Re: FAA PPL night flight requirement - does it have to be DUAL?

[Gary Drescher]

"Peter" > wrote in message
...
>
> Reading FAR/AIM 2004 it isn't entirely clear to me because different
> sections refer to day and night cross country, and I don't think the
> description of a day cross country applies to the night flight; the
> distances are 150nm and 100nm respectively.
>
> I have night flights with an instructor which exceed 100 miles in
> total distance, and I have a solo night flight which exceeds 100nm
> which was done between two airports whose direct line spacing is
> 119nm.
>
> I suspect that the information on the basis of which I did the last
> flight was bogus and I don't meet the FAA PPL requirement.
>
> Can anyone suggest the FAR/AIM 2004 sections which could clarify this?

Look at 61.109 (Private Pilots, Aeronautical Experience). According to
61.109a2, you need "3 hours of night flight training in a single-engine
airplane that includes--(i) one cross-country flight of over 100 nautical
miles total distance". "Training" refers to dual flights, so your night solo
doesn't count. But any dual cross-country flight of 100nm total distance
does count. There is no straigh-line distance requirement.

--Gary


>
>
>
> Peter.
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[Peter Duniho]

"Peter" > wrote in message
...
>>Look at 61.109 (Private Pilots, Aeronautical Experience).[...]
>
> I have seen that section, and agree that "training" suggests a dual
> flight.

Good. "Training" does indeed imply a "dual flight" (and vice a versa).

> But isn't this because the student isn't (at that stage) legal
> to fly night x/c solo?

Huh? No. It's because it's a flight with an instructor giving instruction.
I thought you agreed with that. Why did you say that you agreed, when in
fact you don't?

The "training" aspect of the flight has nothing to do with whether you are
legal to fly the flight solo or not. The vast majority of "training" I've
gotten in the last decade has taken place under conditions in which I was
already legal to operate the aircraft.

> I have written to the FAA flr a clarification.

Good luck getting a response.

Pete

[Gary Drescher]

"Peter" > wrote in message
...
>>Look at 61.109 (Private Pilots, Aeronautical Experience). According to
>>61.109a2, you need "3 hours of night flight training in a single-engine
>>airplane that includes--(i) one cross-country flight of over 100 nautical
>>miles total distance". "Training" refers to dual flights, so your night
>>solo
>>doesn't count. But any dual cross-country flight of 100nm total distance
>>does count. There is no straigh-line distance requirement.
>
> I have seen that section, and agree that "training" suggests a dual
> flight. But isn't this because the student isn't (at that stage) legal
> to fly night x/c solo?

No, a student pilot can legally fly a night x/c solo (with an appropriate
CFI endorsement). In fact, 61.89a6 sets forth a visibility requirement for
student night flights as PIC; and a student pilot can only be PIC if flying
solo. Moreover, 61.129a3iii and iv require x-c "training" (dual) flights as
part of the requirements for a commercial certificate (a prerequisite for
which is a private-pilot certificate); hence, the requirement that they be
training flights is not due to any legal proscription against doing the
flights solo.

--Gary

> I have written to the FAA flr a clarification.
>
>
>
>
> Peter.
> --
> Return address is invalid to help stop junk mail.
> E-mail replies to but remove the X and the Y.
> Please do NOT copy usenet posts to email - it is NOT necessary.

[Bob Moore]

"Gary Drescher" wrote

> Look at 61.109 (Private Pilots, Aeronautical Experience). According to
> 61.109a2, you need "3 hours of night flight training in a
> single-engine airplane that includes--(i) one cross-country flight of
> over 100 nautical miles total distance". "Training" refers to dual
> flights, so your night solo doesn't count. But any dual cross-country
> flight of 100nm total distance does count. There is no straigh-line
> distance requirement.

Notice the reference to "solo flight training" also in 61.109. It
would appear that "flight training" is not limited to dual flights.

Section 61.109: Aeronautical experience.
(a) For an airplane single-engine rating. Except as provided in paragraph
(k) of this section, a person who applies for a private pilot certificate
with an airplane category and single-engine class rating must log at least
40 hours of flight time that includes at least 20 hours of flight training
from an authorized instructor and 10 hours of solo flight training in the
areas of operation listed in §61.107(b)(1) of this part, and the training
must include at least—

Bob Moore

[Peter Duniho]

"Bob Moore" > wrote in message
. 121...
> Notice the reference to "solo flight training" also in 61.109. It
> would appear that "flight training" is not limited to dual flights.

The wording you found notwithstanding, "flight training" *is* limited to
dual flights.

61.1(b)(6) "Flight training means that training, other than ground training,
received from an authorized instructor in flight in an aircraft"

The fact that the wording in the FARs is inconsistent should come as a
surprise to no one. But it's clear that in 61.109, they are talking about
training given by an instructor.

Pete

[Dave S]

Gary Drescher wrote:

> "Peter" > wrote in message
> ...
>
> and a student pilot can only be PIC if flying solo.


However, don't confuse BEING PIC with LOGGING PIC. If the student is
appropriately rated (has his solo endorsement) then why cant the student
LOG PIC as the sole manipulator while recieving instruction?

Dave

[Gary Drescher]

"Dave S" > wrote in message
k.net...
>
> Gary Drescher wrote:
>
>> "Peter" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>
>> and a student pilot can only be PIC if flying solo.
>
> However, don't confuse BEING PIC with LOGGING PIC. If the student is
> appropriately rated (has his solo endorsement) then why cant the student
> LOG PIC as the sole manipulator while recieving instruction?

I'm a little confused by your question, since logging wasn't under
discussion. My point was just that the regulation I cited imposes visibility
limits for student pilot who is acting as PIC at night; therefore, student
night solos can be legal.

But to answer your question anyway: no, a solo-endorsed student pilot cannot
log PIC time while receiving instruction. FAR 61.51e1 says that a "sport,
recreational, private, or commercial pilot" can log sole-manipulator PIC
time if appropriately rated--no mention of pre-private student pilots.

--Gary

>
> Dave