.
>
> 1. Contact the AOPA, as other have suggested. They were a Godsend with
> me.
>
> 2. Ask your AME to refer the problem to the regional aeromedical
> office first, not OK City. Regional is often much faster.
>
> 3. Get a letter from your primary care physician *specifically*
> stating the following:
> a. The underlying disorder is not incapacitating, nor does it increase
> the liklihood of sudden incapacitation.
> b. That you have been asymptomatic for the underlying disorder (if
> true) for how long you have been.
> c. Thet he knows of no issues regarding either the underlying disorder
> or the treating medication that would make it unsafe in any way to
> operate a car or aircraft.
> d. That you suffer no side effects from the use of the medication, and
> have not suffered any adverse reactions in how long.
> e. That you have been stable on this medication for how long you have,
> and that it has been effective in the treatment of your disorder.
> f. That your physician has been treating you for however long he has
> been.
>
> 4. If the FAA requests any reports from specialists, contact them
> directly and advise them specifically of what the FAA is requesting.
> Approve their response before they send it. I had one specialist make
> this rambling complicated response that didn't address the specific
> requests from the aeromedical office. had I not had a chance to
> correct it, it may well have delayed my approval.
>
> 5. Keep copies of *everything*.
>
> 6. Read and understand FAR Part 67 well.
>
> If you recently went to the AME, you almost certainly have not been
> 'denied'. You have probably been deferred. The folks I talked to at
> the FAA aeromedical office told me the number one reason people do get
> denied in the end is that the FAA does not receive the information it
> needs. Doctors don't respond, or respond with the wrong kind of
> information, or applicants just give up. If the regional flight
> surgeon can't approve you, he'll defer you (in all liklihood) to OK
> City. AT this point, after a couple of weeks, the AOPA can put a
> 'tracker' on your file. It seems to help it move along, and they can
> advise you of the status and any problems that arise.
>
> The guidelines for AMEs from the FAA itself indicates that being on a
> non-approved medication is not automatically disqualifying.
>
> And just a hard-earned piece of advice for next time. Ask around and
> find out which AMEs in your area are more 'flexible' than others. Some
> of these guys are hardcore jackasses...mine was. Some will work with
> you and use common sense. Avoid the guys with a bad reputation...the
> guy I went to is no longer on the referral list of either of the
> flight schools at my airport. bad AMEs are like bad DEs...best to just
> ignore tham and don't use them. Eventually they'll get the message
> when they don't get any business.
>
> But keep at it. I talked to a lot of people, including 3 different
> AMEs during my process. Absent a few specific issues and medications,
> the FAA Aeromedical office can be pretty flexible, and seems to
> genuinely want to approve most applications.
>
> Good luck,
>
> Cap
>
>
>
> "pjbphd" > wrote in message news:<9ZPZc.193012$sh.8999@fed1read06>...
>
>>I'm taking flight lessons and was hoping to get my private pilot certificate
>>not too far down the line. Today I went in for my medical and was told by
>>the examiner I have a couple problems. Although I've been asymptomatic for
>>some time I'm on a medication that is not allowed by the FAA. When I went
>>to the physician who prescribed the medication (a non-pilot) he was shocked
>>that the FAA does not allow pilots to take it. Unfortunately he does not
>>recommend I discontinue its use. Nor is there an alternative medication
>>acceptable to the FAA.
>>
>>
>>
>>Do I have any recourse other than discontinuing the medication even though
>>my physician recommends I stay on it or accepting that I won't be able to
>>fly. In other words is there any kind of appeal process provided I can get
>>the prescribing physician to state the medication does not impair my
>>abilities? This is particularly frustrating in that had I known the med was
>>not allowed, starting YESTERDAY I could have gone for a recreational pilots
>>certificate without a medical review, but now it's too late.
>>
>>
>>
>>Any help will be appreciated.

[Peter Duniho]

"Bill J" > wrote in message
...
> You DON'T need a second class to 'fly and instruct'. You can do any
> instructing with a third class, or lots of instructing with no medical.

Not true. You need a 2nd class medical any time you are being paid to
exercise the privileges of your pilot certificate. If you are not acting as
PIC, you need no medical at all, but if you are, you need a 2nd class
medical (and a commercial pilot certificate, of course).

Pete

[Ken Balch]

Peter Duniho wrote:
> "Bill J" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>You DON'T need a second class to 'fly and instruct'. You can do any
>>instructing with a third class, or lots of instructing with no medical.
>
>
> Not true. You need a 2nd class medical any time you are being paid to
> exercise the privileges of your pilot certificate. If you are not acting as
> PIC, you need no medical at all, but if you are, you need a 2nd class
> medical (and a commercial pilot certificate, of course).

The point is that instructing is not considered by the feds to be a
commercial activity, notwithstanding the fact that a commercial
certificate is a prerequisite for the CFI. Only a third class medical
is required if the CFI is to be acting as PIC (as when giving primary
instruction). If the 'student' is a certificated pilot and can act as
PIC, then no medical is required for the CFI at all.

Ken Balch
CP-ASMEL-IA, CFI, AGI, IGI, R-AB

[Bill J]

Yes, true! I have sent several of my CFI candidates to FSDO and that
very question was part of their oral. Acting as PIC and instructing, say
a primary student, you are not being paid to carry that student as
passenger, just to instruct, so no second class medical needed.

Peter Duniho wrote:
> "Bill J" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>You DON'T need a second class to 'fly and instruct'. You can do any
>>instructing with a third class, or lots of instructing with no medical.
>
>
> Not true. You need a 2nd class medical any time you are being paid to
> exercise the privileges of your pilot certificate. If you are not acting as
> PIC, you need no medical at all, but if you are, you need a 2nd class
> medical (and a commercial pilot certificate, of course).
>
> Pete
>
>

[Bill J]

Yes, true! I have sent several of my CFI candidates to the FSDO and that
very question was part of their oral. Acting as PIC and instructing, say
a primary student, you are not being paid to carry that student as
passenger, just to instruct, so no second class medical needed.

Peter Duniho wrote:

> "Bill J" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>You DON'T need a second class to 'fly and instruct'. You can do any
>>instructing with a third class, or lots of instructing with no medical.
>
>
> Not true. You need a 2nd class medical any time you are being paid to
> exercise the privileges of your pilot certificate. If you are not acting as
> PIC, you need no medical at all, but if you are, you need a 2nd class
> medical (and a commercial pilot certificate, of course).
>
> Pete
>

>

[Bill J]

Yes, true! I have sent several of my CFI candidates to FSDO and that
very question was part of their oral. Acting as PIC and instructing, say
a primary student, you are not being paid to carry that student as
passenger, just to instruct, so no second class medical needed.

[C Kingsbury]

Dave S > wrote in message >...
> Had you been aware of the limitations beforehand.. you could have
> addressed in several possible ways.
>
> 1) nondisclosure (lying by omission).. which has a whole nother set of
> consequences, if discovered.. but very well may have been the
> "reasonable and prudent" course of action by a body of your peers..

A. Keep in mind that unless the FAA/Civil Aeromedical branch decides
to press criminal charges (unlikely), you will be going through the
administrative law system, which does not operate the way you learned
courts worked in civics class. You will be judged by an administrative
law judge, and will enjoy no presumption of innocence. If you end up
in this mess you may well find future certification impossible even if
they change the rules overall, or be fined generously.

B. OTOH I've read that they've actually been taking a more liberal
approach to "catch-up" reporting of old issues that pilots had hidden
on previous applications, the thinking being that it's better to
encourage people to come clean and handle things on the up-and-up. No
guarantee you'll get a medical but at least they probably won't press
charges. However, it would be wise to look at this carefully before
banking on it as an "out."

-cwk.

[Peter Duniho]

"Ken Balch" > wrote in message
...
> [...] Only a third class medical
> is required if the CFI is to be acting as PIC (as when giving primary
> instruction).

As long as the CFI is being paid to act as PIC (and they are, in the case of
primary training) a commercial certificate is required. If you believe
otherwise, please feel free to quote the portion of the FARs that allows a
pilot to be paid to act as PIC as an instructor without having a commercial
certificate.

> If the 'student' is a certificated pilot and can act as
> PIC, then no medical is required for the CFI at all.

Yes, this much is true, I think we all understand it, and there's no need to
belabor that point.

Pete

[Barry]

> > [...] Only a third class medical
> > is required if the CFI is to be acting as PIC (as when giving primary
> > instruction).
>
> As long as the CFI is being paid to act as PIC (and they are, in the case of
> primary training) a commercial certificate is required. If you believe
> otherwise, please feel free to quote the portion of the FARs that allows a
> pilot to be paid to act as PIC as an instructor without having a commercial
> certificate.

It is correct that a commercial certificate (or ATP) is required to hold a CFI
certificate. But this does not imply a requirement for a second class
medical. The FAA has stated that the CFI is paid to provide instruction, not
act as PIC. From the Part 61 FAQ
(http://www.faa.gov/avr/afs/afs800/docs/pt61FAQ.doc):

To be eligible for a flight instructor certificate or rating, § 61.183(c)
requires a person to hold a commercial pilot certificate or airline transport
pilot certificate with the appropriate category and class rating... There is
no
provision for a person to obtain or hold a flight instructor certificate
without a commercial or ATP certificate. But "holding" a commercial or ATP
certificate does not demand a valid medical. Only the performance of given
privileges require a specific class medical per § 61.23(a) (1), (2), or (3).


QUESTION: Do the rules permit a flight instructor to even receive compensation
for instruction when that flight instructor holds only a third class medical,
or maybe does not even hold a current medical certificate at all?

ANSWER: § 61.23(b)(5); Yes, in accordance with § 61.23(b)(5), a flight
instructor who does not hold a medical certificate may give flight and ground
training and be compensated for it. In the preamble of the parts 61 and 141
final rule that was published in the Federal Register on April 4, 1997 (62 FR
16220-16367) when the FAA revised the entire Part 61, the FAA stated the
following in the Federal Register on page 16242 in response to whether a
medical certificate is required for a flight instructor to give ground and
flight training:

" With respect to the holding of medical certificates by a flight instructor,
the FAA has determined that the compensation a certificated flight instructor
receives for flight instruction is not compensation for piloting the aircraft,
but rather is compensation for the instruction. A certificated flight
instructor who is acting as pilot in command or as a required flight
crewmember and is receiving compensation for his or her flight instruction is
only exercising the privileges of a private pilot. A certificated flight
instructor who is acting as pilot in command or as a required flight
crewmember and receiving compensation for his or her flight instruction is not
carrying passengers or property for compensation or hire, nor is he or she,
for compensation or hire, acting as pilot in command of an aircraft. . . . In
this same regard, the FAA has determined that a certificated flight instructor
on board an aircraft for the purpose of providing flight instruction, who does
not act as pilot in command or function as a required flight crewmember, is
not performing or exercising pilot privileges that would require him or her to
possess a valid medical certificate under the FARs."

[Peter Duniho]

"Barry" > wrote in message ...
> [...]
> The FAA has stated that the CFI is paid to provide instruction, not
> act as PIC. From the Part 61 FAQ
> (http://www.faa.gov/avr/afs/afs800/docs/pt61FAQ.doc):

If you say so. The CFI's presence in the plane is not "incidental" to the
flight, and they certainly *are* being paid to act as PIC, as well as teach.
Furthermore, the "privileges of the flight instructor certificate" do not
call out getting paid to act as PIC. Only the privileges of the commercial
(and ATC, of course) do.

But, of course, as we all know, if the Part 61 FAQ says it, it must be true.

In any case, it wouldn't be the first time the FAA came up with an absurd
interpretation of their own rules. At least this time it's in the pilot's
favor.

Pete

[Barry]

> But, of course, as we all know, if the Part 61 FAQ says it, it must be true.
>
> In any case, it wouldn't be the first time the FAA came up with an absurd
> interpretation of their own rules. At least this time it's in the pilot's
> favor.

Like you, I disagree with some of what's in the FAQ. The big difference here
is that the explanation of the CFI medical issue was included in the Federal
Register when the new Part 61 was published. So it's not the usual
after-the-fact interpretation. Certainly they could have made this clearer by
restating it in the actual regulation.

[Robert M. Gary]

"Barry" > wrote in message >...
> > > [...] Only a third class medical
> > > is required if the CFI is to be acting as PIC (as when giving primary
> > > instruction).
> >
> > As long as the CFI is being paid to act as PIC (and they are, in the case of
> > primary training) a commercial certificate is required.

Of course, the FAA says CFIs are paid to teach and not paid to fly.
That is why we are only required to hold a class 3 medical. If the
student is rated in the airplane we are not required to hold any
medical certificate.

[Captain Wubba]

Wrong Peter,

A CFI is being paid to *instruct*, not to fly. To instruct and act as
PIC, one needs only a third-class medical. This is well established,
and in fact was on on my CFI Oral.

You are mistaken. if you don't believe me, give your FDSO a buzz.

Cheers,

Cap


"Peter Duniho" > wrote in message >...
> "Bill J" > wrote in message
> ...
> > You DON'T need a second class to 'fly and instruct'. You can do any
> > instructing with a third class, or lots of instructing with no medical.
>
> Not true. You need a 2nd class medical any time you are being paid to
> exercise the privileges of your pilot certificate. If you are not acting as
> PIC, you need no medical at all, but if you are, you need a 2nd class
> medical (and a commercial pilot certificate, of course).
>
> Pete

[Captain Wubba]

Bill J > wrote in message >...
> You DON'T need a second class to 'fly and instruct'. You can do any
> instructing with a third class, or lots of instructing with no medical.
>

Yes, Bill, I know this well, since that was precisely what I was doing
:) I realize that what I wrote could be interpreted two ways. What I
intended it to say was 'luckily, I still had time remaining on my
third-class privileges, so that I could instruct using them. I was
just waiting for my second class prvilieges to be reinstated.

Cap


> Captain Wubba wrote:


>
> > Hi. I recently went through a similar process, but for a medication
> > that was neither specifically approved nor disapproved for my
> > particular condition. I was approved, but it took 4 months. Luckily I
> > still had time remaining on the third-class privileges of my 'old'
> > medical...I was just waiting on my second class, so I could still fly
> > and instruct. Here is my advice, for what it is worth.
> >
> > 1. Contact the AOPA, as other have suggested. They were a Godsend with
> > me.
> >
> > 2. Ask your AME to refer the problem to the regional aeromedical
> > office first, not OK City. Regional is often much faster.
> >
> > 3. Get a letter from your primary care physician *specifically*
> > stating the following:
> > a. The underlying disorder is not incapacitating, nor does it increase
> > the liklihood of sudden incapacitation.
> > b. That you have been asymptomatic for the underlying disorder (if
> > true) for how long you have been.
> > c. Thet he knows of no issues regarding either the underlying disorder
> > or the treating medication that would make it unsafe in any way to
> > operate a car or aircraft.
> > d. That you suffer no side effects from the use of the medication, and
> > have not suffered any adverse reactions in how long.
> > e. That you have been stable on this medication for how long you have,
> > and that it has been effective in the treatment of your disorder.
> > f. That your physician has been treating you for however long he has
> > been.
> >
> > 4. If the FAA requests any reports from specialists, contact them
> > directly and advise them specifically of what the FAA is requesting.
> > Approve their response before they send it. I had one specialist make
> > this rambling complicated response that didn't address the specific
> > requests from the aeromedical office. had I not had a chance to
> > correct it, it may well have delayed my approval.
> >
> > 5. Keep copies of *everything*.
> >
> > 6. Read and understand FAR Part 67 well.
> >
> > If you recently went to the AME, you almost certainly have not been
> > 'denied'. You have probably been deferred. The folks I talked to at
> > the FAA aeromedical office told me the number one reason people do get
> > denied in the end is that the FAA does not receive the information it
> > needs. Doctors don't respond, or respond with the wrong kind of
> > information, or applicants just give up. If the regional flight
> > surgeon can't approve you, he'll defer you (in all liklihood) to OK
> > City. AT this point, after a couple of weeks, the AOPA can put a
> > 'tracker' on your file. It seems to help it move along, and they can
> > advise you of the status and any problems that arise.
> >
> > The guidelines for AMEs from the FAA itself indicates that being on a
> > non-approved medication is not automatically disqualifying.
> >
> > And just a hard-earned piece of advice for next time. Ask around and
> > find out which AMEs in your area are more 'flexible' than others. Some
> > of these guys are hardcore jackasses...mine was. Some will work with
> > you and use common sense. Avoid the guys with a bad reputation...the
> > guy I went to is no longer on the referral list of either of the
> > flight schools at my airport. bad AMEs are like bad DEs...best to just
> > ignore tham and don't use them. Eventually they'll get the message
> > when they don't get any business.
> >
> > But keep at it. I talked to a lot of people, including 3 different
> > AMEs during my process. Absent a few specific issues and medications,
> > the FAA Aeromedical office can be pretty flexible, and seems to
> > genuinely want to approve most applications.
> >
> > Good luck,
> >
> > Cap
> >
> >
> >
> > "pjbphd" > wrote in message news:<9ZPZc.193012$sh.8999@fed1read06>...
> >
> >>I'm taking flight lessons and was hoping to get my private pilot certificate
> >>not too far down the line. Today I went in for my medical and was told by
> >>the examiner I have a couple problems. Although I've been asymptomatic for
> >>some time I'm on a medication that is not allowed by the FAA. When I went
> >>to the physician who prescribed the medication (a non-pilot) he was shocked
> >>that the FAA does not allow pilots to take it. Unfortunately he does not
> >>recommend I discontinue its use. Nor is there an alternative medication
> >>acceptable to the FAA.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>Do I have any recourse other than discontinuing the medication even though
> >>my physician recommends I stay on it or accepting that I won't be able to
> >>fly. In other words is there any kind of appeal process provided I can get
> >>the prescribing physician to state the medication does not impair my
> >>abilities? This is particularly frustrating in that had I known the med was
> >>not allowed, starting YESTERDAY I could have gone for a recreational pilots
> >>certificate without a medical review, but now it's too late.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>Any help will be appreciated.

[[email protected]]

I do not agree with most of the posters here. The FAA develops rules
based upon the pertinent facts and circumstances which are then
subjected to extensive review; they do not act capriciously. If one is
taking some med that is prohibited there may be some side effect which
may impair judgement or other function and that is why it is
prohibited. Someone mentioned Prossac as being dispensed like candy.
This is true. Prossac, is now a generic (read cheap) and is being
dispensed as a palliative for every possible situation (applicable or
not), freely. Prossac has side effects (suicidal tendencies for one)
that were "under reported" for a long time while it was still under
patent. Other meds may be the same.

Some over the counter meds are also hazardous and I believe prohibited.
Benadryl is a good example of this. If one is taking this med for
allegies on a regular basis one should not be flying because in
sustained doses it is a depressant and will certainly impair judgement
(I speak from personal expierience here).

Finally, I think the sport pilot rules eliminating the need for a
medical exam are not wise and will prove to be a taint on GA. People
who should not be flying solo for medical should not be flying solo.
In my opinion those folks should join a club and buddy up with an
unrestricted pilot or find a CFI(paid) to fly with.

Those are my 2cents.

Paul


pjbphd wrote:
> I'm taking flight lessons and was hoping to get my private pilot
certificate
> not too far down the line. Today I went in for my medical and was
told by
> the examiner I have a couple problems. Although I've been
asymptomatic for
> some time I'm on a medication that is not allowed by the FAA. When I
went
> to the physician who prescribed the medication (a non-pilot) he was
shocked
> that the FAA does not allow pilots to take it. Unfortunately he does
not
> recommend I discontinue its use. Nor is there an alternative
medication
> acceptable to the FAA.
>
>
>
> Do I have any recourse other than discontinuing the medication even
though
> my physician recommends I stay on it or accepting that I won't be
able to
> fly. In other words is there any kind of appeal process provided I
can get
> the prescribing physician to state the medication does not impair my
> abilities? This is particularly frustrating in that had I known the
med was
> not allowed, starting YESTERDAY I could have gone for a recreational
pilots
> certificate without a medical review, but now it's too late.
>
>
>
> Any help will be appreciated.
>
>
>
>
> --
> Too many spams have forced me to alter my email. If you wish to
email me
> directly please send messages to pjbphd @ cox dot net

[dennis brown]

Well, in some over 40 years of flying, I might point out a few areas of
evolution in the medical area. Remember when color blindness was
a big deal? Then they relaxed the rules a bit. Remember when glasses
were a big deal? Then they relaxed the rules a bit. Remember jumping
up and down on one foot? Done that lately? How about the doc whispering
behind your back? In other words, when statistics are obvious, the
FAA has done some things. The non-medical may be one of those cases.

Statistics are available for non-medical pilots. Glider pilots do not have
to have medicals. They self-certify in that they agree not to fly they
shouldn't
be flying. As I understand it, the rate of accidents due to medical
conditions in glider pilots is not statistically different than in the
general
pilot population.

It seems quite obvious to me that medicals have been used as a weed-out
device more than a safety device.

There is an argument to be made that NO FAA medical may be healthier than a
medical. I have heard of pilots NOT going to their doctors because if they
did go to a doctor, it would need to be reported, and explained, on the
flight
physical.




wrote in message ...
>I do not agree with most of the posters here. The FAA develops rules
>based upon the pertinent facts and circumstances which are then
>subjected to extensive review; they do not act capriciously. If one is
>taking some med that is prohibited there may be some side effect which
>may impair judgement or other function and that is why it is
>prohibited. Someone mentioned Prossac as being dispensed like candy.
>This is true. Prossac, is now a generic (read cheap) and is being
>dispensed as a palliative for every possible situation (applicable or
>not), freely. Prossac has side effects (suicidal tendencies for one)
>that were "under reported" for a long time while it was still under
>patent. Other meds may be the same.
>
>Some over the counter meds are also hazardous and I believe prohibited.
>Benadryl is a good example of this. If one is taking this med for
>allegies on a regular basis one should not be flying because in
>sustained doses it is a depressant and will certainly impair judgement
>(I speak from personal expierience here).
>
>Finally, I think the sport pilot rules eliminating the need for a
>medical exam are not wise and will prove to be a taint on GA. People
>who should not be flying solo for medical should not be flying solo.
>In my opinion those folks should join a club and buddy up with an
>unrestricted pilot or find a CFI(paid) to fly with.
>
>Those are my 2cents.
>
>Paul
>
>
>pjbphd wrote:
>> I'm taking flight lessons and was hoping to get my private pilot
>certificate
>> not too far down the line. Today I went in for my medical and was
>told by
>> the examiner I have a couple problems. Although I've been
>asymptomatic for
>> some time I'm on a medication that is not allowed by the FAA. When I
>went
>> to the physician who prescribed the medication (a non-pilot) he was
>shocked
>> that the FAA does not allow pilots to take it. Unfortunately he does
>not
>> recommend I discontinue its use. Nor is there an alternative
>medication
>> acceptable to the FAA.
>>
>>
>>
>> Do I have any recourse other than discontinuing the medication even
>though
>> my physician recommends I stay on it or accepting that I won't be
>able to
>> fly. In other words is there any kind of appeal process provided I
>can get
>> the prescribing physician to state the medication does not impair my
>> abilities? This is particularly frustrating in that had I known the
>med was
>> not allowed, starting YESTERDAY I could have gone for a recreational
>pilots
>> certificate without a medical review, but now it's too late.
>>
>>
>>
>> Any help will be appreciated.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Too many spams have forced me to alter my email. If you wish to
>email me
>> directly please send messages to pjbphd @ cox dot net
>

[Cub Driver]

On 6 Sep 2004 06:46:08 -0700, "
> wrote:

>The FAA develops rules
>based upon the pertinent facts and circumstances which are then
>subjected to extensive review; they do not act capriciously.

Certainly not! What we know about the FAA, and what we fear most, is
that it does not act at all. No bureaucrat ever gets into trouble
because he declines an application. Nor does he get into trouble
because he adds a medication to the prohbited list. And the chances of
him taking it off the list, therefore, are exactly zero.

all the best -- Dan Ford
email: (put Cubdriver in subject line)

The Warbird's Forum www.warbirdforum.com
Expedition sailboat charters www.expeditionsail.com

[Cub Driver]

On Mon, 6 Sep 2004 21:16:47 -0500, "dennis brown" >
wrote:

> Remember jumping
>up and down on one foot? Done that lately? How about the doc whispering
>behind your back?

Actually, I did the foot thing in my first two physicals, and the
whispering thing in the third, this past January.


all the best -- Dan Ford
email: (put Cubdriver in subject line)

The Warbird's Forum www.warbirdforum.com
Expedition sailboat charters www.expeditionsail.com

[Paul Sengupta]

> wrote in message
...
> Finally, I think the sport pilot rules eliminating the need for a
> medical exam are not wise and will prove to be a taint on GA. People
> who should not be flying solo for medical should not be flying solo.

Well, the CAA here in the UK disagree with you. For a while now
they've had the NPPL which is a National PPL. This doesn't require
a medical, just a note from your doctor that you're fit to drive a
lorry (truck for you US people!).

http://www.caa.co.uk/srg/med/default.asp?page=873

"The reason for this change is because the CAA Medical Division
believes that an accurate knowledge of a pilot's medical history is
often more likely than a physical examination to predict the risk of
a future in-flight medical incapacitation. "

Under ICAO rules, for a full PPL which allows you to fly anywhere
in the world, you have to have a medical, that's why they keep the
requirement.

Paul

[ET]

I've said it before here, with sport pilot out you MUST know if the meds
your taking etc are going to fail you or cause you trouble BEFORE going to
get your medical.

I believe EAA & AOPA have people who can help determine this (not 100% but
better than none)

Too late for this guy, but for the rest of us, better to be a sport pilot
than grounded.

ET - (not yet a student pilot)

[Dan Youngquist]

On Sat, 4 Sep 2004, Barry wrote:

> In this same regard, the FAA has determined that a certificated flight
> instructor on board an aircraft for the purpose of providing flight
> instruction, who does not act as pilot in command or function as a
> required flight crewmember, is not performing or exercising pilot
> privileges that would require him or her to possess a valid medical
> certificate under the FARs."

So can a CFI without a valid medical give flight training to a student
pilot who has a current medical, but not a private certificate? In this
case, is the student or the CFI acting as PIC? It looks like that's what
the answer hinges on. Does it make a difference whether the student is
pre- or post-solo?

-Dan

[Allen]

"Dan Youngquist" > wrote in message
hell.org...
> On Sat, 4 Sep 2004, Barry wrote:
>
> > In this same regard, the FAA has determined that a certificated flight
> > instructor on board an aircraft for the purpose of providing flight
> > instruction, who does not act as pilot in command or function as a
> > required flight crewmember, is not performing or exercising pilot
> > privileges that would require him or her to possess a valid medical
> > certificate under the FARs."
>
> So can a CFI without a valid medical give flight training to a student
> pilot who has a current medical, but not a private certificate? In this
> case, is the student or the CFI acting as PIC? It looks like that's what
> the answer hinges on. Does it make a difference whether the student is
> pre- or post-solo?
>
> -Dan

No, student ca not act as PIC with passenger (CFI).

Allen

[G.R. Patterson III]

dennis brown wrote:
>
> I have heard of pilots NOT going to their doctors because if they
> did go to a doctor, it would need to be reported, and explained, on the
> flight physical.

I've done that in a way. I postponed seeing my regular physician about a complaint
until after my flight physical (which had to be taken within a month, as it turned
out). I knew that I basically was self-certifying for two years after I took that
physical and suspected that I might be grounded for at least a year if I saw my
doctor before taking it. So it only made sense to get the physical first.

The eventual diagnosis was benign positional vertigo, and I didn't fly much for a
while.

George Patterson
If you want to know God's opinion of money, just look at the people
he gives it to.