Night solo XC?

[G. Burkhart]

A question to the group. Do you normally fly many night solo cross
country flights? I have been going out to the local airport every couple
months to do some night flying, but it's usually solo just around the patch
to get night current so I can carry a passenger at night. The few times that
I have done cross countries at night, I either have a passenger (usually
pilot rated too) or an instructor (during training a few years ago).

I was going to do a short night XC a couple weeks ago and took off, got
about 10 miles out and didn't 'feel' right so I returned to the pattern. It
was probably just me, but it seemed like some strange noises from the plane
that I don't notice during day flight. If I have a passenger, I'm not as
concerned about flying XC at night. All of my night flights have been when
there is close to a full moon so visibility isn't a factor.

-Greg B.

[tony roberts]

Hi Greg

There are only 3 times that planes make strange noises -
Over mountains,
Over water,
And at night.

I fly night approx every 2 weeks which gives me full moon and no moon.
If I take off at night I only fly areas that I know.
Lately I have been trying a different tack - I live in a valley
surrounded by lots of ranges of mountains.
Lately I have been flying out and timing my return leg so that I am over
my highest peak as night falls- and then returning home. It's great
experience - and I've heard the engine make lots of noises that I didn't
even know it could make!
Two weeks ago I took off from a Valley airport and couldn't see a thing
- so I circled and climbed until I could see lights in the direction I
wanted to go - and then departed. If you fly for light you won't hit
anything - except the light! How dumb is that :)? There's a little tip
that Machado won't tell you :)

Tony

In article <0joad.218088$MQ5.166822@attbi_s52>,
"G. Burkhart" > wrote:

> A question to the group. Do you normally fly many night solo cross
> country flights? I have been going out to the local airport every couple
> months to do some night flying, but it's usually solo just around the patch
> to get night current so I can carry a passenger at night. The few times that
> I have done cross countries at night, I either have a passenger (usually
> pilot rated too) or an instructor (during training a few years ago).
>
> I was going to do a short night XC a couple weeks ago and took off, got
> about 10 miles out and didn't 'feel' right so I returned to the pattern. It
> was probably just me, but it seemed like some strange noises from the plane
> that I don't notice during day flight. If I have a passenger, I'm not as
> concerned about flying XC at night. All of my night flights have been when
> there is close to a full moon so visibility isn't a factor.
>
> -Greg B.




--

Tony Roberts
PP-ASEL
VFR OTT
Night
Cessna 172H C-GICE

[tony roberts]

Hi Greg

There are only 3 times that planes make strange noises -
Over mountains,
Over water,
And at night.

I fly night approx every 2 weeks which gives me full moon and no moon.
If I take off at night I only fly areas that I know.
Lately I have been trying a different tack - I live in a valley
surrounded by lots of ranges of mountains.
Lately I have been flying out and timing my return leg so that I am over
my highest peak as night falls- and then returning home. It's great
experience - and I've heard the engine make lots of noises that I didn't
even know it could make!
Two weeks ago I took off from a Valley airport and couldn't see a thing
- so I circled and climbed until I could see lights in the direction I
wanted to go - and then departed. If you fly for light you won't hit
anything - except the light! How dumb is that :)? There's a little tip
that Machado won't tell you :)

Tony

In article <0joad.218088$MQ5.166822@attbi_s52>,
"G. Burkhart" > wrote:

> A question to the group. Do you normally fly many night solo cross
> country flights? I have been going out to the local airport every couple
> months to do some night flying, but it's usually solo just around the patch
> to get night current so I can carry a passenger at night. The few times that
> I have done cross countries at night, I either have a passenger (usually
> pilot rated too) or an instructor (during training a few years ago).
>
> I was going to do a short night XC a couple weeks ago and took off, got
> about 10 miles out and didn't 'feel' right so I returned to the pattern. It
> was probably just me, but it seemed like some strange noises from the plane
> that I don't notice during day flight. If I have a passenger, I'm not as
> concerned about flying XC at night. All of my night flights have been when
> there is close to a full moon so visibility isn't a factor.
>
> -Greg B.




--

Tony Roberts
PP-ASEL
VFR OTT
Night
Cessna 172H C-GICE

[Peter Duniho]

"G. Burkhart" > wrote in message
news:0joad.218088$MQ5.166822@attbi_s52...
> A question to the group. Do you normally fly many night solo cross
> country flights? I have been going out to the local airport every couple
> months to do some night flying, but it's usually solo just around the
> patch to get night current so I can carry a passenger at night. The few
> times that I have done cross countries at night, I either have a passenger
> (usually pilot rated too) or an instructor (during training a few years
> ago).

"Normally"? Dunno about that...unfortunately, I have been not night current
more often than I have been current the last year or so. :)

But that said, when I *am* current, yes, most of my night flying is on
cross-countries. Usually not terribly long ones...often less than an hour
of flying, almost always less than two hours. But I've had my share of
300-400 mile night XC as well.

When I practice my night flying, I make it a point to land at airports other
than my home airport. After all, the big challenges during a night flight
have to do with the "instrument flight rules"-like nature of night flying,
which means getting away from a familiar location so that a) you practice
dealing with unfamiliar landmarks and lighting affecting your perception of
aircraft attitude, and b) you practice navigation in a way that really tests
your ability to use the instruments in the airplane effectively.

> I was going to do a short night XC a couple weeks ago and took off, got
> about 10 miles out and didn't 'feel' right so I returned to the pattern.
> It was probably just me, but it seemed like some strange noises from the
> plane that I don't notice during day flight.

As Tony alludes to, it does always seem like the airplane hints at problems
when it would be least convenient to have a problem. :) I think it's
important to keep in mind a couple of things:
-- conservative decision making is usually the best course of action, so
if you don't have confidence in the airplane, aborting the flight is fine
-- anxiety is generally not a great thing to have along with you in the
cockpit; repeatedly aborting flights when the airplane has been shown to be
reliable after an aborted flight may be a sign that one is being too
cautious, and should seek a way to become more comfortable with the
situation (night flying in this case). A good instructor may be helpful,
fly with him at night so he can reassure you that the things you hear going
"bump" in the night aren't anything to worry about.

> If I have a passenger, I'm not as concerned about flying XC at night. All
> of my night flights have been when there is close to a full moon so
> visibility isn't a factor.

If you DO have a passenger, you're not as concerned? That's the exact
opposite from the way many pilots feel. If you wrote what you meant to
write, could you elaborate on the thinking process behind that?

Personally, I try my best to treat every flight the same, with or without
passengers. But if there is a difference, I am slightly more lax with my
own safety than with others'.

Also, you may find it educational to make some night flights in more
challenging conditions. Overcast skies, lower visibility, little or no
moon, that sort of thing. Again, taking an instructor along if this isn't
something you're already reasonably comfortable with is a good idea.

Pete

[Peter Duniho]

"G. Burkhart" > wrote in message
news:0joad.218088$MQ5.166822@attbi_s52...
> A question to the group. Do you normally fly many night solo cross
> country flights? I have been going out to the local airport every couple
> months to do some night flying, but it's usually solo just around the
> patch to get night current so I can carry a passenger at night. The few
> times that I have done cross countries at night, I either have a passenger
> (usually pilot rated too) or an instructor (during training a few years
> ago).

"Normally"? Dunno about that...unfortunately, I have been not night current
more often than I have been current the last year or so. :)

But that said, when I *am* current, yes, most of my night flying is on
cross-countries. Usually not terribly long ones...often less than an hour
of flying, almost always less than two hours. But I've had my share of
300-400 mile night XC as well.

When I practice my night flying, I make it a point to land at airports other
than my home airport. After all, the big challenges during a night flight
have to do with the "instrument flight rules"-like nature of night flying,
which means getting away from a familiar location so that a) you practice
dealing with unfamiliar landmarks and lighting affecting your perception of
aircraft attitude, and b) you practice navigation in a way that really tests
your ability to use the instruments in the airplane effectively.

> I was going to do a short night XC a couple weeks ago and took off, got
> about 10 miles out and didn't 'feel' right so I returned to the pattern.
> It was probably just me, but it seemed like some strange noises from the
> plane that I don't notice during day flight.

As Tony alludes to, it does always seem like the airplane hints at problems
when it would be least convenient to have a problem. :) I think it's
important to keep in mind a couple of things:
-- conservative decision making is usually the best course of action, so
if you don't have confidence in the airplane, aborting the flight is fine
-- anxiety is generally not a great thing to have along with you in the
cockpit; repeatedly aborting flights when the airplane has been shown to be
reliable after an aborted flight may be a sign that one is being too
cautious, and should seek a way to become more comfortable with the
situation (night flying in this case). A good instructor may be helpful,
fly with him at night so he can reassure you that the things you hear going
"bump" in the night aren't anything to worry about.

> If I have a passenger, I'm not as concerned about flying XC at night. All
> of my night flights have been when there is close to a full moon so
> visibility isn't a factor.

If you DO have a passenger, you're not as concerned? That's the exact
opposite from the way many pilots feel. If you wrote what you meant to
write, could you elaborate on the thinking process behind that?

Personally, I try my best to treat every flight the same, with or without
passengers. But if there is a difference, I am slightly more lax with my
own safety than with others'.

Also, you may find it educational to make some night flights in more
challenging conditions. Overcast skies, lower visibility, little or no
moon, that sort of thing. Again, taking an instructor along if this isn't
something you're already reasonably comfortable with is a good idea.

Pete

[Larry Dighera]

On Mon, 11 Oct 2004 05:14:36 GMT, tony roberts >
wrote in <nospam-C33CC8.22180410102004@shawnews>::

>If you fly for light you won't hit
>anything - except the light! How dumb is that :)? There's a little tip
>that Machado won't tell you :)

Too bad JFK, Jr hadn't heard that. On hazy, moonless nights
instrument rating skills are useful.

[Larry Dighera]

On Mon, 11 Oct 2004 05:14:36 GMT, tony roberts >
wrote in <nospam-C33CC8.22180410102004@shawnews>::

>If you fly for light you won't hit
>anything - except the light! How dumb is that :)? There's a little tip
>that Machado won't tell you :)

Too bad JFK, Jr hadn't heard that. On hazy, moonless nights
instrument rating skills are useful.

[Nathan Young]

I fly night XCs on a regular basis. I love flying at night,
especially when the visibility is good. The air is smooth, traffic is
easy to spot, and view (both up and down) is incredible.

Night flying definitely involves more risk, so I adjust my flights
accordingly.

1. I fly higher, typically higher than 9k MSL. More time to sort out
problems, more distance to glide. In the midwest, this keeps me
within range of an airport almost all the time.
2. Don't fly in as strong of crosswinds. I find strong crosswinds
difficult to deal with at night. Fortunately, winds tend to calm at
night.
3. Choose my IFR flights very selectively. Although I don't have a
hard rule for this, I basically limit IFR to punching through a high,
thin layer.
4. Fuel flightplanning. Make sure your fuel stops are open when you
get there. Don't just look at airnav.com or the AOPA guide - calling
ahead is critical. I've been burned by this a few times and had to
spend the night somewhere I didn't want to, because the 24hr fuel
depot closed at 10pm.
5. Backups. You can't have enough for a night flight. Multiple
flashlights. Backup radio. Handheld GPS. Good batteries for all.
Also, make sure this stuff is out and accessible (preferably in the
passenger seat).


On Mon, 11 Oct 2004 04:51:08 GMT, "G. Burkhart" >
wrote:

> A question to the group. Do you normally fly many night solo cross
>country flights? I have been going out to the local airport every couple
>months to do some night flying, but it's usually solo just around the patch
>to get night current so I can carry a passenger at night. The few times that
>I have done cross countries at night, I either have a passenger (usually
>pilot rated too) or an instructor (during training a few years ago).
>
> I was going to do a short night XC a couple weeks ago and took off, got
>about 10 miles out and didn't 'feel' right so I returned to the pattern. It
>was probably just me, but it seemed like some strange noises from the plane
>that I don't notice during day flight. If I have a passenger, I'm not as
>concerned about flying XC at night. All of my night flights have been when
>there is close to a full moon so visibility isn't a factor.
>
>-Greg B.
>

[Nathan Young]

I fly night XCs on a regular basis. I love flying at night,
especially when the visibility is good. The air is smooth, traffic is
easy to spot, and view (both up and down) is incredible.

Night flying definitely involves more risk, so I adjust my flights
accordingly.

1. I fly higher, typically higher than 9k MSL. More time to sort out
problems, more distance to glide. In the midwest, this keeps me
within range of an airport almost all the time.
2. Don't fly in as strong of crosswinds. I find strong crosswinds
difficult to deal with at night. Fortunately, winds tend to calm at
night.
3. Choose my IFR flights very selectively. Although I don't have a
hard rule for this, I basically limit IFR to punching through a high,
thin layer.
4. Fuel flightplanning. Make sure your fuel stops are open when you
get there. Don't just look at airnav.com or the AOPA guide - calling
ahead is critical. I've been burned by this a few times and had to
spend the night somewhere I didn't want to, because the 24hr fuel
depot closed at 10pm.
5. Backups. You can't have enough for a night flight. Multiple
flashlights. Backup radio. Handheld GPS. Good batteries for all.
Also, make sure this stuff is out and accessible (preferably in the
passenger seat).


On Mon, 11 Oct 2004 04:51:08 GMT, "G. Burkhart" >
wrote:

> A question to the group. Do you normally fly many night solo cross
>country flights? I have been going out to the local airport every couple
>months to do some night flying, but it's usually solo just around the patch
>to get night current so I can carry a passenger at night. The few times that
>I have done cross countries at night, I either have a passenger (usually
>pilot rated too) or an instructor (during training a few years ago).
>
> I was going to do a short night XC a couple weeks ago and took off, got
>about 10 miles out and didn't 'feel' right so I returned to the pattern. It
>was probably just me, but it seemed like some strange noises from the plane
>that I don't notice during day flight. If I have a passenger, I'm not as
>concerned about flying XC at night. All of my night flights have been when
>there is close to a full moon so visibility isn't a factor.
>
>-Greg B.
>

[SelwayKid]

"G. Burkhart" > wrote in message news:<0joad.218088$MQ5.166822@attbi_s52>...
> A question to the group. Do you normally fly many night solo cross
> country flights? I have been going out to the local airport every couple
> months to do some night flying, but it's usually solo just around the patch
> to get night current so I can carry a passenger at night. The few times that
> I have done cross countries at night, I either have a passenger (usually
> pilot rated too) or an instructor (during training a few years ago).
>
> I was going to do a short night XC a couple weeks ago and took off, got
> about 10 miles out and didn't 'feel' right so I returned to the pattern. It
> was probably just me, but it seemed like some strange noises from the plane
> that I don't notice during day flight. If I have a passenger, I'm not as
> concerned about flying XC at night. All of my night flights have been when
> there is close to a full moon so visibility isn't a factor.
>
> -Greg B.
Greg
There is a common phenomena called "autorough" when you get outside
the comfort zone like over the high mountains, way out offshore with a
single engine, night when you can't see anything like between layers,
etc. I had a crash at night many years ago and it took several years
before my hands would not get wet while flying after dark. Now its
pretty ho humm.
I'm surprised you are more comfortable with a pax at night than solo
on a XC! Is it just having someone to keep you occupied? I'm just the
other way...I don't want anyone on board with me if I happen to go
down again. As I've often said, "I'll risk MY life, but not YOURS."
Stay in your own comfort zone and if you get nervous night flying,
keep it close to home. Why go out and stick it in the
woods/desert/mountains, etc, someplace at night? From curiosity, I
checked my logs and have just over 1500 night in a variety of aircraft
including night crop spraying with helicopter.
Ol Shy & Bashful

[SelwayKid]

"G. Burkhart" > wrote in message news:<0joad.218088$MQ5.166822@attbi_s52>...
> A question to the group. Do you normally fly many night solo cross
> country flights? I have been going out to the local airport every couple
> months to do some night flying, but it's usually solo just around the patch
> to get night current so I can carry a passenger at night. The few times that
> I have done cross countries at night, I either have a passenger (usually
> pilot rated too) or an instructor (during training a few years ago).
>
> I was going to do a short night XC a couple weeks ago and took off, got
> about 10 miles out and didn't 'feel' right so I returned to the pattern. It
> was probably just me, but it seemed like some strange noises from the plane
> that I don't notice during day flight. If I have a passenger, I'm not as
> concerned about flying XC at night. All of my night flights have been when
> there is close to a full moon so visibility isn't a factor.
>
> -Greg B.
Greg
There is a common phenomena called "autorough" when you get outside
the comfort zone like over the high mountains, way out offshore with a
single engine, night when you can't see anything like between layers,
etc. I had a crash at night many years ago and it took several years
before my hands would not get wet while flying after dark. Now its
pretty ho humm.
I'm surprised you are more comfortable with a pax at night than solo
on a XC! Is it just having someone to keep you occupied? I'm just the
other way...I don't want anyone on board with me if I happen to go
down again. As I've often said, "I'll risk MY life, but not YOURS."
Stay in your own comfort zone and if you get nervous night flying,
keep it close to home. Why go out and stick it in the
woods/desert/mountains, etc, someplace at night? From curiosity, I
checked my logs and have just over 1500 night in a variety of aircraft
including night crop spraying with helicopter.
Ol Shy & Bashful

[G. Burkhart]

"Peter Duniho" > wrote in message
...
> "G. Burkhart" > wrote in message
> news:0joad.218088$MQ5.166822@attbi_s52...
>> If I have a passenger, I'm not as concerned about flying XC at night. All
>> of my night flights have been when there is close to a full moon so
>> visibility isn't a factor.
>
> If you DO have a passenger, you're not as concerned? That's the exact
> opposite from the way many pilots feel. If you wrote what you meant to
> write, could you elaborate on the thinking process behind that?

I guess 'concerned' was the wrong word to use. I'm a little more 'relaxed'
(less anxiety) when I fly with a passenger day or night with an extra set of
eyes and ears in the cockpit.

[G. Burkhart]

"Peter Duniho" > wrote in message
...
> "G. Burkhart" > wrote in message
> news:0joad.218088$MQ5.166822@attbi_s52...
>> If I have a passenger, I'm not as concerned about flying XC at night. All
>> of my night flights have been when there is close to a full moon so
>> visibility isn't a factor.
>
> If you DO have a passenger, you're not as concerned? That's the exact
> opposite from the way many pilots feel. If you wrote what you meant to
> write, could you elaborate on the thinking process behind that?

I guess 'concerned' was the wrong word to use. I'm a little more 'relaxed'
(less anxiety) when I fly with a passenger day or night with an extra set of
eyes and ears in the cockpit.

[Nathan Young]

On 11 Oct 2004 06:22:57 -0700, (SelwayKid) wrote:

> From curiosity, I
>checked my logs and have just over 1500 night in a variety of aircraft
>including night crop spraying with helicopter.

How does this work? Moonlit night?

[Nathan Young]

On 11 Oct 2004 06:22:57 -0700, (SelwayKid) wrote:

> From curiosity, I
>checked my logs and have just over 1500 night in a variety of aircraft
>including night crop spraying with helicopter.

How does this work? Moonlit night?

[Dave S]

When I first got my ticket in 1999/2000, I racked up 200 hours in that
first year. I would say over 50 of them were night PIC.. a few were
non-solo.. but much of my "time building" happened at night because I
worked night shift, so if I had a night off, I went down to the airport
and did a short XC from SPX (now closed) to either CXO (Conroe) or BPT
(Beaumont). Always did flight following, always able to see the city
lights or highways as I went. Great confidence builder for stretching my
legs. I also got to play with "close" dew point spreads (less than 5 deg
F) and once or twice ended up turning a night flight into a daytime
return when it started socking in with ground fog (or the ASOS spread
started closing)..

Make a trip or two with an instructor to get the feel of some local
night destinations. Try to be considerate - pick a place thats not a
residential airpark.. dont make repetitive patterns.. but get comfy with
night ops. One other thing.. my wife (now ex) thought I was a flashlight
freak.. but.. I never carried less than 4 separate light sources with me
at night.. i have gone from maglites to chemlites to now LED's.. but I
always made sure I had plenty of backup to see the panel if electricals
didnt work right.

I also had a CFI have me run through a few "no landing light"
approaches/landings and a few "no runway light" approaches/landings.
Neither is something you would WANT to do regularly, but having done a
few takes some of the pressure off of being FORCED to do one unexpectedly.

Dave

G. Burkhart wrote:
> A question to the group. Do you normally fly many night solo cross
> country flights? I have been going out to the local airport every couple
> months to do some night flying, but it's usually solo just around the patch
> to get night current so I can carry a passenger at night. The few times that
> I have done cross countries at night, I either have a passenger (usually
> pilot rated too) or an instructor (during training a few years ago).
>
> I was going to do a short night XC a couple weeks ago and took off, got
> about 10 miles out and didn't 'feel' right so I returned to the pattern. It
> was probably just me, but it seemed like some strange noises from the plane
> that I don't notice during day flight. If I have a passenger, I'm not as
> concerned about flying XC at night. All of my night flights have been when
> there is close to a full moon so visibility isn't a factor.
>
> -Greg B.
>
>

[Dave S]

When I first got my ticket in 1999/2000, I racked up 200 hours in that
first year. I would say over 50 of them were night PIC.. a few were
non-solo.. but much of my "time building" happened at night because I
worked night shift, so if I had a night off, I went down to the airport
and did a short XC from SPX (now closed) to either CXO (Conroe) or BPT
(Beaumont). Always did flight following, always able to see the city
lights or highways as I went. Great confidence builder for stretching my
legs. I also got to play with "close" dew point spreads (less than 5 deg
F) and once or twice ended up turning a night flight into a daytime
return when it started socking in with ground fog (or the ASOS spread
started closing)..

Make a trip or two with an instructor to get the feel of some local
night destinations. Try to be considerate - pick a place thats not a
residential airpark.. dont make repetitive patterns.. but get comfy with
night ops. One other thing.. my wife (now ex) thought I was a flashlight
freak.. but.. I never carried less than 4 separate light sources with me
at night.. i have gone from maglites to chemlites to now LED's.. but I
always made sure I had plenty of backup to see the panel if electricals
didnt work right.

I also had a CFI have me run through a few "no landing light"
approaches/landings and a few "no runway light" approaches/landings.
Neither is something you would WANT to do regularly, but having done a
few takes some of the pressure off of being FORCED to do one unexpectedly.

Dave

G. Burkhart wrote:
> A question to the group. Do you normally fly many night solo cross
> country flights? I have been going out to the local airport every couple
> months to do some night flying, but it's usually solo just around the patch
> to get night current so I can carry a passenger at night. The few times that
> I have done cross countries at night, I either have a passenger (usually
> pilot rated too) or an instructor (during training a few years ago).
>
> I was going to do a short night XC a couple weeks ago and took off, got
> about 10 miles out and didn't 'feel' right so I returned to the pattern. It
> was probably just me, but it seemed like some strange noises from the plane
> that I don't notice during day flight. If I have a passenger, I'm not as
> concerned about flying XC at night. All of my night flights have been when
> there is close to a full moon so visibility isn't a factor.
>
> -Greg B.
>
>

[Marco Leon]

My examiner (who has close to 40,000 hours) gave me many pieces of advice
during my private checkride. The one he said would be hardest to follow was
to not fly at night until I was instrument rated or had an instrument rated
passenger on board. Many pilots (as you'll probably see from this newsgroup)
think that's being overly conservative and too restrictive but I was able to
follow that advice and still have over 60 of my 250 as night flight.

Reasons:
* Many times you will not see oncoming clouds at night until you're in it
* Haze--of the JFK Jr fame--is next to impossible to see at night
* Over bodies of water large enough to go over the horizon, it's as good as
IMC with no moon at night
* Also on a moonless night, sparsely populated areas are basically
feature-less except for some isolated lights. When these lights are on large
hills or mountains, they look awfully similar to stars.

I've experienced all of these at night so in retrospect (I've since acquired
my instrument rating) I can be thankful that I've chosen to follow it.

Marco Leon

"G. Burkhart" > wrote in message
news:0joad.218088$MQ5.166822@attbi_s52...
> A question to the group. Do you normally fly many night solo cross
> country flights? I have been going out to the local airport every couple
> months to do some night flying, but it's usually solo just around the
patch
> to get night current so I can carry a passenger at night. The few times
that
> I have done cross countries at night, I either have a passenger (usually
> pilot rated too) or an instructor (during training a few years ago).
>
> I was going to do a short night XC a couple weeks ago and took off,
got
> about 10 miles out and didn't 'feel' right so I returned to the pattern.
It
> was probably just me, but it seemed like some strange noises from the
plane
> that I don't notice during day flight. If I have a passenger, I'm not as
> concerned about flying XC at night. All of my night flights have been when
> there is close to a full moon so visibility isn't a factor.
>
> -Greg B.
>
>

[Marco Leon]

My examiner (who has close to 40,000 hours) gave me many pieces of advice
during my private checkride. The one he said would be hardest to follow was
to not fly at night until I was instrument rated or had an instrument rated
passenger on board. Many pilots (as you'll probably see from this newsgroup)
think that's being overly conservative and too restrictive but I was able to
follow that advice and still have over 60 of my 250 as night flight.

Reasons:
* Many times you will not see oncoming clouds at night until you're in it
* Haze--of the JFK Jr fame--is next to impossible to see at night
* Over bodies of water large enough to go over the horizon, it's as good as
IMC with no moon at night
* Also on a moonless night, sparsely populated areas are basically
feature-less except for some isolated lights. When these lights are on large
hills or mountains, they look awfully similar to stars.

I've experienced all of these at night so in retrospect (I've since acquired
my instrument rating) I can be thankful that I've chosen to follow it.

Marco Leon

"G. Burkhart" > wrote in message
news:0joad.218088$MQ5.166822@attbi_s52...
> A question to the group. Do you normally fly many night solo cross
> country flights? I have been going out to the local airport every couple
> months to do some night flying, but it's usually solo just around the
patch
> to get night current so I can carry a passenger at night. The few times
that
> I have done cross countries at night, I either have a passenger (usually
> pilot rated too) or an instructor (during training a few years ago).
>
> I was going to do a short night XC a couple weeks ago and took off,
got
> about 10 miles out and didn't 'feel' right so I returned to the pattern.
It
> was probably just me, but it seemed like some strange noises from the
plane
> that I don't notice during day flight. If I have a passenger, I'm not as
> concerned about flying XC at night. All of my night flights have been when
> there is close to a full moon so visibility isn't a factor.
>
> -Greg B.
>
>

[zatatime]

On Mon, 11 Oct 2004 04:51:08 GMT, "G. Burkhart" >
wrote:

> it seemed like some strange noises from the plane
>that I don't notice during day flight.


The same thing happens over water. :)

z

[zatatime]

On Mon, 11 Oct 2004 04:51:08 GMT, "G. Burkhart" >
wrote:

> it seemed like some strange noises from the plane
>that I don't notice during day flight.


The same thing happens over water. :)

z

[Jack Allison]

Hey Greg...I've managed a few night x-c flights per year...maybe 3-4.
I'm required to maintain night currency by my FBO (and I would do so
even if there was no such requirement). I normally log a night flight
to another local airport about once every two months. If I went any
longer, I probably wouldn't go on a night x-c until I'd had a chance to
log some local night time.

Re: turning back when it didn't "feel" right, I don't think you can
argue with such a decision.


--
Jack Allison
PP-ASEL, IA Student

"When once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the Earth
with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been, and there
you will always long to return"
- Leonardo Da Vinci

(Remove the obvious from address to reply via e-mail)

[Jack Allison]

Hey Greg...I've managed a few night x-c flights per year...maybe 3-4.
I'm required to maintain night currency by my FBO (and I would do so
even if there was no such requirement). I normally log a night flight
to another local airport about once every two months. If I went any
longer, I probably wouldn't go on a night x-c until I'd had a chance to
log some local night time.

Re: turning back when it didn't "feel" right, I don't think you can
argue with such a decision.


--
Jack Allison
PP-ASEL, IA Student

"When once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the Earth
with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been, and there
you will always long to return"
- Leonardo Da Vinci

(Remove the obvious from address to reply via e-mail)

[Nigel T Peart]

I only went for my night rating to get some IF knowledge. I don't consider
myself
rated for intentional night flying unless i'm not going anywhere. By that I
mean
i'll do circuits/landing practice, and drop skydivers overhead the departure
field,
but thats about it.
Night Cross-country actually scares me, if you loose the donkey, you're
generally
a bit ph**ked.
Overly paranoid? Maybe!!!

[Nigel T Peart]

I only went for my night rating to get some IF knowledge. I don't consider
myself
rated for intentional night flying unless i'm not going anywhere. By that I
mean
i'll do circuits/landing practice, and drop skydivers overhead the departure
field,
but thats about it.
Night Cross-country actually scares me, if you loose the donkey, you're
generally
a bit ph**ked.
Overly paranoid? Maybe!!!

[Teacherjh]

I do a lot of night flying, but many times I take off during the day and land
at night. So, I still have to do my three every three, because one needs night
takeoffs too.

Jose

--
(for Email, make the obvious changes in my address)

[Teacherjh]

I do a lot of night flying, but many times I take off during the day and land
at night. So, I still have to do my three every three, because one needs night
takeoffs too.

Jose

--
(for Email, make the obvious changes in my address)

[Kevin]

To Tony Roberts: I noticed from your siggy that you have the VFR-OTT
rating. Just curious.. do you ever use that thing?

Kevin
oh.. um... PP-AMEL/I/Night/some other stuff I forget

[Kevin]

To Tony Roberts: I noticed from your siggy that you have the VFR-OTT
rating. Just curious.. do you ever use that thing?

Kevin
oh.. um... PP-AMEL/I/Night/some other stuff I forget

[George Hamilton]

I live in Virginia Beach and own a PA28 140. Many times I would fly
up to Atlantic City around noon and fly back at night, a trip of about
two hours.
Night flying has some pluses: very smooth air and easy to find
airports and cities with the lights. Only emergency I have
experienced was loss of radio speaker. Had to dig around for my
earphones. Keep one flashlight between your legs and at least another
in the glove box and near by. You do need your artificial horizon at
times. I flew into a cloud one night and came to know the true
meaning of black out. Hey, flying is dangerous. Get used to it.

[George Hamilton]

I live in Virginia Beach and own a PA28 140. Many times I would fly
up to Atlantic City around noon and fly back at night, a trip of about
two hours.
Night flying has some pluses: very smooth air and easy to find
airports and cities with the lights. Only emergency I have
experienced was loss of radio speaker. Had to dig around for my
earphones. Keep one flashlight between your legs and at least another
in the glove box and near by. You do need your artificial horizon at
times. I flew into a cloud one night and came to know the true
meaning of black out. Hey, flying is dangerous. Get used to it.

[john smith]

Try electroluminescent "rope" or Krill lights. Won't diminish your night
vision.

Dave S wrote:
> One other thing.. my wife (now ex) thought I was a flashlight
> freak.. but.. I never carried less than 4 separate light sources with me
> at night.. i have gone from maglites to chemlites to now LED's.. but I
> always made sure I had plenty of backup to see the panel if electricals
> didnt work right.

[john smith]

Try electroluminescent "rope" or Krill lights. Won't diminish your night
vision.

Dave S wrote:
> One other thing.. my wife (now ex) thought I was a flashlight
> freak.. but.. I never carried less than 4 separate light sources with me
> at night.. i have gone from maglites to chemlites to now LED's.. but I
> always made sure I had plenty of backup to see the panel if electricals
> didnt work right.

[john smith]

I do my IFR currency flights at night.

[john smith]

I do my IFR currency flights at night.

[tony roberts]

> To Tony Roberts: I noticed from your siggy that you have the VFR-OTT
> rating. Just curious.. do you ever use that thing?

Hi Kevin

I use it lots. Because I live surrounded by mountains my way home is
often blocked by cloud, so I file VFR-OTT, fly over the cloud on victor
airways, then cancel the VFR-OTT and file VFR.
I was suprised to learn that less than 5% of Canadian Pilots hold the
rating - it's a good one to have, and even if I didn't use it, it would
be worth having just for the extra instrument flying instruction that it
gave me.

--

Tony Roberts
PP-ASEL
VFR OTT
Night
Cessna 172H C-GICE

[tony roberts]

> To Tony Roberts: I noticed from your siggy that you have the VFR-OTT
> rating. Just curious.. do you ever use that thing?

Hi Kevin

I use it lots. Because I live surrounded by mountains my way home is
often blocked by cloud, so I file VFR-OTT, fly over the cloud on victor
airways, then cancel the VFR-OTT and file VFR.
I was suprised to learn that less than 5% of Canadian Pilots hold the
rating - it's a good one to have, and even if I didn't use it, it would
be worth having just for the extra instrument flying instruction that it
gave me.

--

Tony Roberts
PP-ASEL
VFR OTT
Night
Cessna 172H C-GICE

[Dave S]

Already have an EL wand that hangs from my neck on a lanyard. the rest
are LED Pelicans that can mount to my headsets. My light collection is
always a work in progress and constantly evolving.

Dave

john smith wrote:
> Try electroluminescent "rope" or Krill lights. Won't diminish your night
> vision.
>
> Dave S wrote:
>
>> One other thing.. my wife (now ex) thought I was a flashlight freak..
>> but.. I never carried less than 4 separate light sources with me at
>> night.. i have gone from maglites to chemlites to now LED's.. but I
>> always made sure I had plenty of backup to see the panel if
>> electricals didnt work right.
>
>

[Dave S]

Already have an EL wand that hangs from my neck on a lanyard. the rest
are LED Pelicans that can mount to my headsets. My light collection is
always a work in progress and constantly evolving.

Dave

john smith wrote:
> Try electroluminescent "rope" or Krill lights. Won't diminish your night
> vision.
>
> Dave S wrote:
>
>> One other thing.. my wife (now ex) thought I was a flashlight freak..
>> but.. I never carried less than 4 separate light sources with me at
>> night.. i have gone from maglites to chemlites to now LED's.. but I
>> always made sure I had plenty of backup to see the panel if
>> electricals didnt work right.
>
>

[G.R. Patterson III]

"G. Burkhart" wrote:
>
> A question to the group. Do you normally fly many night solo cross
> country flights?

I used to. I haven't had reason to do so in years. In fact, I haven't flown at night
at all in over a year.

George Patterson
If a man gets into a fight 3,000 miles away from home, he *had* to have
been looking for it.

[G.R. Patterson III]

"G. Burkhart" wrote:
>
> A question to the group. Do you normally fly many night solo cross
> country flights?

I used to. I haven't had reason to do so in years. In fact, I haven't flown at night
at all in over a year.

George Patterson
If a man gets into a fight 3,000 miles away from home, he *had* to have
been looking for it.

[tony roberts]

> Too bad JFK, Jr hadn't heard that. On hazy, moonless nights
> instrument rating skills are useful.

Roger that - and I use mine every time I fly at night.
If what I heard is true though, JFK was clocked descending at 5000 fpm.
It would have taken more than instrument skills to recover that - sounds
as though he lost his empennage to me.
And it was at very least the third time that he had been discovered
flying IMC without the required training.
It's a tough lesson - learning that you are not invincible.
Or - was his aircraft sabotaged?
Both explanations are highly probable . . .
Which is it . . .
the plot thickens . . .

And who is next . . .???

Tony
--

Tony Roberts
PP-ASEL
VFR OTT
Night

[tony roberts]

> Too bad JFK, Jr hadn't heard that. On hazy, moonless nights
> instrument rating skills are useful.

Roger that - and I use mine every time I fly at night.
If what I heard is true though, JFK was clocked descending at 5000 fpm.
It would have taken more than instrument skills to recover that - sounds
as though he lost his empennage to me.
And it was at very least the third time that he had been discovered
flying IMC without the required training.
It's a tough lesson - learning that you are not invincible.
Or - was his aircraft sabotaged?
Both explanations are highly probable . . .
Which is it . . .
the plot thickens . . .

And who is next . . .???

Tony
--

Tony Roberts
PP-ASEL
VFR OTT
Night

[Morgans]

"tony roberts" > wrote

JFK was clocked descending at 5000 fpm.
> It would have taken more than instrument skills to recover that - sounds
> as though he lost his empennage to me.

> Tony

Fishing, or do you believe that, and why?
--
Jim in NC

Elvis is Alive!!!!!
or not


---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.774 / Virus Database: 521 - Release Date: 10/8/2004

[Morgans]

"tony roberts" > wrote

JFK was clocked descending at 5000 fpm.
> It would have taken more than instrument skills to recover that - sounds
> as though he lost his empennage to me.

> Tony

Fishing, or do you believe that, and why?
--
Jim in NC

Elvis is Alive!!!!!
or not


---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.774 / Virus Database: 521 - Release Date: 10/8/2004

[Larry Dighera]

On Tue, 12 Oct 2004 04:06:37 GMT, tony roberts >
wrote in <nospam-B9EC32.21100711102004@shawnews>::

>> Too bad JFK, Jr hadn't heard that. On hazy, moonless nights
>> instrument rating skills are useful.
>
>Roger that - and I use mine every time I fly at night.
>If what I heard is true though, JFK was clocked descending at 5000 fpm.
>It would have taken more than instrument skills to recover that

Ostensibly, the rapid rate of descent was the result of a grave yard
spiral. Perhaps instrument skills would have kept him from entering
it in the first place.

> - sounds as though he lost his empennage to me.

You do possess remarkable powers of deduction. I don't recall that
being mentioned in the NTSB report. Upon what do you base that
opinion?

>And it was at very least the third time that he had been discovered
>flying IMC without the required training.

That is also a new bit of news. Discovered by whom? Given that most
of his flight hours were accumulated with an instructor next to him,
it may have been true, but not a violation. Where did you hear that?

>It's a tough lesson - learning that you are not invincible.
>Or

Nursing a broken leg from an ultralight crash should have given him a
clue.

>- was his aircraft sabotaged?

Doubtful. He just didn't fly the flight he had planned due to delays
caused by automobile traffic and his sister-in-law. That can happen
to any pilot. Had he departed earlier, there might have been a more
visible horizon.

>Both explanations are highly probable . . .

None of the speculative causes you present are plausible nor necessary
to explain the loss of control, IMO.

Maritime weather can change a lot in 10 minute; his WX briefing was
over two hours old by the time he finally departed.

>Which is it . . .

Likely, it was a loss of visual ground reference combined with
inexperience...

>the plot thickens . . .
>
>And who is next . . .???

With your powers of clairvoyance, you should be able to provide an
answer to that question. :-)

[Larry Dighera]

On Tue, 12 Oct 2004 04:06:37 GMT, tony roberts >
wrote in <nospam-B9EC32.21100711102004@shawnews>::

>> Too bad JFK, Jr hadn't heard that. On hazy, moonless nights
>> instrument rating skills are useful.
>
>Roger that - and I use mine every time I fly at night.
>If what I heard is true though, JFK was clocked descending at 5000 fpm.
>It would have taken more than instrument skills to recover that

Ostensibly, the rapid rate of descent was the result of a grave yard
spiral. Perhaps instrument skills would have kept him from entering
it in the first place.

> - sounds as though he lost his empennage to me.

You do possess remarkable powers of deduction. I don't recall that
being mentioned in the NTSB report. Upon what do you base that
opinion?

>And it was at very least the third time that he had been discovered
>flying IMC without the required training.

That is also a new bit of news. Discovered by whom? Given that most
of his flight hours were accumulated with an instructor next to him,
it may have been true, but not a violation. Where did you hear that?

>It's a tough lesson - learning that you are not invincible.
>Or

Nursing a broken leg from an ultralight crash should have given him a
clue.

>- was his aircraft sabotaged?

Doubtful. He just didn't fly the flight he had planned due to delays
caused by automobile traffic and his sister-in-law. That can happen
to any pilot. Had he departed earlier, there might have been a more
visible horizon.

>Both explanations are highly probable . . .

None of the speculative causes you present are plausible nor necessary
to explain the loss of control, IMO.

Maritime weather can change a lot in 10 minute; his WX briefing was
over two hours old by the time he finally departed.

>Which is it . . .

Likely, it was a loss of visual ground reference combined with
inexperience...

>the plot thickens . . .
>
>And who is next . . .???

With your powers of clairvoyance, you should be able to provide an
answer to that question. :-)

[SelwayKid]

Nathan Young > wrote in message >...
> On 11 Oct 2004 06:22:57 -0700, (SelwayKid) wrote:
>
> > From curiosity, I
> >checked my logs and have just over 1500 night in a variety of aircraft
> >including night crop spraying with helicopter.
>
> How does this work? Moonlit night?
Nathan
No...we have lights for it. Depending on the aircraft they may be
anything from 500W to 1200W. I do recall one night with a full moon
and as I was making my turnaround in helicopter, I spotted a shadow
passing right in front of me on the ground and it scared the sh**it
out of me until I realized it was my own shadow from the moon!!
Lots of funny stories about night flying in my logbook.
Selway Kid

[SelwayKid]

Nathan Young > wrote in message >...
> On 11 Oct 2004 06:22:57 -0700, (SelwayKid) wrote:
>
> > From curiosity, I
> >checked my logs and have just over 1500 night in a variety of aircraft
> >including night crop spraying with helicopter.
>
> How does this work? Moonlit night?
Nathan
No...we have lights for it. Depending on the aircraft they may be
anything from 500W to 1200W. I do recall one night with a full moon
and as I was making my turnaround in helicopter, I spotted a shadow
passing right in front of me on the ground and it scared the sh**it
out of me until I realized it was my own shadow from the moon!!
Lots of funny stories about night flying in my logbook.
Selway Kid

[Jack Allison]

Teacherjh wrote:
> So, I still have to do my three every three, because one needs night
> takeoffs too.

Yep, gives you the chance to practice turning the runway lights on
*before* you takeoff. Don't ask how I know this... :-)

--
Jack Allison
PP-ASEL, IA Student

"When once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the Earth
with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been, and there
you will always long to return"
- Leonardo Da Vinci

(Remove the obvious from address to reply via e-mail)

[Jack Allison]

Teacherjh wrote:
> So, I still have to do my three every three, because one needs night
> takeoffs too.

Yep, gives you the chance to practice turning the runway lights on
*before* you takeoff. Don't ask how I know this... :-)

--
Jack Allison
PP-ASEL, IA Student

"When once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the Earth
with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been, and there
you will always long to return"
- Leonardo Da Vinci

(Remove the obvious from address to reply via e-mail)

[SelwayKid]

(SelwayKid) wrote in message >...
> Nathan Young > wrote in message >...
> > On 11 Oct 2004 06:22:57 -0700, (SelwayKid) wrote:
> >
> > > From curiosity, I
> > >checked my logs and have just over 1500 night in a variety of aircraft
> > >including night crop spraying with helicopter.

It brings to mind one night while spraying and during a spray run at
about 3'acl (above crop level) and I had a total electrical failure.
All my lights went out and of course I was headed towards some 80'
main power lines! I did a pretty strong pull-up and turn to avoid
getting into them, then had to circle my loading area until my loader
realized I was without lights and turned on all the truck lights so I
could get it on the ground next to him.
Ah the good old days...! <ggg>
> > How does this work? Moonlit night?
> Nathan
> No...we have lights for it. Depending on the aircraft they may be
> anything from 500W to 1200W. I do recall one night with a full moon
> and as I was making my turnaround in helicopter, I spotted a shadow
> passing right in front of me on the ground and it scared the sh**it
> out of me until I realized it was my own shadow from the moon!!
> Lots of funny stories about night flying in my logbook.
> Selway Kid