First time FBO meltdown

[Jack Allison]

For just over two years, I've had a great FBO. The operative word here
is "had". Suddenly, they've fallen off the face of the earth. :-(
It's sounding like they've closed shop. A real shame as they used to be
a great FBO and always treated their students and renters extremely well.

For the past month or so, I've been trying to get return phone calls or
e-mail on a variety of inquiries. Uncharacteristically, I received very
little in the way of replies. I could still schedule a plane though. A
month ago, I planned a short x-c flight but couldn't go because the
plane wouldn't start. Looking at the aircraft log, the plane hadn't
flown for two weeks. That was my first clue. It got worse this last
Sunday when I went to the airport and the plane wasn't on the ramp.
Fortunately, one of the A&Ps at the local shop was there and I got some
info. and and have since been in touch with a couple of the CFIs.

Just when I was thinking of starting my instrument lessons. There is
another FBO on the field and I may go with them. The only problem is
that they don't rent beyond their students. That and it would cost me
another $30/hr. over what I used to pay (plane and instructor). There
are other options at a different airport so I still have some things to
consider before making a decision. Wah...I want my own plane...or at
least my own share of a plane. :-)

--
Jack Allison
PP-ASEL, Wanna-be IA Student

"When once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the Earth
with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been, and there
you will always long to return"
- Leonardo Da Vinci

(Remove the obvious from address to reply via e-mail)

[Roger Long]

Move to beautiful Portland, Maine and we'll fix you right up:)

http://www.baldeagleflyingclub.org/

--

Roger Long



"Jack Allison" > wrote in message
...
> For just over two years, I've had a great FBO. The operative word here is
> "had". Suddenly, they've fallen off the face of the earth. :-( It's
> sounding like they've closed shop. A real shame as they used to be a
> great FBO and always treated their students and renters extremely well.
>
> For the past month or so, I've been trying to get return phone calls or
> e-mail on a variety of inquiries. Uncharacteristically, I received very
> little in the way of replies. I could still schedule a plane though. A
> month ago, I planned a short x-c flight but couldn't go because the plane
> wouldn't start. Looking at the aircraft log, the plane hadn't flown for
> two weeks. That was my first clue. It got worse this last Sunday when I
> went to the airport and the plane wasn't on the ramp. Fortunately, one of
> the A&Ps at the local shop was there and I got some info. and and have
> since been in touch with a couple of the CFIs.
>
> Just when I was thinking of starting my instrument lessons. There is
> another FBO on the field and I may go with them. The only problem is that
> they don't rent beyond their students. That and it would cost me another
> $30/hr. over what I used to pay (plane and instructor). There are other
> options at a different airport so I still have some things to consider
> before making a decision. Wah...I want my own plane...or at least my own
> share of a plane. :-)
>
> --
> Jack Allison
> PP-ASEL, Wanna-be IA Student
>
> "When once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the Earth
> with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been, and there
> you will always long to return"
> - Leonardo Da Vinci
>
> (Remove the obvious from address to reply via e-mail)

[C J Campbell]

"Jack Allison" > wrote in message
...
>
> Just when I was thinking of starting my instrument lessons. There is
> another FBO on the field and I may go with them. The only problem is
> that they don't rent beyond their students. That and it would cost me
> another $30/hr. over what I used to pay (plane and instructor).

Gee, maybe your old FBO couldn't afford to lose money on every flight and
try to make it up on volume.

[Jay Beckman]

"Jack Allison" > wrote in message
...
> For just over two years, I've had a great FBO. The operative word here is
> "had". Suddenly, they've fallen off the face of the earth. :-( It's
> sounding like they've closed shop. A real shame as they used to be a
> great FBO and always treated their students and renters extremely well.

Jack,

That is a shame!

I hope you can search out a suitable (ie affordable) alternative.

Jay

[Dave S]

Yea.. CJ.. the defunct FBO must have been using the "Airline" business
model and selling the product for less than it cost. I'd rather pay more
$$ an hour and know that the aircraft is better maintained, looks
cleaner, flies better and wont leave you hanging when you need it.

Dave

C J Campbell wrote:
> "Jack Allison" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>Just when I was thinking of starting my instrument lessons. There is
>>another FBO on the field and I may go with them. The only problem is
>>that they don't rent beyond their students. That and it would cost me
>>another $30/hr. over what I used to pay (plane and instructor).
>
>
> Gee, maybe your old FBO couldn't afford to lose money on every flight and
> try to make it up on volume.
>
>

[BTIZ]

> another FBO on the field and I may go with them. The only problem is that
> they don't rent beyond their students. That and it would cost me

So once they train a student and he has a rating.. if he is not taking
lessons towards additional ratings they won't rent to him?

mmmm.. I thought part of the "training" marketing strategy was to build a
client renter pilot base..

BT

[NW_PILOT]

"BTIZ" > wrote in message
news:n2Ffd.44290$bk1.44010@fed1read05...
> > another FBO on the field and I may go with them. The only problem is
that
> > they don't rent beyond their students. That and it would cost me
>
> So once they train a student and he has a rating.. if he is not taking
> lessons towards additional ratings they won't rent to him?
>
> mmmm.. I thought part of the "training" marketing strategy was to build a
> client renter pilot base..
>
> BT
>
>


That's the way I understand it to BTIZ. There are to many crooks out there
one of them is Columbia Flight Center in Troutdale OR it's been a year now
and still no solo photos very sad customer service they have. I don't see
them being around much longer and will not recommend anyone to them because
they put profits over customer service.

My flight instructor left them because of their business practices so have a
few others no one will take their airplane in for an oil change because they
like to order parts that you don't want or need or authorize to be ordered
then try and hold your airplane for ransom when you don't pay for the parts
you did not authorize to be ordered this happened to my flight instructor he
had to get the sheriff to get his airplane out of the hanger. The owner
threatened to burn his log books.

[Mike B]

The FBO where I started my training won't rent to anyone for any extended
duration - by which I mean they will only rent to you for four or five hours
max. Definitely no overnight trips...

I wound up joining a club on the airfield. The plane rents for cheaper (even
after I factor in the monthly dues) and is in much better condition.

On 2004-10-27, BTIZ > wrote:
>> another FBO on the field and I may go with them. The only problem is that
>> they don't rent beyond their students. That and it would cost me
>
> So once they train a student and he has a rating.. if he is not taking
> lessons towards additional ratings they won't rent to him?
>
> mmmm.. I thought part of the "training" marketing strategy was to build a
> client renter pilot base..

[Robert M. Gary]

Jack Allison > wrote in message >...
> For just over two years, I've had a great FBO. The operative word here
> is "had". Suddenly, they've fallen off the face of the earth. :-(
> It's sounding like they've closed shop. A real shame as they used to be
> a great FBO and always treated their students and renters extremely well.
>
> For the past month or so, I've been trying to get return phone calls or
> e-mail on a variety of inquiries. Uncharacteristically, I received very
> little in the way of replies. I could still schedule a plane though. A
> month ago, I planned a short x-c flight but couldn't go because the
> plane wouldn't start. Looking at the aircraft log, the plane hadn't
> flown for two weeks. That was my first clue. It got worse this last
> Sunday when I went to the airport and the plane wasn't on the ramp.
> Fortunately, one of the A&Ps at the local shop was there and I got some
> info. and and have since been in touch with a couple of the CFIs.
>
> Just when I was thinking of starting my instrument lessons. There is
> another FBO on the field and I may go with them. The only problem is
> that they don't rent beyond their students. That and it would cost me
> another $30/hr. over what I used to pay (plane and instructor). There
> are other options at a different airport so I still have some things to
> consider before making a decision. Wah...I want my own plane...or at
> least my own share of a plane. :-)
>
> --
> Jack Allison
> PP-ASEL, Wanna-be IA Student

Are you by chance flying out of Lincoln, CA?

[Robert M. Gary]

"BTIZ" > wrote in message news:<n2Ffd.44290$bk1.44010@fed1read05>...
> > another FBO on the field and I may go with them. The only problem is that
> > they don't rent beyond their students. That and it would cost me
>
> So once they train a student and he has a rating.. if he is not taking
> lessons towards additional ratings they won't rent to him?
>
> mmmm.. I thought part of the "training" marketing strategy was to build a
> client renter pilot base..

We have an operation like that in Lincoln, CA (Atkin Air). They are
mostly focused on charter operations but they tolerate student flying
as a side business. They will not rent after training though.

-Robert

[Jack Allison]

Robert M. Gary wrote:
> Are you by chance flying out of Lincoln, CA?

Well...not any more. Yes, I *was* flying out of LHM :-( That may
change, depending on what I can find in terms of flying clubs, other
FBOs, etc.

Are you a local Robert? I seem to remember you posting about flying
in/out of Minden, NV...then again, maybe I have you confused with
someone else.


--
Jack Allison
PP-ASEL, Wanna-be IA Student

"When once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the Earth
with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been, and there
you will always long to return"
- Leonardo Da Vinci

(Remove the obvious from address to reply via e-mail)

[Jack Allison]

BTIZ wrote:
> So once they train a student and he has a rating.. if he is not taking
> lessons towards additional ratings they won't rent to him?

Yep, after talking to one of the CFIs that's how I understand it works.

>
> mmmm.. I thought part of the "training" marketing strategy was to build a
> client renter pilot base..

As Robert mentioned (and has the FBO pegged), they're primarily a
charter outfit. They seem to do quite a bit of training but for some
reason they're not tapped into the rental market.


--
Jack Allison
PP-ASEL, Wanna-be IA Student

"When once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the Earth
with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been, and there
you will always long to return"
- Leonardo Da Vinci

(Remove the obvious from address to reply via e-mail)

[Jay Honeck]

It's ugly, ain't it, Jack?

We are STILL hurting in Iowa City because of what PSAir (the people who
bought Iowa City Flying Service, and then jumped ship in the middle of the
night) did to us a couple of years ago.

One day the FBO was there, the next day the building was empty. Right down
to the maps on the walls.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[CVBreard]

>I'd rather pay more
>$$ an hour and know that the aircraft is better maintained, looks
>cleaner, flies better and wont leave you hanging when you need it.

I usually rent the two most expensive (and newest) well-equipped 172s on the
field - one has maybe 2500 (2001+/- model year with a 'new' engine - $95/hr
plus tax) hrs TT, the 'new' one (2003 model year $105/hr plus tax) has about
500 hrsTT.

I WANT him to be profitable and keep on having such planes available. Keep me
out of those old wrecks.

[Jack Allison]

Jay Honeck wrote:
> It's ugly, ain't it, Jack?

Yep, sure is. Now, LHM has no rental business unless you're a student
at the only other FBO (now the only FBO) on the field. A decent sized
chunk of business completely gone.

>
> One day the FBO was there, the next day the building was empty. Right down
> to the maps on the walls.

This incident wasn't quite as dramatic. The office is still there, I
can still get into the lounge/computer/bathroom area. The strange thing
that happened to me is that all of a sudden, phone calls and e-mail were
not being returned.

Who knows though...this whole thing may move me toward a flying club or
perhaps co-ownership, either of which would be fine with me. The good
news is that I'm still in touch with my CFI from my PPL days and have a
small network of folks that I met over the last couple of years.
Something will work out. It's just a matter of time and money.

--
Jack Allison
PP-ASEL, IA Student/flying club member/co-owner wanna-be,

"When once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the Earth
with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been, and there
you will always long to return"
- Leonardo Da Vinci

(Remove the obvious from address to reply via e-mail)

[Jay Honeck]

> Who knows though...this whole thing may move me toward a flying club or
> perhaps co-ownership, either of which would be fine with me.

You, perhaps more than any renter pilot I've ever known, are ready for
ownership. Anyone who is jumping the mountains in Spam cans every year to
attend Oshkosh has no business flying rental birds.

I don't care HOW much you trust the FBO maintaining the planes, rental
planes are necessarily seen by management as a disposable commodity with a
limited life span, no different than their vending machines or parts
washers. This stands in stark contrast to an owner's attitude toward their
steeds, and is why I won't hesitate to fly over the Rocky Mountains in
Atlas, but wouldn't dream of doing so in a rental bird.

Get thee a partner, and buy thee an airplane, Jack! Your FBO shutting down
is "the sign" you've been waiting for!
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Jack Allison]

Jay Honeck wrote:

> You, perhaps more than any renter pilot I've ever known, are ready for
> ownership. Anyone who is jumping the mountains in Spam cans every year to
> attend Oshkosh has no business flying rental birds.
Well, they were very nice, fairly new rental spam cans...but, yes, I'd
agree that a typical ratted out 30+ year old C-172 isn't something I'd
want to use jumping over the Sierras.

> Get thee a partner, and buy thee an airplane, Jack! Your FBO shutting down
> is "the sign" you've been waiting for!
Yep, it might be. I'm going to poke around a bit to see what may be
available in terms of flying clubs. In addition, there are other rental
pilots from my former FBO that may be interested in co-owning.
So...we'll see. This very well could be a push toward ownership. Now,
can you create a nice uptick in the stock market for me? Sure would
make co-ownership right now easier. :-)

--
Jack Allison
PP-ASEL, IA Student/flying club member/co-owner wanna-be,

"When once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the Earth
with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been, and there
you will always long to return"
- Leonardo Da Vinci

(Remove the obvious from address to reply via e-mail)

[Jose]

> Now, can you create a nice uptick in the stock market for me?

I used to make money in the stock market. Now I make money in the basement. :)

Jose
--
for Email, make the obvious change in the address

[Chris W]

Dave S wrote:

> I'd rather pay more $$ an hour and know that the aircraft is better
> maintained, looks cleaner, flies better and wont leave you hanging
> when you need it.

Or falling!? :(

--
Chris W

Not getting the gifts you want? The Wish Zone can help.
http://thewishzone.com

"They that can give up essential liberty
to obtain a little temporary safety
deserve neither liberty nor safety."
-- Benjamin Franklin, 1759 Historical Review of Pennsylvania

[Casey Wilson]

>> Get thee a partner, and buy thee an airplane, Jack! Your FBO shutting
>> down is "the sign" you've been waiting for!
> Yep, it might be. I'm going to poke around a bit to see what may be
> available in terms of flying clubs. In addition, there are other rental
> pilots from my former FBO that may be interested in co-owning. So...we'll
> see. This very well could be a push toward ownership. Now, can you
> create a nice uptick in the stock market for me? Sure would make
> co-ownership right now easier. :-)
>

Hmmmmmm, Jack, the answer might be right in front of your nose. I'll bet
you aren't the only pilot left in a lurch there.

Why not run the N# of your favorite airplane at the now defunct FBO and
determine the ownership. Do a little work and contact the owner. He or she
is probably bemoaning the loss of rental time if it was a leaseback. Or, it
may even belong to the FBO. It may be for sale in either case.

Once you get some details, and since you have access to the office area,
make up a couple of posters detailing a scheme to buy that airplane above
and ask interested pilots to send you an email. If you don't like the idea
of displaying your email address publicly, sign up for one at Hotmail or
Yahoo that you can throw away in the future.

[Robert M. Gary]

Jack Allison > wrote in message >...
> Robert M. Gary wrote:
> > Are you by chance flying out of Lincoln, CA?
>
> Well...not any more. Yes, I *was* flying out of LHM :-( That may
> change, depending on what I can find in terms of flying clubs, other
> FBOs, etc.
>
> Are you a local Robert? I seem to remember you posting about flying
> in/out of Minden, NV...then again, maybe I have you confused with
> someone else.

I have a Mooney in Cameron Park but I teach out of Rancho Murieta
(with Flying Vikings) on the weekends. I occationally teach out of
Cameron Park too. My real job is in Roseville so some of the guys from
work were training at Lincoln before all this happened. I've also
heard good things about the FBO in Auburn if the drive works for you.

-Robert

[Jack Allison]

Casey Wilson wrote:
> Hmmmmmm, Jack, the answer might be right in front of your nose. I'll bet
> you aren't the only pilot left in a lurch there.
Yep, there are other folks in my shoes and I'll be working on contacting
a few of them to see what they're doing. There are a few potential
partners in the lot...we'll see what shakes loose.
>
> Why not run the N# of your favorite airplane at the now defunct FBO and
> determine the ownership. Do a little work and contact the owner. He or she
> is probably bemoaning the loss of rental time if it was a leaseback. Or, it
> may even belong to the FBO. It may be for sale in either case.
I've been thinking along these lines and plan to keep my ear to the
ground in terms of the two aircraft that the FBO owns (two C-172s).
There were a couple other C-172s and a C-182RG on leaseback so there may
be some possibilities there as well.

--
Jack Allison
PP-ASEL, IA Student/flying club member/co-owner wanna-be,

"When once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the Earth
with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been, and there
you will always long to return"
- Leonardo Da Vinci

(Remove the obvious from address to reply via e-mail)

[Jack Allison]

The DPE for my PPL check ride is based at Cameron Park. Had to fly
there to do the oral then we launched on the x-c portion and diverted
to...guess where? Rancho Murieta.

Auburn would be a pain for me and it's probably a 50/50 split between
driving to LHM or SAC. MHR is closest but there isn't a flight school
there. The good news is that I know a CFI at LHM and SAC. Time to
compare costs/aircraft/FBOs then probably take the plunge and start
instrument lessons at one of them.

So, any of your folks from work affected by the same (not Atkin) FBO?
If so and anyone is looking for an instrument safety pilot, feel free to
pass along my e-mail from the newsgroup. I wonder if I know any of
these folks.

Glad to "meet" a local on the newsgroup.

--
Jack Allison
PP-ASEL, IA Student/flying club member/co-owner wanna-be,

"When once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the Earth
with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been, and there
you will always long to return"
- Leonardo Da Vinci

(Remove the obvious from address to reply via e-mail)

[Robert M. Gary]

Jack Allison > wrote in message >...
> The DPE for my PPL check ride is based at Cameron Park. Had to fly
> there to do the oral then we launched on the x-c portion and diverted
> to...guess where? Rancho Murieta.


Sounds like Rick Savage. He's a good guy. He keeps his Tramahawk
parked next to my Mooney. He spends most of his time flying a Citation
all over the world for an oil company. He's sent me pictures from
Siberia. Rick is my mentor.

>
> Auburn would be a pain for me and it's probably a 50/50 split between
> driving to LHM or SAC. MHR is closest but there isn't a flight school
> there. The good news is that I know a CFI at LHM and SAC. Time to
> compare costs/aircraft/FBOs then probably take the plunge and start
> instrument lessons at one of them.

I used to teach out of Mather with a plane from Flying Vikings.
However, the county found out we were operating a commercial business
from the airport without the minimum number of square feet of office
space (because our office was actually 5 miles south at the Rancho
airport). They kicked us out. There was a training operation at Mather
about a year ago but I think they shut down.
There are several good places at SAC (I recommend CFI (Carter Flygare
Inc) http://www.cfi.com ). However, everything at SAC is 10-20% more
expensive than anywhere else.


> So, any of your folks from work affected by the same (not Atkin) FBO?
> If so and anyone is looking for an instrument safety pilot, feel free to
> pass along my e-mail from the newsgroup. I wonder if I know any of
> these folks.

A friend of mine, Alain is in this situation. He's pre-solo though.
He's actually grounded by the TSA now though since he's a French
citizen here on a work visa.

-Robert, CFI

[Jack Allison]

Robert M. Gary wrote:
> Sounds like Rick Savage.
Bingo! Yep, he's a great DPE. I'd take a check ride from him any day.

> There are several good places at SAC (I recommend CFI (Carter Flygare
> Inc) http://www.cfi.com ). However, everything at SAC is 10-20% more
> expensive than anywhere else.
Thanks for the tip. At this point, I'd probably go with Atkin since LHM
is slightly closer than SAC. Easier in terms of traffic too. Prices
seem pretty much even between the two.

--
Jack Allison
PP-ASEL, IA Student/flying club member/co-owner wanna-be,

"When once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the Earth
with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been, and there
you will always long to return"
- Leonardo Da Vinci

(Remove the obvious from address to reply via e-mail)

[Jay Beckman]

"Martin Hotze" > wrote in message
...
> "BTIZ" > wrote:
>
>> > another FBO on the field and I may go with them. The only problem is
>> > that
>> > they don't rent beyond their students. That and it would cost me
>>
>> So once they train a student and he has a rating.. if he is not taking
>> lessons towards additional ratings they won't rent to him?
>
>
> this sounds like Tailwind Flight Centre @ CHD (formerly Sunbird Flight
> Services)
>
>

Martin

You Are Wrong!

That must have been Sunbird's policy, because it is NOT the policy of the
current owners DBA Tailwind.

I trained there and I continue to rent there in the same fashion in which I
worked my training (ie, scheduling planes via the web, etc...)

Jay Beckman
Chandler, AZ
PP-ASEL

[Jay Beckman]

"Martin Hotze" > wrote in message
...
> "Jay Beckman" > wrote:
>
>> >> > another FBO on the field and I may go with them. The only problem
>> >> > is
>> >> > that
>> >> > they don't rent beyond their students. That and it would cost me
>> >>
>> >> So once they train a student and he has a rating.. if he is not taking
>> >> lessons towards additional ratings they won't rent to him?
>> >
>> >
>> > this sounds like Tailwind Flight Centre @ CHD (formerly Sunbird Flight
>> > Services)
>> >
>> >
>>
>> Martin
>>
>> You Are Wrong!
>
>
> hopefully.
>
>> That must have been Sunbird's policy, because it is NOT the policy of the
>> current owners DBA Tailwind.
>
>
> IBTD
>
>> I trained there and I continue to rent there in the same fashion in which
>> I
>> worked my training (ie, scheduling planes via the web, etc...)
>
>
> they do rent to people who had not trained at their place?

As far as I know, yes.

Jay

and a "Kuck Ferry" right back atcha! ;O)