The next X prize

[Chris]

So, what do you think the next X prize will bring? First privately
funded re-usable spacecraft to orbit the earth? To the moon? Looks like
this is gearing up to be the next big economy 'boom'

[Earl Grieda]

"Chris" > wrote in message
...
> So, what do you think the next X prize will bring? First privately
> funded re-usable spacecraft to orbit the earth? To the moon? Looks like
> this is gearing up to be the next big economy 'boom'

It will be interesting. However, its to bad that greedy American CEOs have
ruined engineering as a profession so much that now American schools
graduate less and less engineers each year, and of those graduates many are
foreign born. Perhaps the Chinese and Indians will do well. Once they rule
space they will rule the planet. But we can provide the marketing fluff.

Earl G

[Jay Honeck]

> So, what do you think the next X prize will bring? First privately funded
> re-usable spacecraft to orbit the earth? To the moon? Looks like this is
> gearing up to be the next big economy 'boom'

According to "Air & Space" magazine, Congress has before it a bill that
would provide $20 million for various aeronautical "X" prizes, in hopes of
spurring more Rutan-like entrepreneurs. One of the ideas being proposed is
an "X" prize for flying a "life form" to the moon, and keeping it alive for
90 days.

Although using taxes for this kind of stuff rubs me the wrong way, it *does*
provide "seed money" for thinking outside the box.

Sadly, some stupid government bureaucracy will (of course) have to be set up
to administer the program, which will probably suck most of the life (and
funding) out of it.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Dean Wilkinson]

Earl,

Lots of truth here! When I graduated as a E.E. in 1987 engineering
was a respectable profession. Now we are just an expense item that
needs to be reduced by off-shoring to India and China. The current
crop of CEOs are mostly MBAs without a clue as to where all the
product they are currently selling came from... or maybe they just
don't care. If I were entering college right now, I don't think that
I would want to go through the expense and hard work of an engineering
curriculum with such an uncertain return on investment waiting for me
in corporate America. That's why American students are staying away
from engineering right now...

Dean

"Earl Grieda" > wrote in message t>...
> "Chris" > wrote in message
> ...
> > So, what do you think the next X prize will bring? First privately
> > funded re-usable spacecraft to orbit the earth? To the moon? Looks like
> > this is gearing up to be the next big economy 'boom'
>
> It will be interesting. However, its to bad that greedy American CEOs have
> ruined engineering as a profession so much that now American schools
> graduate less and less engineers each year, and of those graduates many are
> foreign born. Perhaps the Chinese and Indians will do well. Once they rule
> space they will rule the planet. But we can provide the marketing fluff.
>
> Earl G

[Jay Honeck]

> Lots of truth here! When I graduated as a E.E. in 1987 engineering
> was a respectable profession. Now we are just an expense item that
> needs to be reduced by off-shoring to India and China. The current
> crop of CEOs are mostly MBAs without a clue as to where all the
> product they are currently selling came from... or maybe they just
> don't care. If I were entering college right now, I don't think that
> I would want to go through the expense and hard work of an engineering
> curriculum with such an uncertain return on investment waiting for me
> in corporate America. That's why American students are staying away
> from engineering right now...

Supply and demand rules.

When I was growing up in the 1960s and 70s, engineering ruled. My Dad, a
career manager with a herd of engineers working for him, urged me to get an
engineering degree. In his mind, it was the Holy Grail that would ensure
his son's future, as the pay was extremely high, and the hours were
certainly good.

Instead, much to his dismay, I obtained an English degree. :-)

It appears that a lot of my peers listened to their fathers, and went the
engineering route. The pay was (and still, in some industries, is)
extremely high, and the hours are still good -- but as the supply of
engineers increased, the demand for them decreased.

Any good CEO is ALWAYS looking for areas to cut costs, and salaries are
usually the biggest item on the balance sheet. If a company can get the
same work for less pay, they would be stupid not to.

That's the free market. It sucks, sometimes.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Dan Luke]

"Jay Honeck" wrote:
> Supply and demand rules.
[snip]
> That's the free market. It sucks, sometimes.

It is getting to the point where it will suck ALL the time for the incomes
of many Americans. The global free market economy will tend to level out
standards of living world-wide. Americans (and West Europeans) will not
like this, I predict.
--
Dan
C-172RG at BFM

[Teacherjh]

>>
One of the ideas being proposed is
an "X" prize for flying a "life form" to the moon, and keeping it alive for
90 days.
<<

The Melissa worm?

Jose

--
(for Email, make the obvious changes in my address)

[C Kingsbury]

I work in the software industry and have a lot of friends who got their
degrees in mechanical, civil, electrical, and chemical engineering. They all
weathered the past three years better than my other friends who had "leisure
arts" degrees, but they've all also gone down more of a management track.

In IT, what I see is that core engineering is still being done here, but
grunt work that involves relatively little local-area expertise is slowly
moving offshore. The real losers in this case are the marginally-skilled
people who were just capable enough to get into IT, and because of the
relative shortage of people were enjoying relatively high salaries (e.g.
60-80k in New England) performing relatively straightforward jobs.

However, I think for every ten companies that talk about doing it, there is
maybe one or two that actually go for it, and the wage differentials
everybody talks about (e.g. $5/hr for an Indian engineer) never pan out. For
instance, if you want to employ 20 engineers at a call center in India,
you'll need to run your own fiber optic lines or get a satellite dish, and
have an electrical generator that can run it all when (not if) the local
power station browns out. Quite a few companies have seen offshoring blow up
in their face.

Does anybody remember the days when computers were going to put us all out
of a job? Well, I guess they did eliminate the need for so many telephone
operators and clerks, but overall white-collar employment is quite a bit
larger as a proportion of the population than it was 50 years ago. Something
tells me we'll survive this latest scare too.

Best,
-cwk.

[Bob Chilcoat]

>American schools
> graduate less and less engineers each year,

fewer and fewer engineers. (I are one).
--
Bob (Chief Pilot, White Knuckle Airways)

I don't have to like Bush and Cheney (Or Kerry, for that matter) to love
America

[John Harlow]

> Although using taxes for this kind of stuff rubs me the wrong way, it
> *does* provide "seed money" for thinking outside the box.

I'd much rather pay this than for gasoline subsidies to Iraqis.

"Hello, NASA, (tap tap) is this thing on?"

[Bob Fry]

> That's the free market. It sucks, sometimes.

[With respect to engineers] It's more than simply the free market. I
work for a state water agency, no offshoring going on there. But
society's interest in entertainment in the last couple of decades, and
decreasing interest in accomplishment, has rendered our agency a bad
place to work for engineers, just like many other places. Americans
want to be entertained, and think the material things they enjoy just
sort of happen to a deserving people. Imagine their surprise when they
find out ya gotta work for them.

[Bob Fry]

"Dan Luke" > writes:

> > That's the free market. It sucks, sometimes.
>
> It is getting to the point where it will suck ALL the time for the incomes
> of many Americans. The global free market economy will tend to level out
> standards of living world-wide. Americans (and West Europeans) will not
> like this, I predict.

True, but we could lessen this affect quite a bit by pursuing free
trade agreements with 1st world partners, instead of 3rd world. With
3rd world partners big business gets cheap labor and they get a market
to dump cheap goods. Our middle class loses. With 1st world partners
we'd get a market for high-value-added goods and no cheap labor
competition. The middle class would win.

[Roger Halstead]

On 06 Oct 2004 06:10:46 -0700, Bob Fry
> wrote:

>
>> That's the free market. It sucks, sometimes.
>
>[With respect to engineers] It's more than simply the free market. I
>work for a state water agency, no offshoring going on there. But
>society's interest in entertainment in the last couple of decades, and
>decreasing interest in accomplishment, has rendered our agency a bad
>place to work for engineers, just like many other places. Americans
>want to be entertained, and think the material things they enjoy just
>sort of happen to a deserving people. Imagine their surprise when they
>find out ya gotta work for them.

What? Work? You mean I'm supposed to be working? No wonder I didn't
get that new Baron for my Birthday.

Roger (I love Retirement!) Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

[Jay Honeck]

> True, but we could lessen this affect quite a bit by pursuing free
> trade agreements with 1st world partners, instead of 3rd world. With
> 3rd world partners big business gets cheap labor and they get a market
> to dump cheap goods. Our middle class loses. With 1st world partners
> we'd get a market for high-value-added goods and no cheap labor
> competition. The middle class would win.

Which 1st world countries don't we have free-trade agreements with?
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Jay Honeck]

>> Although using taxes for this kind of stuff rubs me the wrong way, it
>> *does* provide "seed money" for thinking outside the box.
>
> I'd much rather pay this than for gasoline subsidies to Iraqis.

Boy, that's for sure!

Although, in the long run, fixing Iraq is the better thing to do.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[G.R. Patterson III]

Bob Fry wrote:
>
> Imagine their surprise when they
> find out ya gotta w**k for them.

You shouldn't use those four-letter words in a public forum.

George Patterson
If a man gets into a fight 3,000 miles away from home, he *had* to have
been looking for it.

[C Kingsbury]

"Bob Fry" > wrote in message
...
>
> > That's the free market. It sucks, sometimes.
>
> [With respect to engineers] It's more than simply the free market. I
> work for a state water agency, no offshoring going on there. But
> society's interest in entertainment in the last couple of decades, and
> decreasing interest in accomplishment, has rendered our agency a bad
> place to work for engineers, just like many other places.

The private sector still respects accomplishment pretty well. However, the
prestige of an engineering degree is certainly not what it was 20-30 years
ago. But then, neither is any degree.

As for entertainment, this is a by-product of leisure time and disposable
income, which have increased significantly over the long haul. People are
"struggling to get by" but they're still finding an average of 4 hours/day
to watch TV, according to Nielsen. They'd probably be struggling a little
less if they weren't making 15% interest payments on a credit card they used
to buy a $3,000 plasma TV.

Virginia Postrel has also written an interesting book called "the Substance
of Style" that talks about the increasing importance of aesthetics as a
value generator. Basically, with global manufacturing turning every product
into a low-cost commodity item (think mobile phones) the only way to
distinguish products is through their design/fashion. Thus "soft" factors
become real value generators.

I think scifi writer Neal Stephenson said it best in one of his books set in
the near-future. It went something like, "in a global economy every country
does only what it does best, and what the United States does better than
anyone is blockbuster Hollywood movies and fast-delivery pizza." FWIW, our
entertainment industry is actually a huge export earner for us. The rest of
the world may hate us politically but culturally they're still hooked.

-cwk.

Best,
-cwk.

[Bob Fry]

"C Kingsbury" > writes:

> People are
> "struggling to get by" but they're still finding an average of 4 hours/day
> to watch TV, according to Nielsen. They'd probably be struggling a little
> less if they weren't making 15% interest payments on a credit card they used
> to buy a $3,000 plasma TV.

You got that right. Some years ago we were landlords for a 2 BR
condo, which attracted entry-level renters. It was astounding to see
people with incomes not much above minimum wage with accounts at
Nordstrom's (high-end department store), new car payments, cell phone
bills, cable TV payments, yada yada. And of course lots of bad
credit. They had not a clue what the word "thrift" meant.

[Bob Fry]

"Jay Honeck" > writes:

> Although, in the long run, fixing Iraq is the better thing to do.

The Mid-East cannot be fixed, especially by outsiders (hated
infidels). Bush and his buddies were incredibly naive, arrogant, and
ignorant to think they could.

The best thing we could do is do a crash program, like the atom bomb
or space race, to develop other energy sources (safe nukes and solar
primarily) and give away the technology to Europe so the Western World
can tell these camel-f****ers to go back to the 8th century where they
want to be anyway.

Bob 30-years-studying-and-working-besides-mid-east-people Fry

[Cub Driver]

On Wed, 06 Oct 2004 15:10:07 GMT, "Jay Honeck"
> wrote:

>Which 1st world countries don't we have free-trade agreements with?

It would be easier to list those we *do* have FTAs with. There's
Canada. And soon: Australia. Anyone else?


all the best -- Dan Ford
email: (put Cubdriver in subject line)

Warbird's Forum www.warbirdforum.com
Piper Cub Forum www.pipercubforum.com
Viva Bush! www.vivabush.org

[bryan chaisone]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message news:<jVT8d.197752$D%.81366@attbi_s51>...
> > True, but we could lessen this affect quite a bit by pursuing free
> > trade agreements with 1st world partners, instead of 3rd world. With
> > 3rd world partners big business gets cheap labor and they get a market
> > to dump cheap goods. Our middle class loses. With 1st world partners
> > we'd get a market for high-value-added goods and no cheap labor
> > competition. The middle class would win.
>
> Which 1st world countries don't we have free-trade agreements with?

Would someone please give me a definition of 1st, 2nd and 3rd world countries?

What is the deciding factor?

Bryan

[Gig Giacona]

"bryan chaisone" > wrote in message
om...
> "Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
> news:<jVT8d.197752$D%.81366@attbi_s51>...
>> > True, but we could lessen this affect quite a bit by pursuing free
>> > trade agreements with 1st world partners, instead of 3rd world. With
>> > 3rd world partners big business gets cheap labor and they get a market
>> > to dump cheap goods. Our middle class loses. With 1st world partners
>> > we'd get a market for high-value-added goods and no cheap labor
>> > competition. The middle class would win.
>>
>> Which 1st world countries don't we have free-trade agreements with?
>
> Would someone please give me a definition of 1st, 2nd and 3rd world
> countries?
>
> What is the deciding factor?
>
> Bryan


Bryan a lot of this goes back to Cold war days but basicly, US, Western
Europe and Japan is the 1st World. The old Warsaw pact countries were the
second and all the "Developing countries" were the 3rd.

There will be those that will disagree.

[Jay Honeck]

> You got that right. Some years ago we were landlords for a 2 BR
> condo, which attracted entry-level renters. It was astounding to see
> people with incomes not much above minimum wage with accounts at
> Nordstrom's (high-end department store), new car payments, cell phone
> bills, cable TV payments, yada yada. And of course lots of bad
> credit. They had not a clue what the word "thrift" meant.

To be "poor" in America means:

- You only have a 27 inch color TV
- You only have cable -- no satellite
- You're 40 pounds overweight
- You have only two credit cards -- both max'd out
- You only have one car

Why do you think people keep dying in their attempts to get here?
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Cub Driver]

On Thu, 7 Oct 2004 15:29:53 -0500, "Gig Giacona"
> wrote:

>There will be those that will disagree.

I don't! That's exactly where the term came from:

1. Us
2. Them
3. Everyone Else

all the best -- Dan Ford
email: (put Cubdriver in subject line)

Warbird's Forum www.warbirdforum.com
Piper Cub Forum www.pipercubforum.com
Viva Bush! www.vivabush.org

[Dylan Smith]

In article <I%j9d.208006$D%.171689@attbi_s51>, Jay Honeck wrote:
> - You have only two credit cards -- both max'd out

The trouble is - by that stage you are owned by your posessions, rather
than owning them.

--
Dylan Smith, Castletown, Isle of Man
Flying: http://www.dylansmith.net
Frontier Elite Universe: http://www.alioth.net
"Maintain thine airspeed, lest the ground come up and smite thee"

[Jay Honeck]

>> - You have only two credit cards -- both max'd out
>
> The trouble is - by that stage you are owned by your posessions, rather
> than owning them.

Truer words were never spoken.

I've known too many people who are up to their hips in credit card debt, and
are just slaves to their possessions. It's a tragedy that can be so easily
avoided, yet is so hard for many to resist.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Jay Honeck]

>> - You have only two credit cards -- both max'd out
>
> The trouble is - by that stage you are owned by your posessions, rather
> than owning them.

Truer words were never spoken.

I've known too many people who are up to their hips in credit card debt, and
are just slaves to their possessions. It's a tragedy that can be so easily
avoided, yet is so hard for many to resist.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[bryan chaisone]

Cub Driver > wrote in message >...
> On Thu, 7 Oct 2004 15:29:53 -0500, "Gig Giacona"
> > wrote:
>
> >There will be those that will disagree.
>
> I don't! That's exactly where the term came from:
>
> 1. Us
> 2. Them
> 3. Everyone Else
>
> all the best -- Dan Ford
> email: (put Cubdriver in subject line)
>
> Warbird's Forum www.warbirdforum.com
> Piper Cub Forum www.pipercubforum.com
> Viva Bush! www.vivabush.org


Thank you Cig and Cub Driver.

Bryan

[bryan chaisone]

Cub Driver > wrote in message >...
> On Thu, 7 Oct 2004 15:29:53 -0500, "Gig Giacona"
> > wrote:
>
> >There will be those that will disagree.
>
> I don't! That's exactly where the term came from:
>
> 1. Us
> 2. Them
> 3. Everyone Else
>
> all the best -- Dan Ford
> email: (put Cubdriver in subject line)
>
> Warbird's Forum www.warbirdforum.com
> Piper Cub Forum www.pipercubforum.com
> Viva Bush! www.vivabush.org


Thank you Cig and Cub Driver.

Bryan

[Doug Carter]

"Earl Grieda" > wrote in message news:>

> It will be interesting. However, its to bad that greedy American CEOs have
> ruined engineering as a profession...

Woe is us! The situation is so bad in America that its no wonder that
the French won the X prize... or was it the Koreans or the Brasilians?
Whomever... doesn't matter, could'nt be Americans as they are far too
busy is self pity and loathing to actually acomplish anything!

[Doug Carter]

"Earl Grieda" > wrote in message news:>

> It will be interesting. However, its to bad that greedy American CEOs have
> ruined engineering as a profession...

Woe is us! The situation is so bad in America that its no wonder that
the French won the X prize... or was it the Koreans or the Brasilians?
Whomever... doesn't matter, could'nt be Americans as they are far too
busy is self pity and loathing to actually acomplish anything!

[G.R. Patterson III]

Jay Honeck wrote:
>
> I've known too many people who are up to their hips in credit card debt, and
> are just slaves to their possessions.

You can be a slave to your possessions and not owe a penny.

George Patterson
If a man gets into a fight 3,000 miles away from home, he *had* to have
been looking for it.

[G.R. Patterson III]

Jay Honeck wrote:
>
> I've known too many people who are up to their hips in credit card debt, and
> are just slaves to their possessions.

You can be a slave to your possessions and not owe a penny.

George Patterson
If a man gets into a fight 3,000 miles away from home, he *had* to have
been looking for it.

[Dylan Smith]

In article >, G.R. Patterson III wrote:
>> I've known too many people who are up to their hips in credit card debt, and
>> are just slaves to their possessions.
>
> You can be a slave to your possessions and not owe a penny.

Very true - but the fastest and easiest way of being a slave to your
posessions is by living beyond your means. Carrying a persistent credit
card balance is often (but not always) a sign of living beyond your means.

--
Dylan Smith, Castletown, Isle of Man
Flying: http://www.dylansmith.net
Frontier Elite Universe: http://www.alioth.net
"Maintain thine airspeed, lest the ground come up and smite thee"

[Dylan Smith]

In article >, G.R. Patterson III wrote:
>> I've known too many people who are up to their hips in credit card debt, and
>> are just slaves to their possessions.
>
> You can be a slave to your possessions and not owe a penny.

Very true - but the fastest and easiest way of being a slave to your
posessions is by living beyond your means. Carrying a persistent credit
card balance is often (but not always) a sign of living beyond your means.

--
Dylan Smith, Castletown, Isle of Man
Flying: http://www.dylansmith.net
Frontier Elite Universe: http://www.alioth.net
"Maintain thine airspeed, lest the ground come up and smite thee"

[Paul Sengupta]

"G.R. Patterson III" > wrote in message
...
>
> Jay Honeck wrote:
> >
> > I've known too many people who are up to their hips in credit card debt,
and
> > are just slaves to their possessions.
>
> You can be a slave to your possessions and not owe a penny.

I'm here still working at 5.12am as I have a plane to pay for. :-)

Paul