TSA Rule... what constitutes "training"?

[Geoffrey Barnes]

As I understand the TSA rule on alien flight training -- and please correct
me if I am wrong about this -- anyone who is already engaged in flight
training does not need to undergo the background checks. Now if that's true
(and it might not be), what does a student need to have done to have started
their flight training prior to Oct. 20? For example, if a foreign student
came in and did a 30-minute "discovery flight" on Oct. 15, and logged the
time as a half-hour "lesson", were they already engaged in flight training
when the rule took effect? What if the discovery flight took place in
August, or June, or April, or a year ago?


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[Richard Russell]

On Tue, 26 Oct 2004 17:45:30 GMT, "Geoffrey Barnes"
> wrote:

>As I understand the TSA rule on alien flight training -- and please correct
>me if I am wrong about this -- anyone who is already engaged in flight
>training does not need to undergo the background checks. Now if that's true
>(and it might not be), what does a student need to have done to have started
>their flight training prior to Oct. 20? For example, if a foreign student
>came in and did a 30-minute "discovery flight" on Oct. 15, and logged the
>time as a half-hour "lesson", were they already engaged in flight training
>when the rule took effect? What if the discovery flight took place in
>August, or June, or April, or a year ago?
>
Flight training is defined as instruction received from a flight
school in an aircraft or aircraft simulator. Any such activity that
is noted in a logbook prior to October 20th would exempt the student
from the new TSA procedures (as I interpret the regs). There is a
time limit for lessons to begin after a new student that is subject to
the regs is cleared. He must begin lessons within 180 days. I'm not
sure if there are any time limitations on the situation that you
proposed.
Rich Russell

[Mike Reichfeld]

U r wrong BIG TIME.

Read the rule as corrected. Only instruction that lead to another/higher
rating or certificate is falling under the rule. All others - are not
instruction under the rule.

As always - TSA stupidity at its prime. The bad guys can get instruction
from Microsoft flight simulator if they want to.


"Richard Russell" > wrote in message
...
> On Tue, 26 Oct 2004 17:45:30 GMT, "Geoffrey Barnes"
> > wrote:
>
>>As I understand the TSA rule on alien flight training -- and please
>>correct
>>me if I am wrong about this -- anyone who is already engaged in flight
>>training does not need to undergo the background checks. Now if that's
>>true
>>(and it might not be), what does a student need to have done to have
>>started
>>their flight training prior to Oct. 20? For example, if a foreign student
>>came in and did a 30-minute "discovery flight" on Oct. 15, and logged the
>>time as a half-hour "lesson", were they already engaged in flight training
>>when the rule took effect? What if the discovery flight took place in
>>August, or June, or April, or a year ago?
>>
> Flight training is defined as instruction received from a flight
> school in an aircraft or aircraft simulator. Any such activity that
> is noted in a logbook prior to October 20th would exempt the student
> from the new TSA procedures (as I interpret the regs). There is a
> time limit for lessons to begin after a new student that is subject to
> the regs is cleared. He must begin lessons within 180 days. I'm not
> sure if there are any time limitations on the situation that you
> proposed.
> Rich Russell

[Richard Russell]

On Wed, 27 Oct 2004 23:56:44 -0400, "Mike Reichfeld"
> wrote:

>U r wrong BIG TIME.
>
>Read the rule as corrected. Only instruction that lead to another/higher
>rating or certificate is falling under the rule. All others - are not
>instruction under the rule.
>
>As always - TSA stupidity at its prime. The bad guys can get instruction
>from Microsoft flight simulator if they want to.
>
>
>"Richard Russell" > wrote in message
...
>> On Tue, 26 Oct 2004 17:45:30 GMT, "Geoffrey Barnes"
>> > wrote:
>>
>>>As I understand the TSA rule on alien flight training -- and please
>>>correct
>>>me if I am wrong about this -- anyone who is already engaged in flight
>>>training does not need to undergo the background checks. Now if that's
>>>true
>>>(and it might not be), what does a student need to have done to have
>>>started
>>>their flight training prior to Oct. 20? For example, if a foreign student
>>>came in and did a 30-minute "discovery flight" on Oct. 15, and logged the
>>>time as a half-hour "lesson", were they already engaged in flight training
>>>when the rule took effect? What if the discovery flight took place in
>>>August, or June, or April, or a year ago?
>>>
>> Flight training is defined as instruction received from a flight
>> school in an aircraft or aircraft simulator. Any such activity that
>> is noted in a logbook prior to October 20th would exempt the student
>> from the new TSA procedures (as I interpret the regs). There is a
>> time limit for lessons to begin after a new student that is subject to
>> the regs is cleared. He must begin lessons within 180 days. I'm not
>> sure if there are any time limitations on the situation that you
>> proposed.
>> Rich Russell
>
I'm not wrong "big time". I am aware of the interpretation that
narrows the definition to training for a rating or certificate. The
question was clearly asked within the context of training for a
rating.
Rich Russell

[Andrew Sarangan]

Richard Russell > wrote in message >...
> On Tue, 26 Oct 2004 17:45:30 GMT, "Geoffrey Barnes"
> > wrote:
>
> >As I understand the TSA rule on alien flight training -- and please correct
> >me if I am wrong about this -- anyone who is already engaged in flight
> >training does not need to undergo the background checks. Now if that's true
> >(and it might not be), what does a student need to have done to have started
> >their flight training prior to Oct. 20? For example, if a foreign student
> >came in and did a 30-minute "discovery flight" on Oct. 15, and logged the
> >time as a half-hour "lesson", were they already engaged in flight training
> >when the rule took effect? What if the discovery flight took place in
> >August, or June, or April, or a year ago?
> >
> Flight training is defined as instruction received from a flight
> school in an aircraft or aircraft simulator. Any such activity that
> is noted in a logbook prior to October 20th would exempt the student
> from the new TSA procedures (as I interpret the regs). There is a
> time limit for lessons to begin after a new student that is subject to
> the regs is cleared. He must begin lessons within 180 days. I'm not
> sure if there are any time limitations on the situation that you
> proposed.
> Rich Russell

So does that mean a foreign national who had taken a lesson prior to
Oct 20 can go to any FBO within 180 days and continue training? Does
the 180-day clock get reset every time he takes a lesson, or is it
counted from the day of the first lesson?

[Brian Case]

<snip>
>
> As always - TSA stupidity at its prime. The bad guys can get instruction
> from Microsoft flight simulator if they want to.
>
<snip>

Better yet the new rules encourage thousands of foreign students (and
maybe a couple terrorists) to go to other countries to spend their
money to train. Training of Foriegn pilots in the US is/Usedtobe big
business.

[Richard Russell]

On 28 Oct 2004 09:52:56 -0700, (Andrew
Sarangan) wrote:

>Richard Russell > wrote in message >...
>> On Tue, 26 Oct 2004 17:45:30 GMT, "Geoffrey Barnes"
>> > wrote:
>>
>> >As I understand the TSA rule on alien flight training -- and please correct
>> >me if I am wrong about this -- anyone who is already engaged in flight
>> >training does not need to undergo the background checks. Now if that's true
>> >(and it might not be), what does a student need to have done to have started
>> >their flight training prior to Oct. 20? For example, if a foreign student
>> >came in and did a 30-minute "discovery flight" on Oct. 15, and logged the
>> >time as a half-hour "lesson", were they already engaged in flight training
>> >when the rule took effect? What if the discovery flight took place in
>> >August, or June, or April, or a year ago?
>> >
>> Flight training is defined as instruction received from a flight
>> school in an aircraft or aircraft simulator. Any such activity that
>> is noted in a logbook prior to October 20th would exempt the student
>> from the new TSA procedures (as I interpret the regs). There is a
>> time limit for lessons to begin after a new student that is subject to
>> the regs is cleared. He must begin lessons within 180 days. I'm not
>> sure if there are any time limitations on the situation that you
>> proposed.
>> Rich Russell
>
>So does that mean a foreign national who had taken a lesson prior to
>Oct 20 can go to any FBO within 180 days and continue training? Does
>the 180-day clock get reset every time he takes a lesson, or is it
>counted from the day of the first lesson?

You raise a couple of interesting issues and I can't answer them. If
the student took a lesson prior to Oct 20, I believe that he is
grandfathered and not subject to the new provisions at all. I don't
think the 180 day issue applies to him. It would be interesting to
see, however, if such a student could change to another FBO/CFI and
have them accept him as being grandfathered. I suspect that the new
CFI would be leery of that and may want to cover his butt by not
honoring his previously logged work. We'll have to wait and see how a
lot of different scenarios develop.

As far as the 180 days goes (for a new student that is subject to the
new rule) I know that he has to begin his lessons within 180 days of
approval but I don't know if he's subject to any sactions if there is
a lapse in his training of 180 days.
Rich Russell

[Chris]

"Richard Russell" > wrote in message
...
> On 28 Oct 2004 09:52:56 -0700, (Andrew
> Sarangan) wrote:
>
>>Richard Russell > wrote in message
>...
>>> On Tue, 26 Oct 2004 17:45:30 GMT, "Geoffrey Barnes"
>>> > wrote:
>>>
>>> >As I understand the TSA rule on alien flight training -- and please
>>> >correct
>>> >me if I am wrong about this -- anyone who is already engaged in flight
>>> >training does not need to undergo the background checks. Now if that's
>>> >true
>>> >(and it might not be), what does a student need to have done to have
>>> >started
>>> >their flight training prior to Oct. 20? For example, if a foreign
>>> >student
>>> >came in and did a 30-minute "discovery flight" on Oct. 15, and logged
>>> >the
>>> >time as a half-hour "lesson", were they already engaged in flight
>>> >training
>>> >when the rule took effect? What if the discovery flight took place in
>>> >August, or June, or April, or a year ago?
>>> >
>>> Flight training is defined as instruction received from a flight
>>> school in an aircraft or aircraft simulator. Any such activity that
>>> is noted in a logbook prior to October 20th would exempt the student
>>> from the new TSA procedures (as I interpret the regs). There is a
>>> time limit for lessons to begin after a new student that is subject to
>>> the regs is cleared. He must begin lessons within 180 days. I'm not
>>> sure if there are any time limitations on the situation that you
>>> proposed.
>>> Rich Russell
>>
>>So does that mean a foreign national who had taken a lesson prior to
>>Oct 20 can go to any FBO within 180 days and continue training? Does
>>the 180-day clock get reset every time he takes a lesson, or is it
>>counted from the day of the first lesson?
>
> You raise a couple of interesting issues and I can't answer them. If
> the student took a lesson prior to Oct 20, I believe that he is
> grandfathered and not subject to the new provisions at all. I don't
> think the 180 day issue applies to him. It would be interesting to
> see, however, if such a student could change to another FBO/CFI and
> have them accept him as being grandfathered. I suspect that the new
> CFI would be leery of that and may want to cover his butt by not
> honoring his previously logged work. We'll have to wait and see how a
> lot of different scenarios develop.
>
> As far as the 180 days goes (for a new student that is subject to the
> new rule) I know that he has to begin his lessons within 180 days of
> approval but I don't know if he's subject to any sactions if there is
> a lapse in his training of 180 days.
> Rich Russell

There are visa problems and transferring to a new school FBO can be a major
problem, in theory not possible if the school is not able to issue the I-20
form.