Re: Flying under Class B

[Andrew Gideon]

OtisWinslow wrote:

> I haven't flown around NY. I have dealt with Tampa and Miami .. both of
> whom were helpful.

I fly around NY, and have found the controllers typically quite helpful to
VFR traffic. In fact, I once surprised a VFR-only pilot in our club with
how helpful they are. We were departing Caldwell for the NJ shore in an
aircraft w/o a GPS (it has since been upgraded, of course {8^). His plan
was to fly around the class B to the west. I suggested "through", which
surprised him a little.

But a quick request to TRACON got us not only entry, but a vector to Colts
Neck (which we couldn't receive at our current position/altitude).

As I said, they're very helpful.

There have been a few exceptions, but these were all (as far as I can
recall) recognizably high-workload situations for them.

But this raises a question about which I keep forgetting. I was once IFRing
into Linden - an uncontrolled airport right next to Newark - in VMC. ATC
wanted me to cancel as early as possible of course, and I was perfectly
willing to do so. I just wanted to be below the class B first, but - at
least where I was - the floor was below ATC's MVA. So I cancelled, but I
felt a little odd being in class B having never received explicit clearance
into it.

Silly of me?

- Andrew

[Dave Butler]

> But this raises a question about which I keep forgetting. I was once IFRing
> into Linden - an uncontrolled airport right next to Newark - in VMC. ATC
> wanted me to cancel as early as possible of course, and I was perfectly
> willing to do so. I just wanted to be below the class B first, but - at
> least where I was - the floor was below ATC's MVA. So I cancelled, but I
> felt a little odd being in class B having never received explicit clearance
> into it.
>
> Silly of me?

You were on a clearance when you entered Class B. That would be good enough for me.

[G.R. Patterson III]

Andrew Gideon wrote:
>
> But a quick request to TRACON got us not only entry, but a vector to Colts
> Neck (which we couldn't receive at our current position/altitude).
>
> As I said, they're very helpful.

That's different. The original poster was suggesting that you request traffic
advisories while under the class-B floor. In my experience, you won't get VFR traffic
advisories from NY ATC.

George Patterson
If a man gets into a fight 3,000 miles away from home, he *had* to have
been looking for it.

[Teacherjh]

>>
The original poster was suggesting that you request traffic
advisories while under the class-B floor. In my experience, you won't get VFR
traffic
advisories from NY ATC
<<

Under the NYC class B you should be on the helicopter frequencies (printed on
the charts).

Jose

--
(for Email, make the obvious changes in my address)

[zatatime]

On 02 Oct 2004 03:11:45 GMT, (Teacherjh)
wrote:

>Under the NYC class B you should be on the helicopter frequencies (printed on
>the charts).


Where on the Sectional are they? I don't see any.

z

[Peter R.]

Teacherjh ) wrote:

> >>
> The original poster was suggesting that you request traffic
> advisories while under the class-B floor. In my experience, you won't get VFR
> traffic
> advisories from NY ATC
> <<
>
> Under the NYC class B you should be on the helicopter frequencies (printed on
> the charts).

Are you referring to the frequencies posted on the NY terminal chart for
the two VFR corridors? I don't believe those discreet frequencies are
used outside the corridors.


--
Peter

[Roy Smith]

"G.R. Patterson III" > wrote:
> That's different. The original poster was suggesting that you request traffic
> advisories while under the class-B floor. In my experience, you won't get VFR
> traffic advisories from NY ATC.

Not in my experience. Sure, if it's busy they may not be able, but most
of the time advisories are no problem.

[ISLIP]

>The original poster was suggesting that you request traffic
>advisories while under the class-B floor.

I've flown under the NYC Class B floor along the beach several times, You can
tal to Kennedy tower but they've never done more than acknowlege the call.

One day I started thinking about the wake turbulence of the Airbuses & 747"s
passing 500' above me as they land on 33L&R & haven't flown below the floor
since.
It's just too easy to get clearance through the Class B


John

[Teacherjh]

>>
> >>
> The original poster was suggesting that you request traffic
> advisories while under the class-B floor. In my experience, you won't get VFR
> traffic
> advisories from NY ATC
> <<
>
> Under the NYC class B you should be on the helicopter frequencies (printed on
> the charts).

Are you referring to the frequencies posted on the NY terminal chart for
the two VFR corridors? I don't believe those discreet frequencies are
used outside the corridors.
<<

Yes, I was referring to those frequencies, and (erroniously) assumed he was
talking about the corridors.

Under the floor but not in the corridors (under the shelf, essentially) I've
gotten advisories from NY ATC.

Jose

--
(for Email, make the obvious changes in my address)

[Andrew Gideon]

Roy Smith wrote:

> "G.R. Patterson III" > wrote:
>> That's different. The original poster was suggesting that you request
>> traffic advisories while under the class-B floor. In my experience, you
>> won't get VFR traffic advisories from NY ATC.
>
> Not in my experience. Sure, if it's busy they may not be able, but most
> of the time advisories are no problem.

I've never tried to get advisories from TRACON while under the class B.
I've no idea what RADAR coverage they have there, in fact. If I'm going to
be talking to someone anyway, why not get clearance through?

Oh, well, this isn't quite true. Plenty of times I've contacted TRACON
while under the class B after departing CDW, but I've always requested
class B as well as advisories. On the rare case where I couldn't climb
immediately, I've still usually received the flight following.

There have been odd cases where I've not been able to get advisories outside
of the class B, but they've been few and - at least as far as I can recall
- all situations where the issue was workload. Usually, I'm told to call
back in a few minutes.

FWIW, I've also done the "Parkway Transition" at 1000, but this involves
talking to Newark Tower. They had me wait once, but have never said "no".

So my experience with NY TRACON has been that they're usually quite willing
to provide VFR advisories.

- Andrew

[Andrew Gideon]

ISLIP wrote:

> One day I started thinking about the wake turbulence of the Airbuses &
> 747"s passing 500' above me as they land on 33L&R & haven't flown below
> the floor since.
> It's just too easy to get clearance through the Class B
>

Would you happen to know what route/altitude they usually like for transit
between New Jersey and LI? I'd like to be able to request what they like
to provide.

Amusingly enough, I've *never* flown over LI (despite having grown up there
{8^).

- Andrew

[Gary Drescher]

"Andrew Gideon" > wrote in message
online.com...
> Roy Smith wrote:
>
>> "G.R. Patterson III" > wrote:
>>> That's different. The original poster was suggesting that you request
>>> traffic advisories while under the class-B floor. In my experience, you
>>> won't get VFR traffic advisories from NY ATC.
>>
>> Not in my experience. Sure, if it's busy they may not be able, but most
>> of the time advisories are no problem.
>
> I've never tried to get advisories from TRACON while under the class B.
> I've no idea what RADAR coverage they have there, in fact. If I'm going
> to
> be talking to someone anyway, why not get clearance through?

If you fly along the LI shore past JFK, you might not get cleared into Class
B (which starts just above 500'), but you can usually get traffic advisories
underneath. Along the Hudson corridor, though, I think they want you in
Class B for advisories.

--Gary

[Andrew Gideon]

Gary Drescher wrote:

> st JFK, you might not get cleared into Class
> B (which starts just above 500'), but you can usually get traffic
> advisories underneath.

That's not really very convenient for me. Plus, I'd prefer to be higher.
Plus plus, over Manhatten would certainly add to the fun. That's why I'm
looking for a route through the class B. Hopefully, someone'll write that
something like TEB->LGA at 5500 is what they prefer, or some such. That
would work perfectly for me.

> Along the Hudson corridor, though, I think they
> want you in Class B for advisories.

I'm afraid I don't understand. When someone writes "the Hudson corridor",
he or she is usually referring to the "exclusion zone" in which people can
fly within - but not in - the class B. I have flown *over* the corridor
while speaking to ATC (LGA tower, mostly). Is that what you mean? I
didn't know that this was preferred by ATC.

[*I* like it because it permits a transit over Manhatten and then down the
East River. A nice alternative view to just the Hudson.]

- Andrew

[Roy Smith]

In article e.com>,
Andrew Gideon > wrote:

> Gary Drescher wrote:
>
> > st JFK, you might not get cleared into Class
> > B (which starts just above 500'), but you can usually get traffic
> > advisories underneath.
>
> That's not really very convenient for me. Plus, I'd prefer to be higher.
> Plus plus, over Manhatten would certainly add to the fun. That's why I'm
> looking for a route through the class B. Hopefully, someone'll write that
> something like TEB->LGA at 5500 is what they prefer, or some such. That
> would work perfectly for me.

If you're transiting the Class B east-west, NY Approach will often hand
you off to LGA Tower, and tower will bring you right over the top of the
airport at 1500. They'll tell you to fly directly over the runway
intersection. Heading west, LGA Tower will sometimes give you back to
NY Approach, or sometimes just hand you off directly to TEB Tower as you
cross the Hudson.

It seems strange the first time, but it actually makes a lot of sense.
Right over the top of the airport, all the traffic is at ground level,
safely below you. You get some good sight-seeing in too!

>> Along the Hudson corridor, though, I think they
>> want you in Class B for advisories.
>
> I'm afraid I don't understand. When someone writes "the Hudson corridor",
> he or she is usually referring to the "exclusion zone" in which people can
> fly within - but not in - the class B. I have flown *over* the corridor
> while speaking to ATC (LGA tower, mostly). Is that what you mean? I
> didn't know that this was preferred by ATC.

I think what he meant was while they're often willing to give you a
Class B clearance at 1500 down (or up) the Hudson, if you call them up
at 1000 in the exclusion corridor and ask for flight following, you'll
almost certainly be turned down. My personal preference is 1500 with
the clearance; the view is just as good, and I like the idea of not
being down in the zoo of traffic at 1000. NY Approach will clear you
in, then hand you off to LGA Tower, who in turn will hand you off to EWR
Tower once you get to about midtown.

If you're looking for a scenic route, I've often had good luck getting
Class Bravo clearances up the East River. Once you get to the 59th
Street Bridge, you'll get your choice of a left turn over Central Park
and over to the Hudson, or a right turn over LGA (see above) and out to
Long Island Sound.

[Gary Drescher]

"Andrew Gideon" > wrote in message
online.com...
>> Along the Hudson corridor, though, I think they
>> want you in Class B for advisories.
>
> I'm afraid I don't understand. When someone writes "the Hudson corridor",
> he or she is usually referring to the "exclusion zone" in which people can
> fly within - but not in - the class B. I have flown *over* the corridor
> while speaking to ATC (LGA tower, mostly). Is that what you mean?

Yup, sorry I stated it confusingly. The times I've approached the Hudson
with flight following, intending to fly in the Class E corridor, ATC cleared
me up into the Class B. When I replied that I'd rather stay below (for a
better view), they terminated services. I assume that's either because the
exclusion zone is too low for radar coverage, or else because it has too
much traffic for them to issue advisories there.

--Gary

[Andrew Gideon]

Gary Drescher wrote:

> I assume that's either
> because the exclusion zone is too low for radar coverage, or else because
> it has too much traffic for them to issue advisories there.

I'm not sure about the coverage, but can definitely see the problem issuing
advisories for that (as Roy calls it {8^) zoo. I've never tried this
myself, as - if I'm going to be in the zoo - I'd rather be on the same
frequency as all the other animals <laugh>.

- Andrew

[Andrew Gideon]

Roy Smith wrote:

> If you're transiting the Class B east-west, NY Approach will often hand
> you off to LGA Tower, and tower will bring you right over the top of the
> airport at 1500. They'll tell you to fly directly over the runway
> intersection. Heading west, LGA Tower will sometimes give you back to
> NY Approach, or sometimes just hand you off directly to TEB Tower as you
> cross the Hudson.
>
> It seems strange the first time, but it actually makes a lot of sense.
> Right over the top of the airport, all the traffic is at ground level,
> safely below you. You get some good sight-seeing in too!

I understand that. My usual route from CDW to points south passes over EWR.
I'm a little surprised at the altitude, though. I've not looked at the
approach plates, but I'd have guessed that JFK's approaches from the north
would be an issue.

- Andrew

[Rosspilot]

Roy Smith wrote:

> If you're transiting the Class B east-west, NY Approach will often hand
> you off to LGA Tower, and tower will bring you right over the top of the
> airport at 1500. They'll tell you to fly directly over the runway
> intersection.

When I do it, I ask for "North Tip, Tower Cab, South Stanchion" . . . and I
always get it. Goes from north tip of Roosevelt Island directly over the LGA
Tower and then the south stanchion of the Throgs Neck Bridge.



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