TSA rule 49 CFR Part 1552 (or its misinterpretation) is already preventing people from flying (even renters) (long)

[Bay Aviator]

This (10-19) afternoon, my flying club (Squadron 2 in San Jose)
emailed the following notice to all club members (long):

-----------------------------QUOTE----------------------------------
The following message is divided into two parts;
· To All Members
· To CFI Members.

In Summary as of 10/20/04:

· ALL members that are US Citizens, must have additional documents
scanned before their next flight.

· ALL CFI's must be registered with the TSA as providers and be FAA
enabled in order to teach at Squadron 2 Flying Club after 10/19/04

· ALL members that are not US Citizens must consult Club office
Personnel


====================================
Effective 10/20/04
====================================
To All:
Per the recent FAA/TSA requirements, Squadron 2 Flying Club has
expanded our documents database to include those items required by the
FAA/TSA. All members are required to scan their documents PRIOR to
their next flight (training or otherwise). The documents to be
scanned are one of the following:

For US Citizens:
· Original or government-issued certificated birth certificate (US)
for the US, for American Samoa, or Swains Island, plus a photo ID; or
· Current, valid (not expired) US Passport (contains photo); or
· Original US Nationalization Certificate w/ raised seal, plus a photo
ID; or
· Original US Citizenship & Immigration Services (USCIS) or
Immigration & Naturalization Service (INS) form N-550 (or N-570,
Certificate of Naturalization), plus a photo ID; or
· Original certification of birth abroad w/raised seal or US
Department of State Form FS-545 (or Form DS-1350), plus a photo ID; or
· Original certificate of US citizenship w/raised seal, USCIS or INS
Form N-560 (or Form N-561 or Form N-581, with photo ID; or
· DOD or Federal Agency written certification attesting to the Federal
employee's US citizenship or nationality, plus their government-issued
photo ID.

Club Office personnel must authorize and record the documents to be
used to satisfy the above requirement.

For non-US citizens:
Please see Club office personnel for TSA clearing procedure. Due to
each person's own unique situation, every non-US citizen Club Member
will be handled on an individual basis in order to minimize
inconvenience to those that may be temporarily deferred due to non
training activities.

To All CFIs:
· When Signing up new members, you MUST verify they are US citizens
and their documents must be approved by Club office personnel.
· If the new sign up is NOT a US Citizen, their sign up must be
handled by the Club office personnel.

All CFIs teaching at Squadron 2 Flying Club are:

· required to be signed up within the TSA system
· be authorized by the FAA within the TSA system.

CFIs must prove compliance to Club office personnel before any further
instruction by demonstrating they are authorized as "Providers" on the
TSA website before teaching at Squadron 2 Flying Club after 10/19/04.

You must be registered at
https://www.flightschoolcandidates.gov/fsindex.html

==============================
Note to All:

Until further office personnel training takes place, the definition of
"Club office personnel" is:

· (club president's name deleted).

This list will be will expanded next week.

==============================
AGAIN in Summary as of 10/20/04:

· ALL members that are US Citizens, must have additional documents
scanned before their next flight.

· ALL CFI's must be registered with the TSA as providers and be FAA
enabled in order to teach at Squadron 2 Flying Club after 10/19/04

· ALL members that are not US Citizens must consult Club office
Personnel
---------------------------UNQUOTE---------------------------

Upon reading this at work, I called a friend who also flies at
Squadron 2.
He drove to Squadron 2 and met a CFI there, who told him he is also
grounded.
In fact, everybody is grounded, even renters. Why? See above.

The problem is, Squadron 2 is mis-applying 49 CFR Part 1552 (which
only pertains to FLIGHT TRAINING OPERATIONS) to RENTAL operations.

My friend, who is not a citizen but was born in Europe and has a
"Green Card", has no intention at all to seek any more flight training
(he just wants to continue to rent) and he is more than non-plussed by
this sweeping and arbitrary interpretation of 49 CFR Part 1552.

This mis-interpretation of a government rule which only pertains to
FLIGHT TRAINING causes him monetary damage (the yearly club membership
fee is some $350 and they don't allow him to fly now) and he is
considering filing a lawsuit against Squadron 2.

[BTIZ]

I'll agree... your flying club has gone over the top in the interpretation
of 49CFR1552

All CFIs should not be grounded.. and any rated pilot with an FAA
certificate should still be able to rent and fly... how ever.. there is a
question on "training",

All CFIs do need to register with TSA as "providers of instruction", but
only if they are providing instruction to the guy with the green card.

All CFIs, and it appears the club president is taking the responsibility..
have to determine by the criteria listed if a STUDENT is a US Citizen or
not.

BT

"Bay Aviator" > wrote in message
om...
> This (10-19) afternoon, my flying club (Squadron 2 in San Jose)
> emailed the following notice to all club members (long):
>
> -----------------------------QUOTE----------------------------------
> The following message is divided into two parts;
> · To All Members
> · To CFI Members.
>
> In Summary as of 10/20/04:
>
> · ALL members that are US Citizens, must have additional documents
> scanned before their next flight.
>
> · ALL CFI's must be registered with the TSA as providers and be FAA
> enabled in order to teach at Squadron 2 Flying Club after 10/19/04
>
> · ALL members that are not US Citizens must consult Club office
> Personnel
>
>
> ====================================
> Effective 10/20/04
> ====================================
> To All:
> Per the recent FAA/TSA requirements, Squadron 2 Flying Club has
> expanded our documents database to include those items required by the
> FAA/TSA. All members are required to scan their documents PRIOR to
> their next flight (training or otherwise). The documents to be
> scanned are one of the following:
>
> For US Citizens:
> · Original or government-issued certificated birth certificate (US)
> for the US, for American Samoa, or Swains Island, plus a photo ID; or
> · Current, valid (not expired) US Passport (contains photo); or
> · Original US Nationalization Certificate w/ raised seal, plus a photo
> ID; or
> · Original US Citizenship & Immigration Services (USCIS) or
> Immigration & Naturalization Service (INS) form N-550 (or N-570,
> Certificate of Naturalization), plus a photo ID; or
> · Original certification of birth abroad w/raised seal or US
> Department of State Form FS-545 (or Form DS-1350), plus a photo ID; or
> · Original certificate of US citizenship w/raised seal, USCIS or INS
> Form N-560 (or Form N-561 or Form N-581, with photo ID; or
> · DOD or Federal Agency written certification attesting to the Federal
> employee's US citizenship or nationality, plus their government-issued
> photo ID.
>
> Club Office personnel must authorize and record the documents to be
> used to satisfy the above requirement.
>
> For non-US citizens:
> Please see Club office personnel for TSA clearing procedure. Due to
> each person's own unique situation, every non-US citizen Club Member
> will be handled on an individual basis in order to minimize
> inconvenience to those that may be temporarily deferred due to non
> training activities.
>
> To All CFIs:
> · When Signing up new members, you MUST verify they are US citizens
> and their documents must be approved by Club office personnel.
> · If the new sign up is NOT a US Citizen, their sign up must be
> handled by the Club office personnel.
>
> All CFIs teaching at Squadron 2 Flying Club are:
>
> · required to be signed up within the TSA system
> · be authorized by the FAA within the TSA system.
>
> CFIs must prove compliance to Club office personnel before any further
> instruction by demonstrating they are authorized as "Providers" on the
> TSA website before teaching at Squadron 2 Flying Club after 10/19/04.
>
> You must be registered at
> https://www.flightschoolcandidates.gov/fsindex.html
>
> ==============================
> Note to All:
>
> Until further office personnel training takes place, the definition of
> "Club office personnel" is:
>
> · (club president's name deleted).
>
> This list will be will expanded next week.
>
> ==============================
> AGAIN in Summary as of 10/20/04:
>
> · ALL members that are US Citizens, must have additional documents
> scanned before their next flight.
>
> · ALL CFI's must be registered with the TSA as providers and be FAA
> enabled in order to teach at Squadron 2 Flying Club after 10/19/04
>
> · ALL members that are not US Citizens must consult Club office
> Personnel
> ---------------------------UNQUOTE---------------------------
>
> Upon reading this at work, I called a friend who also flies at
> Squadron 2.
> He drove to Squadron 2 and met a CFI there, who told him he is also
> grounded.
> In fact, everybody is grounded, even renters. Why? See above.
>
> The problem is, Squadron 2 is mis-applying 49 CFR Part 1552 (which
> only pertains to FLIGHT TRAINING OPERATIONS) to RENTAL operations.
>
> My friend, who is not a citizen but was born in Europe and has a
> "Green Card", has no intention at all to seek any more flight training
> (he just wants to continue to rent) and he is more than non-plussed by
> this sweeping and arbitrary interpretation of 49 CFR Part 1552.
>
> This mis-interpretation of a government rule which only pertains to
> FLIGHT TRAINING causes him monetary damage (the yearly club membership
> fee is some $350 and they don't allow him to fly now) and he is
> considering filing a lawsuit against Squadron 2.

[Bob Chilcoat]

Our 4-owner partnership is incorporated as "Archer Aero Club". Anyone have
a clue as to whether or not we need to jump through the same hoops as a real
flying club as far as proof of citizenship, etc. is concerned? Do we need
recurrent security awareness training?

--
Bob (Chief Pilot, White Knuckle Airways)

I don't have to like Bush and Cheney (Or Kerry, for that matter) to love
America

"Bay Aviator" > wrote in message
om...
> This (10-19) afternoon, my flying club (Squadron 2 in San Jose)
> emailed the following notice to all club members (long):
>
> -----------------------------QUOTE----------------------------------
> The following message is divided into two parts;
> · To All Members
> · To CFI Members.
>
> In Summary as of 10/20/04:
>
> · ALL members that are US Citizens, must have additional documents
> scanned before their next flight.
>
> · ALL CFI's must be registered with the TSA as providers and be FAA
> enabled in order to teach at Squadron 2 Flying Club after 10/19/04
>
> · ALL members that are not US Citizens must consult Club office
> Personnel
>
>
> ====================================
> Effective 10/20/04
> ====================================
> To All:
> Per the recent FAA/TSA requirements, Squadron 2 Flying Club has
> expanded our documents database to include those items required by the
> FAA/TSA. All members are required to scan their documents PRIOR to
> their next flight (training or otherwise). The documents to be
> scanned are one of the following:
>
> For US Citizens:
> · Original or government-issued certificated birth certificate (US)
> for the US, for American Samoa, or Swains Island, plus a photo ID; or
> · Current, valid (not expired) US Passport (contains photo); or
> · Original US Nationalization Certificate w/ raised seal, plus a photo
> ID; or
> · Original US Citizenship & Immigration Services (USCIS) or
> Immigration & Naturalization Service (INS) form N-550 (or N-570,
> Certificate of Naturalization), plus a photo ID; or
> · Original certification of birth abroad w/raised seal or US
> Department of State Form FS-545 (or Form DS-1350), plus a photo ID; or
> · Original certificate of US citizenship w/raised seal, USCIS or INS
> Form N-560 (or Form N-561 or Form N-581, with photo ID; or
> · DOD or Federal Agency written certification attesting to the Federal
> employee's US citizenship or nationality, plus their government-issued
> photo ID.
>
> Club Office personnel must authorize and record the documents to be
> used to satisfy the above requirement.
>
> For non-US citizens:
> Please see Club office personnel for TSA clearing procedure. Due to
> each person's own unique situation, every non-US citizen Club Member
> will be handled on an individual basis in order to minimize
> inconvenience to those that may be temporarily deferred due to non
> training activities.
>
> To All CFIs:
> · When Signing up new members, you MUST verify they are US citizens
> and their documents must be approved by Club office personnel.
> · If the new sign up is NOT a US Citizen, their sign up must be
> handled by the Club office personnel.
>
> All CFIs teaching at Squadron 2 Flying Club are:
>
> · required to be signed up within the TSA system
> · be authorized by the FAA within the TSA system.
>
> CFIs must prove compliance to Club office personnel before any further
> instruction by demonstrating they are authorized as "Providers" on the
> TSA website before teaching at Squadron 2 Flying Club after 10/19/04.
>
> You must be registered at
> https://www.flightschoolcandidates.gov/fsindex.html
>
> ==============================
> Note to All:
>
> Until further office personnel training takes place, the definition of
> "Club office personnel" is:
>
> · (club president's name deleted).
>
> This list will be will expanded next week.
>
> ==============================
> AGAIN in Summary as of 10/20/04:
>
> · ALL members that are US Citizens, must have additional documents
> scanned before their next flight.
>
> · ALL CFI's must be registered with the TSA as providers and be FAA
> enabled in order to teach at Squadron 2 Flying Club after 10/19/04
>
> · ALL members that are not US Citizens must consult Club office
> Personnel
> ---------------------------UNQUOTE---------------------------
>
> Upon reading this at work, I called a friend who also flies at
> Squadron 2.
> He drove to Squadron 2 and met a CFI there, who told him he is also
> grounded.
> In fact, everybody is grounded, even renters. Why? See above.
>
> The problem is, Squadron 2 is mis-applying 49 CFR Part 1552 (which
> only pertains to FLIGHT TRAINING OPERATIONS) to RENTAL operations.
>
> My friend, who is not a citizen but was born in Europe and has a
> "Green Card", has no intention at all to seek any more flight training
> (he just wants to continue to rent) and he is more than non-plussed by
> this sweeping and arbitrary interpretation of 49 CFR Part 1552.
>
> This mis-interpretation of a government rule which only pertains to
> FLIGHT TRAINING causes him monetary damage (the yearly club membership
> fee is some $350 and they don't allow him to fly now) and he is
> considering filing a lawsuit against Squadron 2.

[Bob Chilcoat]

I guess not, now that I've read the full text of Bay Aviator's post. Looks
like this SHOULD only affect flight training, and non of us is a CFI.

--
Bob (Chief Pilot, White Knuckle Airways)

I don't have to like Bush and Cheney (Or Kerry, for that matter) to love
America

"Bob Chilcoat" > wrote in message
...
> Our 4-owner partnership is incorporated as "Archer Aero Club". Anyone
have
> a clue as to whether or not we need to jump through the same hoops as a
real
> flying club as far as proof of citizenship, etc. is concerned? Do we need
> recurrent security awareness training?
>
> --
> Bob (Chief Pilot, White Knuckle Airways)
>
> I don't have to like Bush and Cheney (Or Kerry, for that matter) to love
> America
>
> "Bay Aviator" > wrote in message
> om...
> > This (10-19) afternoon, my flying club (Squadron 2 in San Jose)
> > emailed the following notice to all club members (long):
> >
> > -----------------------------QUOTE----------------------------------
> > The following message is divided into two parts;
> > · To All Members
> > · To CFI Members.
> >
> > In Summary as of 10/20/04:
> >
> > · ALL members that are US Citizens, must have additional documents
> > scanned before their next flight.
> >
> > · ALL CFI's must be registered with the TSA as providers and be FAA
> > enabled in order to teach at Squadron 2 Flying Club after 10/19/04
> >
> > · ALL members that are not US Citizens must consult Club office
> > Personnel
> >
> >
> > ====================================
> > Effective 10/20/04
> > ====================================
> > To All:
> > Per the recent FAA/TSA requirements, Squadron 2 Flying Club has
> > expanded our documents database to include those items required by the
> > FAA/TSA. All members are required to scan their documents PRIOR to
> > their next flight (training or otherwise). The documents to be
> > scanned are one of the following:
> >
> > For US Citizens:
> > · Original or government-issued certificated birth certificate (US)
> > for the US, for American Samoa, or Swains Island, plus a photo ID; or
> > · Current, valid (not expired) US Passport (contains photo); or
> > · Original US Nationalization Certificate w/ raised seal, plus a photo
> > ID; or
> > · Original US Citizenship & Immigration Services (USCIS) or
> > Immigration & Naturalization Service (INS) form N-550 (or N-570,
> > Certificate of Naturalization), plus a photo ID; or
> > · Original certification of birth abroad w/raised seal or US
> > Department of State Form FS-545 (or Form DS-1350), plus a photo ID; or
> > · Original certificate of US citizenship w/raised seal, USCIS or INS
> > Form N-560 (or Form N-561 or Form N-581, with photo ID; or
> > · DOD or Federal Agency written certification attesting to the Federal
> > employee's US citizenship or nationality, plus their government-issued
> > photo ID.
> >
> > Club Office personnel must authorize and record the documents to be
> > used to satisfy the above requirement.
> >
> > For non-US citizens:
> > Please see Club office personnel for TSA clearing procedure. Due to
> > each person's own unique situation, every non-US citizen Club Member
> > will be handled on an individual basis in order to minimize
> > inconvenience to those that may be temporarily deferred due to non
> > training activities.
> >
> > To All CFIs:
> > · When Signing up new members, you MUST verify they are US citizens
> > and their documents must be approved by Club office personnel.
> > · If the new sign up is NOT a US Citizen, their sign up must be
> > handled by the Club office personnel.
> >
> > All CFIs teaching at Squadron 2 Flying Club are:
> >
> > · required to be signed up within the TSA system
> > · be authorized by the FAA within the TSA system.
> >
> > CFIs must prove compliance to Club office personnel before any further
> > instruction by demonstrating they are authorized as "Providers" on the
> > TSA website before teaching at Squadron 2 Flying Club after 10/19/04.
> >
> > You must be registered at
> > https://www.flightschoolcandidates.gov/fsindex.html
> >
> > ==============================
> > Note to All:
> >
> > Until further office personnel training takes place, the definition of
> > "Club office personnel" is:
> >
> > · (club president's name deleted).
> >
> > This list will be will expanded next week.
> >
> > ==============================
> > AGAIN in Summary as of 10/20/04:
> >
> > · ALL members that are US Citizens, must have additional documents
> > scanned before their next flight.
> >
> > · ALL CFI's must be registered with the TSA as providers and be FAA
> > enabled in order to teach at Squadron 2 Flying Club after 10/19/04
> >
> > · ALL members that are not US Citizens must consult Club office
> > Personnel
> > ---------------------------UNQUOTE---------------------------
> >
> > Upon reading this at work, I called a friend who also flies at
> > Squadron 2.
> > He drove to Squadron 2 and met a CFI there, who told him he is also
> > grounded.
> > In fact, everybody is grounded, even renters. Why? See above.
> >
> > The problem is, Squadron 2 is mis-applying 49 CFR Part 1552 (which
> > only pertains to FLIGHT TRAINING OPERATIONS) to RENTAL operations.
> >
> > My friend, who is not a citizen but was born in Europe and has a
> > "Green Card", has no intention at all to seek any more flight training
> > (he just wants to continue to rent) and he is more than non-plussed by
> > this sweeping and arbitrary interpretation of 49 CFR Part 1552.
> >
> > This mis-interpretation of a government rule which only pertains to
> > FLIGHT TRAINING causes him monetary damage (the yearly club membership
> > fee is some $350 and they don't allow him to fly now) and he is
> > considering filing a lawsuit against Squadron 2.
>
>

[Andrew Sarangan]

You club has gone way overboard on this one. The rules only apply for
training, not to all owners and renters. As a club member, you are a
part-owner of the aircraft, so clearly this does not apply to you. It
sounds like your club personnel don't have a clue about this one. They
should consider applying for a job at TSA :-)





(Bay Aviator) wrote in
om:

> This (10-19) afternoon, my flying club (Squadron 2 in San Jose)
> emailed the following notice to all club members (long):
>
> -----------------------------QUOTE----------------------------------
> The following message is divided into two parts;
> · To All Members
> · To CFI Members.
>
> In Summary as of 10/20/04:
>
> · ALL members that are US Citizens, must have additional documents
> scanned before their next flight.
>
> · ALL CFI's must be registered with the TSA as providers and be
> FAA enabled in order to teach at Squadron 2 Flying Club after 10/19/04
>
> · ALL members that are not US Citizens must consult Club office
> Personnel
>
>
> ====================================
> Effective 10/20/04
> ====================================
> To All:
> Per the recent FAA/TSA requirements, Squadron 2 Flying Club has
> expanded our documents database to include those items required by the
> FAA/TSA. All members are required to scan their documents PRIOR to
> their next flight (training or otherwise). The documents to be
> scanned are one of the following:
>
> For US Citizens:
> · Original or government-issued certificated birth certificate
> (US) for the US, for American Samoa, or Swains Island, plus a photo
> ID; or · Current, valid (not expired) US Passport (contains
> photo); or · Original US Nationalization Certificate w/ raised
> seal, plus a photo ID; or
> · Original US Citizenship & Immigration Services (USCIS) or
> Immigration & Naturalization Service (INS) form N-550 (or N-570,
> Certificate of Naturalization), plus a photo ID; or
> · Original certification of birth abroad w/raised seal or US
> Department of State Form FS-545 (or Form DS-1350), plus a photo ID; or
> · Original certificate of US citizenship w/raised seal, USCIS or
> INS Form N-560 (or Form N-561 or Form N-581, with photo ID; or
> · DOD or Federal Agency written certification attesting to the
> Federal employee's US citizenship or nationality, plus their
> government-issued photo ID.
>
> Club Office personnel must authorize and record the documents to be
> used to satisfy the above requirement.
>
> For non-US citizens:
> Please see Club office personnel for TSA clearing procedure. Due to
> each person's own unique situation, every non-US citizen Club Member
> will be handled on an individual basis in order to minimize
> inconvenience to those that may be temporarily deferred due to non
> training activities.
>
> To All CFIs:
> · When Signing up new members, you MUST verify they are US
> citizens and their documents must be approved by Club office
> personnel. · If the new sign up is NOT a US Citizen, their sign up
> must be handled by the Club office personnel.
>
> All CFIs teaching at Squadron 2 Flying Club are:
>
> · required to be signed up within the TSA system
> · be authorized by the FAA within the TSA system.
>
> CFIs must prove compliance to Club office personnel before any further
> instruction by demonstrating they are authorized as "Providers" on the
> TSA website before teaching at Squadron 2 Flying Club after 10/19/04.
>
> You must be registered at
> https://www.flightschoolcandidates.gov/fsindex.html
>
> ==============================
> Note to All:
>
> Until further office personnel training takes place, the definition of
> "Club office personnel" is:
>
> · (club president's name deleted).
>
> This list will be will expanded next week.
>
> ==============================
> AGAIN in Summary as of 10/20/04:
>
> · ALL members that are US Citizens, must have additional documents
> scanned before their next flight.
>
> · ALL CFI's must be registered with the TSA as providers and be
> FAA enabled in order to teach at Squadron 2 Flying Club after 10/19/04
>
> · ALL members that are not US Citizens must consult Club office
> Personnel
> ---------------------------UNQUOTE---------------------------
>
> Upon reading this at work, I called a friend who also flies at
> Squadron 2.
> He drove to Squadron 2 and met a CFI there, who told him he is also
> grounded.
> In fact, everybody is grounded, even renters. Why? See above.
>
> The problem is, Squadron 2 is mis-applying 49 CFR Part 1552 (which
> only pertains to FLIGHT TRAINING OPERATIONS) to RENTAL operations.
>
> My friend, who is not a citizen but was born in Europe and has a
> "Green Card", has no intention at all to seek any more flight training
> (he just wants to continue to rent) and he is more than non-plussed by
> this sweeping and arbitrary interpretation of 49 CFR Part 1552.
>
> This mis-interpretation of a government rule which only pertains to
> FLIGHT TRAINING causes him monetary damage (the yearly club membership
> fee is some $350 and they don't allow him to fly now) and he is
> considering filing a lawsuit against Squadron 2.


Posted Via Usenet.com Premium Usenet Newsgroup Services
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[Geoffrey Barnes]

And I thought *I* was a power-hungry glory hound as the V.P. of my club.
But your president really sounds like he is trying to throw his weight
around on this one. He's really got me beat!


---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.778 / Virus Database: 525 - Release Date: 10/15/2004

[Daniel L. Lieberman]

Geoffrey,

On the assumption that your use of the words "your president" imply that you
are not a citizen of the USA which possibility is perhaps supported by the
spelling of your name, I would explain that the TSA is an agency of the
executive branch of the US government. While the president is the head of
that branch he does not personally make 99.9 +% of the decisions personally.
Thus the "power-hungry" epithet may apply to you as regards your personal
actions in your club but would not be supported by this agency action. Your
ignorance, if it exists, is clearly justifiable since many of the American
hoi polloi believe that the president can institute a draft - an action
which can only be done by the legislative branch of the US Government. This
is, of course, different from the British model in which the PM heads both
the legislative and executive elements of the government.

Daniel

P.S. I personally don't agree with this action by the TSA.


"Geoffrey Barnes" > wrote in message
nk.net...
> And I thought *I* was a power-hungry glory hound as the V.P. of my club.
> But your president really sounds like he is trying to throw his weight
> around on this one. He's really got me beat!
>
>
> ---
> Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
> Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
> Version: 6.0.778 / Virus Database: 525 - Release Date: 10/15/2004
>
>

[Gig Giacona]

Christ Daniel, he was talking about the president of his damn flying club.

Get a grip.


"Daniel L. Lieberman" > wrote in message
...
> Geoffrey,
>
> On the assumption that your use of the words "your president" imply that
> you are not a citizen of the USA which possibility is perhaps supported by
> the spelling of your name, I would explain that the TSA is an agency of
> the executive branch of the US government. While the president is the head
> of that branch he does not personally make 99.9 +% of the decisions
> personally. Thus the "power-hungry" epithet may apply to you as regards
> your personal actions in your club but would not be supported by this
> agency action. Your ignorance, if it exists, is clearly justifiable since
> many of the American hoi polloi believe that the president can institute
> a draft - an action which can only be done by the legislative branch of
> the US Government. This is, of course, different from the British model in
> which the PM heads both the legislative and executive elements of the
> government.
>
> Daniel
>
> P.S. I personally don't agree with this action by the TSA.
>
>
> "Geoffrey Barnes" > wrote in message
> nk.net...
>> And I thought *I* was a power-hungry glory hound as the V.P. of my club.
>> But your president really sounds like he is trying to throw his weight
>> around on this one. He's really got me beat!
>>
>>
>> ---
>> Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
>> Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
>> Version: 6.0.778 / Virus Database: 525 - Release Date: 10/15/2004
>>
>>
>
>

[Daniel L. Lieberman]

Gig,

Read again carefully. First) he says "your president" if it was the
president of HIS flying club he should or would have said MY president.
Further he indicates that HE is a "power hungry..." that would not seem
likely if the president of his flying club was of a similar ilk. Second)
this thread is about the TSA.

In any event I have accomplished my goal of explaining to a probably UK or
ANZUS citizen the nature of the US government and see nothing to be gained
by further continuing this thread.

Daniel

"Gig Giacona" > wrote in message
...
> Christ Daniel, he was talking about the president of his damn flying club.
>
> Get a grip.
>
>
> "Daniel L. Lieberman" > wrote in message
> ...
>> Geoffrey,
>>
>> On the assumption that your use of the words "your president" imply that
>> you are not a citizen of the USA which possibility is perhaps supported
>> by the spelling of your name, I would explain that the TSA is an agency
>> of the executive branch of the US government. While the president is the
>> head of that branch he does not personally make 99.9 +% of the decisions
>> personally. Thus the "power-hungry" epithet may apply to you as regards
>> your personal actions in your club but would not be supported by this
>> agency action. Your ignorance, if it exists, is clearly justifiable
>> since many of the American hoi polloi believe that the president can
>> institute a draft - an action which can only be done by the legislative
>> branch of the US Government. This is, of course, different from the
>> British model in which the PM heads both the legislative and executive
>> elements of the government.
>>
>> Daniel
>>
>> P.S. I personally don't agree with this action by the TSA.
>>
>>
>> "Geoffrey Barnes" > wrote in message
>> nk.net...
>>> And I thought *I* was a power-hungry glory hound as the V.P. of my club.
>>> But your president really sounds like he is trying to throw his weight
>>> around on this one. He's really got me beat!
>>>
>>>
>>> ---
>>> Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
>>> Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
>>> Version: 6.0.778 / Virus Database: 525 - Release Date: 10/15/2004
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>
>

[Gig Giacona]

No, Daniel... He was responding to "Bay Aviators" post about Squadron 2's
over the top response to the rule.

Here's the Google of the thread.
http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&threadm=Xns958867C1DC47Casaranganyahoocom%4038.119 .106.5&rnum=1&prev=/groups%3Fq%3DRe%253A%2BTSA%2Brule%2B49%2BCFR%2BPar t%2B1552%2B(or%2Bits%2Bmisinterpretation)%2Bis%2Ba lready%2Bpreventing%2Bpeople%2Bfrom%2Bflying%2B(ev en%2Brenters)%2B%2B%2B(long)%26hl%3Den%26btnG%3DGo ogle%2BSearch

or the tinyURL version

http://tinyurl.com/67rcu



"Daniel L. Lieberman" > wrote in message
...
> Gig,
>
> Read again carefully. First) he says "your president" if it was the
> president of HIS flying club he should or would have said MY president.
> Further he indicates that HE is a "power hungry..." that would not seem
> likely if the president of his flying club was of a similar ilk. Second)
> this thread is about the TSA.
>
> In any event I have accomplished my goal of explaining to a probably UK or
> ANZUS citizen the nature of the US government and see nothing to be gained
> by further continuing this thread.
>
> Daniel
>
> "Gig Giacona" > wrote in message
> ...
>> Christ Daniel, he was talking about the president of his damn flying
>> club.
>>
>> Get a grip.
>>
>>
>> "Daniel L. Lieberman" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>> Geoffrey,
>>>
>>> On the assumption that your use of the words "your president" imply that
>>> you are not a citizen of the USA which possibility is perhaps supported
>>> by the spelling of your name, I would explain that the TSA is an agency
>>> of the executive branch of the US government. While the president is the
>>> head of that branch he does not personally make 99.9 +% of the decisions
>>> personally. Thus the "power-hungry" epithet may apply to you as regards
>>> your personal actions in your club but would not be supported by this
>>> agency action. Your ignorance, if it exists, is clearly justifiable
>>> since many of the American hoi polloi believe that the president can
>>> institute a draft - an action which can only be done by the legislative
>>> branch of the US Government. This is, of course, different from the
>>> British model in which the PM heads both the legislative and executive
>>> elements of the government.
>>>
>>> Daniel
>>>
>>> P.S. I personally don't agree with this action by the TSA.
>>>
>>>
>>> "Geoffrey Barnes" > wrote in message
>>> nk.net...
>>>> And I thought *I* was a power-hungry glory hound as the V.P. of my
>>>> club.
>>>> But your president really sounds like he is trying to throw his weight
>>>> around on this one. He's really got me beat!
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ---
>>>> Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
>>>> Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
>>>> Version: 6.0.778 / Virus Database: 525 - Release Date: 10/15/2004
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>
>

[Geoffrey Barnes]

Daniel,

First, I really am a U.S. citizen. I've even served as an officer in the
U.S. Navy. Nice guess on the UK, ANZ connection though. I did a masters
degree in the UK after I left the navy, and then moved to Australia for
about 15 months to complete my Ph.D. research. But I am back in the States
now, and have been for about 8 years. I live in Pittsburgh. It's a damn
nice city, by the way, although Canberra and Cambridge were both pretty nice
places to live, too. I eat red meat, potatoes, apple pie, and I'm a
registered republican (a rather pointless thing to be in Pittsburgh, which
hasn't elected a republican to the city council since the 1930s, but there
you go!). I'm sorry that I'm not the raving communist pinko foriegner that
you took me for, but I hope that the fact that I have lived overseas,
however briefly, gives you the license you need to continue to talk down to
me (and for that matter, anyone at all) as if I were a four-year-old.
Because every time you do so, you help put me in my place. Every once and a
while, I begin to think of myself as an adult, or even as a human being, and
I need to be slapped back in line by my intellectual betters. Thanks for
giving me my daily shot of reality.

Oh, and I really was talking about the president of the flying club. After
reading through the original post, I saw all kinds of things in what was
sent to the members of OP's club which indicated the the club's president
was using this new rule as an opportunity to throw his weight around. I
thought that was clear, but maybe I could have spelled it out a bit more
clearly. Gig sure seemed to understand what I was saying, but I apologize
if I confused you. I'll try to stick to single-syllables in the future, I
promise!

And Gig is right, you know. You really should get a grip. Not every last
thing is about federal politics... even this close to the election.


---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.778 / Virus Database: 525 - Release Date: 10/15/2004

[G.R. Patterson III]

Geoffrey Barnes wrote:
>
> I thought that was clear, .....

It was.

George Patterson
If a man gets into a fight 3,000 miles away from home, he *had* to have
been looking for it.

[Jon Woellhaf]

I nominate Geoffrey Barnes for the annual RAP "Best Retort of the Year"
award.

"Geoffrey Barnes" > wrote in message
nk.net...
> Daniel,
>
> First, I really am a U.S. citizen. I've even served as an officer in the
> U.S. Navy. Nice guess on the UK, ANZ connection though. I did a masters
> degree in the UK after I left the navy, and then moved to Australia for
> about 15 months to complete my Ph.D. research. But I am back in the
States
> now, and have been for about 8 years. I live in Pittsburgh. It's a damn
> nice city, by the way, although Canberra and Cambridge were both pretty
nice
> places to live, too. I eat red meat, potatoes, apple pie, and I'm a
> registered republican (a rather pointless thing to be in Pittsburgh, which
> hasn't elected a republican to the city council since the 1930s, but there
> you go!). I'm sorry that I'm not the raving communist pinko foriegner
that
> you took me for, but I hope that the fact that I have lived overseas,
> however briefly, gives you the license you need to continue to talk down
to
> me (and for that matter, anyone at all) as if I were a four-year-old.
> Because every time you do so, you help put me in my place. Every once and
a
> while, I begin to think of myself as an adult, or even as a human being,
and
> I need to be slapped back in line by my intellectual betters. Thanks for
> giving me my daily shot of reality.
>
> Oh, and I really was talking about the president of the flying club.
After
> reading through the original post, I saw all kinds of things in what was
> sent to the members of OP's club which indicated the the club's president
> was using this new rule as an opportunity to throw his weight around. I
> thought that was clear, but maybe I could have spelled it out a bit more
> clearly. Gig sure seemed to understand what I was saying, but I apologize
> if I confused you. I'll try to stick to single-syllables in the future, I
> promise!
>
> And Gig is right, you know. You really should get a grip. Not every last
> thing is about federal politics... even this close to the election.
>
>
> ---
> Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
> Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
> Version: 6.0.778 / Virus Database: 525 - Release Date: 10/15/2004
>
>

[John G.]

"Geoffrey Barnes" > wrote in news:9%Mdd.3237$5i5.311
@newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net:

> And I thought *I* was a power-hungry glory hound as the V.P. of my club.
> But your president really sounds like he is trying to throw his weight
> around on this one. He's really got me beat!
>
That's just one of the reasons that I left Squadron 2.


--
John Godwin
Silicon Rallye Inc.

[Bob Chilcoat]

Hear hear!

--
Bob (Also an American who did both his advanced degrees abroad -UK in my
case. Good people over there.)

I don't have to like Bush and Cheney (Or Kerry, for that matter) to love
America

"Jon Woellhaf" > wrote in message
news:zbSdd.166594$He1.114432@attbi_s01...
> I nominate Geoffrey Barnes for the annual RAP "Best Retort of the Year"
> award.
>

[John Galban]

"Daniel L. Lieberman" > wrote in message >...
> Gig,
>
> Read again carefully. First) he says "your president" if it was the
> president of HIS flying club he should or would have said MY president.
<snip>

I read the thread carefully (I suggest you try again) and it was
obvious to me that Geoffrey was replying to Bay Aviator about the
president of Bay Aviator's club.
>
> In any event I have accomplished my goal of explaining to a probably UK or
> ANZUS citizen the nature of the US government and see nothing to be gained
> by further continuing this thread.

I'm sure that the non-U.S. members of this group were most
enlightened by your condescending post. A truly admirable goal.

John Galban=====>N4BQ (PA28-180)