typical total time and PIC time question

[AJW]

SInce I took my training longer ago than most of you are alive, I'm confused
about current practices.

I came across a NTSB report that described a pilot with about 320 hours TT, of
which about 75 were as PIC. The pilot was about half way though his flight
training for his IRF rating, had a PPL and Class II physical. He was signed off
on complex SEL aircraft.

My own logbook when I had 320 hours tt showed about 80 hours dual, 260 PIC, but
that was back in the late 60s, and by then I had an IFR rating. What about you?
When you had about 300 hours, if you were SEL at the time, how much was dual,
how much PIC? What's typical today?

[Gary Drescher]

"AJW" > wrote in message
...
> When you had about 300 hours, if you were SEL at the time, how much was
> dual,
> how much PIC? What's typical today?

At 300 hours (PP-ASEL-IA at the time), I had 95 hours dual, 244 hours PIC
(I'd just begun my commercial training). I suspect that's a typical
distribution, at least among pilots who pursue further ratings and
certificates.

--Gary

[John T]

"AJW" > wrote in message

>
> I came across a NTSB report that described a pilot with about 320
> hours TT, of which about 75 were as PIC. The pilot was about half way
> though his flight training for his IRF rating, had a PPL and Class II
> physical. He was signed off on complex SEL aircraft.
>
> My own logbook when I had 320 hours tt showed about 80 hours dual,
> 260 PIC, but that was back in the late 60s, and by then I had an IFR
> rating. What about you? When you had about 300 hours, if you were SEL
> at the time, how much was dual, how much PIC? What's typical today?

My logbook (about 320 hours) is much more similar to yours than the crash
pilot's. It sounds like he was either a really slow learner with more money
and patience than skill or he just really liked having an instructor on
board.

--
John T
http://tknowlogy.com/TknoFlyer
http://www.pocketgear.com/products_search.asp?developerid=4415
____________________

[G Farris]

Interesting, your proportions are just about exactly reversed.
This guy had about 25% of his time as PIC, while at the same stage you had
only 25% as dual, AND you had the higher rating.

I'll bet averages today, for the first few hundred hours, are in between
somewhere. There IS more to learn and the standards have changed, even though
some of the things you probably had to demonstrate for your PPL are no longer
included in the PTS. Certainly very few pilots today have an IR rating with
only 80 hours dual.

G Faris



In article >,
says...
>
>SInce I took my training longer ago than most of you are alive, I'm confused
>about current practices.
>
>I came across a NTSB report that described a pilot with about 320 hours TT,
of
>which about 75 were as PIC. The pilot was about half way though his flight
>training for his IRF rating, had a PPL and Class II physical. He was signed
off
>on complex SEL aircraft.
>
>My own logbook when I had 320 hours tt showed about 80 hours dual, 260 PIC,
but
>that was back in the late 60s, and by then I had an IFR rating. What about
you?
>When you had about 300 hours, if you were SEL at the time, how much was dual,
>how much PIC? What's typical today?

[AJW]

>
>I'll bet averages today, for the first few hundred hours, are in between
>somewhere. There IS more to learn and the standards have changed, even though
>
>some of the things you probably had to demonstrate for your PPL are no longer
>
>included in the PTS. Certainly very few pilots today have an IR rating with
>only 80 hours dual.
>
>G Faris
>
>
>
>In article >,
says...
>>
>>SInce I took my training longer ago than most of you are alive, I'm confused
>>about current practices.
>>
>>I came across a NTSB report that described a pilot with about 320 hours TT,
>of
>>which about 75 were as PIC. The pilot was about half way though his flight
>>training for his IRF rating, had a PPL and Class II physical. He was signed
>off
>>on complex SEL aircraft.
>>
>>My own logbook when I had 320 hours tt showed about 80 hours dual, 260 PIC,
>but
>>that was back in the late 60s, and by then I had an IFR rating. What about
>you?
>>When you had about 300 hours, if you were SEL at the time, how much was
>dual,
>>how much PIC? What's typical today?
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

>I'll bet averages today, for the first few hundred hours, are in between
>somewhere. There IS more to learn and the standards have changed, even though
>
>some of the things you probably had to demonstrate for your PPL are no longer
>
>included in the PTS. Certainly very few pilots today have an IR rating with
>only 80 hours dual.
>
>G Faris
>
>
>
>In article >,
says...
>>
>>SInce I took my training longer ago than most of you are alive, I'm confused
>>about current practices.
>>
>>I came across a NTSB report that described a pilot with about 320 hours TT,
>of
>>which about 75 were as PIC. The pilot was about half way though his flight
>>training for his IRF rating, had a PPL and Class II physical. He was signed
>off
>>on complex SEL aircraft.
>>
>>My own logbook when I had 320 hours tt showed about 80 hours dual, 260 PIC,
>but
>>that was back in the late 60s, and by then I had an IFR rating. What about
>you?
>>When you had about 300 hours, if you were SEL at the time, how much was
>dual,
>>how much PIC? What's typical today?
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

[Teacherjh]

at 305 hours TT, I had 137 dual and 248 PIC. (of which 168 was non-dual), and
had my instrument rating.

Jose

--
(for Email, make the obvious changes in my address)

[AJW]

Interesting, your proportions are just about exactly reversed.
This guy had about 25% of his time as PIC, while at the same stage you had
only 25% as dual, AND you had the higher rating.

I'll bet averages today, for the first few hundred hours, are in between
somewhere. There IS more to learn and the standards have changed, even though
some of the things you probably had to demonstrate for your PPL are no longer
included in the PTS. Certainly very few pilots today have an IR rating with
only 80 hours dual.

G Faris

I don't think I was atypical for the time. Since I was flying in Massachusetts,
IFR was I thought required, and I took off for my IFR flight test with 199.5
hours tt logged! I have friends who flew in the Navy who claimed they were
landing jets on carriers with 200 hours tt.


thanks all for your responses. I did a little more investigation and learned
the pilot in question had logged a bunch of duel before taking his pp flight
test, then gave up flying for a while. I guess when he started again he started
right at the beginning. It explains some of the heavy dual -- some other
factors explain even more.

AJW

[Larry Dighera]

On Thu, 14 Oct 2004 07:45:45 -0400, "John T" > wrote in
>::

>It sounds like he was either a really slow learner with more money
>and patience than skill or he just really liked having an instructor on
>board.

Other factors could be:

1, The length of time it took the pilot to acquire his airman
certificate.

2. The length of time it took the pilot to acquire his 320 total
hours, and thus his currency level at any given time.

3. The pilots degree of self confidence and lack thereof.

....

[Bob Moore]

(AJW) wrote

> I don't think I was atypical for the time. Since I was flying in
> Massachusetts, IFR was I thought required, and I took off for my IFR
> flight test with 199.5 hours tt logged! I have friends who flew in
> the Navy who claimed they were landing jets on carriers with 200
> hours tt.

I did my first carrier landing (T-28) at 115 total flight time.

Bob Moore

[Robert M. Gary]

(AJW) wrote in message >...
> SInce I took my training longer ago than most of you are alive, I'm confused
> about current practices.
>
> I came across a NTSB report that described a pilot with about 320 hours TT, of
> which about 75 were as PIC. The pilot was about half way though his flight
> training for his IRF rating, had a PPL and Class II physical. He was signed off
> on complex SEL aircraft.
>


I have some students like that. They've started and stopped working on
their private many times. Each time was about a 10 year break. As a
result they end up with several hundred hours when they take their
private checkride very little of which is solo (ie PIC).

-Robert, CFi

[G Farris]

I think the question came up with the JFK Jr accident as well - Though I don't
remember the numbers, he must have been at about that level, and some felt his
dual-to-PIC ratio was high, possibly indicating a lack of confidence.

G Faris

[AJW]

>e and PIC time question
>From: (G Farris)
>Date: 10/14/2004 6:23 PM Eastern Daylight Time
>Message-id: >
>
>I think the question came up with the JFK Jr accident as well - Though I
>don't
>remember the numbers, he must have been at about that level, and some felt
>his
>dual-to-PIC ratio was high, possibly indicating a lack of confidence.
>
>G Faris

You're perceptive: I'm using that NTSB report as the basis of a small play. It
happens in the JFK Jr case (I've learned since posting the question) that he
had started training toward his PPL once then abandoned the effort because his
mother had begged him to (she had a premination of him crashing in an airplane
he piloted (See C. Anderson's 'The Day John Died). He was piling on a lot of
time the summer he died, but he had broken an ankle in an ultra light crash on
the Vineyard a few months earlier, so nearly all of his flying since then
(nearly all in the Saratoga) was with an instructor aboard. Those several
events explain some of the seemingly excessive dual time. As a matter of
interest, the only family member who would fly with him, and then only
reluctantly, was his wife. Cousins and uncles outright refused.

I appreciate the statistics and observations many of you had made, thank you.

AJW

[Bob Martin]

AJW wrote:
> SInce I took my training longer ago than most of you are alive, I'm confused
> about current practices.
>
> I came across a NTSB report that described a pilot with about 320 hours TT, of
> which about 75 were as PIC. The pilot was about half way though his flight
> training for his IRF rating, had a PPL and Class II physical. He was signed off
> on complex SEL aircraft.
>
> My own logbook when I had 320 hours tt showed about 80 hours dual, 260 PIC, but
> that was back in the late 60s, and by then I had an IFR rating. What about you?
> When you had about 300 hours, if you were SEL at the time, how much was dual,
> how much PIC? What's typical today?

Well, I'm only at 100 hours right now... going from memory, about 30 or
so of that is dual, maybe 40 is PIC/solo, and the remainder is what I
called "second pilot" since I didn't know what else to call it...
basically, it's time that I spent flying with my dad before I got my
tailwheel endorsement (and therefore couldn't log the time as PIC since
the airplane was tailwheel). Some of it was him teaching me how to land
the plane, and the rest of it was just flying around so I'd get
comfortable with the airplane and show him that I could fly it safely.
Then, after a year or so of that, his CFI friend went up with me and I
got the tailwheel endorsement and a BFR at the same time.