Aviation Videos, again... [Archive]

Jay Honeck

September 25th 04, 05:42 AM

> On your page, you say: "Our desire is that viewing the crash videos should
> be an educational experience, with the goal of preventing similar
accidents
> in the future." As a CFI, please tell me how I can learn from, and pass
on
> lessons to my students regarding each of the videos on your website.

I tend to agree that there is very little there of value to a primary
student, but I'm trying to respond to the likes of Dudley H., who lambasted
me for presenting the videos as mere prurient entertainment.

Personally, I find the videos fascinating, and would watch them for that
reason alone -- but I'm trying to figure out a way to present them in a more
educational way that won't offend Dudley and his ilk. I think there's a
happy medium there somewhere, but it's going to take a lot more work to make
the page truly "educational."

Unfortunately, there are very few qualified people around who are able to
comment intelligently on aviation accidents -- and finding them is not
always easy. I've been lucky enough, for example, to find two expert
sources of commentary on the B-52 crash at Fairchild AFB, but that's been
the exception and not the rule. I would very much like to find more
examples of this kind in connection with the other videos -- but I'm not
sure where to start.

> Otherwise, I tend to view the aviation page as a marketing front for you
> business. Now, don't get me wrong, I don't see anything wrong putting a
> video resource on your website, it's just the false pretence of
'education'
> that just doesn't seem right/true.

For the moment, the pretence may be false because the educational content is
pretty thin. My point in posting, however, is that I would like to change
that!

As for the page being a "marketing tool," well, it's buried four layers down
from the main menus, and most of our guests find us on the internet by
typing "Iowa City Hotel" into Google -- not "aviation videos." As such,
that makes it a pretty ****-poor marketing tool..

Quite honestly, the video page is there because I want it to exist, plain
and simple. There are many better ways to market a hotel, and we do those,
too!
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

Shiver Me Timbers

September 25th 04, 06:46 AM

> Jay Honeck > wrote:

> but I'm not sure where to start.

Well why don't you start by contacting the wives, spouses, and other
family members of everyone who died in those accidents, and explain to
them that you are an INNKEEPER in IOWA who uses newsgroups to promote
yourself and your business and that recently you have discovered that
you can bring more people to your website by showing gruesome videos of
airplane accidents where people are killed in a violent manner.

Ask them if they have any insights into the accident that killed their
loved ones that they might be willing to share on YOUR website.

Perhaps they have additional previously unseen video they would like
to give you so that you can post it on your MOTEL'S website.

Tell you what Jay...... You post one e-mail from the widow of the
co-pilot of that B-52 where she supports your motives for posting
that bit of gruesome footage on the website of a motel, and where she
clearly thanks you for your efforts in bringing that footage to the
attention of recreational pilots like the type that frequent this
group, and where she clearly agrees that pilots in this group will
learn lots as they compare the idiocy of an arrogant pilot doing a
knife edge routine at low level in a MILITARY BOMBER and how that might
somehow be relevant and actually help pilots like yourself who fly a
PIPER or CESSNA aircraft.

Hey Jay..... When's the last time you did a low level knife edge in
your Piper with Mary and the kids on board, and what did you learn
from it.

SHOW ME THAT E-MAIL MR. HONECK AND I WILL NEVER BOTHER YOU AGAIN.

> Quite honestly, the video page is there because I want it to exist, plain
> and simple.

That is obvious, and personally I just don't understand how decent
pilots with families who frequent this newsgroup as many do, actually
back slap you and congratulate you for your efforts to show that type
of video on your motel's website.

> There are many better ways to market a hotel,
> and we do those, too!

Well you certainly couldn't prove that to anyone by your actions in
this newsgroup.

Jim Fisher

September 25th 04, 01:14 PM

"Hilton" > wrote in message
ink.net...
> Jay,
>
> On your page, you say: "Our desire is that viewing the crash videos should
> be an educational experience, with the goal of preventing similar
> accidents
> in the future." As a CFI, please tell me how I can learn from, and pass
> on
> lessons to my students regarding each of the videos on your website.

They may not "learn" a damn thing. But they will be reminded how a instant
of inattention or carelessness can have rather exciting consequences. To
say a student could never learn anything from watching crash videos is
Really Silly.

The likes of you and Dudley would rather see these videos locked up in a
vault somewhere never to be seen again?

Man, If I ever go down while someone is videoing me - and if Jay doesn't
post my demise on his site - I will come back as a Gremlin in your engine.
Promise.

I view every "crash video" I have ever seen vicariously and wonder what I'd
do to alter the outcome.

Do most people view it this way? Probably not as most people ain't pilots.
I'd like to think most pilots view these videos in a slightly different
light.

There's a video of a B1 bomber flying very low and turning sharply when it
simply drops out of the sky. I think of this incident often when I'm in the
pattern making my base-to-final.

. . . Then again, some of them are just cool to watch.

--
Jim Fisher

Jim Fisher

September 25th 04, 01:19 PM

"Shiver Me Timbers" > wrote in message
...
>> Jay Honeck > wrote:
>
>> but I'm not sure where to start.
>
> Well why don't you start by contacting the wives, spouses, and other
> family members of everyone who died in those accidents,

That's stupid.

Just thought you should know that.

--
Jim Fisher

Dudley Henriques

September 25th 04, 02:56 PM

"Jim Fisher" > wrote in message
...
> "Shiver Me Timbers" > wrote in message
> ...
>>> Jay Honeck > wrote:
>>
>>> but I'm not sure where to start.
>>
>> Well why don't you start by contacting the wives, spouses, and other
>> family members of everyone who died in those accidents,
>
> That's stupid.
>
> Just thought you should know that.
>
> --
> Jim Fisher

I realize I'm talking here to someone who for some reason thinks my
signature file is tacked on my posts to impress people, but I'll try
this anyway.

Actually, it's not stupid at all, and I can tell you that at least one
widow has already done exactly that.
What's stupid is trying to pass off showing crash video of a B52 going
in out of knife edge or an F16 crashing coming out of a Reverse Half
Cuban; both crashes in an air show environment, and passing this off as
a safety lesson for general aviation pilots accessable on a personal
business related main page from a link called "COOL STUFF".
As for your comment about being reminded about a bomber crash while
flying the pattern; I realize that there is little I can teach some of
you folks on "piloting" about flight safety, but I would suggest to you
that you simply pay less attention to the bomber crash while you're in
the pattern, and a little more attention to your flying and you won't
need all this "vital safety information" you got by viewing the bomber
crash.
As for Honek; I appreciate his efforts to clean up his page on crash
videos. He did remove the word "enjoy", which I personally appreciated
since it was one of my friends dying in one of those videos.
Contrary to what you have stated about me repeatedly, I have no
objection at all to crash video being viewed in the right context. That
context is simply totally safety related and presented to a pilot
audience in a format that doesn't have an opening link that says "COOL
STUFF".

Dudley Henriques
International Fighter Pilots Fellowship
Flight Instructor/Aerobatics/Retired

Hilton

September 25th 04, 03:40 PM

Jim Fisher wrote:
> Hilton wrote:
> > Jay,
> >
> > On your page, you say: "Our desire is that viewing the crash videos
should
> > be an educational experience, with the goal of preventing similar
> > accidents
> > in the future." As a CFI, please tell me how I can learn from, and pass
> > on
> > lessons to my students regarding each of the videos on your website.
>
> They may not "learn" a damn thing. But they will be reminded how a
instant
> of inattention or carelessness can have rather exciting consequences. To
> say a student could never learn anything from watching crash videos is
> Really Silly.
>
> The likes of you and Dudley would rather see these videos locked up in a
> vault somewhere never to be seen again?

Since you conveniently deleted the rest of my post, for completeness, here
it is: "Now, don't get me wrong, I don't see anything wrong putting a video
resource on your website, it's just the false pretence of 'education' that
just doesn't seem right/true."

So before you rant and rave and put words in my mouth, make sure you get
your facts right.

> . . . Then again, some of them are just cool to watch.

While I don't speak for others on this NG, I can categorically state that I
certainly would not find it "cool" to watch my friend dying, or anyone else
for that matter.

Hilton

Martin Hotze

September 25th 04, 03:46 PM

On Sat, 25 Sep 2004 04:42:45 GMT, Jay Honeck wrote:

>Quite honestly, the video page is there because I want it to exist, plain
>and simple. There are many better ways to market a hotel, and we do those,
>too!

yes, right here.

get another domain and host your aviation stuff without too much linking to
the hotel there. I guess then it would be much more appreciated by the
community.

#m

--
Somehow, some way, the Left trash talks "multi-national corporations" and
"big corporations" as if they were messengers of evil, when, in fact,
corporations represent the ultimate, perfect expression of communal
ownership of capital. (Jay Honeck in r.a.p.)

Jon Woellhaf

September 25th 04, 06:01 PM

Since you asked, I suggest you remove all aviation videos where someone is
injured or killed.

Jon

Michael 182

September 25th 04, 06:37 PM

"Martin Hotze" > wrote in message
...
> On Sat, 25 Sep 2004 04:42:45 GMT, Jay Honeck wrote:
>
>>Quite honestly, the video page is there because I want it to exist, plain
>>and simple. There are many better ways to market a hotel, and we do
>>those,
>>too!
>
> yes, right here.
>
> get another domain and host your aviation stuff without too much linking
> to
> the hotel there. I guess then it would be much more appreciated by the
> community.

Come on Martin, you are far from a usenet purist yourself, since you often
expouse your off topic views in this forum. So what if Jay is promoting his
business a little along with the aviation stuff? It's not like he is
promoting a porn site through an aviation newsgroup - the stuff is
relatively on target for the audience.

>
> #m
>
> --
> Somehow, some way, the Left trash talks "multi-national corporations" and
> "big corporations" as if they were messengers of evil, when, in fact,
> corporations represent the ultimate, perfect expression of communal
> ownership of capital. (Jay Honeck in r.a.p.)

And, as long as we are talking off-topic...

I am a card carrying member of the left, and a confirmed capitalist who has
greatly benefited from building and selling companies. There is no
anti-corporate bias to left politics. On the other hand, to believe that
"corporations represent the ultimate, perfect expression of communal
ownership of capital." is somewhat akin to believing in the tooth fairy.
Corporations can represent and be community assets within the confines of
responsible capitalism, or they can be money grubbing thoughtless polluters
and exploiters - it depends on management, not on the corporate entity or
the nature of capitalism.

Martin Hotze

September 25th 04, 07:53 PM

On Sat, 25 Sep 2004 17:37:07 GMT, Michael 182 wrote:

>>>Quite honestly, the video page is there because I want it to exist, plain
>>>and simple. There are many better ways to market a hotel, and we do
>>>those,
>>>too!
>>
>> yes, right here.
>>
>> get another domain and host your aviation stuff without too much linking
>> to
>> the hotel there. I guess then it would be much more appreciated by the
>> community.
>
>Come on Martin, you are far from a usenet purist yourself, since you often
>expouse your off topic views in this forum.

agreed (on the off topic postings; but I must say that this only happens
here)

>So what if Jay is promoting his
>business a little along with the aviation stuff? It's not like he is
>promoting a porn site through an aviation newsgroup - the stuff is
>relatively on target for the audience.

there are many others here that have aviation related businesses, but they
don't promote their stuff in such a way like Jay does. besides: the domain
will cost him about $10 to $20/year.

>> --
^^^^^^^
you know what this is? this is a signature seperator. a 4 line signature is
widely accepted on usenet and can contain whatever offtopic you want.

>> Somehow, some way, the Left trash talks "multi-national corporations" and
>> "big corporations" as if they were messengers of evil, when, in fact,
>> corporations represent the ultimate, perfect expression of communal
>> ownership of capital. (Jay Honeck in r.a.p.)
>
>And, as long as we are talking off-topic...
>
>I am a card carrying member of the left, and a confirmed capitalist who has
>greatly benefited from building and selling companies. There is no
>anti-corporate bias to left politics. On the other hand, to believe that
>"corporations represent the ultimate, perfect expression of communal
>ownership of capital." is somewhat akin to believing in the tooth fairy.

I .sig'ed this sentence (it is from Jay) because it is funny. at least for
me. :-)

#m

--
Somehow, some way, the Left trash talks "multi-national corporations" and
"big corporations" as if they were messengers of evil, when, in fact,
corporations represent the ultimate, perfect expression of communal
ownership of capital. (Jay Honeck in r.a.p.)

Michael 182

September 25th 04, 08:31 PM

"Martin Hotze" > wrote in message
...
> On Sat, 25 Sep 2004 17:37:07 GMT, Michael 182 wrote:
>
>>>>Quite honestly, the video page is there because I want it to exist,
>>>>plain
>>>>and simple. There are many better ways to market a hotel, and we do
>>>>those,
>>>>too!
>>>
>>> yes, right here.
>>>
>>> get another domain and host your aviation stuff without too much linking
>>> to
>>> the hotel there. I guess then it would be much more appreciated by the
>>> community.
>>
>>Come on Martin, you are far from a usenet purist yourself, since you often
>>expouse your off topic views in this forum.
>
> agreed (on the off topic postings; but I must say that this only happens
> here)
>
>>So what if Jay is promoting his
>>business a little along with the aviation stuff? It's not like he is
>>promoting a porn site through an aviation newsgroup - the stuff is
>>relatively on target for the audience.
>
> there are many others here that have aviation related businesses, but they
> don't promote their stuff in such a way like Jay does. besides: the domain
> will cost him about $10 to $20/year.
>
>>> --
> ^^^^^^^
> you know what this is? this is a signature seperator. a 4 line signature
> is
> widely accepted on usenet and can contain whatever offtopic you want.

Never knew that, thx

>
>>> Somehow, some way, the Left trash talks "multi-national corporations"
>>> and
>>> "big corporations" as if they were messengers of evil, when, in fact,
>>> corporations represent the ultimate, perfect expression of communal
>>> ownership of capital. (Jay Honeck in r.a.p.)
>>
>>And, as long as we are talking off-topic...
>>
>>I am a card carrying member of the left, and a confirmed capitalist who
>>has
>>greatly benefited from building and selling companies. There is no
>>anti-corporate bias to left politics. On the other hand, to believe that
>>"corporations represent the ultimate, perfect expression of communal
>>ownership of capital." is somewhat akin to believing in the tooth fairy.
>
> I .sig'ed this sentence (it is from Jay) because it is funny. at least for
> me. :-)

yeah, I knew that - was just responding to Jay, third hand, I guess...

>
> #m
>
> --
> Somehow, some way, the Left trash talks "multi-national corporations" and
> "big corporations" as if they were messengers of evil, when, in fact,
> corporations represent the ultimate, perfect expression of communal
> ownership of capital. (Jay Honeck in r.a.p.)

Jay Honeck

September 25th 04, 09:07 PM

> As for Honek; I appreciate his efforts to clean up his page on crash
> videos. He did remove the word "enjoy", which I personally appreciated
> since it was one of my friends dying in one of those videos.
> Contrary to what you have stated about me repeatedly, I have no
> objection at all to crash video being viewed in the right context. That
> context is simply totally safety related and presented to a pilot
> audience in a format that doesn't have an opening link that says "COOL
> STUFF".

One thing to note: Our aviation video page does NOT link directly
to/from the "Cool Stuff" menu. Rather, it links directly to a menu
choice called, not surprisingly, "Aviation Videos."

This page, in turn, links back to the main homepage menu item of "Cool
Stuff" -- which is a catch-all menu choice, to a page with lots of
things on it, including:

- The Rec.Avation "Rogue's Gallery"
- Recent Events at the Inn
- A web-cam view of Iowa City
- Pictures of our aviation-themed stained glass windows
- A history of the Inn
- A list of fly-in aviation museums
- The aviation video page.

(See it for yourself here" www.alexisparkinn.com/cool_stuff.htm )

So it's not like you click on "Cool Stuff" and go directly to aviation
carnage, as you frequently seem to imply.

I suppose I could change the main menu item name to something else,
but, quite frankly, I can't think of another "catch-all" 2-word phrase
that sums up everything on that menu page so succinctly as "Cool
Stuff".
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

john smith

September 26th 04, 12:14 AM

Here is another spin on this subject...
I wish there was a video of a friend of mine crashing and burning to death.
What he did was stupid.
I would show that video to any pilot that ever thought about doing low
level aerobatics, and I would tell them how stupid it is and why.
My friend was an Advanced category competition aerobatic pilot. He knew
better, but he did it anyway.
He was showing off for people who were not going to be impressed with
what he attempted to do.
He did it because of ego.
That's what killed him.

Hilton wrote:
> Since you conveniently deleted the rest of my post, for completeness, here
> it is: "Now, don't get me wrong, I don't see anything wrong putting a video
> resource on your website, it's just the false pretence of 'education' that
> just doesn't seem right/true."

Shiver Me Timbers

September 26th 04, 12:54 AM

> john smith > wrote:

> Here is another spin on this subject...
> I wish there was a video of a friend of mine crashing and burning to death.
> What he did was stupid.
> I would show that video to any pilot that ever thought about doing low
> level aerobatics, and I would tell them how stupid it is and why.

Hey John..... What does his widow and children think of that idea.

And if it was you who had crashed and burned what do you think
your wife and children would think of someone just like you
( or Jay ) showing that video over and over and over and over.

Perhaps on a commercial website for a motel..... just like Jays.

If someone caught your daughter on tape doing something really stupid
like running out onto the street without looking, and the tape clearly
showed your daughter being hit and thrown fifty feet to her death, are
you telling the group here that you would like to see that tape being
shown over and over again on the web or reality TV shows and on
websites like Jay Honecks - Which by the way is a website for a motel.

And if the answer is truly yes then would you mind having your wife
append a few comments of her own before you hit the post button.

I for one would be very interesting in reading your wifes comments
on that subject.

Jay Honeck

September 26th 04, 02:00 AM

> Perhaps on a commercial website for a motel..... just like Jays.

Just to clear up this point: Calling it a "commercial website" implies that
we make money when the videos are viewed.

We do not.

And, before you even think it, I have yet to meet a guest who has listed our
"aviation video page" as the "place they first heard about the inn..."

That's not what this page is all about, and I certainly don't expect people
to visit the inn because of it.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

john smith

September 26th 04, 02:06 AM

Stay on topic, Shiver.
The subject is relevance.
Is there something that can be learned from viewing an aviation accident
video? I have been involved with competition aerobatics for over 20
years. On average, I lose two or three friends/acqaintances each year
due to mishaps/accidents. I'm neither happy nor proud of that fact. To
those unfamiliar with the sport, it looks dangerous.
Almost all of these mishaps/accidents were preventable.
In the case of my friend's crash, another friend was killed in an acro
crash less than a year later. This individual was very upset at the
funeral for our friend. His crash, too, was preventable and the result
of doing something stupid, that he knew better than to do, but he did it
anyway. Both crashes, I won't call them accidents, were the result of
insufficient altitude for the maneuver attempted.
Secondly, there are many webhosts who provide space to offer content
unrelated to the primary purpose of the website. They provide a service.
When I view the aviation content on Jay's website, I don't care that the
purpose of the homepage is commercial operation. I'm there for the
aviation stuff.

Shiver Me Timbers wrote:
>>john smith > wrote:
>>Here is another spin on this subject...
>>I wish there was a video of a friend of mine crashing and burning to death.
>>What he did was stupid.
>>I would show that video to any pilot that ever thought about doing low
>>level aerobatics, and I would tell them how stupid it is and why.
>
>
> Hey John..... What does his widow and children think of that idea.
> And if it was you who had crashed and burned what do you think
> your wife and children would think of someone just like you
> ( or Jay ) showing that video over and over and over and over.
> Perhaps on a commercial website for a motel..... just like Jays.
> If someone caught your daughter on tape doing something really stupid
> like running out onto the street without looking, and the tape clearly
> showed your daughter being hit and thrown fifty feet to her death, are
> you telling the group here that you would like to see that tape being
> shown over and over again on the web or reality TV shows and on
> websites like Jay Honecks - Which by the way is a website for a motel.
> And if the answer is truly yes then would you mind having your wife
> append a few comments of her own before you hit the post button.
> I for one would be very interesting in reading your wifes comments
> on that subject.

Jay Honeck

September 26th 04, 02:14 AM

> Since you asked, I suggest you remove all aviation videos where someone is
> injured or killed.

Thanks for the suggestion.

I've given this some serious thought, ever since Dudley and others took such
great offense. Although I understand the nature of your statement , I
simply don't agree that removing bad accident videos from the site is a good
idea. Here's why:

All of the videos -- save one -- are totally anonymous. There are no names
listed, and -- in many cases -- not even a location given. Thus, no
families can be embarrassed or cast in a bad light.

Ironically, the only one this isn't true of is the B-52 fatal crash video,
which contains links to extensive safety-related commentary in which the
pilot is named -- and blamed -- over and over again.

It's the B-52 crash that probably has the most to teach us all, with its sad
story of ego, over-confidence, and the defying of common sense (not to
mention basic aerodynamics) and logic. And while it's true that most of us
won't ever fly an 8-engine jet bomber, we can all learn from the strange mix
of attitude and circumstances that caused the deaths of several good men.

In short, if I truly want this page to be more than just a place to watch
planes crash, the bad wrecks mustn't be eliminated.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

Shiver Me Timbers

September 26th 04, 02:46 AM

> Jay Honeck > wrote:

> Just to clear up this point: Calling it a "commercial website" implies that
> we make money when the videos are viewed.
>
> We do not.
>
> And, before you even think it, I have yet to meet a guest who has listed our
> "aviation video page" as the "place they first heard about the inn..."
>
> That's not what this page is all about, and I certainly don't expect people
> to visit the inn because of it.

Well why don't you humour me and contact the widows of the pilot,
co-pilot, and all the passengers and ask them what they think of your
attitude and actions.

Isn't that fair.

After all Jay - If you were personally contacted by one of those widows
and they asked you to remove those videos.... what would you do.

Newps

September 26th 04, 02:52 AM

Michael 182 wrote:

>
> Come on Martin, you are far from a usenet purist yourself, since you often
> expouse your off topic views in this forum.

Martin hasn't posted two on topic posts in the last year.

Shiver Me Timbers

September 26th 04, 03:07 AM

> john smith > wrote:

> Stay on topic, Shiver.
> The subject is relevance.

> Is there something that can be learned from viewing an aviation accident
> video?

Perhaps there is John. But is a website for a motel the ideal spot to
learn that lesson.

Is there something that could be learned from viewing a video of your
own daughter being killed in a traffic accident.

Perhaps there is John. But would your wife and your other children like
to see a video clip being shown on Real TV, or a website for a motel.

You say the subject is relevance and I agree, so that's why I would
like to know what your wife thinks.

john smith

September 26th 04, 04:42 AM

I am not a believer in the "halo effect".
Saying only good things about the dead doesn't change the fact that they
are responsible their death. Not talking about the facts doesn't bring
back the dead.
This "feel good", "politicly correct", "don't speak the truth" society
is getting too many people killed.
I don't really care what the relatives think.
If someone does something stupid and gets themselves or others killed,
there is a greater good lesson to be learned to save others.
Why do you want to ignore that fact?

Shiver Me Timbers wrote:
> Perhaps there is John. But is a website for a motel the ideal spot to
> learn that lesson.

So, you go a Bush/Kerry website to learn the facts about a candidate or
what the political party wants you to know? There are many websites out
there with content that has nothing to do with anything. Jay has an
aviation themed hotel, so his website has aviation content.

> Is there something that could be learned from viewing a video of your
> own daughter being killed in a traffic accident.

It doesn't make a difference. If there is a lesson to be learned and it
is teachable, use it. If other lives can be saved, yes.

> Perhaps there is John. But would your wife and your other children like
> to see a video clip being shown on Real TV, or a website for a motel.
> You say the subject is relevance and I agree, so that's why I would
> like to know what your wife thinks.

It doesn't make any difference. If I did something stupid and there was
a video of it, it's my fault for putting myself in the situation to
begin with. If someone having viewed the video were to confront a family
member about the contents of the video, my personal feeling is that it
would more negatively reflect on the character of that individual.

Dudley Henriques

September 26th 04, 05:15 AM

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
om...

> One thing to note: Our aviation video page does NOT link directly
> to/from the "Cool Stuff" menu. Rather, it links directly to a menu
> choice called, not surprisingly, "Aviation Videos."

No, there is, as you say, an intermediate link that is reached directly
from the "cool stuff" link called "aviation videos". Clicking on that,
you go to the crash videos. It's a direct path however, no matter how
you parse it. If you want to reach crash video, you have to go first
through "cool stuff".
Is it so hard for you to realize how absolutely innapropriate this term
is when it leads to aviation carnage?
I've already told you I'm not going to press you to change it, but don't
sit there and insult my intelligence by saying that it's not a direct
link. It IS a direct link. On your web site, if you want to view people
dying in airplanes, you start accessing that video by clicking a link
called "Cool Stuff".
It's 101 Jay! Keep it if you like it that way, but don't tell me I'm not
reading it the way it is. I AM reading it exactly the way it is!

> So it's not like you click on "Cool Stuff" and go directly to aviation
> carnage, as you frequently seem to imply.

I'm not implying anything. I'm telling you that it's a direct path. Just
because it has an intermidiate link in the middle with other options
doesn't mean that you don't start your path to aviation carnage by
clicking the term "Cool Stuff"

>
> I suppose I could change the main menu item name to something else,
> but, quite frankly, I can't think of another "catch-all" 2-word phrase
> that sums up everything on that menu page so succinctly as "Cool
> Stuff".

Do you REALLY want a "catch all" phrase like "cool stuff" as a lead in
to aviation crash video when you're telling all of us at the same time
that you're stressing the "educational value" and safety factors
involved with these crash videos?
It's just a suggestion Jay, but if I were you, I'd pick something a bit
more appropriate than "Cool Stuff", or do you REALLY want to press the
fact that you're showing the death of these people along with other
"cool things" on the same page and don't wish to make any
differentiation between the carnage and the other "Cool Stuff"
Why don't you kick this around a bit and possibly rethink this
situation?

Dudley Henriques
International Fighter Pilots Fellowship
Flight Instructor/Aerobatics/Retired

Jack Allison

September 26th 04, 05:21 AM

Shiver Me Timbers wrote:

> Well why don't you start by contacting the wives, spouses, and other
> family members of everyone who died in those accidents, and explain to
> them that you are an INNKEEPER in IOWA who uses newsgroups to promote
> yourself and your business and that recently you have discovered that
> you can bring more people to your website by showing gruesome videos of
> airplane accidents where people are killed in a violent manner.

I'll actually fly to Iowa some day and stay at Jay and Mary's place
because I've been fortunate enough to get to know them personally, not
because of his signature line or what he puts on his website. I think
Jay has better business sense than to rely on newsgroups and the video
portion of his website for that oh so huge revenue potential.

--
Jack Allison
PP-ASEL, IA Student

"When once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the Earth
with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been, and there
you will always long to return"
- Leonardo Da Vinci

(Remove the obvious from address to reply via e-mail)

Montblack

September 26th 04, 08:48 AM

("Shiver Me Timbers" wrote)
> Well why don't you humour me and contact the widows of the pilot,
> co-pilot, and all the passengers and ask them what they think of your
> attitude and actions.
>
> Isn't that fair.
>
> After all Jay - If you were personally contacted by one of those widows
> and they asked you to remove those videos.... what would you do.

Mr. Timbers,

Your are obsessed with the whole widow thing - weren't any number of WWII
airplanes called Widow Makers or Flying Coffins? :-)

Anyway, tornado videos? Earthquake footage? Hindenburg footage? Scenes of
London burning during the Blitz? 1986 Challenger video from the chase plane?

Yes, there is a point where some video clips could reach the threshold of
being "too much." I don't know what that is exactly, but I feel Jay's videos
are still on this side of OK.

All of that said, I'm a guy who turns the channel any time local news plays
a 911 emergency tape. That's my personal limit being reached. Jay's videos
are fine by me, yet "Help operator, help. He's going to kill me" phone tapes
on the 10 PM news are not allowed in this house.

Montblack

Martin Hotze

September 26th 04, 10:03 AM

On Sat, 25 Sep 2004 19:52:15 -0600, Newps wrote:

>> Come on Martin, you are far from a usenet purist yourself, since you often
>> expouse your off topic views in this forum.
>
>Martin hasn't posted two on topic posts in the last year.

for example just some minutes ago with a pointer for more "security"
measurements from the US government. IMHO this post is on topic.

#m
--
Somehow, some way, the Left trash talks "multi-national corporations" and
"big corporations" as if they were messengers of evil, when, in fact,
corporations represent the ultimate, perfect expression of communal
ownership of capital. (Jay Honeck in r.a.p.)

Hilton

September 26th 04, 11:50 AM

Jay Honeck wrote:
> Thanks for the suggestion.

So, you ask for opinions and suggestions. You effectively dismiss all
opinions and suggestions (except for very very minor changes). You keep
these threads alive (over and over). You include your motel's URL as often
as possible, etc...

Jay, if you really want to make these videos available and you really aren't
doing this to advertise your motel, and you really value the opinions and
suggestions of fellow pilots in these newsgroups, go get a new
non-motel-related URL, remove the words "cool", "educational", etc... and be
done with these threads and let's get back to discussing aerodynamics, FARs,
how safe the new Sport Pilots will be and real aviation topics. Otherwise,
these threads and your posts just seem to be spam for your motel.

Well, that's my (last) opinion/suggestion for this thread.

Hilton

Jay Honeck

September 26th 04, 02:18 PM

> So, you ask for opinions and suggestions. You effectively dismiss all
> opinions and suggestions (except for very very minor changes). You keep
> these threads alive (over and over). You include your motel's URL as
often
> as possible, etc...

If by "keeping these threads alive" you mean I respond to posts, I guess I'm
guilty!

But, gosh, I thought that's what this place was all about?

And, if you mean my signature line, sorry. It's evolved over my years here
from a simple "Iowa City, IA" to include the plane, and now the hotel. I
don't hide behind anonymity, and I invite everyone to come visit.

Can you match that?

:-)
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

Shiver Me Timbers

September 26th 04, 06:18 PM

> Jay Honeck > wrote:

> And, if you mean my signature line, sorry. It's evolved over my years here
> from a simple "Iowa City, IA" to include the plane, and now the hotel. I
> don't hide behind anonymity, and I invite everyone to come visit.
>
> Can you match that?

No..... Actually I can't match that Jay.

But then I can't match over 18,000 postings to this newsgroup alone
in the past few years either.

GOOGLE is your friend, and that's how many times you have posted to
this newsgroup Jay.

Now your not the only reglular contributor that has made that many
postings, but your the only person in any aviation newsgroup who
shamelessly promotes their business by including their commercial
venture in their SIG, with the exception of Jim Weir. And Jay you
couldn't hold a candle to Jim Weir for decency, and helpfulness in
newsgroup posting on the best day of your life. While he actually helps
people and asks nothing in return, you strictly promote yourself in a
shameless, chronic and continuous basis.

That's what SIG spammers do Jay.

They are everybodies friend, normally polite, don't like controversay,
hate it when anyone holds them up to the light of day, resists changing
their habits till the bitter end, will say anything to justify their
actions, post to as many threads as possible, start as many threads as
possible, chronically in the newsgroup day and nite, posts thousands of
times per year, and like you they never never never post their URL as a
hyperlink, that's too obvious so they leave it plain so it's visible
but doesn't stick out too much.

Jay I've seen people like you in hundreds of newsgroups and you fit the
classic pattern of a SIG spammer to a T. If you couldn't post your URL
in your SIG would you really be in this group yakking it up adding as
many me too comments to as many threads as possible, starting as many
threads as possible.....

Lets be honest Jay in addition to the SIG ads you have recently
received exceptionally good mileage with your motel's photo page which
you have promoted many, many, many, many hundreds if not thousands
of times directly in this very group. Say what you want about better
ways to promote your business besides what you do in newsgroups, the
fact remains that you keep doing it with your SIG alone..... AND IT'S
FREE - That's why your in this group morning noon and nite.

And if none of the above comments are true then why won't you do the
minority of people in this very group a favour and drop Alexis Park Inn
from your SIG and only post a single monthly update to your photo page,
and drop the death videos.

DO THAT JAY AND I WILL NEVER BOTHER YOU AGAIN.

And of course nobody will ever be able to question your motives like
some in this group are questioning your motives right now.

What are you Jay..... A businessperson promoting their business in an
aviation newsgroup and who also happens to be a pilot, or a pilot
promoting aviation in an aviation newsgroup and who also happens to be
a businessperson.

john smith

September 26th 04, 07:34 PM

Answer me this Shiver, just what have you contributed to the aviation
community lately?
At least Jay is providing different services.
All you seem to be able to do is criticize.
What constructive things have you done?

Teacherjh

September 26th 04, 09:08 PM

>>
Say what you want about better
ways to promote your business besides what you do in newsgroups, the
fact remains that you keep doing it with your SIG alone..... AND IT'S
FREE - That's why your in this group morning noon and nite.
<<

It's only free if he'd be posting anyway. But your contention is that he
wouldn't. Thus, it's not free - and the cost (just from the time it takes to
type a post, let alone think of it) is probably quite high for the return it
gets.

Jose

--
(for Email, make the obvious changes in my address)

Montblack

September 26th 04, 10:53 PM

("Shiver Me Timbers" wrote)
<snip>
> What are you Jay..... A businessperson promoting their business in an
> aviation newsgroup and who also happens to be a pilot, or a pilot
> promoting aviation in an aviation newsgroup and who also happens to be
> a businessperson.

Mr. Timbers,

Hey you got peanut butter on my chocolate...

If this was an NFL newsgroup, Jay would be the guy in the stands with cheese
on his head, a Brett Favray jersey on, and a face painted green and
[yellow]. Oh, his kids and his wife would be done up in the same way ...and
this is a road game!!

Jay is, in a word, an enthusiast.

Jay is a bit of a button pusher. Aren't we all?
Jay seems to possess limitless passion for aviation.
Jay has found a way to combine work with, for lack of a better word, hobby.
Jay contributes much to these groups.

As I've stated before, his videos haven't bumped up against my personal
minimums, plus I've yet to be swayed enough to change my opinion that his
having them on the Inn's website is wrong, or bad, or inappropriate, etc..

His hotel business, as part of this newsgroup, is just part of Jay being
Jay, IMHO. Doesn't bother me a bit.

Montblack
Vikes won AND the Bears covered 9 <vBg>
It's been July weather so far this September here in Minnesota.
I'm heading out now for my (75 F) Sunday evening walk.

C Kingsbury

September 27th 04, 12:18 AM

"Shiver Me Timbers" > wrote in message
...
>
> What are you Jay..... A businessperson promoting their business in an
> aviation newsgroup and who also happens to be a pilot, or a pilot
> promoting aviation in an aviation newsgroup and who also happens to be
> a businessperson.
>

Yikes dude, get a grip! If Jay ****es you off so much just killfile him.
It's not like he's spamming the group from a server in Romania.

-cwk.

Peter R.

September 27th 04, 12:57 AM

Shiver Me Timbers wrote:

> DO THAT JAY AND I WILL NEVER BOTHER YOU AGAIN.

Ah, yes, another soul attempting to save Usenet from itself.

Killfile Jay if he bothers you that much. Continuing to criticize him
with the same argument over and over again as you have over the last few
days makes you appear to be a Usenet stalker, which in my book is as low
as a Usenet spammer.

--
Peter

Jay Honeck

September 27th 04, 03:04 AM

> His hotel business, as part of this newsgroup, is just part of Jay being
> Jay, IMHO. Doesn't bother me a bit.

What guys like Shiver don't understand is that our inn is special precisely
BECAUSE of these newsgroups.

He may not have been around back in 2002, when we were seriously considering
buying an old hotel, on an airport, and turning it into a cool aviation
destination. It's quite likely that we would never have bought it, without
the input and support shown from many folks here on the aviation newsgroups.

In many ways, this newsgroup made our hotel what it is today -- equal parts
aviation museum and a nice place to stay. I've gotten more great ideas and
feedback here than anywhere else.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination

Montblack

September 27th 04, 03:46 AM

("Jay Honeck" wrote)
> I've gotten more great ideas and feedback here than anywhere else.

Like high speed internet <g>.

I'm still absolutely shocked that this group suggested that :-)

Montblack
Vikes won today - with a ridiculous amount of help from the refs.
How'd you guys do?

Jay Honeck

September 27th 04, 03:53 AM

*** We interrupt this thread for a rant. Please pardon the interruption, as
it will be short-lived. ***

> But then I can't match over 18,000 postings to this newsgroup alone
> in the past few years either.

Holy crap -- 18K? Whatever you do, DON'T TELL MARY.

;-)

> Now your not the only reglular contributor that has made that many
> postings, but your the only person in any aviation newsgroup who
> shamelessly promotes their business by including their commercial
> venture in their SIG, with the exception of Jim Weir. And Jay you
> couldn't hold a candle to Jim Weir for decency, and helpfulness in
> newsgroup posting on the best day of your life. While he actually helps
> people and asks nothing in return, you strictly promote yourself in a
> shameless, chronic and continuous basis.

I KNEW IT! I just KNEW "Shiver" was realy Jim Weir, in drag!

;-)

> They are everybodies friend, normally polite, don't like controversay,
> hate it when anyone holds them up to the light of day, resists changing
> their habits till the bitter end, will say anything to justify their
> actions, post to as many threads as possible, start as many threads as
> possible, chronically in the newsgroup day and nite, posts thousands of
> times per year, and like you they never never never post their URL as a
> hyperlink, that's too obvious so they leave it plain so it's visible
> but doesn't stick out too much.

Actually, our URL would be a hyperlink at the bottom of every one of my
posts -- if you knew how to use a real newsgroup reader.

And while you're at it, either develop some English language skills, or use
the damned spell checker that has come pre-packaged with every piece of
dime-store software made since 1994. Trying to wade through your
misspellings and parse your tortured grammar is truly tiresome.

> Jay I've seen people like you in hundreds of newsgroups and you fit the
> classic pattern of a SIG spammer to a T. If you couldn't post your URL
> in your SIG would you really be in this group yakking it up adding as
> many me too comments to as many threads as possible, starting as many
> threads as possible.....

You, sir (ma'am?), are an idiot. I was prolifically posting in this
newsgroup long before we bought the hotel. In fact, if you do a Google
search, you will find that I first came here as a new aircraft owner back in
'98 -- and we didn't buy the hotel until late '02.

Aviation, long an interest, didn't burst into full flame for me until I was
finally able to get my PPL in '95, after a lifetime spent gazing skyward.
Then, in '98, when we bought our first plane, it became a real passion.

After Mary got her PPL in '99, the "governor came off the engine," so to
speak, and there was just no stopping us from finding a way -- any way -- to
make a living doing this aviation thing we so loved.

In many ways the long-term denizens of this newsgroup are directly
responsible for Mary and me buying an old hotel, on an airport, in hopes of
converting in into a cool aviation destination. In fact, it is safe to say
that, were it not for the support, suggestions and excellent advice freely
given by so many here, it is unlikely that Mary and I would ever have had
the guts to drop literally everything in our lives in favor of pursuing this
crazy aviation dream.

So, after 22 years, the newspaper world went out the window for me, and
hospitals went out the window for Mary. Most people thought we were nuts.
Some days, we did, too.

Since then, we've made less money than we earned in our first years out of
college, over two decades ago -- but we're having the time of our lives.
We're working a zillion hours, pouring all the profits back into the
business, meeting pilots from all over the world, and simply having a ball.

We spend our free time giving tours of our museum/hotel, having cookouts
with visiting pilots, and going to aviation events of all kinds. Last week
we were in Reno. Today we spent the afternoon at a Cherokee Pilot's
Association fly-in, and the evening flying to pick up a new Wright
Brothers-themed stained glass window, custom made for our Wright Brothers
Suite.

We're living the dream -- and THAT, sir, is the bottom line reason why you
are so bitter.

I've met people like you throughout my career(s). You contribute nothing,
you accomplish nothing, and you try nothing. Instead of daring to live,
you're just waiting to die. You wallow in self-pity, revel in other's
failures, hide in your anonymous bunker, blame everyone, and toss grenades
over the wall at people who actually dare to live.

Well, sir, I've got some sound advice for a surly, useless person like you:
Suck it up, develop a spine, get a life, move on, do something to help
aviation, and live your own dream -- cuz we're loving ours, and we're not
going anywhere.

*** Now, back to your regularly scheduled program. Again, we apologize for
the interruption. ***
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

Jay Honeck

September 27th 04, 04:02 AM

> Like high speed internet <g>.
>
> I'm still absolutely shocked that this group suggested that :-)

What's funny is how far ahead of the curve this group (and, thus, our hotel)
was. Only now are other local hotels advertising "high speed internet" -- as
if it's some sort of revolutionary service.

Sadly, many of them are actually charging extra for this basic service.
(Hell, the Silver Legacy, where we stayed in Reno, had no wireless service,
and just TWO computers for a 700 room hotel -- and they charged five bucks
to check your email!)

Thanks to suggestions from folks on this group, we've had FREE, high speed
wireless for almost two years.

At first, no one cared. Now, EVERYONE loves it.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

Jack Allison

September 27th 04, 06:00 AM

Jay Honeck wrote:

> In many ways, this newsgroup made our hotel what it is today
Oh no Jay...we all did it? We're all to blame? Oh, the horror. Quick,
somebody slap me for reading one of your posts. Curse you man who lives
in the flat corn laden lands of Iowa, curse you!!! :-)

--
Jack Allison
PP-ASEL, IA Student

"When once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the Earth
with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been, and there
you will always long to return"
- Leonardo Da Vinci

(Remove the obvious from address to reply via e-mail)

Jack Allison

September 27th 04, 06:12 AM

Jay Honeck wrote:

> Holy crap -- 18K? Whatever you do, DON'T TELL MARY.
Wow, impressive Jay...I'd call you a spammer just for fun but that's
sort of lost something lately.
>

> I KNEW IT! I just KNEW "Shiver" was realy Jim Weir, in drag!
>
Ah ha, you've solved another mystery my friend. Who'd have thought? Do
you suppose Gail knows? Sorry Jim, Jay brought you into this...I'm just
asking the next logical question...besides, inquiring minds want to know
:-) It's ok, your secret is safe with me. After all, I'm a fellow
left-coaster...unlike those from the flat lands of copious amounts of
corn. :-)

> You, sir (ma'am?), are an idiot.
To quote Montblack from a post long ago..."Uh oh, bad words...".

> *** Now, back to your regularly scheduled program. Again, we apologize for
> the interruption. ***
Thanks for the interruption...great comic relief value...though I'm sure
my wife is wondering what's do darn funny on the computer.

--
Jack Allison
PP-ASEL, IA Student

"When once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the Earth
with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been, and there
you will always long to return"
- Leonardo Da Vinci

(Remove the obvious from address to reply via e-mail)

Jim Fisher

September 28th 04, 04:57 AM

"Hilton" > wrote in message
> Since you conveniently deleted the rest of my post, for completeness,

Cool tghing about this comouter stuff is that you can effortlessly scroll up
and look at the rest . . . of the story.

I was simply responmding to this single part of your post: "As a CFI,
please tell me how I can learn from, and pass on lessons to my students
regarding each of the videos on your website."

I answered that question.

I would further suggest that you tell your stuents to read and watch
anything and everything aviaiton related. Could be a James Bond movie or it
could be a crash video collection. Either way, immersion in aviation is a
Good Thing.

> So before you rant and rave and put words in my mouth, make sure you get
> your facts right.

I didn't put a single work in your mouth. You asked a question. I
answered.

> While I don't speak for others on this NG, I can categorically state that
> I
> certainly would not find it "cool" to watch my friend dying, or anyone
> else
> for that matter.

The don't watch 'em! How damn hard can that be!