unfolded/creaseless charts

[Dave Jacobowitz]

Though I a appreciate aeronautical charts for helping me navigate to
my destination without bumping anything, I also admit to having an
aesthetic affection for them as well -- especially sectionals.

So, I've been thinking of perhaps framing some and hanging them from
the wall, not just in the garage (err, ready room) but acually inside
the house.

Does anyone know if it is possible to obtain charts that have never
been folded and have no creases whatsoever, like shipped in a tube?

Ideas?

thanks,
-- Dave J
-- jacobowitz73 -at- yahoo -dot- com

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Dave Jacobowitz" > wrote in message
om...
>
> Though I a appreciate aeronautical charts for helping me navigate to
> my destination without bumping anything, I also admit to having an
> aesthetic affection for them as well -- especially sectionals.
>
> So, I've been thinking of perhaps framing some and hanging them from
> the wall, not just in the garage (err, ready room) but acually inside
> the house.
>
> Does anyone know if it is possible to obtain charts that have never
> been folded and have no creases whatsoever, like shipped in a tube?
>
> Ideas?
>

I don't know about availability, but they do exist. They're printed on one
side of the paper too.

[vincent p. norris]

On 14 Sep 2004 16:29:48 -0700, (Dave
Jacobowitz) wrote:

>Though I a appreciate aeronautical charts for helping me navigate to
>my destination without bumping anything, I also admit to having an
>aesthetic affection for them as well -- especially sectionals.
>
>So, I've been thinking of perhaps framing some and hanging them from
>the wall........

Might interest you to know that in the early 1950s, the walls of the
bar in the Officers' Club at Cherry Point Marine Corps Air Station
were decorated with framed aeronautical charts of the Pacific area,
where the Marines spent WW II.

Being charts of the Pacific, they naturally had a lot of blue on
them, punctuated by blobs of green and some browns in odd free-form
shapes. From ten feet away they looked very much like abstract
paintings.

I thought them very attractive.

vince norris

[Kyler Laird]

(Dave Jacobowitz) writes:

>Does anyone know if it is possible to obtain charts that have never
>been folded and have no creases whatsoever, like shipped in a tube?

>Ideas?

Get a local shop to print a fresh one for you.

--kyler

[Ross Richardson]

We had to get rid of the folds when we patched several WAC charts
together at our local airport. After we got them together, we ironed out
the creases. It seemed to work.

Ross

Dave Jacobowitz wrote:
>
> Though I a appreciate aeronautical charts for helping me navigate to
> my destination without bumping anything, I also admit to having an
> aesthetic affection for them as well -- especially sectionals.
>
> So, I've been thinking of perhaps framing some and hanging them from
> the wall, not just in the garage (err, ready room) but acually inside
> the house.
>
> Does anyone know if it is possible to obtain charts that have never
> been folded and have no creases whatsoever, like shipped in a tube?
>
> Ideas?
>
> thanks,
> -- Dave J
> -- jacobowitz73 -at- yahoo -dot- com

[Dave Jacobowitz]

I'm a little confused! Charts are printed locally? I guess I can ask
my local pilot shop where they get their charts. I assumed it was
directly from the gubmt.

I also will try ironing, as one person suggested.

thanks,
-- dave j

Kyler Laird > wrote in message >...
> (Dave Jacobowitz) writes:
>
> >Does anyone know if it is possible to obtain charts that have never
> >been folded and have no creases whatsoever, like shipped in a tube?
>
> >Ideas?
>
> Get a local shop to print a fresh one for you.
>
> --kyler

[Kyler Laird]

(Dave Jacobowitz) writes:

>> Get a local shop to print a fresh one for you.

>I'm a little confused! Charts are printed locally?

Sure, any print shop should be able to handle the sectional images.
http://weborder.kinkos.com/start.cgi

--kyler

[Malcolm Teas]

(Dave Jacobowitz) wrote in message >...
> Though I a appreciate aeronautical charts for helping me navigate to
> my destination without bumping anything, I also admit to having an
> aesthetic affection for them as well -- especially sectionals.
>
> So, I've been thinking of perhaps framing some and hanging them from
> the wall, not just in the garage (err, ready room) but acually inside
> the house.
>
> Does anyone know if it is possible to obtain charts that have never
> been folded and have no creases whatsoever, like shipped in a tube?

My local FBO got flat charts (delivered rolled) from someone at the
local FSS. You might try asking there?

-Malcolm Teas
JYO

[Peter Duniho]

"Kyler Laird" > wrote in message
...
> >> Get a local shop to print a fresh one for you.
>
> >I'm a little confused! Charts are printed locally?
>
> Sure, any print shop should be able to handle the sectional images.
> http://weborder.kinkos.com/start.cgi

I went to that link and could not find any offer to print sectional images.

Maybe you could be more specific? Where, exactly, is one supposed to get
the images for Kinkos (or any other print shop) to print? And don't say
"from a sectional chart", because the folds will come out on the
reproduction as well.

Pete

[Kyler Laird]

"Peter Duniho" > writes:

>> Sure, any print shop should be able to handle the sectional images.
>> http://weborder.kinkos.com/start.cgi

>I went to that link and could not find any offer to print sectional images.

It says that they handle standard formats. I'd expect you to realize that
TIFF is fairly standard.

>Maybe you could be more specific? Where, exactly, is one supposed to get
>the images for Kinkos (or any other print shop) to print?

It's difficult for me to believe that you've never seen the FAA sectional
images nor were you able to find them, but...
http://aviationtoolbox.org/raw_data/FAA/sectionals/current/

--kyler

[Peter Duniho]

"Kyler Laird" > wrote in message
...
> http://aviationtoolbox.org/raw_data/FAA/sectionals/current/

Wow...it only took three tries to get *actual* useful information out of
you. A Usenet record!

My point, since you still don't seem to get it, is that replies like "get a
local shop to print a fresh one for you", and posting a link to Kinko's web
site are not useful at all to anyone who actually is requesting the
information being requested.

If the question had been "I've got a TIFF file of a sectional, and I want it
printed on a big piece of paper", then what you wrote would have been
perfectly appropriate. But that's not the question that was asked.

If you really are serious about helping, try being a little more helpful
next time.

Pete

[[email protected]]

On Fri, 17 Sep 2004 15:27:13 -0700, "Peter Duniho"
> wrote:

http://groups.google.com/groups?q=g:thl3290711305d&dq=&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&selm=ibd881-34i.ln1%40jowls.lairds.org

&btnG=Search

Any questions now?

My guess is Mr. Laird has spent more time being "serious about
helping" than you've spent "whining like a bitch" on Usenet.

"My point, since you still don't seem to get it, is that" your
personal signal-to-noise ratio isn't anything to brag about.

TC


>"Kyler Laird" > wrote in message
...
>> http://aviationtoolbox.org/raw_data/FAA/sectionals/current/
>
>Wow...it only took three tries to get *actual* useful information out of
>you. A Usenet record!
>
>My point, since you still don't seem to get it, is that replies like "get a
>local shop to print a fresh one for you", and posting a link to Kinko's web
>site are not useful at all to anyone who actually is requesting the
>information being requested.
>
>If the question had been "I've got a TIFF file of a sectional, and I want it
>printed on a big piece of paper", then what you wrote would have been
>perfectly appropriate. But that's not the question that was asked.
>
>If you really are serious about helping, try being a little more helpful
>next time.
>
>Pete
>

[Peter Duniho]

> wrote in message
...
> My guess is Mr. Laird has spent more time being "serious about
> helping" than you've spent "whining like a bitch" on Usenet.

Still sore, Mr. I Post Behind A Fake Name?

Give it a rest. You'll be able to sit down, eventually.

[zatatime]

On Fri, 17 Sep 2004 21:11:04 GMT, Kyler Laird
> wrote:

>It's difficult for me to believe that you've never seen the FAA sectional
>images nor were you able to find them, but...
> http://aviationtoolbox.org/raw_data/FAA/sectionals/current/


Thanks for the link! I never knew you could get these files off the
web!

z

[[email protected]]

On Fri, 17 Sep 2004 17:17:36 -0700, "Peter Duniho"
> wrote:

> wrote in message
...
>> My guess is Mr. Laird has spent more time being "serious about
>> helping" than you've spent "whining like a bitch" on Usenet.
>
>Still sore, Mr. I Post Behind A Fake Name?
>
>Give it a rest. You'll be able to sit down, eventually.
>

Snappy comeback.

Totally avoids the fact that you screwed the pooch by slamming Mr.
Laird, plus a precious wittle baby flame for me.

BTW don't worry about my posterior, I've developed hard calluses from
years of dealing with dicks just like you.

TC

[Ben Jackson]

In article >,
> wrote:
>
>BTW don't worry about my posterior, I've developed hard calluses from
>years of dealing with dicks just like you.

Heh, ehm, uh, do you want to rephrase that??

--
Ben Jackson
>
http://www.ben.com/

[Chris W]

Kyler Laird wrote:

> http://aviationtoolbox.org/raw_data/FAA/sectionals/current/

Has anyone ever tried to trim the borders and cut and past all of these
together into one gigantic map? I have access to a 44" wide inkjet
printer, I wonder how it would look with the lower 48 states printed out
44" tall by however long that would be. If someone does a good job
putting all the maps together I might be persuaded to make that ONE
person ONE printout too.

--
Chris W

Bring Back the HP 15C
http://hp15c.org

Not getting the gifts you want? The Wish Zone can help.
http://thewishzone.com

[Tom S.]

"Chris W" > wrote in message
news:9GQ2d.57765$mu.20977@okepread07...
> Kyler Laird wrote:
>
> > http://aviationtoolbox.org/raw_data/FAA/sectionals/current/
>
> Has anyone ever tried to trim the borders and cut and past all of these
> together into one gigantic map? I have access to a 44" wide inkjet
> printer, I wonder how it would look with the lower 48 states printed out
> 44" tall by however long that would be. If someone does a good job
> putting all the maps together I might be persuaded to make that ONE
> person ONE printout too.
>
A better proposition would be to get a high-density digital version and
print it at the "size to page" setting.

[jay somerset]

On Sat, 18 Sep 2004 03:56:59 -0700, "Tom S." > wrote:

>
>"Chris W" > wrote in message
>news:9GQ2d.57765$mu.20977@okepread07...
>> Kyler Laird wrote:
>>
>> > http://aviationtoolbox.org/raw_data/FAA/sectionals/current/
>>
>> Has anyone ever tried to trim the borders and cut and past all of these
>> together into one gigantic map? I have access to a 44" wide inkjet
>> printer, I wonder how it would look with the lower 48 states printed out
>> 44" tall by however long that would be. If someone does a good job
>> putting all the maps together I might be persuaded to make that ONE
>> person ONE printout too.
>>
>A better proposition would be to get a high-density digital version and
>print it at the "size to page" setting.
>

They won't fit together at the borders perfectly, as each is an
independent Lambert conformation, which distorts them to provide the
best two-dimensional map.

[Jon Woellhaf]

Jay Somerset wrote, "[Sectionals] won't fit together at the borders
perfectly, as each is an
independent Lambert conformation, which distorts them to provide the best
two-dimensional map"

At Oshkosh a couple years ago, I asked one of the moving map guys how they
handled the edge of map problem. He said they digitally reverse the Lambert
projection to create a virtual ellipsoidal image (or maybe spherical is good
enough -- I'm not certain if he was that specific) then create a Lambert
projection suitable to the new location.

Jon

[Dave Jacobowitz]

Okay, I don't want to be the cause of any bad mojo on this group, but
I appreciate the links. I actually did not know that high res .tiff
files were available for the charts.

It's too bad they're not available in some vector format, because
making a seriously huge printout would be rad!

thanks,
-- dave j

Kyler Laird > wrote in message >...
> "Peter Duniho" > writes:
>
> >> Sure, any print shop should be able to handle the sectional images.
> >> http://weborder.kinkos.com/start.cgi
>
> >I went to that link and could not find any offer to print sectional images.
>
> It says that they handle standard formats. I'd expect you to realize that
> TIFF is fairly standard.
>
> >Maybe you could be more specific? Where, exactly, is one supposed to get
> >the images for Kinkos (or any other print shop) to print?
>
> It's difficult for me to believe that you've never seen the FAA sectional
> images nor were you able to find them, but...
> http://aviationtoolbox.org/raw_data/FAA/sectionals/current/
>
> --kyler

[Dave Jacobowitz]

Kyler, thanks for the links. These files are exactly what the doctor
ordered. I know you've worked on squishing sectional edges together
intelligently. Does getting the North/South charts to print on the
same side of the same page require this mathe magic, or can it be
arranged just by lining them up carefully in photoshop before sending
to a print house?

-- dave j


Kyler Laird > wrote in message >...
> "Peter Duniho" > writes:
>
> >> Sure, any print shop should be able to handle the sectional images.
> >> http://weborder.kinkos.com/start.cgi
>
> >I went to that link and could not find any offer to print sectional images.
>
> It says that they handle standard formats. I'd expect you to realize that
> TIFF is fairly standard.
>
> >Maybe you could be more specific? Where, exactly, is one supposed to get
> >the images for Kinkos (or any other print shop) to print?
>
> It's difficult for me to believe that you've never seen the FAA sectional
> images nor were you able to find them, but...
> http://aviationtoolbox.org/raw_data/FAA/sectionals/current/
>
> --kyler

[Kyler Laird]

jay somerset > writes:

>>A better proposition would be to get a high-density digital version and
>>print it at the "size to page" setting.

>They won't fit together at the borders perfectly, as each is an
>independent Lambert conformation, which distorts them to provide the
>best two-dimensional map.

Fitting them together isn't a problem. (O.k., it *is* a problem, but it's
one that's solved in a straightforward way.) They're georeferenced.
https://aviationtoolbox.org/Members/kyler/tools/map_explorer
The problem is that things are in different places on different sectionals
so they don't line up well.
https://aviationtoolbox.org/Members/kyler/tools/map_explorer?image=1100793%2C399365%2C25&scale=50&selected.x=369&selected.y=314

--kyler

[[email protected]]

On Sat, 18 Sep 2004 03:27:17 GMT, (Ben Jackson) wrote:

>In article >,
> > wrote:
>>
>>BTW don't worry about my posterior, I've developed hard calluses from
>>years of dealing with dicks just like you.
>
>Heh, ehm, uh, do you want to rephrase that??

Sure. If you've spent much time in any service industry dealing with
relatively well-to-do customers, you realize that a certain percentage
of these customers will not be satisfied unless their egos are
sufficiently stroked.

In order to be successful, the customer IS always right-even if he/she
is a brainless twit that is unable to comprehend that you are
providing superior service at a competitive price.

TC

[Chris W]

Dave Jacobowitz wrote:

> It's too bad they're not available in some vector format, because
> making a seriously huge printout would be rad!


I'm not sure what you mean by seriously huge but did you see the size of
the tiff files? If you were to print them at 150 DPI you would have a
27 x 80" map. For a map like this even 72 DPI would look good and that
would be over twice the size. That seems pretty huge to me.

--
Chris W

Bring Back the HP 15C
http://hp15c.org

Not getting the gifts you want? The Wish Zone can help.
http://thewishzone.com

[Chris W]

Dave Jacobowitz wrote:

> Kyler, thanks for the links. These files are exactly what the doctor
> ordered. I know you've worked on squishing sectional edges together
> intelligently. Does getting the North/South charts to print on the
> same side of the same page require this mathe magic, or can it be
> arranged just by lining them up carefully in photoshop before sending
> to a print house?

I did some playing with the dfw sectional and after stretching the south
image about 15 pixels wider I did the cut and past and a little tweaking
of the text in the overlap area and came up with this

http://cdw.homelinux.com:8087/Dallas-FtWorth72.jpg

keep in mind that this jpg is 9MB and my upstream speed isn't all that
good so it will take some time to download it. The image is about
11,000 by 8,000 pixels

--
Chris W

Bring Back the HP 15C
http://hp15c.org

Not getting the gifts you want? The Wish Zone can help.
http://thewishzone.com

[Kyler Laird]

(Dave Jacobowitz) writes:

>Does getting the North/South charts to print on the
>same side of the same page require this mathe magic, or can it be
>arranged just by lining them up carefully in photoshop before sending
>to a print house?

I haven't done it lately but as I recall it can work that easily.
You'll still have a discernible seam though.
https://aviationtoolbox.org/Members/kyler/tools/map_explorer?image=1018928%2C557556%2C100&scale=100&selected.x=407&selected.y=302

--kyler

[Kyler Laird]

Chris W > writes:

>I did some playing with the dfw sectional and after stretching the south
>image about 15 pixels wider I did the cut and past and a little tweaking
>of the text in the overlap area and came up with this

Oh! I almost forgot...I made these for my moving map experiment awhile
ago.
http://aviationtoolbox.org/munge/data/square_chunked/
JPEG versions are here.
http://aviationtoolbox.org/munge/data/square_chunked/1350_PPD/
(There are 1350 pixels per degree).

Just pick the square by the longitude and latitude of the upper left
hand corner. They should fit together easily.

They're not, however, Lambert Conformal Conic anymore. Don't try to
plot a route on them.

--kyler

[Ben Jackson]

In article >,
Kyler Laird > wrote:
>They're not, however, Lambert Conformal Conic anymore. Don't try to
>plot a route on them.

What are they? They seem squished vertically. Is that the projection
or some non-square pixel thing?

--
Ben Jackson
>
http://www.ben.com/

[Kyler Laird]

(Ben Jackson) writes:

>>They're not, however, Lambert Conformal Conic anymore. Don't try to
>>plot a route on them.

>What are they?

I'd call it "unprojected latitude and longitude."
http://www.colorado.edu/geography/gcraft/notes/mapproj/gif/threepro.gif

>They seem squished vertically. Is that the projection
>or some non-square pixel thing?

On the sectionals the pixels represent (approximately) 63 x 63 meters.
In these images they represent 1/1350 x 1/1350 degrees.
http://www.colorado.edu/geography/gcraft/notes/mapproj/gif/nalccna.gif
This reprojection is certainly going to provide a distorted image. The
distortion seems to be less at lower latitudes.
http://aviationtoolbox.org/munge/data/square_chunked/1350_PPD/chunk_-100_25.jpg

I'll leave it to someone else to explain exactly how meters per degree
of latitude changes in a conic.
http://www.colorado.edu/geography/gcraft/notes/mapproj/gif/nalccna.gif

Of course if you're just making a pretty map of some area using basic
image manipulation software, you can simply un-squish it to your taste.

--kyler

[Dave Jacobowitz]

As a side project to get a nice chart on the wall, I've been poking
around for nicely preserved historical air charts. It's slim pickins
out there as far as I can tell.

However, I found this website on NOAA:

http://chartmaker.ncd.noaa.gov/csdl/ctp/abstract.htm

It contains absurdly high resolution scans of all kinds of old maps,
including aviation. The files are are in a very efficient but uncommon
proprietary format called .sid. You can view them at the website using
the viewer they have, or download a program (for free) from
http://www.lizardtech.com to uncompress and convert the files to
whatever you like, .jpg, .tiff, etc.

Anyway, if you want a *print* of an old map, this is a great resource.

-- dave j
-- jacobowitz73 -at- yahoo -dot- com