Crash Videos

[SelwayKid]

I can't believe how the video broohah got this group so stirred up and
how it created animosity that may never go away.
I am a proponent of seeing those videos and see if I can learn from
them. And, to clarify it, I've been flying more than 50 years, got
almost 22,000 hours now and have done just about everything in general
aviation. I've crashed and got scars to show for it. I also learned
from my mistakes and endeavor to pass along the wisdom derived from
them.
I am not published in any Who's Who, and don't make any claims to be
the ace of the base. I don't fly fighter jets, don't do airshows or
demonstrations of high performance aircraft. I don't claim to be a
co-author of any noteworthy publications that weigh 7 pounds and
relate to flight safety.
All I am is a pilot who has done a lot of flying, made a lot of
mistakes and never killed anyone that wasn't supposed to be killed. I
try to conduct myself as a gentleman and professional with due regard
for those I am speaking to. Yes I get abrasive from time to time and
will definately stand my ground when I feel I am right along with an
attempt at a coherent and cogent response.
Over a number of years in my participation on the news groups I think
I have proven my point and position without resorting to profanity.
While I can understand the frustration and desires to do so, it never
was fruitful for me.
So, once again, I am not afraid to look at crash videos and see what I
can glean from them. Disregard the accompanying comments or
descriptions of the bystanders or the audio feed...they are often by
people who can't tell their right from left and ZERO understanding of
what they are looking at? Pick out what you can to avoid doing the
same thing in the future.
There...I feel much better.
OK here it is again.....ATP,ASMELSR(IFR), CFII/RAM Gold Seal (issued
in 1967) and a flight background that makes many people shake their
head. 13,000+ FW and 8,000+ RW worldwide. I'm still active as a CFI FW
and helicopter pilot.
Yes I know there are those who have more and more. I'm just posting it
for my own qualifications and argument position.
As a kind of ????? Those who don't learn from history are doomed to
repeat it? How about accidents and incidents?
Ol Shy & Bashful

[Dave]

SelwayKid wrote:

<snip>

As a lurker, I'll say this post has merits. SeklwayKid stuck his/her
neck out and told stories and thoughts.
That is as good as any "crash video".

Dudley hates em, and I can understand why.

~d

[SeeAndAvoid]

I stayed out of that other topic as it became a ****ing contest between
two people that should've gone private a LONG time ago.

On the videos...when I was visiting Ground Zero a couple months
ago, there were these asian folks trying to sell "cool" books of
pictures of 9/11 at the site with a smile on their face. The mood
there was understandably pretty somber, but it was turning to
anger with these clowns hanging around and pushing their product.
I look at the guy who started this whole subject, who I'd never
personally seen in these groups before, the same way. Usually
people like him, with blatant advertising, who wasnt a regular
poster on here, would be ran out so fast it made the head spin.
Many people put up with Jay's advertising because he has been
here for a long while, before the hotel, isn't a troll, and posts
on all kinds of subjects. This other guy wasn't that at all, he just
lobs a molotov coctail of a link, and tries to justify his site that would
usually end up with everyone flaming or plonking him. Why the
special treatment?

It's nothing but sensational aviation snuff videos. If that does it
for you, have at it. It isn't censorship if someone doesnt agree
with showing them to the world with glee. Censorship is demanding
they be taken down, which I didnt hear in Dudleys (much too long)
comments. We all know there is that portion of society that likes
to see this stuff, they also like reality-tv, which, I dont know about
you, I can't wait for that fad to permanently go away. I guess some
people need to see misery, death, and destruction to either feel
"alive" or be consoled that they don't have it so bad after all. A
pretty pathetic existence IMNSHO.

Jay, I didnt see the part of your site with the crash videos, and assume
it's been altered now. But I keep up several sites that change with
time, I get the impression you added videos that weren't so "cool"
but didnt change the page description? There's not much an excuse
for a mistake like that, there is nothing to enjoy or that is cool
about the kinds of videos people have been discussing on here.
The 9/11 shots are important in that we never forget, but sure arent
enjoyable or cool, once again, in my opinion.

Chris
--
Steve Bosell for President 2004
"Vote for me or I'll sue you"
www.philhendrieshow.com

[Trent Moorehead]

"SelwayKid" > wrote in message
om...
> I can't believe how the video broohah got this group so stirred up and
> how it created animosity that may never go away.

Good post. The threads that have degenerated into personal profane attacks
are truly beneath the caliber of this group. There have been several of them
lately.

Without naming names, I am very disappointed in the folks who have resorted
to obscene tactics because I always enjoyed their posts in the past. Sad.

If you can't make your point without using personal attacks and profanity,
please take it offline, otherwise you are defacing this otherwise great
group. And you end up looking like a jerk to boot.

-Trent
PP-ASEL

[Morgans]

"Trent Moorehead" > wrote >
> Without naming names, I am very disappointed in the folks who have
resorted
> to obscene tactics because I always enjoyed their posts in the past. Sad.


Agreed. When I pointed that out, I was called what? An idiot? I don't
remember. Not important.

I am here for enjoyment, and enlightenment, and when a person interrupts
that, I don't need them.
--
Jim in NC




---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.752 / Virus Database: 503 - Release Date: 9/3/2004

[Jay Honeck]

> Jay, I didnt see the part of your site with the crash videos, and assume
> it's been altered now. But I keep up several sites that change with
> time, I get the impression you added videos that weren't so "cool"
> but didnt change the page description? There's not much an excuse
> for a mistake like that, there is nothing to enjoy or that is cool
> about the kinds of videos people have been discussing on here.
> The 9/11 shots are important in that we never forget, but sure arent
> enjoyable or cool, once again, in my opinion.

To which I pled guilty early on in that horrible, bitter thread.

I've already altered a couple of the less appropriate phrases on the site
(which can be seen at http://alexisparkinn.com/aviation_videos.htm ), but I
haven't had time to tinker with it much. (As can be noted by the fact that
it still says "Enjoy!" after my little primer on how to make the videos
play. That single word, written long before any "disaster" type videos were
added to the site, inflamed poor Dudley to the point of apoplexy.)

As I explained elsewhere, I consider this page to be an insignificant,
off-topic page in a gigantic website, on a par with my page on "Fly-in
Museums." I put it together long ago, and have only added videos as people
have sent them to me in little dribs and drabs over the years.

The fact that I never again looked at the header for the page as I added new
(and more disastrous) video is a shame, and something I truly regret.
However, this fact would never have come to light at all had I not sent the
URL to Dudley for his critique, in hopes that he would actually help me
write some safety-related captions for each video.

THAT turned out to be a truly dumb idea, but it was all quite innocent, I
assure you.

Either way, I will be making major changes to the page in the coming days,
but right now I've got a full house and pilots here from both coasts to take
care of first.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Dudley Henriques]

"SelwayKid" > wrote in message
om...
I don't claim to be a
> co-author of any noteworthy publications that weigh 7 pounds and
> relate to flight safety.

Just a slight correction here, and the rest of the post is fine.

"Zero Error Margin" is a stand alone volume completely written by Gen
Des Barker of the SAAF. Gen Barker gathered together an international
team of professional air show demonstration pilots who contributed their
time and energy to the project at no charge.
The book contains probably the world's most comprehensive data base on
air show related accidents ranging from 1952 to the present. All major
and even minor accidents were covered complete with full reports, and
reviews from professional demonstration pilots who comment on how these
accidents might have been prevented.
Although my comments appear throughout the book on various subjects
relating to airshow demonstration flight safety, demonstration pilot
physical and mental conditioning, and misc other comment, my main
contribution was a comprehensive report on low altitude vertical
recoveries in vintage prop fighters which appears in the chapter "Flying
the Demonstration". This report was also carried in Aeroplane Monthly
Feb issue 2004 in a feature article by Gen Barker "Precision Decision"
I was simply a small part of a world wide team invited to take part in
this project.
I was NOT the co-author of the book.
Returning you now to your discussion.
Dudley Henriques
International Fighter Pilots Fellowship

[Jay Honeck]

> Agreed. When I pointed that out, I was called what? An idiot? I don't
> remember. Not important.
>
> I am here for enjoyment, and enlightenment, and when a person interrupts
> that, I don't need them.

Well, Jim, I always try to remember where I am, and to keep a thick skin
along with a good sense of humor. Usenet ain't for wimps.

Shoot, I was called far worse than "idiot" in that thread, but, hell, Weir
has called me worse than that on a GOOD day. ;-) In the end it's good to
always remember that we're all here for the same reason: A love of
aviation.

Nothing should obscure that.

Dudley can be a passionate, mouthy, profane, goofy-as-hell, arrogant dolt --
but he also happens to know stuff about many aspects of aviation that I
don't know, and can never personally experience. He is also passionate
about what he knows, and is willing to stand up for what he believes --
which is a helluva lot more than I can say for a lot of the mealy-mouthed
folks I've met here over the years.

What he says may be wrong as hell, but I'll defend to the death his right to
say it.

As a result, I won't killfile him, and would, in fact, still offer him a
beer if he were to land at my airport. We might beat each other half to
death, if that were to actually happen, but, in the end, I will have learned
a thing or three that I couldn't have learned from anyone else.

Sometimes you've got to take a lot of bad to see the good.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Darkwing Duck \(Infidel\)]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
news:55Q%c.2868$MQ5.2565@attbi_s52...
> > Jay, I didnt see the part of your site with the crash videos, and assume
> > it's been altered now. But I keep up several sites that change with
> > time, I get the impression you added videos that weren't so "cool"
> > but didnt change the page description? There's not much an excuse
> > for a mistake like that, there is nothing to enjoy or that is cool
> > about the kinds of videos people have been discussing on here.
> > The 9/11 shots are important in that we never forget, but sure arent
> > enjoyable or cool, once again, in my opinion.
>
> To which I pled guilty early on in that horrible, bitter thread.
>
> I've already altered a couple of the less appropriate phrases on the site
> (which can be seen at http://alexisparkinn.com/aviation_videos.htm ), but
I
> haven't had time to tinker with it much. (As can be noted by the fact
that
> it still says "Enjoy!" after my little primer on how to make the videos
> play. That single word, written long before any "disaster" type videos
were
> added to the site, inflamed poor Dudley to the point of apoplexy.)
>
> As I explained elsewhere, I consider this page to be an insignificant,
> off-topic page in a gigantic website, on a par with my page on "Fly-in
> Museums." I put it together long ago, and have only added videos as
people
> have sent them to me in little dribs and drabs over the years.
>
> The fact that I never again looked at the header for the page as I added
new
> (and more disastrous) video is a shame, and something I truly regret.
> However, this fact would never have come to light at all had I not sent
the
> URL to Dudley for his critique, in hopes that he would actually help me
> write some safety-related captions for each video.
>
> THAT turned out to be a truly dumb idea, but it was all quite innocent, I
> assure you.
>
> Either way, I will be making major changes to the page in the coming days,
> but right now I've got a full house and pilots here from both coasts to
take
> care of first.
> --
> Jay Honeck
> Iowa City, IA
> Pathfinder N56993
> www.AlexisParkInn.com
> "Your Aviation Destination"


I think making any changes is a mistake. Ask 100 people get 101 opinions.
I've watched 90% of the videos and I've seen pretty much every one of them
on TLC, History Channel or Discovery Channel at some point. Ignoring reality
won't make it go away, we just need to learn from our mistakes and everyone
else's. The old pilot adage of learn from other peoples mistakes because you
won't live long making them all yourself is extremely true. Pick up a copy
of Flying Magazine or Plane and Pilot, there is always stories of people
getting themselves killed with lots of good tips on what to do and not to do
to avoid the same fate.

----------------------------------------

[Bob Fry]

"Jay Honeck" > writes:

> and would, in fact, still offer him a
> beer if he were to land at my airport. We might beat each other half to
> death, if that were to actually happen,

Gee. I didn't get either the beer or the beating when I landed at
your airport last year. Sniff :-(

[Jay Honeck]

> > and would, in fact, still offer him a
> > beer if he were to land at my airport. We might beat each other half
to
> > death, if that were to actually happen,
>
> Gee. I didn't get either the beer or the beating when I landed at
> your airport last year. Sniff :-(

Yeah, sorry about that -- we were really busy, doing what I can't remember.

What month were you in town? Wasn't I getting ready to leave when you
checked in, or something?
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[tony roberts]

My problem with this thread has nothing to do with whether watching
accident videos makes us safer pilots - it often does (I have watched
several of Scott Gardiners at Arlington) and everything to do with the
intent of the owner of the site.
And it seems to me that he doesn't care about contributing to pilot
safety - his interest is in filming aviation accidents, and I truly
believe that when he leaves an airshow where there wasn't an
accident/incident, he feels cheated.
It kind of reminds me of a few years ago when I was in Lahore, and I was
approached by 2 individuals, one carrying a mongoose and one carrying a
cobra who wanted me to pay them 200 rupees to watch a private fight to
the death between the snake and the mongoose.
I told them I would pay them 1000 rupees to watch them fight to the
death instead. They couldn't understand my point - this guy wouldn't
either.
I have to ask why he didn't collect video of
spectacular/unusual/daring/precision airshow performances.
No - just crashes. And his posting on rec. aviation.piloting I can
accept. But his posting on rec.aviation.student is totally innapropriate
and could never be construed as constructive.

But then we have to consider where we are.
Usernet?
And more important - we have to ask who the hell is this guy?
Did any of you ever hear of him before this post?
I sure as hell didn't.

Is this whole thing just one more spam?
Let's face it - his site doesn't even bloody work!
I went to look, and give him the benefit of the doubt, and could only go
between his stupid helicopter (They were trying to hit him but missed -
that's why they crashed - can't he see that) and his links that bore no
relevance to the topic.
Where are the 100 videos? I sure as hell can't find them.
I agree with previous posters - let's move on - this creep surely ain't
worth falling out over

Tony
--

Tony Roberts
PP-ASEL
VFR OTT
Night
Cessna 172H C-GICE

[Jim Fisher]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
> Dudley can be a passionate, mouthy, profane, goofy-as-hell, arrogant
dolt --


Don't forget "certificate waiving" and "pompous" . . . and the longest sig
in Usenet.

--
Jim Fisher

[Jay Honeck]

> Don't forget "certificate waiving" and "pompous" . . . and the longest sig
> in Usenet.

Hey, in the middle of that thread I started thinking about adding "AOPA
Project Mentor Pilot" and "AOPA Airport Representative" to my signature
line -- but it just didn't look cool enough next all that "Fighter Pilot"
stuff...

;-)
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Dylan Smith]

In article <55Q%c.2868$MQ5.2565@attbi_s52>, Jay Honeck wrote:
> To which I pled guilty early on in that horrible, bitter thread.

Yeah, we haven't had a thread like that since the fishy thing about 5
years ago.

--
Dylan Smith, Castletown, Isle of Man
Flying: http://www.dylansmith.net
Frontier Elite Universe: http://www.alioth.net
"Maintain thine airspeed, lest the ground come up and smite thee"

[Dylan Smith]

In article <hgQ%c.151040$Fg5.131580@attbi_s53>, Jay Honeck wrote:
> beer if he were to land at my airport. We might beat each other half to
> death, if that were to actually happen, but, in the end, I will have learned

People are often a lot different in meatspace.

My Dad told me about people he worked with having 'Bakelite Bravery' -
i.e. they could yell and scream and swear at people over the phone, but
would never do it face to face. Made me chuckle, I've seen that a lot in
USENET.

--
Dylan Smith, Castletown, Isle of Man
Flying: http://www.dylansmith.net
Frontier Elite Universe: http://www.alioth.net
"Maintain thine airspeed, lest the ground come up and smite thee"

[Jim Fisher]

"Dylan Smith" > wrote in message
> People are often a lot different in meatspace.

There was actually a psychology study performed on this subject that I read
about some time ago. The researchers gathered data on what cyber-citizens
thought of each other: how they thought each other looked and various
quantifiable personality traits.

After compiling the data, the researchers had the cyber-citizens meet in
meatspace then interviewed the citizens again.

It is no surprise to me that what people *thought* other people were like in
real life were not even close to reality.

A notable exception in this group is Mr. Honeck here. He's as "real" in
meatspace as he is in real life. That's a compliment, Mr. Jay.

On the other hand, most of you probably think I'm a studly, low-wing kinda
guy with redneck tendencies that tall, blonde, supermodels dig. In real
life I'm . . . Well, that's pretty accurate.

Never mind.

--
Jim Fisher

[Maule Driver]

"Dylan Smith" > wrote
> People are often a lot different in meatspace.
>
> My Dad told me about people he worked with having 'Bakelite Bravery' -

"Daddy, what is Bakelite?" ...only joking, I've been around long enough.

Bakelite to Meatspace, that's quite a span of time. Ain't it great?

[C Kingsbury]

tony roberts > wrote in message news:<nospam-F8B576.22245708092004@shawnews>...

> My problem with this thread has nothing to do with whether watching
> accident videos makes us safer pilots - it often does (I have watched
> several of Scott Gardiners at Arlington) and everything to do with the
> intent of the owner of the site.

When I went to get my float rating, the first thing the instructor did
was show me film shot for the opening scene of a movie ("Mother Lode"
IIRC) that features a Beaver landing a little too nose-low and doing
somersaults. It was supposed to just land but it crashed instead
(nobody killed) and they decided to work it into the story.

> safety - his interest is in filming aviation accidents, and I truly
> believe that when he leaves an airshow where there wasn't an
> accident/incident, he feels cheated.

I kind of doubt that... I think people on average enjoy and are
stimulated by the existence of danger, but when an actual accident
occurs, the "oh my God I hope they're OK" response takes over.

> It kind of reminds me of a few years ago when I was in Lahore, and I was
> approached by 2 individuals, one carrying a mongoose and one carrying a
> cobra who wanted me to pay them 200 rupees to watch a private fight to
> the death between the snake and the mongoose.

I've been to the bullfights in Spain- something like a combination
between opera, the Mass, and a visit to the butcher shop. There is
some redeeming culture value and supposedly all the beef gets donated
to charities.


Cheers,
-cwk.

[Jay Honeck]

> It is no surprise to me that what people *thought* other people were like
in
> real life were not even close to reality.

Hee hee!

Last night "Doug" -- a fellow from out west who flies a Husky on amphibious
floats (he hangs out mostly in .owning and .student) -- quite literally
dropped in out of the blue, on his way to a floatplane fly-in out east.

When he called the Inn from the airport, he was ****ed that I wasn't going
to be around for a couple of days. He got over that in a hurry, when we
picked him up at the terminal, drove him over to our hangar, and there were
a bunch of people actually grilling out and drinking beer, just like I
always talk about! (Bill and Sharon, a couple who flew in from Maryland in
their gorgeous Luscombe, were there, too. Bill's a retired United Air Lines
pilot, and Sharon is a *gasp* IRS employee who also owns here own Luscombe.
They actually own THREE Luscombes! But I digress...)

As he chewed his barbecue chicken sandwich, Doug seemed sort of befuddled by
it all, in a good way. He even mentioned that he wasn't sure if I had made
up EVERYTHING, from the Inn, to my kids, to Mary, to Atlas -- and he seemed
like he really couldn't believe that it all actually EXISTED!

We had a great time! (What a COOL plane he's got! Talk about a
go-anywhere machine!)

> A notable exception in this group is Mr. Honeck here. He's as "real" in
> meatspace as he is in real life. That's a compliment, Mr. Jay.

Some people are pretty disappointed that I'm actually what I seem to be....

;-)

> On the other hand, most of you probably think I'm a studly, low-wing kinda
> guy with redneck tendencies that tall, blonde, supermodels dig. In real
> life I'm . . . Well, that's pretty accurate.

Well, you got most of that right... :-)

So are you doin' any flying, or what? Don't even tell me you're back on
the ground for another year!
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[SelwayKid]

"Dudley Henriques" > wrote in message et>...
> "SelwayKid" > wrote in message
> om...
> I don't claim to be a
> > co-author of any noteworthy publications that weigh 7 pounds and
> > relate to flight safety.
>
> Just a slight correction here, and the rest of the post is fine.

Well crap....my award winning response got dumped by my server.
Dudley, I am overwhelmed that you approve of the rest of my post. Fact
is, I could care less if you approve or not. While I admire much of
what you have done, it smacks of elitism and low tolerance for anyone
who doesn't agree with you. As for your talents and experience doing
low level manuevers, can you state how many hours you have flying at
or below 200'agl? I can show a logbook that indicates about 12,000
hours of it in ag work crop dusting. I know at least two ag pilots who
went into the airshow circuit, Wayne Handley and Sean Tucker. Wayne is
a good friend of mine and we've had ample opportunity to discuss the
similarities of aerobatics to ag work and his airshow routines.
All your discussion of what YOU thought of a particular accident may
differ radically from what I see or perceived. From that point on its
discussion or argument.
In the years I have read your posts, and the email arguments we have
had, I maintain you are dazzled by your own brilliance that is only
second to mine. I try to use my stupid mistakes to help others learn
from them while you seem to pontificate and its either your way or the
highway/runway??? <ggg>
Geeeezzz, I guess thats why I sign off as..
Ol Shy & Bashful
>
> "Zero Error Margin" is a stand alone volume completely written by Gen
> Des Barker of the SAAF. Gen Barker gathered together an international
> team of professional air show demonstration pilots who contributed their
> time and energy to the project at no charge.
> The book contains probably the world's most comprehensive data base on
> air show related accidents ranging from 1952 to the present. All major
> and even minor accidents were covered complete with full reports, and
> reviews from professional demonstration pilots who comment on how these
> accidents might have been prevented.
> Although my comments appear throughout the book on various subjects
> relating to airshow demonstration flight safety, demonstration pilot
> physical and mental conditioning, and misc other comment, my main
> contribution was a comprehensive report on low altitude vertical
> recoveries in vintage prop fighters which appears in the chapter "Flying
> the Demonstration". This report was also carried in Aeroplane Monthly
> Feb issue 2004 in a feature article by Gen Barker "Precision Decision"
> I was simply a small part of a world wide team invited to take part in
> this project.
> I was NOT the co-author of the book.
> Returning you now to your discussion.
> Dudley Henriques
> International Fighter Pilots Fellowship

[Dudley Henriques]

"SelwayKid" > wrote in message
om...

> All your discussion of what YOU thought of a particular accident may
> differ radically from what I see or perceived. From that point on its
> discussion or argument.

I'm sorry to correct you once more, but the above comment could not in
any way relate to me at all.
The entire gist of what I've been saying, (when I wasn't losing my
temper that is), about accident comment is that it's virtually useless
unless accompanied by expert investigative quality opinion from someone
intimately familiar
with a specific crash. It's for that reason I DECLINED comment, and in
fact, very rarely get involved in accident discussion about accidents
that I'm not
completely familiar with.
Actually, my thoughts on this would be somewhat compatible with yours.

About your experience comments;
It's good to have pilots as experienced as you are on Usenet.
It will be nice if you can use this experience to comment on issues
where you
have expertise. I'm sure your comment will be welcomed on Usenet as the
quality of your information is assessed over time as mine has been
assessed over time.
All the best to you,

Dudley Henriques
International Fighter Pilots Fellowship

[Jim Fisher]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message > >

> Well, you got most of that right... :-)

Ya right.

> So are you doin' any flying, or what? Don't even tell me you're back on
> the ground for another year!

Still a bottom dweller at the moment but things are ever-so-slowly looking
up. My business has survived the past three years. If I can weather that,
I oughta be able to weather anything.

So, perhaps this year. Perhaps not. Until then, I'll just keep looking up.
;)

--
Jim Fisher

[Ditch]

>Don't forget "certificate waiving" and "pompous" . . . and the longest sig
>in Usenet.

Ah...but is his sig as arrogant and offensive as mine? :)


-John
*You are nothing until you have flown a Douglas, Lockheed, Grumman or North
American*