Who has started implementing the TSA rule?

[David Brooks]

OK, flight instructors, have you been doing your patriotic duty since midday
Wednesday? Remember, under the thoroughly amended rule:

1) If a non-citizen, with no pilot certificate, wants to learn to fly, you
tell them that they have to submit to TSA: name, including aliases, their
brand new TSA ID number, a copy of their passport and visa, all the
information needed to get the visa and passport and previous visas and
passports, their country of birth, all current and past countries of
citizenship, their date of birth, dates and location of training, type of
training, fingerprints, address, phone number, addresses for the past 5
years, gender, a $130 fee, and any other information required by TSA. Then
you have to notify TSA about their request and submit a photograph. Then,
and only then, can you let them in your hot air balloon.

2) If a citizen, with no pilot certificate, wants to learn to fly, you have
to determine and continue to determine they are a citizen, and make a
specifically worded entry in their logbook (which they don't have yet)
referring to 49 CFR 1552.3(h). Everyone knows the wording, right?

Any CFIs want to recount how they have managed their newest students? I
don't expect to hear from anyone who has not done the above - after all,
you'd be admitting to breaking the law.

-- David Brooks
Believe!!!!!

[Peter MacPherson]

Is it just me or do you see CFI's avoiding all non-US students.
Why deal with all this crap that can come back to haunt you
when you forgot to "dot an i, or cross a t". What's next....CFI's being
accused of "profiling"? Or what if a non-US citizen claims to be
one and gives you a bogus passport or birth certificate? Are
we going to lose all of our certificates over this?



"David Brooks" > wrote in message
...
> OK, flight instructors, have you been doing your patriotic duty since
> midday
> Wednesday? Remember, under the thoroughly amended rule:
>
> 1) If a non-citizen, with no pilot certificate, wants to learn to fly, you
> tell them that they have to submit to TSA: name, including aliases, their
> brand new TSA ID number, a copy of their passport and visa, all the
> information needed to get the visa and passport and previous visas and
> passports, their country of birth, all current and past countries of
> citizenship, their date of birth, dates and location of training, type of
> training, fingerprints, address, phone number, addresses for the past 5
> years, gender, a $130 fee, and any other information required by TSA. Then
> you have to notify TSA about their request and submit a photograph. Then,
> and only then, can you let them in your hot air balloon.
>
> 2) If a citizen, with no pilot certificate, wants to learn to fly, you
> have
> to determine and continue to determine they are a citizen, and make a
> specifically worded entry in their logbook (which they don't have yet)
> referring to 49 CFR 1552.3(h). Everyone knows the wording, right?
>
> Any CFIs want to recount how they have managed their newest students? I
> don't expect to hear from anyone who has not done the above - after all,
> you'd be admitting to breaking the law.
>
> -- David Brooks
> Believe!!!!!
>
>

[Jim Burns]

As I understand it, the "training" required of CFI's by the TSA rule, still
isn't available. Last I looked at their website it said by the end of Oct
it would be posted. Anybody know different?

Jim


---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.782 / Virus Database: 528 - Release Date: 10/22/2004

[Chris]

"David Brooks" > wrote in message
...
> OK, flight instructors, have you been doing your patriotic duty since
> midday
> Wednesday? Remember, under the thoroughly amended rule:
>
> 1) If a non-citizen, with no pilot certificate, wants to learn to fly, you
> tell them that they have to submit to TSA: name, including aliases, their
> brand new TSA ID number, a copy of their passport and visa, all the
> information needed to get the visa and passport and previous visas and
> passports, their country of birth, all current and past countries of
> citizenship, their date of birth, dates and location of training, type of
> training, fingerprints, address, phone number, addresses for the past 5
> years, gender, a $130 fee, and any other information required by TSA. Then
> you have to notify TSA about their request and submit a photograph. Then,
> and only then, can you let them in your hot air balloon.
>
> 2) If a citizen, with no pilot certificate, wants to learn to fly, you
> have
> to determine and continue to determine they are a citizen, and make a
> specifically worded entry in their logbook (which they don't have yet)
> referring to 49 CFR 1552.3(h). Everyone knows the wording, right?
>
> Any CFIs want to recount how they have managed their newest students? I
> don't expect to hear from anyone who has not done the above - after all,
> you'd be admitting to breaking the law.

Non US students need a visa to train and there is only a small number of
flight schools around able to issue form I-20 needed to get a M1 visa.
Without this form and the visa, students will not get past immigration.

Therefore there should not be many CFIs with non resident alien students
unless they are in a M1 approved flight school. These schools are used to
handling the necessary paperwork and this only represents a bit more.

Unlikely to be a problem therefore for the independent freelance instructor
without M1 approval as having non resident alien students is a breech of
regulations by both the instructor and the student who would get summarily
deported and possibly banned from future entry to the US.

What I would like to see is that the TSA requirements replace the visa
requirements and therefore provide more instructors with legal instruction
opportunities for non resident aliens. The added paperwork is surely worth
having a better business opportunity. After all I know of many potential
students who would like to train anywhere but in the Florida pilot
factories; but can you find an M1 approved school outside Florida and Lower
California....... very difficult. I for one would love to do some mountain
flying training up in Oregon but it is impossible legally as a non resident
alien. (unless someone knows of an M1 approved school) However, I can rent a
plane in Oregon.

Just some thoughts to see how there could be something good to come of this.

[David Brooks]

"Chris" > wrote in message
...
>
> "David Brooks" > wrote in message
> ...
> > OK, flight instructors, have you been doing your patriotic duty since
> > midday
> > Wednesday? Remember, under the thoroughly amended rule:

<snip>

> Non US students need a visa to train and there is only a small number of
> flight schools around able to issue form I-20 needed to get a M1 visa.
> Without this form and the visa, students will not get past immigration.
>
> Therefore there should not be many CFIs with non resident alien students
> unless they are in a M1 approved flight school. These schools are used to
> handling the necessary paperwork and this only represents a bit more.

No doubt, if you restrict your analysis to nonresidents.

But the TSA has affirmed that their rule applies to resident aliens also. We
form 13% of the pilot population, and we not only got past immigration, we
have jobs and homes here. That means we form 13% of the people walking on
the door of every flight school and independent instructor in the country
(unless you want to reduce that number by those who have foreign
certificates; I haven't even thought whether their conversion to a US
certificate would be covered by the rule).

-- David Brooks
Believe!!!!!

[lance smith]

my flight school has started implementation....

-lance smith

[C J Campbell]

I have not really been that concerned about it as I am not currently taking
new students, nor will I be taking any more on for the rest of the winter.

[BTIZ]

Dave.. the specific wording required for the log book was posted on 20
October.
Make the entry and sell them the $5 logbook as part of the intro package.

I think you need to get current?
BT

"David Brooks" > wrote in message
...
> OK, flight instructors, have you been doing your patriotic duty since
> midday
> Wednesday? Remember, under the thoroughly amended rule:
>
> 1) If a non-citizen, with no pilot certificate, wants to learn to fly, you
> tell them that they have to submit to TSA: name, including aliases, their
> brand new TSA ID number, a copy of their passport and visa, all the
> information needed to get the visa and passport and previous visas and
> passports, their country of birth, all current and past countries of
> citizenship, their date of birth, dates and location of training, type of
> training, fingerprints, address, phone number, addresses for the past 5
> years, gender, a $130 fee, and any other information required by TSA. Then
> you have to notify TSA about their request and submit a photograph. Then,
> and only then, can you let them in your hot air balloon.
>
> 2) If a citizen, with no pilot certificate, wants to learn to fly, you
> have
> to determine and continue to determine they are a citizen, and make a
> specifically worded entry in their logbook (which they don't have yet)
> referring to 49 CFR 1552.3(h). Everyone knows the wording, right?
>
> Any CFIs want to recount how they have managed their newest students? I
> don't expect to hear from anyone who has not done the above - after all,
> you'd be admitting to breaking the law.
>
> -- David Brooks
> Believe!!!!!
>
>

[BTIZ]

the security training require of ALL CfIs.. not just those instructing
non-citizens is not due until Jan.

That's why you can find it yet on the web site. And it is not the end of
October yet.. they still have until Friday.

BT

"Jim Burns" > wrote in message
...
> As I understand it, the "training" required of CFI's by the TSA rule,
> still
> isn't available. Last I looked at their website it said by the end of Oct
> it would be posted. Anybody know different?
>
> Jim
>
>
> ---
> Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
> Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
> Version: 6.0.782 / Virus Database: 528 - Release Date: 10/22/2004
>
>

[zatatime]

On Tue, 26 Oct 2004 05:50:12 +0200 (CEST) * -2.6 BAYES_00 BODY:
Bayesian spam probability is 0 to 1% * [score: 0.0000] * -0.5 AWL
AWL: From: address is in the auto white-list, Nomen Nescio
]> wrote:

>According to my local FBO, things are now on "hold" for the next 90 days.
>I guess the Feds need time to figure out the meaning of what they wrote.


They need to re-check their sources.

z

[Ralf Gropp]

David Brooks wrote:
> OK, flight instructors, have you been doing your patriotic
duty since
> midday Wednesday? Remember, under the thoroughly amended
rule:
>
> 1) If a non-citizen, with no pilot certificate, wants to
learn to
> fly,

What is if the non-citizen have a foreign
glider licence and wan't to make PPL-A
in the staates?

[Ralf Gropp]

Chris wrote:
> Non US students need a visa to train and there is only a
small number
> of flight schools around able to issue form I-20 needed to
get a M1
> visa. Without this form and the visa, students will not
get past
> immigration.
>
As fare I know for part time study til
18 hours/week besides holidays no
visa is needed.

[Dylan Smith]

In article >, David Brooks wrote:
> But the TSA has affirmed that their rule applies to resident aliens also. We
> form 13% of the pilot population, and we not only got past immigration, we

Also, I think the cost of doing the full TSA thing borne by the student
is in the region of $450 (there's more than one fee-bearing process you
have to go through).

Fortunately, you can still get a BFR or checkout without the TSA
requirements (the TSA has since clarified the requirements and
specifically excluded BFRs and other recurrent instruction for
already-rated pilots) - otherwise all my future flying vacations would
have been in Canada, not the US.

In fact, for getting new ratings, Canada's a better bet. It's probably
cheaper to pay for a CFI in a border town to come over with the N-reg
plane than pay all the TSA fees. This is why the TSA's assinine new
regulations won't make a speck of difference - there are other countries
without these assinine rules.

--
Dylan Smith, Castletown, Isle of Man
Flying: http://www.dylansmith.net
Frontier Elite Universe: http://www.alioth.net
"Maintain thine airspeed, lest the ground come up and smite thee"

[Christopher Brian Colohan]

"Chris" > writes:
> Non US students need a visa to train and there is only a small number of
> flight schools around able to issue form I-20 needed to get a M1 visa.
> Without this form and the visa, students will not get past immigration.
>
> Therefore there should not be many CFIs with non resident alien students
> unless they are in a M1 approved flight school. These schools are used to
> handling the necessary paperwork and this only represents a bit more.

What about students who are here in the US to go to college? I am a
F1 student in Pittsburgh, going to grad school full time. Is it no
longer possible for me to learn to fly in my free time? Or do I need
to get special permission from the government?

Chris
--
Chris Colohan Email: PGP: finger
Web: www.colohan.com Phone: (412)268-4751

[David Brooks]

"BTIZ" > wrote in message
news:Hfifd.44009$bk1.22144@fed1read05...
> "David Brooks" > wrote in message
> ...

> > 2) If a citizen, with no pilot certificate, wants to learn to fly, you
> > have
> > to determine and continue to determine they are a citizen, and make a
> > specifically worded entry in their logbook (which they don't have yet)
> > referring to 49 CFR 1552.3(h). Everyone knows the wording, right?

> Dave.. the specific wording required for the log book was posted on 20
> October.
> Make the entry and sell them the $5 logbook as part of the intro package.
>
> I think you need to get current?

:-)

I was referring to the logbook they don't have yet, of course.

-- David Brooks
Believe!!!!!

[David Brooks]

"BTIZ" > wrote in message
news:Hfifd.44009$bk1.22144@fed1read05...
> Dave.. the specific wording required for the log book was posted on 20
> October.
> Make the entry and sell them the $5 logbook as part of the intro package.

Are you getting tired of my postings yet? Talk to me about specific
wording...

"TSA interprets the definition of 'flight training' to include only that
training that a candidate could use toward a new airman's certificate or
rating." Note the word "could".

I get my Private in a 172. I decide to fill my logbook with the add-on
endorsements. I go and get tailwheel training and the instructor signs me
off. I go and get high-performance training and the instructor signs me off.
I walk towards a Cardinal... and the TSA jumps up in front. Why?

Because the complex training *could* be used towards my theoretical future
Commercial certificate, that's why. (note 61.129 doesn't say the training
has to be in the context of being enrolled in a commercial pilot course).

-- David Brooks
Believe!!!!!

[David Brooks]

"Christopher Brian Colohan" > wrote in message
.. .
> "Chris" > writes:

> What about students who are here in the US to go to college? I am a
> F1 student in Pittsburgh, going to grad school full time. Is it no
> longer possible for me to learn to fly in my free time?

Yes, it is possible.

> Or do I need
> to get special permission from the government?

Yes, you do. Postpone that initial hot-air ballon lesson and start gathering
old passports.

-- David Brooks
Believe!!!!!

[Chris]

"Ralf Gropp" > wrote in message
...
> Chris wrote:
>> Non US students need a visa to train and there is only a
> small number
>> of flight schools around able to issue form I-20 needed to
> get a M1
>> visa. Without this form and the visa, students will not
> get past
>> immigration.
>>
> As fare I know for part time study til
> 18 hours/week besides holidays no
> visa is needed.

No there is no limit on hours I had to get a visa for 5 hours of training.
He is an except from an email from the US embassy in London.

If you are to receive flight training in the U.S. you will require an F-1,
M-1 or J-1 visa. You should contact the flight school which will provide
you with either an I-20F or M, or a DS-2019 which is required to apply for
the visa.

If you have a private pilots license and you merely wish to build up flight
hours, you will require a B-2 visa. While you may be eligible to travel
visa free under the Visa Waiver Program, if otherwise qualified, since the
introduction of the Applicability of Aviation and Transportation Security
Act, we would recommend that you apply for a B-2 visa.
When applying for the B-2 visa and entry into the U.S. you will be required
to furnish a letter from the flight school stating the type of aircraft you
will be flying.

Detailed information on visa application procedures and advice on how to
schedule an interview at the Embassy is available from our website at
www.usembassy.org.uk

If your flight school cannot issue you with the appropriate form then we
regret that you cannot apply for the necessary visa.

Thank you for your email correspondence.

Consular Information Unit
U.S. Embassy London
CONS/CIU/GMS

[Colin Gibb]

What's this about M1s?

I am a Canadian Citizen, non-resident Alien down here on TN status. I have
been training since May, and don't need any special visas, etc.
Are you referring to people who want to come to the US strictly to train?
Or non-resident aliens who are already in the country for another reason?


"Chris" > wrote in message
...
>
> "David Brooks" > wrote in message
> ...
> > OK, flight instructors, have you been doing your patriotic duty since
> > midday
> > Wednesday? Remember, under the thoroughly amended rule:
> >
> > 1) If a non-citizen, with no pilot certificate, wants to learn to fly,
you
> > tell them that they have to submit to TSA: name, including aliases,
their
> > brand new TSA ID number, a copy of their passport and visa, all the
> > information needed to get the visa and passport and previous visas and
> > passports, their country of birth, all current and past countries of
> > citizenship, their date of birth, dates and location of training, type
of
> > training, fingerprints, address, phone number, addresses for the past 5
> > years, gender, a $130 fee, and any other information required by TSA.
Then
> > you have to notify TSA about their request and submit a photograph.
Then,
> > and only then, can you let them in your hot air balloon.
> >
> > 2) If a citizen, with no pilot certificate, wants to learn to fly, you
> > have
> > to determine and continue to determine they are a citizen, and make a
> > specifically worded entry in their logbook (which they don't have yet)
> > referring to 49 CFR 1552.3(h). Everyone knows the wording, right?
> >
> > Any CFIs want to recount how they have managed their newest students? I
> > don't expect to hear from anyone who has not done the above - after all,
> > you'd be admitting to breaking the law.
>
> Non US students need a visa to train and there is only a small number of
> flight schools around able to issue form I-20 needed to get a M1 visa.
> Without this form and the visa, students will not get past immigration.
>
> Therefore there should not be many CFIs with non resident alien students
> unless they are in a M1 approved flight school. These schools are used to
> handling the necessary paperwork and this only represents a bit more.
>
> Unlikely to be a problem therefore for the independent freelance
instructor
> without M1 approval as having non resident alien students is a breech of
> regulations by both the instructor and the student who would get summarily
> deported and possibly banned from future entry to the US.
>
> What I would like to see is that the TSA requirements replace the visa
> requirements and therefore provide more instructors with legal instruction
> opportunities for non resident aliens. The added paperwork is surely worth
> having a better business opportunity. After all I know of many potential
> students who would like to train anywhere but in the Florida pilot
> factories; but can you find an M1 approved school outside Florida and
Lower
> California....... very difficult. I for one would love to do some
mountain
> flying training up in Oregon but it is impossible legally as a non
resident
> alien. (unless someone knows of an M1 approved school) However, I can rent
a
> plane in Oregon.
>
> Just some thoughts to see how there could be something good to come of
this.
>
>
>

[Andrew Sarangan]

"David Brooks" > wrote in
:

> "Chris" > wrote in message
> ...
>>
>> "David Brooks" > wrote in message
>> ...
>> > OK, flight instructors, have you been doing your patriotic duty
>> > since midday
>> > Wednesday? Remember, under the thoroughly amended rule:
>
> <snip>
>
>> Non US students need a visa to train and there is only a small number
>> of flight schools around able to issue form I-20 needed to get a M1
>> visa. Without this form and the visa, students will not get past
>> immigration.
>>
>> Therefore there should not be many CFIs with non resident alien
>> students unless they are in a M1 approved flight school. These
>> schools are used to handling the necessary paperwork and this only
>> represents a bit more.
>
> No doubt, if you restrict your analysis to nonresidents.
>
> But the TSA has affirmed that their rule applies to resident aliens
> also. We form 13% of the pilot population, and we not only got past
> immigration, we have jobs and homes here. That means we form 13% of
> the people walking on the door of every flight school and independent
> instructor in the country (unless you want to reduce that number by
> those who have foreign certificates; I haven't even thought whether
> their conversion to a US certificate would be covered by the rule).
>
> -- David Brooks
> Believe!!!!!
>
>



How does a permanent resident student get an I-20?? He already lives and
works in this country.




Posted Via Usenet.com Premium Usenet Newsgroup Services
----------------------------------------------------------
** SPEED ** RETENTION ** COMPLETION ** ANONYMITY **
----------------------------------------------------------
http://www.usenet.com

[David Brooks]

"Andrew Sarangan" > wrote in message
. 4...
> "David Brooks" > wrote in
> :
>
> > "Chris" > wrote in message
> > ...
> >>
> >> "David Brooks" > wrote in message
> >> ...
> >> > OK, flight instructors, have you been doing your patriotic duty
> >> > since midday
> >> > Wednesday? Remember, under the thoroughly amended rule:
> >
> > <snip>
> >
> >> Non US students need a visa to train and there is only a small number
> >> of flight schools around able to issue form I-20 needed to get a M1
> >> visa. Without this form and the visa, students will not get past
> >> immigration.
> >>
> >> Therefore there should not be many CFIs with non resident alien
> >> students unless they are in a M1 approved flight school. These
> >> schools are used to handling the necessary paperwork and this only
> >> represents a bit more.
> >
> > No doubt, if you restrict your analysis to nonresidents.
> >
> > But the TSA has affirmed that their rule applies to resident aliens
> > also. We form 13% of the pilot population, and we not only got past
> > immigration, we have jobs and homes here. That means we form 13% of
> > the people walking on the door of every flight school and independent
> > instructor in the country (unless you want to reduce that number by
> > those who have foreign certificates; I haven't even thought whether
> > their conversion to a US certificate would be covered by the rule).
> >
> > -- David Brooks
> > Believe!!!!!
> >
> >
>
>
>
> How does a permanent resident student get an I-20?? He already lives and
> works in this country.

I think you are agreeing with me. The IFR refers to all noncitizens and, in
the <12500 context, the visa issue is a red herring. The GA part of the rule
does not talk about visa issuance.

-- David Brooks
Believe!!!!!

[David Brooks]

"Colin Gibb" > wrote in message
...
> What's this about M1s?
>
> I am a Canadian Citizen, non-resident Alien down here on TN status. I
have
> been training since May, and don't need any special visas, etc.
> Are you referring to people who want to come to the US strictly to train?
> Or non-resident aliens who are already in the country for another reason?

The rule applies to people who come to he US strictly to train, non-resident
aliens who are already in the country for another reason, and resident
aliens who have lived in the country for 50 years. The TSA has explicitly
reaffirmed that definition.

But, since you have been in training since May you are, thanks to the
last-minute clarifications, grandfathered. If you finish one certificate and
start another after Dec 19, you need all the paperwork.

-- David Brooks
Believe!!!!!

> "Chris" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > "David Brooks" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > > OK, flight instructors, have you been doing your patriotic duty since
> > > midday
> > > Wednesday? Remember, under the thoroughly amended rule:
> > >
> > > 1) If a non-citizen, with no pilot certificate, wants to learn to fly,
> you
> > > tell them that they have to submit to TSA: name, including aliases,
> their
> > > brand new TSA ID number, a copy of their passport and visa, all the
> > > information needed to get the visa and passport and previous visas and
> > > passports, their country of birth, all current and past countries of
> > > citizenship, their date of birth, dates and location of training, type
> of
> > > training, fingerprints, address, phone number, addresses for the past
5
> > > years, gender, a $130 fee, and any other information required by TSA.
> Then
> > > you have to notify TSA about their request and submit a photograph.
> Then,
> > > and only then, can you let them in your hot air balloon.
> > >
> > > 2) If a citizen, with no pilot certificate, wants to learn to fly, you
> > > have
> > > to determine and continue to determine they are a citizen, and make a
> > > specifically worded entry in their logbook (which they don't have yet)
> > > referring to 49 CFR 1552.3(h). Everyone knows the wording, right?
> > >
> > > Any CFIs want to recount how they have managed their newest students?
I
> > > don't expect to hear from anyone who has not done the above - after
all,
> > > you'd be admitting to breaking the law.
> >
> > Non US students need a visa to train and there is only a small number of
> > flight schools around able to issue form I-20 needed to get a M1 visa.
> > Without this form and the visa, students will not get past immigration.
> >
> > Therefore there should not be many CFIs with non resident alien students
> > unless they are in a M1 approved flight school. These schools are used
to
> > handling the necessary paperwork and this only represents a bit more.
> >
> > Unlikely to be a problem therefore for the independent freelance
> instructor
> > without M1 approval as having non resident alien students is a breech of
> > regulations by both the instructor and the student who would get
summarily
> > deported and possibly banned from future entry to the US.
> >
> > What I would like to see is that the TSA requirements replace the visa
> > requirements and therefore provide more instructors with legal
instruction
> > opportunities for non resident aliens. The added paperwork is surely
worth
> > having a better business opportunity. After all I know of many
potential
> > students who would like to train anywhere but in the Florida pilot
> > factories; but can you find an M1 approved school outside Florida and
> Lower
> > California....... very difficult. I for one would love to do some
> mountain
> > flying training up in Oregon but it is impossible legally as a non
> resident
> > alien. (unless someone knows of an M1 approved school) However, I can
rent
> a
> > plane in Oregon.
> >
> > Just some thoughts to see how there could be something good to come of
> this.
> >
> >
> >
>
>

[Colin Gibb]

Thank god I don't have to go through it all right now..I really wouldn't
have to take a break at this point to get all the paperwork together. I'll
just make sure that once I get my PPL (hopefully early next year), I have
all the neccessary paperwork, and register with TSA before I start training
for my Intstrument Ticket.
That's definately coming right after I get my PPL...



"David Brooks" > wrote in message
...
> "Colin Gibb" > wrote in message
> ...
> > What's this about M1s?
> >
> > I am a Canadian Citizen, non-resident Alien down here on TN status. I
> have
> > been training since May, and don't need any special visas, etc.
> > Are you referring to people who want to come to the US strictly to
train?
> > Or non-resident aliens who are already in the country for another
reason?
>
> The rule applies to people who come to he US strictly to train,
non-resident
> aliens who are already in the country for another reason, and resident
> aliens who have lived in the country for 50 years. The TSA has explicitly
> reaffirmed that definition.
>
> But, since you have been in training since May you are, thanks to the
> last-minute clarifications, grandfathered. If you finish one certificate
and
> start another after Dec 19, you need all the paperwork.
>
> -- David Brooks
> Believe!!!!!
>
> > "Chris" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > >
> > > "David Brooks" > wrote in message
> > > ...
> > > > OK, flight instructors, have you been doing your patriotic duty
since
> > > > midday
> > > > Wednesday? Remember, under the thoroughly amended rule:
> > > >
> > > > 1) If a non-citizen, with no pilot certificate, wants to learn to
fly,
> > you
> > > > tell them that they have to submit to TSA: name, including aliases,
> > their
> > > > brand new TSA ID number, a copy of their passport and visa, all the
> > > > information needed to get the visa and passport and previous visas
and
> > > > passports, their country of birth, all current and past countries of
> > > > citizenship, their date of birth, dates and location of training,
type
> > of
> > > > training, fingerprints, address, phone number, addresses for the
past
> 5
> > > > years, gender, a $130 fee, and any other information required by
TSA.
> > Then
> > > > you have to notify TSA about their request and submit a photograph.
> > Then,
> > > > and only then, can you let them in your hot air balloon.
> > > >
> > > > 2) If a citizen, with no pilot certificate, wants to learn to fly,
you
> > > > have
> > > > to determine and continue to determine they are a citizen, and make
a
> > > > specifically worded entry in their logbook (which they don't have
yet)
> > > > referring to 49 CFR 1552.3(h). Everyone knows the wording, right?
> > > >
> > > > Any CFIs want to recount how they have managed their newest
students?
> I
> > > > don't expect to hear from anyone who has not done the above - after
> all,
> > > > you'd be admitting to breaking the law.
> > >
> > > Non US students need a visa to train and there is only a small number
of
> > > flight schools around able to issue form I-20 needed to get a M1 visa.
> > > Without this form and the visa, students will not get past
immigration.
> > >
> > > Therefore there should not be many CFIs with non resident alien
students
> > > unless they are in a M1 approved flight school. These schools are used
> to
> > > handling the necessary paperwork and this only represents a bit more.
> > >
> > > Unlikely to be a problem therefore for the independent freelance
> > instructor
> > > without M1 approval as having non resident alien students is a breech
of
> > > regulations by both the instructor and the student who would get
> summarily
> > > deported and possibly banned from future entry to the US.
> > >
> > > What I would like to see is that the TSA requirements replace the visa
> > > requirements and therefore provide more instructors with legal
> instruction
> > > opportunities for non resident aliens. The added paperwork is surely
> worth
> > > having a better business opportunity. After all I know of many
> potential
> > > students who would like to train anywhere but in the Florida pilot
> > > factories; but can you find an M1 approved school outside Florida and
> > Lower
> > > California....... very difficult. I for one would love to do some
> > mountain
> > > flying training up in Oregon but it is impossible legally as a non
> > resident
> > > alien. (unless someone knows of an M1 approved school) However, I can
> rent
> > a
> > > plane in Oregon.
> > >
> > > Just some thoughts to see how there could be something good to come of
> > this.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>

[Chris]

"Colin Gibb" > wrote in message
...
> What's this about M1s?
>
> I am a Canadian Citizen, non-resident Alien down here on TN status. I
> have
> been training since May, and don't need any special visas, etc.
> Are you referring to people who want to come to the US strictly to train?
> Or non-resident aliens who are already in the country for another reason?

As I understand it, if you have entered the US as a non resident alien under
any status then you need to get approval to change that status.

All I can do is suggest you check with the US embassy in Canada. When I
made my enquiry I was planning to visit the US with my family on holiday.
However as I wanted to do 5 days training for my night qualification I had
to get an M1 visa. When we arrived in the US, my family were admitted under
the visa waiver program and I had to go through the finger print and photo
routine whilst an immigration officer asked me whether I was a terrorist.
The flight school I used will not train non resident aliens without a visa
issued alongside an I-20M for issued by them.

They know the rules and can give you miles better advice than here. all I
can do is give you my circumstances, I suggest you check your own.

There is no defence saying that you took your advice from RAP or RAS instead
of the Embassy.

You know what I mean.

[Chris]

"David Brooks" > wrote in message
...
> "Andrew Sarangan" > wrote in message
> . 4...
>> "David Brooks" > wrote in
>> :
>>
>> > "Chris" > wrote in message
>> > ...
>> >>
>> >> "David Brooks" > wrote in message
>> >> ...
>> >> > OK, flight instructors, have you been doing your patriotic duty
>> >> > since midday
>> >> > Wednesday? Remember, under the thoroughly amended rule:
>> >
>> > <snip>
>> >
>> >> Non US students need a visa to train and there is only a small number
>> >> of flight schools around able to issue form I-20 needed to get a M1
>> >> visa. Without this form and the visa, students will not get past
>> >> immigration.
>> >>
>> >> Therefore there should not be many CFIs with non resident alien
>> >> students unless they are in a M1 approved flight school. These
>> >> schools are used to handling the necessary paperwork and this only
>> >> represents a bit more.
>> >
>> > No doubt, if you restrict your analysis to nonresidents.
>> >
>> > But the TSA has affirmed that their rule applies to resident aliens
>> > also. We form 13% of the pilot population, and we not only got past
>> > immigration, we have jobs and homes here. That means we form 13% of
>> > the people walking on the door of every flight school and independent
>> > instructor in the country (unless you want to reduce that number by
>> > those who have foreign certificates; I haven't even thought whether
>> > their conversion to a US certificate would be covered by the rule).
>> >
>> > -- David Brooks
>> > Believe!!!!!
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
>>
>> How does a permanent resident student get an I-20?? He already lives and
>> works in this country.
>
> I think you are agreeing with me. The IFR refers to all noncitizens and,
> in
> the <12500 context, the visa issue is a red herring. The GA part of the
> rule
> does not talk about visa issuance.

Wrong the visa is not a red herring at all. Visas apply to all types of
training irrespective of the size of the aircraft.
The IFR does actually refer to visas as one of the requirements for non
resident aliens. Resident aliens have no need of a visa as they already have
leave to reside in the US.

Here is a link about the need for a visa which is absolute. The IFR from the
TSA just puts bells and whistles on the process.

http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=65838

Here is an extract from a DHS site which does mention visas

Alien Flight Student Program Overview:

Flight training for foreign pilots, foreign student pilots, and other non-US
citizens (e.g. green card holders):

a.. Flight schools may not start flight training (aircraft or flight
simulator) until the following have been accomplished:
a.. Photo of the pilot or student taken "when the candidate arrived at
the flight school for training" must be submitted to TSA. (You can't arrive
with photos in your wallet)
b.. Pilots and students must submit required background check
information on a form available on-line at:

https://www.flightschoolcandidates.gov
This may be submitted from their overseas location prior to entering the
US for training.

c.. Pilots and students must submit fingerprints (10-fingers) to TSA.
The American Association of Airport Executives (AAAE) is the clearinghouse
for all fingerprint submissions to TSA. Information on their procedures can
be obtained at 703-797-2550. There are currently no procedures in place for
pilots or students to have their fingerprints taken at a foreign location.
d.. Flight schools will obtain a web access code from their local FSDO,
then submit to TSA information that the pilot or student wants to start
flight training and the type of training requested.
e.. Pilots and students must provide the flight school with a current
and valid passport and visa, if appropriate.
b.. Flight training (aircraft or flight simulator) may begin immediately
upon submission of all required items to TSA and AAAE.
c.. Flight training will be immediately terminated TSA notifies flight
school to cease training.
d.. Flight training not started within 180-days from submission of
required items to TSA and AAAE voids all submitted information and the
applicant must resubmit all the information.
e.. The flight school must maintain a copy of the appropriate documents on
file for a minimum of 5 years.
Contact Information
For questions on the Alien Flight Student Program (AFSP), please contact the
AFSP Help Desk at 703-542-1222. E-mail questions are also being accepted at: