What can I log as XC time?

[Bob]

1) I keep my plane in a hangar at an airport more than 50
nm from the airport nearest my home. I decide to fly it
home for a week (1 hr), and tie it down. I fly locally for
that week (5 hrs), then back to my hangar airport (1 hr).
How much of that can I log as XC time usable for a rating?

2) I decide to take a long multi-day trip. Most days I fly
far more than 50 nm (25 hrs). Some days I fly "locally" to
see the sights and return to the same airport (10 hrs) that
is more than 50 nm from home. Some days I make only a
little progress and land less than 50 nm from the airport of
the previous day, but much farther than 50 nm from my hangar
airport (5hrs). How much of that can I log as XC time
usable for a rating?

[Newps]

Bob wrote:

> 1) I keep my plane in a hangar at an airport more than 50
> nm from the airport nearest my home. I decide to fly it
> home for a week (1 hr), and tie it down. I fly locally for
> that week (5 hrs), then back to my hangar airport (1 hr).
> How much of that can I log as XC time usable for a rating?

All but the 5 hrs if you're worried about it. The rest of us log it
all. I log it ABC-ABD-ABC, on the same date.


>
> 2) I decide to take a long multi-day trip. Most days I fly
> far more than 50 nm (25 hrs). Some days I fly "locally" to
> see the sights and return to the same airport (10 hrs) that
> is more than 50 nm from home. Some days I make only a
> little progress and land less than 50 nm from the airport of
> the previous day, but much farther than 50 nm from my hangar
> airport (5hrs). How much of that can I log as XC time
> usable for a rating?

To be legal as a cross country you have to land at an airport more than
50 miles away. Flying 75 miles out and then back without landing
doesn't count. It's a stupid rule but that's what it is.

[Bob Gardner]

What newps said. The FAA doesn't care about your "hangar" airport, just the
airport you depart from, wherever it is. Read the Part 61 FAQs for more
details on what constitutes a departure airport.

Bob Gardner

"Bob" > wrote in message
...
> 1) I keep my plane in a hangar at an airport more than 50
> nm from the airport nearest my home. I decide to fly it
> home for a week (1 hr), and tie it down. I fly locally for
> that week (5 hrs), then back to my hangar airport (1 hr).
> How much of that can I log as XC time usable for a rating?
>
> 2) I decide to take a long multi-day trip. Most days I fly
> far more than 50 nm (25 hrs). Some days I fly "locally" to
> see the sights and return to the same airport (10 hrs) that
> is more than 50 nm from home. Some days I make only a
> little progress and land less than 50 nm from the airport of
> the previous day, but much farther than 50 nm from my hangar
> airport (5hrs). How much of that can I log as XC time
> usable for a rating?

[Gary Drescher]

"Bob" > wrote in message
...
> 1) I keep my plane in a hangar at an airport more than 50
> nm from the airport nearest my home. I decide to fly it
> home for a week (1 hr), and tie it down. I fly locally for
> that week (5 hrs), then back to my hangar airport (1 hr).
> How much of that can I log as XC time usable for a rating?
>
> 2) I decide to take a long multi-day trip. Most days I fly
> far more than 50 nm (25 hrs). Some days I fly "locally" to
> see the sights and return to the same airport (10 hrs) that
> is more than 50 nm from home. Some days I make only a
> little progress and land less than 50 nm from the airport of
> the previous day, but much farther than 50 nm from my hangar
> airport (5hrs). How much of that can I log as XC time
> usable for a rating?

I don't think the FARs give unambiguous answers to those questions. I think
we just have to use common sense to discern the intent of the regs. I 'd say
that flying locally in sight-seeing circles doesn't count, even if it occurs
in the middle of an XC flight, unless the sightseeing time can't readily be
separated out (that is, I'd probably count an hour of sight-seeing circling
that occurred, without landing, in the middle of a 100nm leg). But if you're
making steady progress from one point to another that's more than 50nm away,
then I'd count every leg, even on a day when you advance less than 50nm.

--Gary

[C J Campbell]

"Newps" > wrote in message
...
>
> To be legal as a cross country you have to land at an airport more than
> 50 miles away.

No, you just have to land at an airport other than the one you departed
from. The 50 nm requirement is for the cross country to count towards
certain certificates and ratings.

[C J Campbell]

"Bob" > wrote in message
...
> 1) I keep my plane in a hangar at an airport more than 50
> nm from the airport nearest my home. I decide to fly it
> home for a week (1 hr), and tie it down. I fly locally for
> that week (5 hrs), then back to my hangar airport (1 hr).
> How much of that can I log as XC time usable for a rating?
>

You can log whatever you think of as a flight.

> 2) I decide to take a long multi-day trip. Most days I fly
> far more than 50 nm (25 hrs). Some days I fly "locally" to
> see the sights and return to the same airport (10 hrs) that
> is more than 50 nm from home. Some days I make only a
> little progress and land less than 50 nm from the airport of
> the previous day, but much farther than 50 nm from my hangar
> airport (5hrs). How much of that can I log as XC time
> usable for a rating?

None of it. If you don't land at another airport, it is not a cross country.
If the other airport is not a straight line distance of 50 nm from the
airport of departure, it doesn't count for most ratings. Theoretically, it
is possible to fly the 150 nm cross country with landings at three airports
for private pilot without ever getting more than 50 nm from the original
airport of departure, but that is a little ridiculous.

[Newps]

C J Campbell wrote:

> "Newps" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>To be legal as a cross country you have to land at an airport more than
>>50 miles away.
>
>
> No, you just have to land at an airport other than the one you departed
> from. The 50 nm requirement is for the cross country to count towards
> certain certificates and ratings.

We're talking about the 50 mile requirement for a cross country. That
was his specific question. He needs to build time. Now, you want to
fly one mile to another airport and log it as cross country that's fine.
But it's irrelavant to the question that was asked.

[Andrew Sarangan]

Bob > wrote in
:

> 1) I keep my plane in a hangar at an airport more than 50
> nm from the airport nearest my home. I decide to fly it
> home for a week (1 hr), and tie it down. I fly locally for
> that week (5 hrs), then back to my hangar airport (1 hr).
> How much of that can I log as XC time usable for a rating?
>
> 2) I decide to take a long multi-day trip. Most days I fly
> far more than 50 nm (25 hrs). Some days I fly "locally" to
> see the sights and return to the same airport (10 hrs) that
> is more than 50 nm from home. Some days I make only a
> little progress and land less than 50 nm from the airport of
> the previous day, but much farther than 50 nm from my hangar
> airport (5hrs). How much of that can I log as XC time
> usable for a rating?



Look up the definition of cross-country flight. It must satisfy several
requirements, such as:
- the flight must include a landing at a point farther than 50NM from the
original point of departure
- the flight must include a landing at a point other than the point of
departure
- the flight must involve navigation (dead reckoning, pilotage, electronic
etc..)

Therefore, your local flights away from your home airport will not count as
xc time because it did not land at an airport other then the point of
departure.


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[Newps]

Andrew Sarangan wrote:

>
> Look up the definition of cross-country flight. It must satisfy several
> requirements, such as:
> - the flight must include a landing at a point farther than 50NM from the
> original point of departure
> - the flight must include a landing at a point other than the point of
> departure
> - the flight must involve navigation (dead reckoning, pilotage, electronic
> etc..)

Is it even possible to satisfy 1 & 2 but not 3?

[C J Campbell]

"Andrew Sarangan" > wrote in message
. 5...
>
> Look up the definition of cross-country flight. It must satisfy several
> requirements, such as:
> - the flight must include a landing at a point farther than 50NM from the
> original point of departure

Where does it say that?

[Morgans]

"Andrew Sarangan" > wrote

Look up the definition of cross-country flight. It must satisfy several
> requirements, such as:
> - the flight must include a landing at a point farther than 50NM from the
> original point of departure
> - the flight must include a landing at a point other than the point of
> departure
> - the flight must involve navigation (dead reckoning, pilotage, electronic
> etc..)
>
> Therefore, your local flights away from your home airport will not count
as
> xc time because it did not land at an airport other then the point of
> departure.

Re-read his post. Carefully, this time.
--
Jim in NC


---
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Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
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[Andrew Sarangan]

"C J Campbell" > wrote in
:

>
> "Andrew Sarangan" > wrote in message
> . 5...
>>
>> Look up the definition of cross-country flight. It must satisfy
>> several requirements, such as:
>> - the flight must include a landing at a point farther than 50NM from
>> the original point of departure
>
> Where does it say that?
>
>
>

61.1(b)(3)

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[Andrew Sarangan]

Newps > wrote in
:

>
>
> Andrew Sarangan wrote:
>
>>
>> Look up the definition of cross-country flight. It must satisfy
>> several requirements, such as:
>> - the flight must include a landing at a point farther than 50NM from
>> the original point of departure
>> - the flight must include a landing at a point other than the point
>> of departure
>> - the flight must involve navigation (dead reckoning, pilotage,
>> electronic etc..)
>
> Is it even possible to satisfy 1 & 2 but not 3?
>

(3) Cross-country time means—

(i) Except as provided in paragraphs (b)(3)(ii) through (b)(3)(vi) of
this section, time acquired during flight—

(A) Conducted by a person who holds a pilot certificate;

(B) Conducted in an aircraft;

(C) That includes a landing at a point other than the point of
departure; and

(D) That involves the use of dead reckoning, pilotage, electronic
navigation aids, radio aids, or other navigation systems to navigate to
the landing point.

ii) For the purpose of meeting the aeronautical experience requirements
(except for a rotorcraft category rating), for a private pilot
certificate (except for a powered parachute category rating), a
commercial pilot certificate, or an instrument rating, or for the
purpose of exercising recreational pilot privileges (except in a
rotorcraft) under §61.101 (c), time acquired during a flight—

(A) Conducted in an appropriate aircraft;

(B) That includes a point of landing that was at least a straight-line
distance of more than 50 nautical miles from the original point of
departure; and

(C) That involves the use of dead reckoning, pilotage, electronic
navigation aids, radio aids, or other navigation systems to navigate to
the landing point.


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[G.R. Patterson III]

Newps wrote:
>
> Andrew Sarangan wrote:
>
> > Look up the definition of cross-country flight. It must satisfy several
> > requirements, such as:
> > - the flight must include a landing at a point farther than 50NM from the
> > original point of departure
> > - the flight must include a landing at a point other than the point of
> > departure
> > - the flight must involve navigation (dead reckoning, pilotage, electronic
> > etc..)
>
> Is it even possible to satisfy 1 & 2 but not 3?

I suppose that it would depend on how you define pilotage. Under certain
exceptionally clear conditions after a weather front passed through, I have been in a
position at 3,000' to see a large landmark which I know to be right beside a
particular airport which is over 50 miles away. Some people might not regard a direct
flight to that airport as pilotage, since it doesn't use intermediate waypoints.
Perhaps the person who wrote that clause is one of these people.

George Patterson
If a man gets into a fight 3,000 miles away from home, he *had* to have
been looking for it.

[Gerald Sylvester]

> To be legal as a cross country you have to land at an airport more than
> 50 miles away. Flying 75 miles out and then back without landing
> doesn't count. It's a stupid rule but that's what it is.

from my understand though, the rules are vague though. What if I fly
from airport A for a touch and go at airport B for 51 nm. I then fly to
airport C that is 25nm and do a bounce and go. I then continue back to
airport A another 25 nm and land. I believe I can count that as all XC.
Or am I wrong and all airports that I land/touch and go at have to
be 50 nm apart?

Gerald

[C J Campbell]

"Andrew Sarangan" > wrote in message
. 5...
> "C J Campbell" > wrote in
> :
>
> >
> > "Andrew Sarangan" > wrote in message
> > . 5...
> >>
> >> Look up the definition of cross-country flight. It must satisfy
> >> several requirements, such as:
> >> - the flight must include a landing at a point farther than 50NM from
> >> the original point of departure
> >
> > Where does it say that?
> >
> >
> >
>
> 61.1(b)(3)

All that says is that the cross country flights required for some (but not
all, by any means) certificates and ratings must be 50 miles. FAR 61.1
defines a cross country as a flight with a landing someplace other than the
airport of departure, no matter how short a distance it is. There are
several regulatory reasons for this. For example, student pilots may be
signed off to make repeated cross country flights under 25 miles.

There is also a special definition of cross country flight for military
pilots which does not involve landing at another airport.

Recreational pilots are specifically limited to cross country flights of
less than 50 nautical miles without an endorsement. Airline transport pilots
are required to have 500 hours of cross country time, but those cross
country flights have no distance requirements.

[C J Campbell]

"Gerald Sylvester" > wrote in message
. com...
> > To be legal as a cross country you have to land at an airport more than
> > 50 miles away. Flying 75 miles out and then back without landing
> > doesn't count. It's a stupid rule but that's what it is.
>
> from my understand though, the rules are vague though. What if I fly
> from airport A for a touch and go at airport B for 51 nm. I then fly to
> airport C that is 25nm and do a bounce and go. I then continue back to
> airport A another 25 nm and land. I believe I can count that as all XC.
> Or am I wrong and all airports that I land/touch and go at have to
> be 50 nm apart?

No, they don't. They can all be one mile apart and the flight will still be
a cross country. Not only that, if you are flying a 50 nm cross country for
the purpose of logging it towards, say, a commercial certificate, then you
can stop at any number of interim airports.

The rules are quite clear. Take the 150 nm cross country for a private pilot
certificate, for example. This cross country flight has its own special
rules and definition. The total distance must be at least 150 nm, but only
one segment between airports must be at least 50 nm. You could meet this
particular cross country requirement by flying to an airport that is 10 nm
away, doing a touch and go, then to an airport 65 miles from that, do a
touch and go, and return to your original point of departure. Out and back
is 150 nm and two of the legs were over 50 nm. Or, you could fly 45 nm from
A to B, 64 nm from B to C, and 45 nm from C to A, for a total distance of
154 miles, one leg being over 50 nm, but none of the airports being more
than 50 nm from the airport of original departure.

[C J Campbell]

"Newps" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> Andrew Sarangan wrote:
>
> >
> > Look up the definition of cross-country flight. It must satisfy several
> > requirements, such as:
> > - the flight must include a landing at a point farther than 50NM from
the
> > original point of departure
> > - the flight must include a landing at a point other than the point of
> > departure
> > - the flight must involve navigation (dead reckoning, pilotage,
electronic
> > etc..)
>
> Is it even possible to satisfy 1 & 2 but not 3?

Of course it is. You simply fly in some random direction, perhaps
blindfolded, until you find a place to land.

The regulation is a little like the IFR currency rules, which require you to
not only fly approaches and holding patterns, but also intercepting and
tracking radio aids or courses. It is very difficult to fly approaches or
holding patterns without also intercepting and tracking courses, but they
put it in the regulations anyway.

[Cub Driver]

I log any flight over 50 NM, and any shorter flight (fewer of these
each year) that requires me to use the chart and GPS.

all the best -- Dan Ford
email: (put Cubdriver in subject line)

Warbird's Forum www.warbirdforum.com
Piper Cub Forum www.pipercubforum.com
Viva Bush! www.vivabush.org

[Andrew Sarangan]

"Morgans" > wrote in
:

>
> "Andrew Sarangan" > wrote
>
> Look up the definition of cross-country flight. It must satisfy
> several
>> requirements, such as:
>> - the flight must include a landing at a point farther than 50NM from
>> the original point of departure
>> - the flight must include a landing at a point other than the point
>> of departure
>> - the flight must involve navigation (dead reckoning, pilotage,
>> electronic etc..)
>>
>> Therefore, your local flights away from your home airport will not
>> count
> as
>> xc time because it did not land at an airport other then the point of
>> departure.
>
> Re-read his post. Carefully, this time.


Please, if you have something useful to say, please do. Don't be so
patronizing.

The question was whether he can log XC time when flying locally (ie take
off and land at the same airport). It doesn't matter whether that
airport happens to be his normal home airport or not. If you do not land
at a point farther than 50NM from where you took off, you cannot count
that as xc experience for most ratings.



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[Newps]

Andrew Sarangan wrote:

> Newps > wrote in
> :
>
>
>>
>>Andrew Sarangan wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Look up the definition of cross-country flight. It must satisfy
>>>several requirements, such as:
>>>- the flight must include a landing at a point farther than 50NM from
>>>the original point of departure
>>>- the flight must include a landing at a point other than the point
>>>of departure
>>>- the flight must involve navigation (dead reckoning, pilotage,
>>>electronic etc..)
>>
>>Is it even possible to satisfy 1 & 2 but not 3?
>>
>
>
> (3) Cross-country time means—

The point is can you land at some distant airport and not navigate to
it. Why even put that stupid statement in there?

[Newps]

G.R. Patterson III wrote:

>
> Newps wrote:
>
>>Andrew Sarangan wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Look up the definition of cross-country flight. It must satisfy several
>>>requirements, such as:
>>>- the flight must include a landing at a point farther than 50NM from the
>>>original point of departure
>>>- the flight must include a landing at a point other than the point of
>>>departure
>>>- the flight must involve navigation (dead reckoning, pilotage, electronic
>>>etc..)
>>
>>Is it even possible to satisfy 1 & 2 but not 3?
>
>
> I suppose that it would depend on how you define pilotage. Under certain
> exceptionally clear conditions after a weather front passed through, I have been in a
> position at 3,000' to see a large landmark which I know to be right beside a
> particular airport which is over 50 miles away. Some people might not regard a direct
> flight to that airport as pilotage, since it doesn't use intermediate waypoints.
> Perhaps the person who wrote that clause is one of these people.

That is absolutely pilotage.

[Newps]

Gerald Sylvester wrote:

>> To be legal as a cross country you have to land at an airport more
>> than 50 miles away. Flying 75 miles out and then back without landing
>> doesn't count. It's a stupid rule but that's what it is.
>
>
> from my understand though, the rules are vague though. What if I fly
> from airport A for a touch and go at airport B for 51 nm.

Rule satisfied. That's a cross country.

I then fly to
> airport C that is 25nm and do a bounce and go. I then continue back to
> airport A another 25 nm and land.

The whole thing is a cross country.

[C Kingsbury]

"C J Campbell" > wrote in message
...
>
> airport of departure, it doesn't count for most ratings. Theoretically, it
> is possible to fly the 150 nm cross country with landings at three
airports
> for private pilot without ever getting more than 50 nm from the original
> airport of departure, but that is a little ridiculous.
>

I did my long private solo XC flying from BED-SFM-EEN-BED, basically a big
triangle. EEN is 50nm on the dot from BED, and SFM is 65ish, so I was never
more than 65nm away.

-cwk.

[C Kingsbury]

"Newps" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> > (3) Cross-country time means—
>
> The point is can you land at some distant airport and not navigate to
> it. Why even put that stupid statement in there?
>

Maybe to get their revenge on "Wrong Way" Corrigan?

-cwk.

[Mike O'Malley]

"C Kingsbury" > wrote in message
ink.net...
>
> "Newps" > wrote in message
> ...
> > The point is can you land at some distant airport and not navigate to
> > it. Why even put that stupid statement in there?
> >
>
> Maybe to get their revenge on "Wrong Way" Corrigan?
>

But he used dead-reckoning. He was really wrong, but it doesn't say
anything about how accurate your navigation has to be.

[Hilton]

Newps wrote:
> The point is can you land at some distant airport and not navigate to
> it. Why even put that stupid statement in there?

1. You take off, ignore headings and ground features etc, just fly for an
hour, see an airport, land (I'm sure we'd all count this an XC anyway)

2. You fly in formation, spend 100% of the time looking at the other
airplane, land - technically not a XC by navigation, pilotage.


I'm not stating my position, agreeing or disagreeing, just thinking of
possibilities.

Hilton

[Newps]

C Kingsbury wrote:
> "Newps" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>
>>>(3) Cross-country time means—
>>
>>The point is can you land at some distant airport and not navigate to
>>it. Why even put that stupid statement in there?
>>
>
>
> Maybe to get their revenge on "Wrong Way" Corrigan?

Yeah, but it doesn't say correctly navigate.

[C J Campbell]

"Mike O'Malley" > wrote in message
...
> "C Kingsbury" > wrote in message
> ink.net...
> >
> > "Newps" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > > The point is can you land at some distant airport and not navigate to
> > > it. Why even put that stupid statement in there?
> > >
> >
> > Maybe to get their revenge on "Wrong Way" Corrigan?
> >
>
> But he used dead-reckoning. He was really wrong, but it doesn't say
> anything about how accurate your navigation has to be.

If you believe Corrigan was actually lost, I have some nice sunny desert
resort property on the Olympic Peninsula to sell you.

[Teacherjh]

If, somewhere in your flight you take off from A and land at B it's cross
country. If somewhere in your flight you take off from A and somewhere in that
same flight you land at B where B is more than 50 nm away from A, then the
flight is cross country which can be counted towards most ratings that require
it. (the 50nm thing).

The flight can occur over several days. A and B do not have to be the
beginning and end of your flight. Stuff can happen before, between, and after
A and B. The whole flight is still cross country.

The thing hinges on what you call a "flight", and it's your call. There is
room for reasonable differences in what you might want to call a flight, and
what I might want to call a flight, but the regs accomodate both.

In fact (as far as I can tell) you can log an entire ordinary month's worth of
air time as a single flight, and if ever you landed more than 50nm from any
place you took off from, you can log the entire thing as cross country. Now
this much of a stretch might raise the eyebrows of the FAA (and eventually
prompt more rulemaking), but nothing in the regs that I'm aware of would
prevent the flight from being used as XC for ratings. It might even be quite
reasonable (say, you took a month to travel from Bangor Maine to San Diego
California, and did it in short hops, including some barnstorming, over the
course of a month).

You don't even have to log consistently. For example, some out and back
flights I log as one flight, some I log as two. (logging them as two, if one
leg is all night, makes it easier to infer a night takeoff - aside - the FAA
requires night takeoffs for currency, but most logbooks don't provide a column
for takeoffs, though they provide one for landings, though they don't provide
one for night landings...)

Jose

--
(for Email, make the obvious changes in my address)

[Mike O'Malley]

"C J Campbell" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Mike O'Malley" > wrote in message
> ...
> > "C Kingsbury" > wrote in message
> > ink.net...
> > >
> > > "Newps" > wrote in message
> > > ...
> > > > The point is can you land at some distant airport and not navigate
to
> > > > it. Why even put that stupid statement in there?
> > > >
> > >
> > > Maybe to get their revenge on "Wrong Way" Corrigan?
> > >
> >
> > But he used dead-reckoning. He was really wrong, but it doesn't say
> > anything about how accurate your navigation has to be.
>
> If you believe Corrigan was actually lost, I have some nice sunny desert
> resort property on the Olympic Peninsula to sell you.

Is that anywhere near a nice beach?

Damn, forgot the :-) again. Amazing what a lack of inflection can do to a
sentence.

BTW- I realize he wasn't really lost, but was denied permission to attempt
the flight and used that as his official excuse.

Mike O'Malley

[Cub Driver]

On Sat, 16 Oct 2004 10:39:05 -0600, Newps > wrote:

>The point is can you land at some distant airport and not navigate to
>it. Why even put that stupid statement in there?

Sure you can! Get in the airplane, take off, fly in a generally
straight line in a direction chose at random, spot an airport ("looky
there! 4000 feet of asphalt in a straight line!"), and land. No
navigation involved!

Oh, all right, if you want to count following a compass line as
navigation...

all the best -- Dan Ford
email: (put Cubdriver in subject line)

Warbird's Forum www.warbirdforum.com
Piper Cub Forum www.pipercubforum.com
Viva Bush! www.vivabush.org

[Cub Driver]

On Sat, 16 Oct 2004 14:05:46 -0500, "Mike O'Malley"
> wrote:

>But he used dead-reckoning. He was really wrong, but it doesn't say
>anything about how accurate your navigation has to be.

Douglas Corrigan knew perfectly well where he was going, and he got
there by navigating.

(For those of a younger generation, Corrigan was refused permission to
fly from New York to Ireland, so he declared that instead he was
flying to Los Angeles, and behold! He landed in Ireland by mistake. He
even wrote a book about it. Life was much more innocent in those
days.)

all the best -- Dan Ford
email: (put Cubdriver in subject line)

Warbird's Forum www.warbirdforum.com
Piper Cub Forum www.pipercubforum.com
Viva Bush! www.vivabush.org

[Peter Clark]

On Fri, 15 Oct 2004 23:03:56 -0700, "C J Campbell"
> wrote:

>The rules are quite clear. Take the 150 nm cross country for a private pilot
>certificate, for example. This cross country flight has its own special
>rules and definition. The total distance must be at least 150 nm, but only
>one segment between airports must be at least 50 nm. You could meet this
>particular cross country requirement by flying to an airport that is 10 nm
>away, doing a touch and go, then to an airport 65 miles from that, do a
>touch and go, and return to your original point of departure. Out and back
>is 150 nm and two of the legs were over 50 nm. Or, you could fly 45 nm from
>A to B, 64 nm from B to C, and 45 nm from C to A, for a total distance of
>154 miles, one leg being over 50 nm, but none of the airports being more
>than 50 nm from the airport of original departure.

Except that 61.109(a)(5)(ii) explicitly calls for full-stop landings
for the PPL long XC.

"(ii) One solo cross-country flight of at least 150 nautical miles
total distance, with full-stop landings at a minimum of three points,
and one segment of the flight consisting of a straight-line distance
of at least 50 nautical miles between the takeoff and landing
locations; and"

[C J Campbell]

"Peter Clark" > wrote in message
...
> On Fri, 15 Oct 2004 23:03:56 -0700, "C J Campbell"
> > wrote:
>
> >The rules are quite clear. Take the 150 nm cross country for a private
pilot
> >certificate, for example. This cross country flight has its own special
> >rules and definition. The total distance must be at least 150 nm, but
only
> >one segment between airports must be at least 50 nm. You could meet this
> >particular cross country requirement by flying to an airport that is 10
nm
> >away, doing a touch and go, then to an airport 65 miles from that, do a
> >touch and go, and return to your original point of departure. Out and
back
> >is 150 nm and two of the legs were over 50 nm. Or, you could fly 45 nm
from
> >A to B, 64 nm from B to C, and 45 nm from C to A, for a total distance of
> >154 miles, one leg being over 50 nm, but none of the airports being more
> >than 50 nm from the airport of original departure.
>
> Except that 61.109(a)(5)(ii) explicitly calls for full-stop landings
> for the PPL long XC.
>
> "(ii) One solo cross-country flight of at least 150 nautical miles
> total distance, with full-stop landings at a minimum of three points,
> and one segment of the flight consisting of a straight-line distance
> of at least 50 nautical miles between the takeoff and landing
> locations; and"
>

Yeah, and I was the one that pointed it out in a previous post.... Oh, well.

[Peter Clark]

On Sun, 17 Oct 2004 07:40:51 -0700, "C J Campbell"
> wrote:

>
>"Peter Clark" > wrote in message
...
>> On Fri, 15 Oct 2004 23:03:56 -0700, "C J Campbell"
>> > wrote:
>>
>> >The rules are quite clear. Take the 150 nm cross country for a private
>pilot
>> >certificate, for example. This cross country flight has its own special
>> >rules and definition. The total distance must be at least 150 nm, but
>only
>> >one segment between airports must be at least 50 nm. You could meet this
>> >particular cross country requirement by flying to an airport that is 10
>nm
>> >away, doing a touch and go, then to an airport 65 miles from that, do a
>> >touch and go, and return to your original point of departure. Out and
>back
>> >is 150 nm and two of the legs were over 50 nm. Or, you could fly 45 nm
>from
>> >A to B, 64 nm from B to C, and 45 nm from C to A, for a total distance of
>> >154 miles, one leg being over 50 nm, but none of the airports being more
>> >than 50 nm from the airport of original departure.
>>
>> Except that 61.109(a)(5)(ii) explicitly calls for full-stop landings
>> for the PPL long XC.
>>
>> "(ii) One solo cross-country flight of at least 150 nautical miles
>> total distance, with full-stop landings at a minimum of three points,
>> and one segment of the flight consisting of a straight-line distance
>> of at least 50 nautical miles between the takeoff and landing
>> locations; and"
>>
>
>Yeah, and I was the one that pointed it out in a previous post.... Oh, well.

Yeah, and I was referring to the part of your post containing "You
could meet this particular cross country requirement by flying to an
airport that is 10 nm away, doing a touch and go..". Unless I read
your post incorrectly, you appear to be indicating that T&G on the
Private Solo Long XC was acceptable, or you meant to type stop and go
and did touch instead.

[Stan Prevost]

"C J Campbell" > wrote in message
...
>

> The rules are quite clear. Take the 150 nm cross country for a private
pilot
> certificate, for example. This cross country flight has its own special
> rules and definition. The total distance must be at least 150 nm, but only
> one segment between airports must be at least 50 nm. You could meet this
> particular cross country requirement by flying to an airport that is 10 nm
> away, doing a touch and go, then to an airport 65 miles from that, do a
> touch and go, and return to your original point of departure. Out and back
> is 150 nm and two of the legs were over 50 nm. Or, you could fly 45 nm
from
> A to B, 64 nm from B to C, and 45 nm from C to A, for a total distance of
> 154 miles, one leg being over 50 nm, but none of the airports being more
> than 50 nm from the airport of original departure.
>
>

Chris, I just can't agree with the very last part of that, for the private
pilot certificate (or commercial, or instrument rating), unless I miss your
meaning, which seems quite clear. Yes, there are specific rules for the
private pilot XC, but they do not provide an exception to the requirements
of 61.1. The flight must meet 61.1(b)(3) as well as 61.109. Part 61.109
defines the experience requirements for cross-country flights, so the time
aquired on the student-private-pilot XC flights must meet the definition of
cross-country time as well as complying with any additional requirements for
the flights, in the absence of a specific exception.

(3) Cross-country time means-

....

(ii) For the purpose of meeting the aeronautical experience requirements
(except for a rotorcraft category rating), for a private pilot certificate
(except for a powered parachute category rating), a commercial pilot
certificate, or an instrument rating, or for the purpose of exercising
recreational pilot privileges (except in a rotorcraft) under §61.101 (c),
time acquired during a flight-

(A) Conducted in an appropriate aircraft;

(B) That includes a point of landing that was at least a straight-line
distance of more than 50 nautical miles from the original point of
departure; and

(C) That involves the use of dead reckoning, pilotage, electronic navigation
aids, radio aids, or other navigation systems to navigate to the landing
point.



I am unable today to reach John Lynch's Part 61 FAQ on the 'net. The latest
one I have stored on my computer, which is nearly two years old, makes it
clear that the flight must include a point of landing that is more than 50
nm from the original point of departure.

Also, I disagree with the T&G aspect of your post, since the reg requires
full-stop landings at a minimum of three points, but someone else has
already posted on that.

Aside: As to the general question of multi-leg and multi-day XC flights,
Q&A #433 addresses the subject, but it does not include the question of
local flight time at an intermediate airport.

Another aside: I think that following radar vectors is another means of
proceeding to a destination airport that does not meet the navigation
systems requirement of the rule.

Stan

[C J Campbell]

"Peter Clark" > wrote in message
...
> On Sun, 17 Oct 2004 07:40:51 -0700, "C J Campbell"
> > wrote:
>
> >
> >"Peter Clark" > wrote in message
> ...
> >> On Fri, 15 Oct 2004 23:03:56 -0700, "C J Campbell"
> >> > wrote:
> >>
> >> >The rules are quite clear. Take the 150 nm cross country for a private
> >pilot
> >> >certificate, for example. This cross country flight has its own
special
> >> >rules and definition. The total distance must be at least 150 nm, but
> >only
> >> >one segment between airports must be at least 50 nm. You could meet
this
> >> >particular cross country requirement by flying to an airport that is
10
> >nm
> >> >away, doing a touch and go, then to an airport 65 miles from that, do
a
> >> >touch and go, and return to your original point of departure. Out and
> >back
> >> >is 150 nm and two of the legs were over 50 nm. Or, you could fly 45 nm
> >from
> >> >A to B, 64 nm from B to C, and 45 nm from C to A, for a total distance
of
> >> >154 miles, one leg being over 50 nm, but none of the airports being
more
> >> >than 50 nm from the airport of original departure.
> >>
> >> Except that 61.109(a)(5)(ii) explicitly calls for full-stop landings
> >> for the PPL long XC.
> >>
> >> "(ii) One solo cross-country flight of at least 150 nautical miles
> >> total distance, with full-stop landings at a minimum of three points,
> >> and one segment of the flight consisting of a straight-line distance
> >> of at least 50 nautical miles between the takeoff and landing
> >> locations; and"
> >>
> >
> >Yeah, and I was the one that pointed it out in a previous post.... Oh,
well.
>
> Yeah, and I was referring to the part of your post containing "You
> could meet this particular cross country requirement by flying to an
> airport that is 10 nm away, doing a touch and go..". Unless I read
> your post incorrectly, you appear to be indicating that T&G on the
> Private Solo Long XC was acceptable, or you meant to type stop and go
> and did touch instead.

No, you read it right. It is just embarrassing to point out in one post that
a full stop is necessary and then go right ahead and forget that in the
next.

[Peter Clark]

On Sun, 17 Oct 2004 10:56:45 -0700, "C J Campbell"
> wrote:


>No, you read it right. It is just embarrassing to point out in one post that
>a full stop is necessary and then go right ahead and forget that in the
>next.

Ah, OK, sorry - I misinterpreted where you were applying the irony.
But anyway, brainfarts happen to us all.

On to other things...
P

[OtisWinslow]

Any time you land at an airport other than the one you took off
from .. you can log it as X/C. However .. it must be at least 50nm
for it to count toward the X/C requirments toward your PPL, CPL, Instr.
For simplicity I just forego logging it unless it's 50nm.


"Bob" > wrote in message
...
> 1) I keep my plane in a hangar at an airport more than 50
> nm from the airport nearest my home. I decide to fly it
> home for a week (1 hr), and tie it down. I fly locally for
> that week (5 hrs), then back to my hangar airport (1 hr).
> How much of that can I log as XC time usable for a rating?
>
> 2) I decide to take a long multi-day trip. Most days I fly
> far more than 50 nm (25 hrs). Some days I fly "locally" to
> see the sights and return to the same airport (10 hrs) that
> is more than 50 nm from home. Some days I make only a
> little progress and land less than 50 nm from the airport of
> the previous day, but much farther than 50 nm from my hangar
> airport (5hrs). How much of that can I log as XC time
> usable for a rating?

[Bob]

Andrew Sarangan > wrote:

>The question was whether he can log XC time when flying locally (ie take
>off and land at the same airport). It doesn't matter whether that
>airport happens to be his normal home airport or not. If you do not land
>at a point farther than 50NM from where you took off, you cannot count
>that as xc experience for most ratings.

That wasn't really my question. My question, phrased
differently, was: what is an "original point of departure"
under 61.1's definition of "Cross Country Time" used "for
the purpose of meeting the aeronautical experience
requirements."

You seem to imply that either (a) landing, or (b) staying
overnight or (c) staying multiple nights changes your
original point of departure.

In question (a) I wondered if I could keep my hangar airport
as my original point of departure for a week long trip to a
50+ nm new location near my place of residence.

Ini (b) I wondered what happens if I'm flying a long XC to
Oshkosh or California, but don't manage 50 nm of progress
some days. Is the entire flight loggable as XC?

To put this into context,

1) It's pretty clear that simply landing does not reset your
OPOD, so you can get gas 25 nm out on a 50nm+ flight and log
all of it.

2) The FAQ says the student could get stuck for a few days
due to weather, and still log all of the time without
changing his OPOD.

3) The FAQ also says a student can even fly 26 nm south "for
the purpose of repositioning the aircraft" call that airport
his new OPOD then fly 50+ nm north (but only 25+ north of
his first airport) and log THAT as XC.

[Teacherjh]

The "original point of departure" is up to you to determine. When you
terminate whatever you are calling a "flight", you change your OPD. But what
you call a "flight" is also up to you. A flight can consist of multiple legs
over many days.

What the FAQ is silent on is, in the case of repositioning for the purpose of
making a cross country flight, whether the repositioning leg (before the new
OPD) can be counted as XC time. I would say yes, since a repositioning leg
after the 50nm XC could be, and there's no real difference between the two.

One of the maddening things about the FAQ and about answers from the FAA that
I've read is that they very carefully don't answer the question that was asked,
while filling the page with lots of text.

Jose

--
(for Email, make the obvious changes in my address)

[Newps]

Bob wrote:


>
> In question (a) I wondered if I could keep my hangar airport
> as my original point of departure for a week long trip to a
> 50+ nm new location near my place of residence.
>
> Ini (b) I wondered what happens if I'm flying a long XC to
> Oshkosh or California, but don't manage 50 nm of progress
> some days. Is the entire flight loggable as XC?
>

Don't make this more difficult than it has to be. It doesn't matter
where you live, where the plane is kept, where you get gas. If you take
off and then at some point during the flight land at a point that is
more than 50 miles away that is a cross country. Land every 5 miles if
you wish but once you land more than 50 miles from the original point it
becomes a cross country. I personally keep different days flights as
seperate but you could count a 10 day trip, flying each day, as one long
cross country trip for logging purposes.

[Bob]

Newps > wrote:

>Don't make this more difficult than it has to be. It doesn't matter
>where you live, where the plane is kept, where you get gas. If you take
>off and then at some point during the flight land at a point that is
>more than 50 miles away that is a cross country.

You're trying to make it simple, but then you say "if you
take off" and then say "at some point during the flight" but
you don't tell me what you think a "flight" is or a "take
off."

> Land every 5 miles if
>you wish but once you land more than 50 miles from the original point it
>becomes a cross country.

And here you refer to the "original point." A "take off"
can't reset the "original point of departure" Staying
overnight can't reset the OPOD. So what does?

Let me rephrase the first question again. I consider my
hangar airport to be my original point of departure for a
multi-day (1 week) XC "flight" in which I just happened to
land and stay at an airport near my home. I flew some time
in that local area more than 50 nm from the hangar airport,
but less than 50 nm from the airport where I tied down for
the week. I considered all that time to be one long flight
more than 50 nm from home, requiring the same skills for
flying there that it took to navigate there from my OPOD at
the hangar airport. Question 1 was: can I log it all as XC
time? If not, why not? Quite honestly, the flying I did
there required far more XC skill than flying 51 nm from my
hangar airport.

I'll rephrase question 2, also. I'm flying from my home to
Oshkosh and fly 300 miles, then land. The next day I want
to fly another 300 miles towards my goal, but weather forces
me to land 25 farther along. I consider the second day to
be part of a single long XC flight to Oshkosh. Should I
(can I) log the 25 mile stretch as XC time? If on day 3 I
have to turn back to the day 2 airport because a front
prevents my continued progess towards Oshkosh, can I (should
I) log that as XC time?

The answer depends on my OPOD, and my question is basically
what is it legal to call an OPOD and what is it not. In
case 1 I had reached a destination (near my home) but hadn't
fulfilled the purpose of the flight or reached my "true
destination" (visiting other airports near my home. In case
2 I was still trying to reach my destination (Oshkosh).

What factors can I use to decide if I should "reset" my
OPOD. We all agree just landing doesn't reset it, and the
FAA says a new day doesn't reset it. Does anything reset
it, or is it entirely up to me? Where do those here think
the reset should occur?

> I personally keep different days flights as
>seperate but you could count a 10 day trip, flying each day, as one long
>cross country trip for logging purposes.

So you'd see it as accepatble to log all the time in both
cases as XC?

[zatatime]

On Mon, 18 Oct 2004 15:48:59 -0400, Bob >
wrote:

>> I personally keep different days flights as
>>seperate but you could count a 10 day trip, flying each day, as one long
>>cross country trip for logging purposes.
>
>So you'd see it as accepatble to log all the time in both
>cases as XC?


I don't think he's considering using the trip for a certificate or
rating, so the 50nm rule doesn't apply to that situation.

z

[Teacherjh]

>>
You're trying to make it simple, but then you say "if you
take off" and then say "at some point during the flight" but
you don't tell me what you think a "flight" is or a "take
off."
<<

I'm not the OR but...

"take off" means to leave the ground and begin flying. "Flight" is defined by
you, but presumably begins at a takeoff and ends at a landing. The landing
cannot occur before the takeoff. Other than that, what happens in between is
irrelevant. You can even land, get out of the plane, let somebody else fly the
plane for a while without you (logging that as a separate flight) and then
continue your original flight, without resetting your OPD. It's like Michigan
or Pakistan - not contiguous but one entity.

>>
Q1
I consider my
hangar airport to be my original point of departure for a
multi-day (1 week) XC "flight" in which I just happened to
land and stay at an airport near my home. I flew some time
in that local area more than 50 nm from the hangar airport,
but less than 50 nm from the airport where I tied down for
the week. I considered all that time to be one long flight
<<

In that case it =is= one long flight.

>> can I log it all as XC time?

Yes. I probably wouldn't (in which case I'd split my "flight" into three parts
for clarity to me), but under some cicrumstances I might log it all as XC.

>>
I'll rephrase question 2, also. I'm flying from my home to
Oshkosh and fly 300 miles, then land. The next day I want
to fly another 300 miles towards my goal, but weather forces
me to land 25 farther along. I consider the second day to
be part of a single long XC flight to Oshkosh. Should I
(can I) log the 25 mile stretch as XC time? If on day 3 I
have to turn back to the day 2 airport because a front
prevents my continued progess towards Oshkosh, can I (should
I) log that as XC time?

The answer depends on my OPOD, and my question is basically
what is it legal to call an OPOD and what is it not.
<<

Yes, and yes. The OPD is entirely up to you. What you call a "flight" is also
entirely up to you. You can reset your OPD any time you like.

Jose



--
(for Email, make the obvious changes in my address)

[SelwayKid]

Bob > wrote in message >...
> 1) I keep my plane in a hangar at an airport more than 50
> nm from the airport nearest my home. I decide to fly it
> home for a week (1 hr), and tie it down. I fly locally for
> that week (5 hrs), then back to my hangar airport (1 hr).
> How much of that can I log as XC time usable for a rating?
>
> 2) I decide to take a long multi-day trip. Most days I fly
> far more than 50 nm (25 hrs). Some days I fly "locally" to
> see the sights and return to the same airport (10 hrs) that
> is more than 50 nm from home. Some days I make only a
> little progress and land less than 50 nm from the airport of
> the previous day, but much farther than 50 nm from my hangar
> airport (5hrs). How much of that can I log as XC time
> usable for a rating?


What is the rating you are after? The FAR's spell it out pretty
clearly. If you land at an airport or other place then where you take
off from, it is clearly a cross country flight. Yeah yeah I know.....
there are those who will argue the point but they can only see as far
as what is described in the FAR's and that only applies to those
flights needed to meet a particular requirement for a rating and that
is for Private or Commercial pilot, or the IFR XC. For the rest of it,
a 5 mile flight is XC. Outside of the specific regulation, its all
semantics.

[Jose]

> What is the rating you are after? The FAR's spell it out pretty
> clearly. If you land at an airport or other place then where you take
> off from, it is clearly a cross country flight.

Since (aside from one's own pleasure) the point of logging a flight as XC is for ratings, I log as XC only flights that qualify under the 50nm rule. It makes it easier to count later.

Jose

[Bob]

(SelwayKid) wrote:

>What is the rating you are after?

It will probably just confuse you, but if you really want to
know, it's 1) insurance 2) commercial airplane 3) Sport CFI

>The FAR's spell it out pretty
>clearly. If you land at an airport or other place then where you take
>off from, it is clearly a cross country flight.

But I posted "50 nm" and "usable for a rating" several times
to make it clear what type of XC time I wanted to log.

>Yeah yeah I know.....
>there are those who will argue the point but they can only see as far
>as what is described in the FAR's and that only applies to those
>flights needed to meet a particular requirement for a rating and that
>is for Private or Commercial pilot, or the IFR XC. For the rest of it,
>a 5 mile flight is XC. Outside of the specific regulation, its all
>semantics.

But I'm interested in the "specific regulation"

[SelwayKid]

Jose > wrote in message >...
> > What is the rating you are after? The FAR's spell it out pretty
> > clearly. If you land at an airport or other place then where you take
> > off from, it is clearly a cross country flight.
>
> Since (aside from one's own pleasure) the point of logging a flight as XC is for ratings, I log as XC only flights that qualify under the 50nm rule. It makes it easier to count later.
>
> Jose
Jose
The FAR's are pretty specific about XC logging for a rating. Aside
from that, there is no requirement to log any time except to prove
recency or qualification for a particular rating. We can always
nit-pick the finer points later but I do see your point. Problem is
after you already have all the ratings and forget to log time. I
suspect I've lost a thousand hours in the log from pure laziness in
that regard. When you are flying 12-14 hour days you are too damned
tired to fool with a logbook as you head for a shower and bed!
Cheers
Ol Shy & Bashful

[Newps]

Bob wrote:

> Newps > wrote:
>
>
>>Don't make this more difficult than it has to be. It doesn't matter
>>where you live, where the plane is kept, where you get gas. If you take
>>off and then at some point during the flight land at a point that is
>>more than 50 miles away that is a cross country.
>
>
> You're trying to make it simple, but then you say "if you
> take off" and then say "at some point during the flight" but
> you don't tell me what you think a "flight" is or a "take
> off."

You're kidding right? A flight is anything you want it to be. And
you're not seriously asking what a takeoff might be are you Mr. Clinton?

[SelwayKid]

Bob > wrote in message >...
> 1) I keep my plane in a hangar at an airport more than 50
> nm from the airport nearest my home. I decide to fly it
> home for a week (1 hr), and tie it down. I fly locally for
> that week (5 hrs), then back to my hangar airport (1 hr).
> How much of that can I log as XC time usable for a rating?

Bob
OK you fly it more than 50nm from A-B, then locally but you don't say
if you landed anywhere else. So, if you flew from A-B, then locally
and never touched down anyplace else, then flew B-A, you log 2 hours
of XC to meet the criteria of whatever rating you are alluding to.

>
> 2) I decide to take a long multi-day trip. Most days I fly
> far more than 50 nm (25 hrs). Some days I fly "locally" to
> see the sights and return to the same airport (10 hrs) that
> is more than 50 nm from home. Some days I make only a
> little progress and land less than 50 nm from the airport of
> the previous day, but much farther than 50 nm from my hangar
> airport (5hrs). How much of that can I log as XC time
> usable for a rating?
Your hangar (base) airport doesn't mean anything in this question. For
regulatory purposes, and it is stated very specifically, from the
point of takeoff to the point of landing as the distance for XC for a
specific rating.
It would appear that you have done all of the required flights and XC
time for whatever rating you are after (assuming you are not trying to
ambush me with finer points of IFR or ATP or whatever). Are you trying
to finesse the FARS or are you an attorney looking for an out for an
errant pilot client?
After all, cross country can be 1km in a local charity fun run. How
does that apply to aviation? Check the definitions. Then it becomes a
matter of how deep are your pockets for the legal fees while they
argue it......

[Bob]

Newps > wrote:

>You're kidding right? A flight is anything you want it to be. And
>you're not seriously asking what a takeoff might be are you Mr. Clinton?

I knew I'd get an answer like this when I wrote it. I was
emphasizing how difficult it is to figure out what a
regulation means and trying to pin you down.

The point of my question was to ask what *you* (and others
here) think it means and what you think the *FAA* thinks it
means. Telling me "A flight is anything you want it to be"
implies that I can log almost everything I've ever flown as
XC time during one long "flight." I don't think the FAA
would agree regardless of my personal opinion, and their
opinion has more weight than mine does. Even if I think it
was all one long flight, I don't think a DPE will. There
must be some guidelines on this, and that's what I was
trying to get to.

[Jose]

> I'm
> just wondering if my conception of what is a cross country
> flight is correct.

There's no such concept as "correct" in this case. It would imply that there's only one way (or one set of ways) to look at any particular leg.

Somebody upthread mused that ones entire flight career could be considered one long cross country, and "surely the FAA didn't have this in mind". Well, to my knowledge it hasn't been tested in court, but (absent a clever use of careless and
reckless) it is not against the rules. It's also not unimaginably unreasonable either.

> For me, if I take off for a place a
> thousand miles away, every bit of the long trip is XC,
> requiring navigation, pilotage, and all the skills. It does
> not matter if I only fly 25 miles some days, and 300 miles
> on other days or split it up as 150 miles the first day and
> 175 the second. It's all part of the same long XC.

If that's how you view it, then that's how you log it. You count the time.

You see, logging is an imperfect art, and hours in a logbook do not equate well to "experience gained". Imperfections (or imprecision) in whether a particular hour was cross country pale in comparison to the difference between flying 100 hours, and
flying the same hour 100 times, as it relates to how much "better" a pilot one is afterwards, and the point of a logbook (to the FAA) is to measure, in some way, pilot experience (and to infer quality, albeit imperfectly) for the purpose of flight
privelages (or rights, I won't get into that here :)

The same kind of issue comes up when logging "actual" (IFR) time. Just how soupy does it need to be? And what if you are "in and out"?

Here's one rule I use for IFR time: If I enter a cloud at any point in the flight, then the flight gets at least .1 actual in the logbook, even if I was only in for five seconds. It's my way of noting that I was in fact in cloud that flight. I try
to compensate by not logging .2 or more unless I'm clearly past .2, but it doesn't really matter because there are so many other vaguearies involved.

So, break your trip (what's a "trip"?) into as many or as few legs as you like, and log what feels right to you as XC or as local. If you do this, you'll have some reasoning behind whatever you log, and I think that's all the FAA is after.

(is it cross country if you land at the same airport, but a different runway? Suppose it's a really big airport? :)

Jose

[Andrew Sarangan]

Bob > wrote in
:

> Newps > wrote:
>
>>You're kidding right? A flight is anything you want it to be. And
>>you're not seriously asking what a takeoff might be are you Mr.
Clinton?
>
> I knew I'd get an answer like this when I wrote it. I was
> emphasizing how difficult it is to figure out what a
> regulation means and trying to pin you down.
>
> The point of my question was to ask what *you* (and others
> here) think it means and what you think the *FAA* thinks it
> means. Telling me "A flight is anything you want it to be"
> implies that I can log almost everything I've ever flown as
> XC time during one long "flight." I don't think the FAA
> would agree regardless of my personal opinion, and their
> opinion has more weight than mine does. Even if I think it
> was all one long flight, I don't think a DPE will. There
> must be some guidelines on this, and that's what I was
> trying to get to.
>
>
>


I personally would not log a flight, nor allow my student to log a
flight as xc, if we did not land at an airport farther than 50NM from
our home base without stopping at an intermediate point, ie., landing
every 25 miles does not count as xc, and flying a 50NM leg within a 25NM
radius of our home airport does not count as xc. I know this is not what
the regs say, but I hold myself and my students to a higher standard. I
also believe this was the intent of the regs, even though the exact
wording leaves room for interpretation.



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[Gig Giacona]

When Rutan did the around the world with no refueling I wonder if he logged
it as XC? Makes you wonder....

[Ron Natalie]

Gig Giacona wrote:
> When Rutan did the around the world with no refueling I wonder if he logged
> it as XC? Makes you wonder....
>
>
216.1 hour local flight. 1 landing, full stop. :-)

[Jose]

> [Burt Rutan:] 216.1 hour local flight. 1 landing, full stop. :-)

Unless he's an ATP or military. Then it's XC.

Jose

[Andrew Sarangan]

"Gig Giacona" > wrote in
:

> When Rutan did the around the world with no refueling I wonder if he
> logged it as XC? Makes you wonder....
>
>

Why would Rutan care about logging xc? Is he working towards a certificate
or rating?


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[Peter Duniho]

"Jose" > wrote in message
om...
>> [Burt Rutan:] 216.1 hour local flight. 1 landing, full stop. :-)
>
> Unless he's an ATP or military. Then it's XC.

Even ATPs need to land at a different airport other than the original point
of departure for it to count as a XC. You're getting confused by the lack
of a distance requirement for the required aeronautical experience to
*obtain* the ATP certificate.

[SelwayKid]

Bob > wrote in message >...
> (SelwayKid) wrote:
>
> >What is the rating you are after?
>
> It will probably just confuse you, but if you really want to
> know, it's 1) insurance 2) commercial airplane 3) Sport CFI
*****
Bob
Check FAR 61.1 definitions.
>
> >The FAR's spell it out pretty
> >clearly. If you land at an airport or other place then where you take
> >off from, it is clearly a cross country flight.
>
> But I posted "50 nm" and "usable for a rating" several times
> to make it clear what type of XC time I wanted to log.
>
> >Yeah yeah I know.....
> >there are those who will argue the point but they can only see as far
> >as what is described in the FAR's and that only applies to those
> >flights needed to meet a particular requirement for a rating and that
> >is for Private or Commercial pilot, or the IFR XC. For the rest of it,
> >a 5 mile flight is XC. Outside of the specific regulation, its all
> >semantics.
>
> But I'm interested in the "specific regulation"

[Jose]

> Even ATPs need to land at a different airport
> You're getting confused by the lack
> of a distance requirement for the
> required aeronautical experience to
> *obtain* the ATP certificate.

Guilty.

Jose