All ATPS ATP rating?

[Peter MacPherson]

Has anyone used All ATPS for the ATP rating? Any locations
better than others? Since I'd have to travel anyway, I'd like
to go to one of the better locations.

TIA,
Pete

[Michelle P]

Pilot Puppy shop. One local examiner says they push them out as fast as
possible, quality be damned, just pass the test.
Michelle

Peter MacPherson wrote:

>Has anyone used All ATPS for the ATP rating? Any locations
>better than others? Since I'd have to travel anyway, I'd like
>to go to one of the better locations.
>
>TIA,
>Pete
>
>
>
>

--

Michelle P ATP-ASEL, CP-AMEL, and AMT-A&P

"Elisabeth" a Maule M-7-235B (no two are alike)

Volunteer Pilot, Angel Flight Mid-Atlantic

Volunteer Builder, Habitat for Humanity

[C Kingsbury]

"Michelle P" > wrote in message
k.net...
> Pilot Puppy shop. One local examiner says they push them out as fast as
> possible, quality be damned, just pass the test.
> Michelle
>
> Peter MacPherson wrote:
>
> >Has anyone used All ATPS for the ATP rating? Any locations
> >better than others? Since I'd have to travel anyway, I'd like
> >to go to one of the better locations.

Just because I love to play Devil's advocate...

My CFII never had a good thing to say about things like the PIC 10-day
Instrument Rating, and the place where I got my seaplane rating made no
bones about their distaste for certain well-known floatplane schools down in
Florida.

Both could make an argument as to why- my CFII felt that an instrument
student in the Northeast ought to be trained in all four seasons, and in
actual conditions as much as possible, and you just couldn't do that in ten
days. My seaplane school made a point of teaching more than the barebones
basics the PTS requires, as they felt that a pilot who knew only the PTS
could not in fact be a safe seaplane pilot.

Now, is anyone alleging that All ATPS has an "in" with an examiner who cuts
their students slack? Otherwise we have to concede that their students are
at least passing their checkrides honestly, and it's the same PTS everyone
else uses.

Local guys and smaller shops always grouse about bigger assembly-line
operations because they can't compete with their prices. Sometimes the local
guys do in fact provide better quality, too. I'm glad I went with my grumpy
old local CFII and spent 14 months getting my IR, now that I'm done with it.
But as I'm contemplating moving past that, I'm also starting to see the
advantages of the "puppy store" for some things. Heck, my grouchy CFII even
suggested that I "go to Florida to get your commercial done fast and
cheaper, them come back here to do your CFI with me."

I'd be interested of course to hear why the training approach taken by All
ATPs is worse than the way most ratings get done everywhere else anyway.
Let's not argue perfection- many of the "traditional" schools/instructors
out there stink just as bad as the big places and are more expensive while
they're at it.

Best,
-cwk.

[Michael]

"C Kingsbury" > wrote
> Both could make an argument as to why- my CFII felt that an instrument
> student in the Northeast ought to be trained in all four seasons, and in
> actual conditions as much as possible, and you just couldn't do that in ten
> days.

Training in actual is great when you can (I certainly do, every chance
I get) but there are places where you just CAN'T. In places like
Arizona, there is basically no IMC you can fly in a Skyhawk. Now
what? Training in all 4 seasons means you need to take a full year
for the instrument. Lots of people are on a tighter schedule.

Finally, there is this issue - an experienced VFR pilot already knows
a lot about the weather. He can probably do just fine without being
exposed to all 4 seasons. A low time inexperienced pilot is another
story - but I don't see why he needs an instrument rating anyway.

> My seaplane school made a point of teaching more than the barebones
> basics the PTS requires, as they felt that a pilot who knew only the PTS
> could not in fact be a safe seaplane pilot.

And they are DEMONSTRABLY right. If the training was adequate, you
could rent a seaplane solo. A flight school that will rent you a
sepalane solo is probably providing adequate seaplane training. One
that won't is not. It's really that simple. Will the seaplane school
you attended rent you the plane solo?

> Now, is anyone alleging that All ATPS has an "in" with an examiner who cuts
> their students slack?

I've certainly seen such allegations floated in the Houston area. The
examiner they used to use the most has in fact lost his designation.

> Otherwise we have to concede that their students are
> at least passing their checkrides honestly, and it's the same PTS everyone
> else uses.

Look, we all know there is lots of room for interpretation in the PTS.
And when an examiner KNOWS that he's doing a checkride with someone
who is not going to be able to exercise the privileges of the
certificate without a lot more training, there's certainly little
incentive to flunk the guy.

Most examiners I know really use the "smoking hole" standard - will
this guy be able to exercise the privileges he is seeking without
making a smoking hole? If so, why not give him the ticket?

In the case of an ATP rating in a small airplane, there are no
privileges. It's a vanity rating. Yeah, I'm a big man, I'm an ATP.
With that and five bucks, you can get a cup of coffee at Starbuck's.
Maybe it will help get a job, but you're still not getting into the
left seat without plenty of experience in the right and significant
formal training.

> Local guys and smaller shops always grouse about bigger assembly-line
> operations because they can't compete with their prices. Sometimes the local
> guys do in fact provide better quality, too. I'm glad I went with my grumpy
> old local CFII and spent 14 months getting my IR, now that I'm done with it.
> But as I'm contemplating moving past that, I'm also starting to see the
> advantages of the "puppy store" for some things. Heck, my grouchy CFII even
> suggested that I "go to Florida to get your commercial done fast and
> cheaper, them come back here to do your CFI with me."

You know, I did a "minimum effort" commercial multi. I did it with an
AllATP's grad. In one way, I really admire her ability. She knew
EXACTLY how much training we needed to do so that I would be able to
just squeak by on the ride with that examiner (the one who lost his
designation) on a bad day. I had a bad day and squeaked through. I
couldn't do that for a student. I just don't know how. We train till
you know it, and then the checkride is a non-event.

> I'd be interested of course to hear why the training approach taken by All
> ATPs is worse than the way most ratings get done everywhere else anyway.

Well, when I did my ATP, I actually took some lessons with a real,
live, practicing ATP - meaning someone who actually had a job that
requires an ATP - pilot in command of a large passenger-carrying
crewed aircraft operating under a certificate. I would not have
gotten that at AllATP's - and it made all the difference in the world
in understanding what being one was all about, what the checkride was
really traying to test, etc. I could have passed the checkride
without that - but I wouldn't have gotten much out of it. As it was,
I learned important things about MANAGING workload rather than just
HANDLING it. I learned about the difference between maneuvers
training and LOFT, and why (surprisingly) most errors are made at the
LOFT level. I learned things about utilizing a copilot - even one not
qualified in the aircraft - to enhance safety.

I know people who got the rating through AllATP's - and it's not part
of what they learn. They learn to pass the ATP checkride.

Michael

[C Kingsbury]

"Michael" > wrote in message
om...
> "C Kingsbury" > wrote

> > My seaplane school made a point of teaching more than the barebones
> > basics the PTS requires, as they felt that a pilot who knew only the PTS
> > could not in fact be a safe seaplane pilot.
>
> And they are DEMONSTRABLY right. If the training was adequate, you
> could rent a seaplane solo. A flight school that will rent you a
> sepalane solo is probably providing adequate seaplane training. One
> that won't is not. It's really that simple. Will the seaplane school
> you attended rent you the plane solo?

No, ask any insurance agent how many hours you'd need before they'll insure
you solo in a floatplane in Alaska. Actually, I think there are at best five
or six places left that will rent floatplanes solo, for precisely that
reason. I'll be heading up to one of them in Maine next Spring for the
required 10-hour checkout, I'll see how the quality of that training
compares to what I got up North.

> With that and five bucks, you can get a cup of coffee at Starbuck's.

Only if it's a small one...

> > I'd be interested of course to hear why the training approach taken by
All
> > ATPs is worse than the way most ratings get done everywhere else anyway.
>
> Well, when I did my ATP, I actually took some lessons with a real,
> live, practicing ATP

Well, this brings us right back to one of the central iornies of the
aviation world- that most of the training is done by the least-experienced
people.

[Captain Wubba]

I used them for my Multi/Commercial add-on. I was *very* disappointed.
Their planes were fantastic, their instructor abysmal. He was
(literally) the worst instructor I have ever flown with, by far. I
left halfway through their program when it became apparent he was an
incompetent instructor (although a fine pilot). Worse, AllATPS didn't
care. I talked with some of their management about it, expressing my
disappointment, and their attitude was basically "Well, we have your
money. We'll send you what remainder that you are due. We really don't
care that our instructor sucked, and that you didn't get what you paid
for. Kiss off".

Then it took them over a month to refund the (small) remainder of my
money. Overall, I would definitely not recommend them. I've worked
with 6 different flight schools in various capacities (both as a CFI
and as a student) and found AllATPS the least satisfactory. They are
the only one I would tell people to avoid.

My advice would be to not use them. I went to their Bowling Green, KY
location...so others may be better. But the attitude of management was
what convinced me that I would never recommend them. If their
management doesn't give a damn about student satisfaction, that
attitude will filter down to the instructors. As in my case, it
certainly did.

Cheers,

Cap


"Peter MacPherson" > wrote in message news:<sbTcd.414720$Fg5.353254@attbi_s53>...
> Has anyone used All ATPS for the ATP rating? Any locations
> better than others? Since I'd have to travel anyway, I'd like
> to go to one of the better locations.
>
> TIA,
> Pete

[Michael]

"C Kingsbury" > wrote
> No, ask any insurance agent how many hours you'd need before they'll insure
> you solo in a floatplane in Alaska. Actually, I think there are at best five
> or six places left that will rent floatplanes solo, for precisely that
> reason. I'll be heading up to one of them in Maine next Spring for the
> required 10-hour checkout, I'll see how the quality of that training
> compares to what I got up North.

Bet you the beverage of your choice, next time I'm up in your neck of
the woods, that you will learn things in that 10 hour checkout that
you have no idea about today.

> > Well, when I did my ATP, I actually took some lessons with a real,
> > live, practicing ATP
>
> Well, this brings us right back to one of the central iornies of the
> aviation world- that most of the training is done by the least-experienced
> people.

But you're missing something important. High quality training IS
available. What's more, it's not even particularly expensive. Better
instructors don't often charge more.

There is an FBO you can go to in the Houston area where you can get
tailwheel and aerobatic lessons from a rather unique individual. He
is a retired test pilot who has flown every piston fighter on the
inventory. Not only is he a hot stick, he's also a rocket scientist.
He was also an aerobatic competitor. In spite of his military (air
guard) background he is the nicest, quietest, calmest instructor you
will ever fly with. He NEVER raises his voice or belittles a student.
He has a knack for explaining things such that it's instantly and
immediately clear to you exactly what you should do. He can do this
with a wide variety of students. He has no fear - he will let you
screw up a tailwheel landing very badly - but as log as you keep it in
the middle half of the runway he will not touch the controls. If you
can't manage that, he will calmly take the controls and the airplane
will INSTANTLY be under control - and then he will explain to you
exactly what you did wrong, why you did it wrong, and how not to do it
again.

Flying with him costs exactly the same as flying with the
run-of-the-mill timebuilder at the flight school. But you need to
know who he is to ask for him - otherwise you will get the
timebuilder.

Over the course of my flying career, I've gotten a lot of instruction.
Whenever possible, I've made it a point to seek out the best
available. Every time I've done otherwise, I've been sorry.

Going to a place like AllATP's pretty much ensures you won't be
getting the best available instruction. Going to your local FBO and
taking the first instructor they offer you likely won't be any better.
But high quality instruction IS out there.

Michael

[Gig Giacona]

Not a float plane driver but wouldn't a much better guage of experience be
TO/Landings. I mean the guy that stays in the patten and does take offs and
landings for 10 hours is going to have a LOT more skill than the guy that
launches 2 or 3 times and flys max distance to another lake each time and
lands.

I kind of feel the same way about a lot of big iron pilots that have xx,000
hours but only one TO/L cycle every 8 or so hours. Let's face it who's the
more current pilot him or the commuter pilot with 4 or 5 TO/L cycles every
working day?

Gig


"Michael" > wrote in message
om...
> "C Kingsbury" > wrote
>> No, ask any insurance agent how many hours you'd need before they'll
>> insure
>> you solo in a floatplane in Alaska. Actually, I think there are at best
>> five
>> or six places left that will rent floatplanes solo, for precisely that
>> reason. I'll be heading up to one of them in Maine next Spring for the
>> required 10-hour checkout, I'll see how the quality of that training
>> compares to what I got up North.
>
> Bet you the beverage of your choice, next time I'm up in your neck of
> the woods, that you will learn things in that 10 hour checkout that
> you have no idea about today.

[Bob Moore]

"Gig Giacona" wrote

> I kind of feel the same way about a lot of big iron pilots that have
> xx,000 hours but only one TO/L cycle every 8 or so hours. Let's face
> it who's the more current pilot him or the commuter pilot with 4 or 5
> TO/L cycles every working day?

:-) :-) During my first month of flying the line as a B-707 PIC,
I logged 94 hours and 101 take-offs and landings.
At the end, flying the B-727 on the Northeast shuttle, I was flying
6 hours/day and logging 2-3 landings/day.

Bob Moore

[Gig Giacona]

"Bob Moore" > wrote in message
. 121...
> "Gig Giacona" wrote
>
>> I kind of feel the same way about a lot of big iron pilots that have
>> xx,000 hours but only one TO/L cycle every 8 or so hours. Let's face
>> it who's the more current pilot him or the commuter pilot with 4 or 5
>> TO/L cycles every working day?
>
> :-) :-) During my first month of flying the line as a B-707 PIC,
> I logged 94 hours and 101 take-offs and landings.
> At the end, flying the B-727 on the Northeast shuttle, I was flying
> 6 hours/day and logging 2-3 landings/day.
>
> Bob Moore
>

But what did you second month in the 707 look like?

[Ron Natalie]

Bob Moore wrote:

>
> :-) :-) During my first month of flying the line as a B-707 PIC,
> I logged 94 hours and 101 take-offs and landings.
> At the end, flying the B-727 on the Northeast shuttle, I was flying
> 6 hours/day and logging 2-3 landings/day.
>
Are we talking the "big yellow bird" Northeast? I remember them.
I used to fly them up to Boston. My father was doing legal work
for Northwest back in the days that a NE/NW merger was being talked
about.

[Bob Moore]

Ron Natalie > wrote

> Are we talking the "big yellow bird" Northeast?

Nope! Upon leaving the Naval Service in 1967, I joined PanAm
as a B-707 flight engineer until the "first" furlough in 1970.
I then flew as a copilot for the Dominican national airline for
a one year contract. Then I happened to be at the right place
at the right time to get a B-707 PIC position at a new airline
in Miami, Air Florida. We,(I...the only PIC) flew 6-8 short
legs per day just within the state of Florida. We were just an
"intrastate" carrier and as such, did not have to jump through
all of the CAB hoops. Still had to have the FAA certificate
though. I was also pressed into service as "the" check airman,
Chief Pilot, and Director of Operations, something for which 10
years of Naval Service had somewhat prepared me.

We flew "old" N705PA for about 10 months before it drank us out
of kerosene at which time we swapped it for 3 well used L-188
Electras. After operating the Electras for another 3-4 months,
I was recalled to my real job, PanAm.

There were several more furloughs, but I was with PanAm at the
end ocassionaly flying the PanAm Shuttle BOS-LGA-NAL.

Some of my furlough stories are very similiar to those recently
posted about John Lear. :-)

Bob

[C Kingsbury]

"Michael" > wrote in message
om...
> "C Kingsbury" > wrote
> > No, ask any insurance agent how many hours you'd need before they'll
insure
> > you solo in a floatplane in Alaska. Actually, I think there are at best
five
> > or six places left that will rent floatplanes solo, for precisely that
> > reason. I'll be heading up to one of them in Maine next Spring for the
> > required 10-hour checkout, I'll see how the quality of that training
> > compares to what I got up North.
>
> Bet you the beverage of your choice, next time I'm up in your neck of
> the woods, that you will learn things in that 10 hour checkout that
> you have no idea about today.

Bass Ale, and I'd be more than happy to buy you one should you find yourself
in my neck of the woods regardless.

I'm sure I'll learn a decent amount- I've got 8 hours on floats and little
backcountry experience so even a mediocre instructor ought to have a few new
things to impart. The question is, does the non-availability of solo rentals
necessarily imply a lower quality of training? If we're talking 172s at an
airport with a 3000' paved runway, absolutely yes. Super Cubs on floats on
the Kenai Peninsula? I don't think so. The place I went to has a dedicated
following with airline pilots and military guys including a few mission
commanders from the Space Shuttle. All of those guys know from good
training, so their opinion counts for a lot in my book.

Now, if you want to argue that the fact that no one will insure an 8-hour
pilot to fly floats in Alaska means that 8 hours of instruction isn't enough
to be safe, well, that's probably a fair argument, though in the end it
devolves into the question of just what constitutes "safe," given that all
flying in Alaska is significantly riskier than "outside."

> > > Well, when I did my ATP, I actually took some lessons with a real,
> > > live, practicing ATP
> >
> > Well, this brings us right back to one of the central iornies of the
> > aviation world- that most of the training is done by the
least-experienced
> > people.
>
> But you're missing something important. High quality training IS
> available. What's more, it's not even particularly expensive. Better
> instructors don't often charge more.

Another one of the ironies. I've been fortunate enough to be in a position
where it's been easy to have a wide range of choices in this regard.

-cwk.

[Michael]

"C Kingsbury" > wrote
> Now, if you want to argue that the fact that no one will insure an 8-hour
> pilot to fly floats in Alaska means that 8 hours of instruction isn't enough
> to be safe, well, that's probably a fair argument, though in the end it
> devolves into the question of just what constitutes "safe," given that all
> flying in Alaska is significantly riskier than "outside."

First off, nobody will insure someone who got his 8 hour float rating
in Florida to fly solo in Florida either. It's not a matter of
Alaska, it's a matter of floatplane operation being such that just
because you can pass the checkride doesn't mean that you can do it
with reasonable safety. That's also true of twins, BTW.

AllATP's has a 4 hour private multi rating. Now the reality is that
this CAN be enough. If someone is already a crackerjack all-weather
pilot in a fast complex single, I could transition him into a
reasonably docile twin and it would be OK. But if we're starting with
someone who at best has a few day-VFR hours in an Arrow with the rest
of his time in Cherokees and Skyhawks? No way. But it can be enough
to have him flying the plane local day-VFR. Does anyone fly a twin
exclusively on local day-VFR flights?

I suspect the same problem happens with floatplanes. The 8 hour
rating probably teaches you enough to land on a piece of water that is
known to be good. As long as you only go from one such piece of water
to another, you are probably OK. Does anyone use a floatplane that
way?

There's no such thing as safe. Every flight has associated risk.

However, when an operation is not insurable, that in itself tells you
something. What I think it tells you is that a reasonable person
would not do it. My experience in avaiation has been that whenever I
have seen that some aircraft or operation turned out to be uninsurable
at any price, there turned out to be a really good reason.

I've long been fascinated by seaplanes, and once I almost bought one.
It was a beauty - a Seahawker amphib with an O-320. Only 800 hours on
the engine, a minimum IFR panel, great condition - only $26K. It's
still for sale, AFAIK.

I called the insurance company to get a quote. I was told it was
uninsurable at any price. I asked if it was my inexperience, and was
told no, if you buy a Lake, or a Cub on floats, or for that matter a
Kitfox on floats, no problem they would insure me. Of course I would
need 10-20 hours dual depending on the airplane, but that made sense.
So why not the Seahawker? They wouldn't tell me, but I did some
research.

Of the 30 or so that were built, 6 lost portions of the wing in
flight.

These days, I pay attention to insurance. I may not always buy
insurance for everything, but I won't buy something nobody will
insure. Is it a perfect system? No, but it's way better than paying
attention to what people with no stake in the matter (like the FAA and
airport busybodies) tell you is safe or dangerous.

> > But you're missing something important. High quality training IS
> > available. What's more, it's not even particularly expensive. Better
> > instructors don't often charge more.
>
> Another one of the ironies. I've been fortunate enough to be in a position
> where it's been easy to have a wide range of choices in this regard.

I don't believe it's a matter of fortune. Once you understand what
you're looking for and how to find it, you discover that there is a
lot of high quality instruction around.

Michael

[Doug]

I have an Amphibian and have always wondered how to log my flights
where I don't land on the water. I don't think the FAA cares much. I
do know that a pilot can be current in the land ops of the amphibian
and be legal to carry passengers, even though he hasn't landed on
water in the last 90 days. I've been logging all my amphibian time as
seaplane time. My insurance company wants "amphibian" time, they don't
care if its water or land, just so I am manipulating the gear, which
is not trivial. I think you can get a BFR for land in an amphibian.
Also a non-seaplane rated pilot can fly my airplane and be FAA legal.
There are lots of non-addressed issues with seaplanes.

Bob Moore > wrote in message >...
> Ron Natalie > wrote
>
> > Are we talking the "big yellow bird" Northeast?
>
> Nope! Upon leaving the Naval Service in 1967, I joined PanAm
> as a B-707 flight engineer until the "first" furlough in 1970.
> I then flew as a copilot for the Dominican national airline for
> a one year contract. Then I happened to be at the right place
> at the right time to get a B-707 PIC position at a new airline
> in Miami, Air Florida. We,(I...the only PIC) flew 6-8 short
> legs per day just within the state of Florida. We were just an
> "intrastate" carrier and as such, did not have to jump through
> all of the CAB hoops. Still had to have the FAA certificate
> though. I was also pressed into service as "the" check airman,
> Chief Pilot, and Director of Operations, something for which 10
> years of Naval Service had somewhat prepared me.
>
> We flew "old" N705PA for about 10 months before it drank us out
> of kerosene at which time we swapped it for 3 well used L-188
> Electras. After operating the Electras for another 3-4 months,
> I was recalled to my real job, PanAm.
>
> There were several more furloughs, but I was with PanAm at the
> end ocassionaly flying the PanAm Shuttle BOS-LGA-NAL.
>
> Some of my furlough stories are very similiar to those recently
> posted about John Lear. :-)
>
> Bob

[Peter Duniho]

"Doug" > wrote in message
om...
>I have an Amphibian and have always wondered how to log my flights
> where I don't land on the water. I don't think the FAA cares much. I
> do know that a pilot can be current in the land ops of the amphibian
> and be legal to carry passengers, even though he hasn't landed on
> water in the last 90 days.

I've never actually seen that opinion documented, but it's how I apply the
rules for my own amphibian flying. I count passenger currency separately
for land and water operations. I don't think I've ever been water current
and not land current (nature of the beast :) ), but I do every now and then
find myself not water current, but still taking passengers while limiting
myself to land operations.

> I've been logging all my amphibian time as
> seaplane time. My insurance company wants "amphibian" time, they don't
> care if its water or land, just so I am manipulating the gear, which
> is not trivial.

My insurance company doesn't ask about gear operation. I could
theoretically fly only on land, never raising the gear, and the hours would
still apply just as equally as if I had mixed land and water, or even
primarily water operations.

Of course, they do also ask how many water landings I've had, but I have no
idea what they do with that number. When I've asked about how they decide
what risk group I'm in, they've never mentioned the water landings number.

> I think you can get a BFR for land in an amphibian.

And you can get a BFR for water in a landplane. The rules do not require a
BFR for each category and class of aircraft you're flying. You simply need
to get a review in *a* type of aircraft for which you're rated. BFR is a
red herring as far as amphib versus seaplane versus landplane is concerned.

> Also a non-seaplane rated pilot can fly my airplane and be FAA legal.

Again, I've never seen that issue documented. I believe it to be true, and
have been told by non-authoritative sources that it's true, but I've never
bothered to check.

What any of this has to do with Bob's airline career, I have no idea.

Pete