Student night solo?

[Peter MacPherson]

I'm a CFI and was curious how many CFI's sign their students off for
flying solo at night. I personally don't feel comfortable doing it.

Thanks,
Pete

[G. Burkhart]

"Peter MacPherson" > wrote in message
news:9kQad.459163$8_6.292132@attbi_s04...
> I'm a CFI and was curious how many CFI's sign their students off for
> flying solo at night. I personally don't feel comfortable doing it.

During my training, all student night flights were dual. The aircraft owners
in that area had that stipulated in the renter's agreement. Other things in
the rental restrictions were no grass strips and no spins.

[G. Burkhart]

"Peter MacPherson" > wrote in message
news:9kQad.459163$8_6.292132@attbi_s04...
> I'm a CFI and was curious how many CFI's sign their students off for
> flying solo at night. I personally don't feel comfortable doing it.

During my training, all student night flights were dual. The aircraft owners
in that area had that stipulated in the renter's agreement. Other things in
the rental restrictions were no grass strips and no spins.

[G.R. Patterson III]

Peter MacPherson wrote:
>
> I'm a CFI and was curious how many CFI's sign their students off for
> flying solo at night. I personally don't feel comfortable doing it.

My CFI did not do so when I was training. My first solo night flight took place after
I got my PPC.

George Patterson
If a man gets into a fight 3,000 miles away from home, he *had* to have
been looking for it.

[G.R. Patterson III]

Peter MacPherson wrote:
>
> I'm a CFI and was curious how many CFI's sign their students off for
> flying solo at night. I personally don't feel comfortable doing it.

My CFI did not do so when I was training. My first solo night flight took place after
I got my PPC.

George Patterson
If a man gets into a fight 3,000 miles away from home, he *had* to have
been looking for it.

[Dave S]

My comment would be... how much instruction and experience did the
student get in night operations? Just the bare minimum? How well does
the student perform with minimal direct supervision?

My brother in law actually had some student night solo time, but that
was a byproduct of his training.. he worked long days, and so much of
his training was evening and dusk. Over 1/3rd of his hours were at night
by the time he took his checkride. His DE initially thought there was an
error on his form 8710.

My answer as a non-CFI is.. I would expect the number of CFI's who
actually endorse a student for night solo to be VERY low.. simply as a
result of the environment in which we instruct and train.

Dave

Peter MacPherson wrote:
> I'm a CFI and was curious how many CFI's sign their students off for
> flying solo at night. I personally don't feel comfortable doing it.
>
> Thanks,
> Pete
>
>

[Dave S]

My comment would be... how much instruction and experience did the
student get in night operations? Just the bare minimum? How well does
the student perform with minimal direct supervision?

My brother in law actually had some student night solo time, but that
was a byproduct of his training.. he worked long days, and so much of
his training was evening and dusk. Over 1/3rd of his hours were at night
by the time he took his checkride. His DE initially thought there was an
error on his form 8710.

My answer as a non-CFI is.. I would expect the number of CFI's who
actually endorse a student for night solo to be VERY low.. simply as a
result of the environment in which we instruct and train.

Dave

Peter MacPherson wrote:
> I'm a CFI and was curious how many CFI's sign their students off for
> flying solo at night. I personally don't feel comfortable doing it.
>
> Thanks,
> Pete
>
>

[Roger Halstead]

On Tue, 12 Oct 2004 13:16:35 GMT, "G. Burkhart" >
wrote:

>"Peter MacPherson" > wrote in message
>news:9kQad.459163$8_6.292132@attbi_s04...
>> I'm a CFI and was curious how many CFI's sign their students off for
>> flying solo at night. I personally don't feel comfortable doing it.
>
>During my training, all student night flights were dual. The aircraft owners
>in that area had that stipulated in the renter's agreement. Other things in
>the rental restrictions were no grass strips and no spins.
>
I think I had around 4 hours night, but it was all dual including one
cross country.

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

[Roger Halstead]

On Tue, 12 Oct 2004 13:16:35 GMT, "G. Burkhart" >
wrote:

>"Peter MacPherson" > wrote in message
>news:9kQad.459163$8_6.292132@attbi_s04...
>> I'm a CFI and was curious how many CFI's sign their students off for
>> flying solo at night. I personally don't feel comfortable doing it.
>
>During my training, all student night flights were dual. The aircraft owners
>in that area had that stipulated in the renter's agreement. Other things in
>the rental restrictions were no grass strips and no spins.
>
I think I had around 4 hours night, but it was all dual including one
cross country.

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

[Jack Allison]

My FBO didn't allow solo night flight so I wasn't signed off for it.
IMHO, a good thing.


--
Jack Allison
PP-ASEL, IA Student

"When once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the Earth
with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been, and there
you will always long to return"
- Leonardo Da Vinci

(Remove the obvious from address to reply via e-mail)

[Jack Allison]

My FBO didn't allow solo night flight so I wasn't signed off for it.
IMHO, a good thing.


--
Jack Allison
PP-ASEL, IA Student

"When once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the Earth
with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been, and there
you will always long to return"
- Leonardo Da Vinci

(Remove the obvious from address to reply via e-mail)

[[email protected]]

In rec.aviation.student Peter MacPherson > wrote:
> I'm a CFI and was curious how many CFI's sign their students off for
> flying solo at night. I personally don't feel comfortable doing it.

> Thanks,
> Pete

Uncomfortable, then don't sign them off! Most students truly do not
have enough night experience to be flying solo at night. I think the
good judgement kicks in at about 10 hours of night time.

Conversely, about 1/2 my private training time was night, so I got
signed off for solo night. :-) The DPE re-checked the numbers on my
8710, and they agreed with my logbook, and I have been night current
and comfortable at night ever since (1975).

Best regards,

Jer/ "Flight instruction and mountain flying are my vocation!" Eberhard

--
Jer/ (Slash) Eberhard, Mountain Flying Aviation, LTD, Ft Collins, CO
CELL 970 231-6325 EMAIL jer'at'frii.com WEB http://users.frii.com/jer/
C-206 N9513G, CFII Airplane&Glider, FAA-DEN Aviation Safety Counselor
CAP-CO Mission&Aircraft CheckPilot, BM218 HAM N0FZD, 218 Young Eagles!

[[email protected]]

In rec.aviation.student Peter MacPherson > wrote:
> I'm a CFI and was curious how many CFI's sign their students off for
> flying solo at night. I personally don't feel comfortable doing it.

> Thanks,
> Pete

Uncomfortable, then don't sign them off! Most students truly do not
have enough night experience to be flying solo at night. I think the
good judgement kicks in at about 10 hours of night time.

Conversely, about 1/2 my private training time was night, so I got
signed off for solo night. :-) The DPE re-checked the numbers on my
8710, and they agreed with my logbook, and I have been night current
and comfortable at night ever since (1975).

Best regards,

Jer/ "Flight instruction and mountain flying are my vocation!" Eberhard

--
Jer/ (Slash) Eberhard, Mountain Flying Aviation, LTD, Ft Collins, CO
CELL 970 231-6325 EMAIL jer'at'frii.com WEB http://users.frii.com/jer/
C-206 N9513G, CFII Airplane&Glider, FAA-DEN Aviation Safety Counselor
CAP-CO Mission&Aircraft CheckPilot, BM218 HAM N0FZD, 218 Young Eagles!

[Michael]

Dave S > wrote
> My answer as a non-CFI is.. I would expect the number of CFI's who
> actually endorse a student for night solo to be VERY low.. simply as a
> result of the environment in which we instruct and train.

My answer as a CFI is - if not now, when? The student will have night
privileges when he passes the checkride. Therefore, if you don't feel
comfortable having him fly solo at night on your ticket, how can you
send him to the checkride?

My policy is that the student gets a night solo endorsement when he
completes his night and instrument training. If I don't feel like he
can fly at night and maintain an adequate level of safety and
proficiency, then we do more than the mandated 3 hour minimum (this
has happened). If he doesn't like it, he can find another instructor
(this has not).

Michael

[Michael]

Dave S > wrote
> My answer as a non-CFI is.. I would expect the number of CFI's who
> actually endorse a student for night solo to be VERY low.. simply as a
> result of the environment in which we instruct and train.

My answer as a CFI is - if not now, when? The student will have night
privileges when he passes the checkride. Therefore, if you don't feel
comfortable having him fly solo at night on your ticket, how can you
send him to the checkride?

My policy is that the student gets a night solo endorsement when he
completes his night and instrument training. If I don't feel like he
can fly at night and maintain an adequate level of safety and
proficiency, then we do more than the mandated 3 hour minimum (this
has happened). If he doesn't like it, he can find another instructor
(this has not).

Michael

[Peter Duniho]

"Michael" > wrote in message
om...
> My answer as a CFI is - if not now, when? The student will have night
> privileges when he passes the checkride. Therefore, if you don't feel
> comfortable having him fly solo at night on your ticket, how can you
> send him to the checkride?

The student will have passenger carrying privileges when he passes the
checkride. Therefore, if you don't feel comfortable having him fly with
passengers on your ticket, how can you send him to the checkride?

Seriously...the above analogy is only a little facetious. The truth is
that, once your student has passed his checkride, he will be legal to do a
whole slew of things never covered in primary training. The only
alternative to that situation is to make the primary training take orders of
magnitude longer than it does now.

Some things can be explored by the pilot on his own, gradually expanding his
envelope of flight skills, others really will require additional training
time with a qualified instructor before the student ought to try them. But
in all cases, they are examples of things that the student is not going to
be approved to do by his instructor before the checkride, nor should he be,
even though the FAA will consider him legal to attempt after the checkride.

I think it's great that you are able to train your students to solo
proficiency in night flight during the course of the student's training (you
don't say how often you are able to do this in the minimum three hours), but
the argument "he'll be able to do it after the checkride, so why not
before?" is just plain silly. It carries no logical weight whatsoever.

Pete

[Peter Duniho]

"Michael" > wrote in message
om...
> My answer as a CFI is - if not now, when? The student will have night
> privileges when he passes the checkride. Therefore, if you don't feel
> comfortable having him fly solo at night on your ticket, how can you
> send him to the checkride?

The student will have passenger carrying privileges when he passes the
checkride. Therefore, if you don't feel comfortable having him fly with
passengers on your ticket, how can you send him to the checkride?

Seriously...the above analogy is only a little facetious. The truth is
that, once your student has passed his checkride, he will be legal to do a
whole slew of things never covered in primary training. The only
alternative to that situation is to make the primary training take orders of
magnitude longer than it does now.

Some things can be explored by the pilot on his own, gradually expanding his
envelope of flight skills, others really will require additional training
time with a qualified instructor before the student ought to try them. But
in all cases, they are examples of things that the student is not going to
be approved to do by his instructor before the checkride, nor should he be,
even though the FAA will consider him legal to attempt after the checkride.

I think it's great that you are able to train your students to solo
proficiency in night flight during the course of the student's training (you
don't say how often you are able to do this in the minimum three hours), but
the argument "he'll be able to do it after the checkride, so why not
before?" is just plain silly. It carries no logical weight whatsoever.

Pete

[Robert Chambers]

One of the first things I did after getting my private ticket was
schedule a couple of flights with my CFI at night to get that level of
comfort I wanted before I attempted it all on my own or with passengers.

Sort of made pale by the stuff I did training for my instrument ticket,
partial panel, at night with simulated electrical failure.. that's about
as bad as it gets, the fact that I didn't just throw up my arms in
despair was a testament to the training I had recieved prior.

Robert

Peter Duniho wrote:

> "Michael" > wrote in message
> om...
>
>>My answer as a CFI is - if not now, when? The student will have night
>>privileges when he passes the checkride. Therefore, if you don't feel
>>comfortable having him fly solo at night on your ticket, how can you
>>send him to the checkride?
>
>
> The student will have passenger carrying privileges when he passes the
> checkride. Therefore, if you don't feel comfortable having him fly with
> passengers on your ticket, how can you send him to the checkride?
>
> Seriously...the above analogy is only a little facetious. The truth is
> that, once your student has passed his checkride, he will be legal to do a
> whole slew of things never covered in primary training. The only
> alternative to that situation is to make the primary training take orders of
> magnitude longer than it does now.
>
> Some things can be explored by the pilot on his own, gradually expanding his
> envelope of flight skills, others really will require additional training
> time with a qualified instructor before the student ought to try them. But
> in all cases, they are examples of things that the student is not going to
> be approved to do by his instructor before the checkride, nor should he be,
> even though the FAA will consider him legal to attempt after the checkride.
>
> I think it's great that you are able to train your students to solo
> proficiency in night flight during the course of the student's training (you
> don't say how often you are able to do this in the minimum three hours), but
> the argument "he'll be able to do it after the checkride, so why not
> before?" is just plain silly. It carries no logical weight whatsoever.
>
> Pete
>
>

[Robert Chambers]

One of the first things I did after getting my private ticket was
schedule a couple of flights with my CFI at night to get that level of
comfort I wanted before I attempted it all on my own or with passengers.

Sort of made pale by the stuff I did training for my instrument ticket,
partial panel, at night with simulated electrical failure.. that's about
as bad as it gets, the fact that I didn't just throw up my arms in
despair was a testament to the training I had recieved prior.

Robert

Peter Duniho wrote:

> "Michael" > wrote in message
> om...
>
>>My answer as a CFI is - if not now, when? The student will have night
>>privileges when he passes the checkride. Therefore, if you don't feel
>>comfortable having him fly solo at night on your ticket, how can you
>>send him to the checkride?
>
>
> The student will have passenger carrying privileges when he passes the
> checkride. Therefore, if you don't feel comfortable having him fly with
> passengers on your ticket, how can you send him to the checkride?
>
> Seriously...the above analogy is only a little facetious. The truth is
> that, once your student has passed his checkride, he will be legal to do a
> whole slew of things never covered in primary training. The only
> alternative to that situation is to make the primary training take orders of
> magnitude longer than it does now.
>
> Some things can be explored by the pilot on his own, gradually expanding his
> envelope of flight skills, others really will require additional training
> time with a qualified instructor before the student ought to try them. But
> in all cases, they are examples of things that the student is not going to
> be approved to do by his instructor before the checkride, nor should he be,
> even though the FAA will consider him legal to attempt after the checkride.
>
> I think it's great that you are able to train your students to solo
> proficiency in night flight during the course of the student's training (you
> don't say how often you are able to do this in the minimum three hours), but
> the argument "he'll be able to do it after the checkride, so why not
> before?" is just plain silly. It carries no logical weight whatsoever.
>
> Pete
>
>

[Robert M. Gary]

"Peter MacPherson" > wrote in message news:<9kQad.459163$8_6.292132@attbi_s04>...
> I'm a CFI and was curious how many CFI's sign their students off for
> flying solo at night. I personally don't feel comfortable doing it.
>
> Thanks,
> Pete

Back when I was a student I remember several of my cross countries
being done at night (in a tailwheel with no landing light no less).
However, the flight school I work with now prohibits it. I would say
the night training we give toward the private is pretty minimum
(especially for the student that has over a year between checkride and
night flying). I would expect students to come back after their
private and ask for more night training before renting at night.

-Robert, CFI

[Robert M. Gary]

(Michael) wrote in message >...
> Dave S > wrote
> > My answer as a non-CFI is.. I would expect the number of CFI's who
> > actually endorse a student for night solo to be VERY low.. simply as a
> > result of the environment in which we instruct and train.
>
> My answer as a CFI is - if not now, when? The student will have night
> privileges when he passes the checkride. Therefore, if you don't feel
> comfortable having him fly solo at night on your ticket, how can you
> send him to the checkride?

I don't feel comfortable signing my students off for cross countries
from San Francisco to New York either but their private priv will
allow it. I expect students will ask for extra training in certain
areas as they grown in their private. Most don't do any night flying
for the first year or so after their private so anything given would
be mostly lost anyway.

-Robert, CFI

[NW_PILOT]

"Peter MacPherson" > wrote in message
news:9kQad.459163$8_6.292132@attbi_s04...
> I'm a CFI and was curious how many CFI's sign their students off for
> flying solo at night. I personally don't feel comfortable doing it.
>
> Thanks,
> Pete
>
>

When I was a student after miss judging winds aloft and winds coming down
the gorge and squeaking in with 15 min before actual night. I was thinking
my instructor knew it was going to happen becuse he approved the solo X-C.
Maybe I should not stopped and ate at the cafe at my destination but I was
hungry! I landed parked the airplane and debriefed. He said 1 more night
flight under the hood and we will make it a X-C then 8 unassisted stop and
goes and he would sign me off for night solo & checkride and make my
appointment for checkride. The next night after the flight, I was informed
that airplanes would be gone the next day and recived no sign off's as there
were no airplanes to fly. At the debrief the instructors logic was If he
thought I was ready to take the checkride and exercise the privileges of
private pilot after the check ride he wanted himself to be comfortable with
me flying at night and have some night time solo practice. It made since to
me.

[NW_PILOT]

"Michael" > wrote in message
om...
> Dave S > wrote
> > My answer as a non-CFI is.. I would expect the number of CFI's who
> > actually endorse a student for night solo to be VERY low.. simply as a
> > result of the environment in which we instruct and train.
>
> My answer as a CFI is - if not now, when? The student will have night
> privileges when he passes the checkride. Therefore, if you don't feel
> comfortable having him fly solo at night on your ticket, how can you
> send him to the checkride?
>
> My policy is that the student gets a night solo endorsement when he
> completes his night and instrument training. If I don't feel like he
> can fly at night and maintain an adequate level of safety and
> proficiency, then we do more than the mandated 3 hour minimum (this
> has happened). If he doesn't like it, he can find another instructor
> (this has not).
>
> Michael

Michael, I like your attitude you must be a excellent instructor you kind of
sound like my old instructor to bad he went to the airline's he was a great
instructor. The Flight school he used to work at was not so good though they
are crooks

[NW_PILOT]

"Robert M. Gary" > wrote in message
om...
> (Michael) wrote in message
>...
> > Dave S > wrote
> > > My answer as a non-CFI is.. I would expect the number of CFI's who
> > > actually endorse a student for night solo to be VERY low.. simply as a
> > > result of the environment in which we instruct and train.
> >
> > My answer as a CFI is - if not now, when? The student will have night
> > privileges when he passes the checkride. Therefore, if you don't feel
> > comfortable having him fly solo at night on your ticket, how can you
> > send him to the checkride?
>
> I don't feel comfortable signing my students off for cross countries
> from San Francisco to New York either but their private priv will
> allow it. I expect students will ask for extra training in certain
> areas as they grown in their private. Most don't do any night flying
> for the first year or so after their private so anything given would
> be mostly lost anyway.
>
> -Robert, CFI

Robert, what is the speed and range of the airplane your training in? I
would love to have enough range to make it from San Francisco to New York in
1 day during daylight hours only!

[Peter Duniho]

"NW_PILOT" > wrote in message
...
> Robert, what is the speed and range of the airplane your training in? I
> would love to have enough range to make it from San Francisco to New York
> in
> 1 day during daylight hours only!

He never said anything about making it from SF to NY "in 1 day during
daylight hours only". Why in the world do you think he did?

[NW_PILOT]

Commented below look down!

----- Original Message -----
From: "Peter Duniho" >
Newsgroups: rec.aviation.student,rec.aviation.piloting
Sent: Tuesday, October 12, 2004 4:40 PM
Subject: Re: Student night solo?

> The student will have passenger carrying privileges when he passes the
> checkride. Therefore, if you don't feel comfortable having him fly with
> passengers on your ticket, how can you send him to the checkride?

As I understand it the DE on the checkride is the students first passanger
evaluating the student.

>
> Seriously...the above analogy is only a little facetious. The truth is
> that, once your student has passed his checkride, he will be legal to do a
> whole slew of things never covered in primary training.

Only thing I can think of is carring passangers and lower weather min for
some! As a student I was doing solo SVFR flights in the pattern. If they are
renting they may not be able to do a few things like soft field unless
approved by the FBO or Club.

>The only
> alternative to that situation is to make the primary training take orders
of
> magnitude longer than it does now.

I have not meet one person that has done the primary training in the min
time usually 20 to 40 hours more then required.

>
> Some things can be explored by the pilot on his own, gradually expanding
his
> envelope of flight skills, others really will require additional training
> time with a qualified instructor before the student ought to try them.

Humm?????? Like with all things of skill, But they should be at a skill
level that meets or exceeds PTS prior to check ride.

>But
> in all cases, they are examples of things that the student is not going to
> be approved to do by his instructor before the checkride, nor should he
be,
> even though the FAA will consider him legal to attempt after the
checkride.

I was allowed to do every thing in the PTS as a student on solo flights as
long as I demonstrated profiecenty.

>
> I think it's great that you are able to train your students to solo
> proficiency in night flight during the course of the student's training
(you
> don't say how often you are able to do this in the minimum three hours),
but
> the argument "he'll be able to do it after the checkride, so why not
> before?" is just plain silly.

So if you know a student cannot fly well or be safe at night you would sign
him off for a check ride knowing that he would be unsafe at night? that is
just plain silly and rather reckless. The point of it all is building
proficiency not racing the clock to see how few of hours you can do it in
required 3 hours but if it take 10 or 12 or even 20 hours of night to be
safe & proficient then so be it.

> It carries no logical weight whatsoever.

Just because they are not examined except by the instructor on night flying
and night proficiency doesn't mean you can skimp on that part of the flight
training.

>
> Pete
>
>

[NW_PILOT]

"Peter Duniho" > wrote in message
...
> "NW_PILOT" > wrote in message
> ...
> > Robert, what is the speed and range of the airplane your training in? I
> > would love to have enough range to make it from San Francisco to New
York
> > in
> > 1 day during daylight hours only!
>
> He never said anything about making it from SF to NY "in 1 day during
> daylight hours only". Why in the world do you think he did?
>
>


Well, as I was told by my CFI that the Cross Country Solo endorsment is
valid for the date of the endorsment only. But I could be wrong as I am not
a CFI.

[Mark Hansen]

On 10/13/2004 14:25, NW_PILOT wrote:

> Commented below look down!
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Peter Duniho" >
> Newsgroups: rec.aviation.student,rec.aviation.piloting
> Sent: Tuesday, October 12, 2004 4:40 PM
> Subject: Re: Student night solo?
>
>> The student will have passenger carrying privileges when he passes the
>> checkride. Therefore, if you don't feel comfortable having him fly with
>> passengers on your ticket, how can you send him to the checkride?
>
> As I understand it the DE on the checkride is the students first passanger
> evaluating the student.

I don't think that's true. According to the FARs, you cannot carry
passengers until you have the certificate. Therefore, the examiner
is still the instructor and the student is still logging dual
instruction time.

[NW_PILOT]

"Mark Hansen" > wrote in message
...
> On 10/13/2004 14:25, NW_PILOT wrote:
>
> > Commented below look down!
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Peter Duniho" >
> > Newsgroups: rec.aviation.student,rec.aviation.piloting
> > Sent: Tuesday, October 12, 2004 4:40 PM
> > Subject: Re: Student night solo?
> >
> >> The student will have passenger carrying privileges when he passes the
> >> checkride. Therefore, if you don't feel comfortable having him fly
with
> >> passengers on your ticket, how can you send him to the checkride?
> >
> > As I understand it the DE on the checkride is the students first
passanger
> > evaluating the student.
>
> I don't think that's true. According to the FARs, you cannot carry
> passengers until you have the certificate. Therefore, the examiner
> is still the instructor and the student is still logging dual
> instruction time.
>

That's werid the examiner on my check ride told me to log PIC only not Dual
as he was just along for the ride.

[Peter Clark]

On Wed, 13 Oct 2004 15:07:26 -0700, Mark Hansen >
wrote:

>On 10/13/2004 14:25, NW_PILOT wrote:
>
>> Commented below look down!
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Peter Duniho" >
>> Newsgroups: rec.aviation.student,rec.aviation.piloting
>> Sent: Tuesday, October 12, 2004 4:40 PM
>> Subject: Re: Student night solo?
>>
>>> The student will have passenger carrying privileges when he passes the
>>> checkride. Therefore, if you don't feel comfortable having him fly with
>>> passengers on your ticket, how can you send him to the checkride?
>>
>> As I understand it the DE on the checkride is the students first passanger
>> evaluating the student.
>
>I don't think that's true. According to the FARs, you cannot carry
>passengers until you have the certificate. Therefore, the examiner
>is still the instructor and the student is still logging dual
>instruction time.

The examiner is a special case. They endorse the log as proficiency
passed and give you a slip, but it's PIC time for the examinee and no
dual received gets logged.

[Peter Duniho]

"Mark Hansen" > wrote in message
...
>> As I understand it the DE on the checkride is the students first
>> passanger
>> evaluating the student.
>
> I don't think that's true. According to the FARs, you cannot carry
> passengers until you have the certificate. Therefore, the examiner
> is still the instructor and the student is still logging dual
> instruction time.

According to the FAA, the examiner is not a "passenger". Nor is he an
instructor. The pilot being examined logs PIC as if he were the only person
in the airplane.

Strange, but true.

Pete

[Peter Duniho]

"NW_PILOT" > wrote in message
...
> As I understand it the DE on the checkride is the students first passanger
> evaluating the student.

No. The examiner is not a "passenger" by FAA definitions. The FAA decided
this so as to prevent any confusion about whether a student pilot may carry
passengers or not. But even if the examiner were a passenger, so what? The
student is not allowed to carry passengers prior to the checkride.

> Only thing I can think of is carring passangers and lower weather min for
> some!

Well, then you're either not thinking very hard, or you're a relatively
low-time pilot (or a high-time pilot with the same hours thousands of
times). Flying airplanes can involve a wide variety of things that are
never touched on during primary training.

> As a student I was doing solo SVFR flights in the pattern.

FAR 61.89 "(a) A student pilot may not act as pilot in command of an
aircraft:(6) With a flight or surface visibility of less than 3 statute
miles during daylight hours or 5 statute miles at night". Okay, so you
managed to stay out of some clouds as a student...so what? You didn't
*really* fly minimum "special VFR" weather as a student.

> If they are
> renting they may not be able to do a few things like soft field unless
> approved by the FBO or Club.

Soft field landings should be covered during primary training.

However, things like:

-- landing on a beach
-- flying through a mountain pass
-- landing at LAX
-- VFR over the top of a solid cloud layer
-- maximum gross operations
-- not to mention, flying minimum 1 mile visibility, clear of clouds
Special VFR

just to name a handful are not covered during primary training, and yet a
brand new Private Pilot is permitted to do any of those.

> I have not meet one person that has done the primary training in the min
> time usually 20 to 40 hours more then required.

So what? The fact that training already takes longer than the minimum is
not an argument for adding even MORE things to the training.

> Humm?????? Like with all things of skill, But they should be at a skill
> level that meets or exceeds PTS prior to check ride.

Again, there is a wide variety of things that are simply not covered during
primary training, nor are they part of the Private Pilot Practical Test
Standards. How in the world is a pilot supposed to fly "at a skill level
that meets or exceeds PTS prior to check ride" if those things are not even
in the PTS?

> I was allowed to do every thing in the PTS as a student on solo flights as
> long as I demonstrated profiecenty.

Goodie for you. So what?

>> but
>> the argument "he'll be able to do it after the checkride, so why not
>> before?" is just plain silly.
>
> So if you know a student cannot fly well or be safe at night you would
> sign
> him off for a check ride knowing that he would be unsafe at night?

I have no idea where you got such a ridiculous idea.

> that is just plain silly and rather reckless.

Of course it is. So what?

> The point of it all is building
> proficiency not racing the clock to see how few of hours you can do it in
> required 3 hours

So what? I never said "the point of it all" is "racing the clock".

> but if it take 10 or 12 or even 20 hours of night to be
> safe & proficient then so be it.

Yes, so be it. It takes as much time to train a pilot to certain standards
as it takes the pilot to be trained to those standards. That's not exactly
a news flash, and I never disagreed with that philosophy.

However, even in 10 hours, you are not going to train a pilot to complete
proficiency in night flying. And even if you could, that does not
necessarily mean that there's generally going to be a good reason for an
instructor to take the risk of endorsing the student for solo night flight
(though, obviously in some cases, there will be a good reason to do so).

> Just because they are not examined except by the instructor on night
> flying
> and night proficiency doesn't mean you can skimp on that part of the
> flight
> training.

I never said you could.

It appears to me that you are simply making up stuff to disagree with. None
of the stuff you are disagreeing with are in any way representative of
statements I've made.

Pete

[Peter Duniho]

"NW_PILOT" > wrote in message
...
> Well, as I was told by my CFI that the Cross Country Solo endorsment is
> valid for the date of the endorsment only.

First, whether the FARs allow it or not does not necessarily have anything
to do with whether Robert would feel comfortable doing so.

Second, a XC endorsement is valid for whatever period the instructor deems
it valid. Students may, and do, make multi-day XC flights. The flight must
still meet the relevant portions of 61.93, which would include the
instructor reviewing the weather reports and forecast for the flight. IMHO,
the instructor also ought to be "in the loop" during each day (and
preferably each leg) of the flight.

But there's nothing that requires the endorsement to be exercised in a
single day, nor even that the instructor continue to monitor the student
over the course of the flight (as bad an idea as not doing so might be).
The instructor is simply required to have "reviewed the current and forecast
weather conditions" and to have "determined that the flight can be completed
under VFR", as far as weather conditions go.

So, if Robert really wanted to, he certainly could endorse a student to fly
solo from SF to NYC.

> But I could be wrong as I am not a CFI.

AFAIK, you are permitted to read FAR 61.93 even if you're not a CFI.

Pete

[NW_PILOT]

> No. The examiner is not a "passenger" by FAA definitions. The FAA
decided
> this so as to prevent any confusion about whether a student pilot may
carry
> passengers or not. But even if the examiner were a passenger, so what?
The
> student is not allowed to carry passengers prior to the checkride.
>
> > Only thing I can think of is carring passangers and lower weather min
for
> > some!
>
> Well, then you're either not thinking very hard, or you're a relatively
> low-time pilot (or a high-time pilot with the same hours thousands of
> times). Flying airplanes can involve a wide variety of things that are
> never touched on during primary training.

Yea, I am thinking but not going to dwell over it and I am a low time pilot
just under 200 hours

>
> > As a student I was doing solo SVFR flights in the pattern.
>
> FAR 61.89 "(a) A student pilot may not act as pilot in command of an
> aircraft:(6) With a flight or surface visibility of less than 3 statute
> miles during daylight hours or 5 statute miles at night". Okay, so you
> managed to stay out of some clouds as a student...so what? You didn't
> *really* fly minimum "special VFR" weather as a student.

So if the ceilings are at 800' broken 900' overcast that's not VFR weather
and if you wanted to do pattern work or depart to ware weather is VFR you
could request a SVFR upon instructor approval and any instructor in their
right mind would want you to prove you can handel an emergancy at low
altitudes.

>
> > If they are
> > renting they may not be able to do a few things like soft field unless
> > approved by the FBO or Club.
>
> Soft field landings should be covered during primary training.

Most FBO's will not let you do soft field landings for insurance reasons and
most examiners have you simulate softfield.

>
> However, things like:
>
> -- landing on a beach

Only 1 place in the US I believe that's allowed Copalis, Wa S16 but should
be covered in ground and in softfield operations.

> -- flying through a mountain pass

My instructor covered that with me because I am in a mountainous area

> -- landing at LAX

Class B Airspace usualy coverd during ground school.

> -- VFR over the top of a solid cloud layer

Here in the northwest that is common occorance

> -- maximum gross operations

Covered during training to far FWD and AFT CG limits also and if you train
in a 150 that is usualy coverd every day my instructor said Pushing Gross.

> -- not to mention, flying minimum 1 mile visibility, clear of clouds

Now that was not covered because I never plan on flying in them conditions
and hope I never have to unless I am IFR and I haven't found an instructor
to suite my needs I have found out most instructors just want to teach you
the minimum myself I need more than the minimum out of an instructor.

> Special VFR

Coverd becuse of the climate we are in.

>
> just to name a handful are not covered during primary training, and yet a
> brand new Private Pilot is permitted to do any of those.
>
> > I have not meet one person that has done the primary training in the min
> > time usually 20 to 40 hours more then required.
>
> So what? The fact that training already takes longer than the minimum is
> not an argument for adding even MORE things to the training.

Toss time out the window.... I think that a good instructor will cover all
of the PTS Plus! some real world flying especially in for the local
conditions that the student will be flying in and out of. I know an
instructor cannot cover every thing but the major things should be covered
and coverd well like night flying.

>
> > Humm?????? Like with all things of skill, But they should be at a skill
> > level that meets or exceeds PTS prior to check ride.
>
> Again, there is a wide variety of things that are simply not covered
during
> primary training, nor are they part of the Private Pilot Practical Test
> Standards. How in the world is a pilot supposed to fly "at a skill level
> that meets or exceeds PTS prior to check ride" if those things are not
even
> in the PTS?

exceeds!!!! means to cover them subjects that are not in the PTS.

To extend beyond the PTS
To be greater than; surpass the PTS
To go beyond the limits of the PTS

If you have a student and he/she wanted to do his 150NM X-C and he/she
needed to fly through a mountian pass would you cover it till he could do
it safely or would you give the student a general verbal overview and let
the student mess up and possible kill himself or someone else on the ground.


>
> > I was allowed to do every thing in the PTS as a student on solo flights
as
> > long as I demonstrated profiecenty.
>
> Goodie for you. So what?
>
> >> but
> >> the argument "he'll be able to do it after the checkride, so why not
> >> before?" is just plain silly.
> >
> > So if you know a student cannot fly well or be safe at night you would
> > sign
> > him off for a check ride knowing that he would be unsafe at night?
>
> I have no idea where you got such a ridiculous idea.

Ridiculous? You would put your name on somone that you could not trust to be
safe at night it could come back to byte you.

>
> > that is just plain silly and rather reckless.
>
> Of course it is. So what?


So you condone reckless activity?

>
> > The point of it all is building
> > proficiency not racing the clock to see how few of hours you can do it
in
> > required 3 hours
>
> So what? I never said "the point of it all" is "racing the clock".
>
> > but if it take 10 or 12 or even 20 hours of night to be
> > safe & proficient then so be it.
>
> Yes, so be it. It takes as much time to train a pilot to certain
standards
> as it takes the pilot to be trained to those standards. That's not
exactly
> a news flash, and I never disagreed with that philosophy.
>
> However, even in 10 hours, you are not going to train a pilot to complete
> proficiency in night flying. And even if you could, that does not
> necessarily mean that there's generally going to be a good reason for an
> instructor to take the risk of endorsing the student for solo night flight
> (though, obviously in some cases, there will be a good reason to do so).

There are a lot of good reasons to do so 1, experience for the student and
2, knowing that the student can handle the extra added mental pressure at
night. Same risk as endorsing the student for solo day flight. If the
instructor is confident in his training abilities and proficiency of the
student why not let the student solo at night with limits.


>
> > Just because they are not examined except by the instructor on night
> > flying
> > and night proficiency doesn't mean you can skimp on that part of the
> > flight
> > training.
>
> I never said you could.

You implied

>
> It appears to me that you are simply making up stuff to disagree with.
None
> of the stuff you are disagreeing with are in any way representative of
> statements I've made.
>
> Pete
>
>

I did not make anything up! That's the way I interpreted what you said.



I think that if an instructor don't feel comfortable with the students night
flying then that instructor should require extra flight time with the
student to make sure that student can handle night flying safely. Prior to
check ride the PTS is just the min that is required to be coverd during
training and is to be used as a guide is what I was told and also told that
it never hurts to make up your own standards that exceed the ones in the
PTS. I know i would not chouse a instructor that only did the min that was
required. Enough on the other subjects the discussion is night time solo for
students.

So my final thought is if you think the student can handle night solo then
do it. If you don't think the student can handle it then time for more night
training till you think the student can handel it.

[Peter Duniho]

"NW_PILOT" > wrote in message
...
> So if the ceilings are at 800' broken 900' overcast that's not VFR weather
> and if you wanted to do pattern work or depart to ware weather is VFR you
> could request a SVFR upon instructor approval and any instructor in their
> right mind would want you to prove you can handel an emergancy at low
> altitudes.

Is that an actual sentence? With semantic meaning and everything? If so, I
couldn't tell. Try again.

> Most FBO's will not let you do soft field landings for insurance reasons
> and
> most examiners have you simulate softfield.

Honestly, what do you know about "most FBO's"? In any case, I was simply
pointing out that soft field landings ARE required as training for the
Private Pilot. Whether a pilot finds themselves in a position to do a real
soft field landing later is irrelevant, since it's not a pertinent example
anyway.

>> -- landing on a beach
>
> Only 1 place in the US I believe that's allowed Copalis, Wa S16 but should
> be covered in ground and in softfield operations.

Copalis may well be the only designated airport in the US that's on a beach.
That doesn't mean it's the only place where you're allowed to land on a
beach. But even if it were, it's a perfectly valid example of something not
normally covered in primary training.

>> -- flying through a mountain pass
>
> My instructor covered that with me because I am in a mountainous area

I guarantee you that you did not get a full, in-depth education in mountain
flying. How many hours, ground and in the air, did your instructor actually
spend with you training on mountain operations?

But even if you did get a thorough course of mountain training, that would
be irrelevant. We're not talking about YOUR training. We're talking about
the training most pilots get, to the minimum standards listed in the PTS.

>> -- landing at LAX
>
> Class B Airspace usualy coverd during ground school.

So what? Do you think the ground school coverage of Class B airspace truly
prepares you for operations at LAX? Again, your limited experience is
showing here.

In any case, the question is whether a solo student would be able to do it.
They would not.

>> -- VFR over the top of a solid cloud layer
>
> Here in the northwest that is common occorance

Not for solo students, it's not.

>> -- maximum gross operations
>
> Covered during training to far FWD and AFT CG limits also and if you train
> in a 150 that is usualy coverd every day my instructor said Pushing Gross.

If you flew your trainer solo in all corners of the W&B envelope, you've
received a more in-depth education than most students. But even so, that's
irrelevant since, again, we're not talking about your training, but that of
the typical student.

That said, it would surprise me if you did more than just *talk* about fore
and aft CG limits, and it would surprise me if you flew the 150 at maximum
gross solo.

Anyway, the point remains that maximum gross operations are often NOT
experienced by a pilot flying without an instructor until after they receive
their private pilot certificate.

>> -- not to mention, flying minimum 1 mile visibility, clear of clouds
>
> Now that was not covered because I never plan on flying in them conditions
> and hope I never have to unless I am IFR and I haven't found an instructor
> to suite my needs I have found out most instructors just want to teach you
> the minimum myself I need more than the minimum out of an instructor.
>
>> Special VFR
>
> Coverd becuse of the climate we are in.

You split a single item into two. Special VFR minimums are 1 mile
visibility, clear of clouds. If you plan on using Special VFR to its
fullest extent, you have to be willing to fly in visibility below 3 miles.

But regardless, AGAIN, we're not talking about you. We're talking about
what a student may not experience solo even though they are legally
permitted to do after getting their Private certificate. Whether YOU plan
on flying in such conditions is totally irrelevant.


>> So what? The fact that training already takes longer than the minimum is
>> not an argument for adding even MORE things to the training.
>
> Toss time out the window

Really? You seriously don't understand what you're talking about. To train
a pilot for ALL of the various situations they can legally get themselves
into as a Private Pilot would take hundreds of hours of instruction.

> .... I think that a good instructor will cover all
> of the PTS Plus! some real world flying especially in for the local
> conditions that the student will be flying in and out of.

A good instructor will go beyond the minimum requirements, yes. But it is
simply impractical to cover everything. No student would ever finish.

> I know an
> instructor cannot cover every thing but the major things should be covered
> and coverd well like night flying.

If you know an instructor cannot cover everything, then why are you arguing
that an instructor should cover everything? The only question here is
whether there are things a student pilot may not do solo, but can do once
they pass their checkride. That's the ONLY question. Any attempt on your
part to expand that question in search of something to argue with is just
straw-man-ship.

>> > Humm?????? Like with all things of skill, But they should be at a skill
>> > level that meets or exceeds PTS prior to check ride.
>>
>> Again, there is a wide variety of things that are simply not covered
> during
>> primary training, nor are they part of the Private Pilot Practical Test
>> Standards. How in the world is a pilot supposed to fly "at a skill level
>> that meets or exceeds PTS prior to check ride" if those things are not
> even
>> in the PTS?
>
> exceeds!!!! means to cover them subjects that are not in the PTS.

If you mean "subjects that are not in the PTS", then you need to say THAT.
"Meets or exceeds" specifically references items actually IN the PTS. You
may mean something other than that, but that's not what the words you use
mean. (Granted, it's apparent from your posts that knowing what words mean,
and how to put them together to form coherent thoughts is certainly not your
strong suit).

> If you have a student and he/she wanted to do his 150NM X-C and he/she
> needed to fly through a mountian pass would you cover it till he could do
> it safely or would you give the student a general verbal overview and let
> the student mess up and possible kill himself or someone else on the
> ground.

What's that got to do with the question of things a student may not do solo
prior to the checkride, but may do after the checkride?

>> > So if you know a student cannot fly well or be safe at night you would
>> > sign
>> > him off for a check ride knowing that he would be unsafe at night?
>>
>> I have no idea where you got such a ridiculous idea.
>
> Ridiculous? You would put your name on somone that you could not trust to
> be
> safe at night it could come back to byte you.

The "ridiculous idea" is your claim that if I "know a student cannot fly
well or be safe at night" I would "sign him off for a checkride knowing that
he would be unsafe at night". I never said I would, and your inference that
I would is ridiculous.

> So you condone reckless activity?

No. Again, your inference that I would is ridiculous.

>> However, even in 10 hours, you are not going to train a pilot to complete
>> proficiency in night flying. And even if you could, that does not
>> necessarily mean that there's generally going to be a good reason for an
>> instructor to take the risk of endorsing the student for solo night
>> flight
>> (though, obviously in some cases, there will be a good reason to do so).
>
> There are a lot of good reasons to do so 1, experience for the student and
> 2, knowing that the student can handle the extra added mental pressure at
> night. Same risk as endorsing the student for solo day flight. If the
> instructor is confident in his training abilities and proficiency of the
> student why not let the student solo at night with limits.

Because there's no requirement for the student to fly solo at night prior to
his checkride. There IS a requirement for the student to fly solo during
the day prior to his checkride.

In other words, the instructor simply cannot accomplish his goals without
signing the student off for day solo flight. But there's no need to do so
for night solo flight.

Every flight carries a risk. Every flight I make, and every flight you
make. Likewise, every flight an instructor's student makes carries a risk.
Just because the student is thought to be safe, that doesn't mean an
instructor should expose himself to the risk of having that student have an
accident while under that instructor's care, if there's no compelling reason
to do so.

And there's no compelling reason to do so.

>> > Just because they are not examined except by the instructor on night
>> > flying
>> > and night proficiency doesn't mean you can skimp on that part of the
>> > flight
>> > training.
>>
>> I never said you could.
>
> You implied

I certainly did not.

> [...]
> I did not make anything up! That's the way I interpreted what you said.

Your interpretations do not match the words I used. An interpretation that
does not match the words someone uses is a very clear example of making
something up. Ergo, you certainly did make something up.

> I think that if an instructor don't feel comfortable with the students
> night
> flying then that instructor should require extra flight time with the
> student to make sure that student can handle night flying safely.

So what? Even an instructor who feels comfortable with the student's night
skills has no compelling reason to sign the student off for solo night
flight, and good reason to not do so. It's an unnecessary risk. Why take
an unnecessary risk?

Pete

[C J Campbell]

"Peter Duniho" > wrote in message
...
>
> Soft field landings should be covered during primary training.
>
> However, things like:
>
> -- landing on a beach
> -- flying through a mountain pass
> -- landing at LAX
> -- VFR over the top of a solid cloud layer
> -- maximum gross operations
> -- not to mention, flying minimum 1 mile visibility, clear of clouds
> Special VFR
>
> just to name a handful are not covered during primary training, and yet a
> brand new Private Pilot is permitted to do any of those.

Student pilots are not allowed to fly in other countries, either. They have
to have an instructor check their flight plan and weather before every cross
country flight, unless they have the "commuter" endorsement for repeated
cross country flights of less than 25 miles.

But private pilots can fly anywhere they want without writing out a flight
plan and nav log.

Student pilots may not fly "in furtherance of a business," but private
pilots may.

Student pilots may not carry federal election candidates for hire, but
private pilots can.

[C J Campbell]

"Michael" > wrote in message
om...
> Dave S > wrote
> > My answer as a non-CFI is.. I would expect the number of CFI's who
> > actually endorse a student for night solo to be VERY low.. simply as a
> > result of the environment in which we instruct and train.
>
> My answer as a CFI is - if not now, when?

When he passes his check ride. Until then, I don't need the liability
incurred by allowing students to fly at night.

[Michael]

(Robert M. Gary) wrote
> I don't feel comfortable signing my students off for cross countries
> from San Francisco to New York either

Why not? I think a long solo XC is a great idea. Most students don't
do one that long but I see no reason to say no.

> I expect students will ask for extra training in certain
> areas as they grown in their private.

Sure - but basic night flying isn't one of them. In other countries
it's a separte rating, and that's fine - but in the US it's something
we expect at the private level.

There is also the reality that the vast majority of students WON'T
come back for additional training.

> Most don't do any night flying
> for the first year or so after their private so anything given would
> be mostly lost anyway.

Have you ever considered the possibility that this is because they
don't feel comfortable with their night flying skills?

Now my experience is certainly different from yours - I only know ONE
private pilot who didn't fly at night in the first year (usually the
first month) after getting the rating.

I once had an instrument student who, before he came to me, had NEVER
flown solo at night. He had the minimum three hours for his private,
then never again. What's more, he wasn't competent to fly at night.

Flying at night scared him. I told him that given our schedules we
would need to do much of our training at night, so we did a couple of
hours of night dual. That was all it took. The next week, he was
flying night solo. But the first hour was certainly... interesting.

And this is why I have a real problem with this blanket acceptance of
no night solo. There is no effective way to test night flying
competence during the daytime, so it is not tested on the checkride
(unlike all the other skills that have been mentioned in the thread).
As the CFI who gave the night training, you are it. If you don't feel
comfortable having the student fly at night, and your judgment is
sound, then he probably should not be flying at night. If he flies at
night before the checkride, you have some control and as a minimum he
risks only his own neck. After the checkride your liability is
reduced (not eliminated) but making the decision based on liability
rather than actual safety is a practice I can't really get behind -
and your student's first night flight without you is probably going to
be with a passenger.

Michael

[Brien K. Meehan]

If you're unable to teach students how to fly at night, you shouldn't
sign them off for flying solo at night.

[Brooks Hagenow]

Brien K. Meehan wrote:

> If you're unable to teach students how to fly at night, you shouldn't
> sign them off for flying solo at night.
>

I like your domain.

[Robert M. Gary]

(Michael) wrote in message >...
> (Robert M. Gary) wrote
> Sure - but basic night flying isn't one of them. In other countries
> it's a separte rating, and that's fine - but in the US it's something
> we expect at the private level.

With the amount of training we give students the should be able to
safely return home even if it gets dark. However, if they plan on
flying a lot of cross countries to unfamiliar airports they may want
to consider getting more than the minimum. I don't have a problem
providing more training but most students aren't interested in that
during their primary training. Most of my students are working
professionals so the time difference between night training and
checkride is often 6 months. Going 6 months without flying at night is
hard for any rated pilot.

> And this is why I have a real problem with this blanket acceptance of
> no night solo.

I would not have a problem soloing a student at night but would
normally require some additional training. However, the FBOs I work
for prohibit students from flying at night solo so it doesn't make
much difference. I do often work with aircraft owners so that could
happen.

-Robert, CFI

[Andrew Sarangan]

Mark Hansen > wrote in
:

> On 10/13/2004 14:25, NW_PILOT wrote:
>
>> Commented below look down!
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Peter Duniho" >
>> Newsgroups: rec.aviation.student,rec.aviation.piloting
>> Sent: Tuesday, October 12, 2004 4:40 PM
>> Subject: Re: Student night solo?
>>
>>> The student will have passenger carrying privileges when he passes
>>> the checkride. Therefore, if you don't feel comfortable having him
>>> fly with passengers on your ticket, how can you send him to the
>>> checkride?
>>
>> As I understand it the DE on the checkride is the students first
>> passanger evaluating the student.
>
> I don't think that's true. According to the FARs, you cannot carry
> passengers until you have the certificate. Therefore, the examiner
> is still the instructor and the student is still logging dual
> instruction time.
>


No, the examiner is a passenger. The checkride endorsement allows the
student carry a passenger for the purpose of taking the practical test.


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[C J Campbell]

"Andrew Sarangan" > wrote in message
. 5...
> >
>
>
> No, the examiner is a passenger.

Where in the FARs does it say the examiner is a passenger? The examiner is
the examiner.

[Andrew Sarangan]

"C J Campbell" > wrote in
:

>
> "Andrew Sarangan" > wrote in message
> . 5...
>> >
>>
>>
>> No, the examiner is a passenger.
>
> Where in the FARs does it say the examiner is a passenger? The
> examiner is the examiner.
>
>

True, the examiner is the examiner. But for all practical purposes he
should be treated as a passenger, and is the first person other than an
instructor the student is authorized to carry.


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[Peter Duniho]

"Andrew Sarangan" > wrote in message
. 5...
> No, the examiner is a passenger. The checkride endorsement allows the
> student carry a passenger for the purpose of taking the practical test.

The examiner is NOT a passenger. As CJ says, he's the examiner. Mark's
post was in error, as I already pointed out. But yours is as well.

[Michael]

(Robert M. Gary) wrote
> With the amount of training we give students the should be able to
> safely return home even if it gets dark. However, if they plan on
> flying a lot of cross countries to unfamiliar airports they may want
> to consider getting more than the minimum.

Sorry, don't buy it. The IFR training we give is emergency training
for making it home, the night training we give includes planning and
executing an actual night XC flight. I see no reason why it would not
be enough to attain basic night proficiency. It was enough for me,
and for most students I know. Yes, there are occasional exceptions.

There are also those who need more than the three hours mandated to
attain emergency instrument proficiency (and some who need much less).
Tell me - if there was no instrument flying on the checkride would
you sign off those who had the three hours but had not achieved
proficiency? Or suppose you knew the student was cheating
(intentionally or otherwise) because he could not maintain control on
instruments on an overcast night, but did fine in the daytime - would
you sign him off? Or would you insist he either get it right at night
(when he can't cheat) or stop at the recreational?

> Most of my students are working
> professionals so the time difference between night training and
> checkride is often 6 months. Going 6 months without flying at night is
> hard for any rated pilot.

Sure it is - a low time pilot anyway. I don't think this should be a
factor for two reasons.

First, night training, like instrument training, should be done
towards the end of the training cycle, not months before the
checkride. This is advanced training, and the student will get little
out of it if he is not already day-VFR proficient. In fact, I can
easily see why a student might need more than three hours of night
training for night proficiency if those hours come months before he is
ready for the checkride.

Second, once the night training is complete, there is no reason why
those working professionals should not fly solo at night - then there
would be no reason for the six month gap.

Now I understand that some FBO's have a problem with this - and
frankly, that's one of the many reasons I prefer not to deal with an
FBO - compromising the quality of training in order to comply with
their rules sticks in my craw. But if you must deal with an FBO that
has such rules, then simply do night/instrument as the last thing.

> I would not have a problem soloing a student at night but would
> normally require some additional training.

And I have a real problem with this.

Either the student is competent for night flight without an
instructor, or he isn't. If he isn't, how can you endorse him for the
checkride? If he is, why not give him a night solo endorsement?

Michael

[Robert M. Gary]

> First, night training, like instrument training, should be done
> towards the end of the training cycle,

Of course everything should be done at the end of training but when
some students take 2 years to get through their private, its hard to
do everything the month before the checkride. Its just the reality of
the training env we are in. People plan to fly once a week but work,
weather, family get in the way and its not unusual for students to be
gone for over a month. Since night isn't tested in actual on the
checkride, CFIs tend to focus on the things the DE will be asking them
the next month.


-Robert

[Michael]

(Robert M. Gary) wrote
> Of course everything should be done at the end of training

Well, no. Slow flight and stalls should be done at the beginning.
Ground reference maneuvers should be done at the beginning. Steep
turns should be done at the beginning. Those things develop the
student's ability to feel the airplane (primarily for trim), fly a
pattern, and land the airplane, and that comes first.

Visits to other airports should be done in the middle. Pilotage, dead
reckoning, and VOR navigation should be done in the middle. Daytime
XC should be done in the middle.

And the advanced topics - instrument and night - should be done at the
end.

> Since night isn't tested in actual on the
> checkride, CFIs tend to focus on the things the DE will be asking them
> the next month.

And once again, I have a problem with this. If the DE won't be
testing it, that means you should be paying more, not less, attention
to it. You're not training the student to pass a checkride, you're
training him to exercise the privileges of the certificate.

If his turns around a point are sloppy, so what? The point was to
teach him to fly a ground track so he could fly a reasonable pattern.
If this has happened, the maneuver has served its purpose. The WORST
that can possibly happen is that it's bad enough on that particular
day that he busts - and that's a reach. If his night flying skills
are sloppy, really bad things can happen when dinner at the in-laws
runs late...

Michael

[Paul Sengupta]

"Mark Hansen" > wrote in message
...
> On 10/13/2004 14:25, NW_PILOT wrote:
> > As I understand it the DE on the checkride is the students first
passanger
> > evaluating the student.
>
> I don't think that's true. According to the FARs, you cannot carry
> passengers until you have the certificate. Therefore, the examiner
> is still the instructor and the student is still logging dual
> instruction time.

In the UK, this time is logged as P1(S). The (S) is "under supervision".
Still counts as P1 time.

Paul

[Paul Sengupta]

"Peter MacPherson" > wrote in message
news:9kQad.459163$8_6.292132@attbi_s04...
> I'm a CFI and was curious how many CFI's sign their students off for
> flying solo at night. I personally don't feel comfortable doing it.

Not sure about now, but when I did my UK night rating, a certain
amount of solo night flying was mandatory before obtaining the
rating.

Paul

[Andy Campbell]

I can just see myself setting my transponder to Air Force One in my
Cessna 150! Besides, I don't think I would trust certain candidates to
be a safe passenger...
-ahc-

C J Campbell wrote:
> "Peter Duniho" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>Soft field landings should be covered during primary training.
>>
>>However, things like:
>>
>> -- landing on a beach
>> -- flying through a mountain pass
>> -- landing at LAX
>> -- VFR over the top of a solid cloud layer
>> -- maximum gross operations
>> -- not to mention, flying minimum 1 mile visibility, clear of clouds
>>Special VFR
>>
>>just to name a handful are not covered during primary training, and yet a
>>brand new Private Pilot is permitted to do any of those.
>
>
> Student pilots are not allowed to fly in other countries, either. They have
> to have an instructor check their flight plan and weather before every cross
> country flight, unless they have the "commuter" endorsement for repeated
> cross country flights of less than 25 miles.
>
> But private pilots can fly anywhere they want without writing out a flight
> plan and nav log.
>
> Student pilots may not fly "in furtherance of a business," but private
> pilots may.
>
> Student pilots may not carry federal election candidates for hire, but
> private pilots can.
>
>