buy plane or get instrument rating?

[Matt]

Hi everyone. I have about 100 hours in 150's and 172's. I am thinking
about getting an instrument rating and buying my own plane within the next
few years. Should I go for the instrument rating first? I was thinking
this might help me build some more time, and the instrument rating would be
looked upon favorably by insurance companies when the time comes to buy.
Or, should I just buy the plane and fly it to get the instrument rating? I
am considering a 172.

Thanks for all advice!

Matt

[tony roberts]

Buy the plane!
you won't regret it.

--

Tony Roberts
PP-ASEL
VFR OTT
Night
Cessna 172H C-GICE



In article >,
"Matt" > wrote:

> Hi everyone. I have about 100 hours in 150's and 172's. I am thinking
> about getting an instrument rating and buying my own plane within the next
> few years. Should I go for the instrument rating first? I was thinking
> this might help me build some more time, and the instrument rating would be
> looked upon favorably by insurance companies when the time comes to buy.
> Or, should I just buy the plane and fly it to get the instrument rating? I
> am considering a 172.
>
> Thanks for all advice!
>
> Matt

[Peter Duniho]

"Matt" > wrote in message
om...
> Hi everyone. I have about 100 hours in 150's and 172's. I am thinking
> about getting an instrument rating and buying my own plane within the next
> few years. Should I go for the instrument rating first? [...]
> Or, should I just buy the plane and fly it to get the instrument rating?

You can get an instrument rating in a matter of months, not "a few years",
and it will cost a fraction what an airplane would. So, why not get the
instrument rating AND buy a plane?

If you insist on making it an either/or proposition, that's a question that
really, only you can answer. If you want to own an airplane, buy an
airplane. If you are finding that weather issues are hindering your flying,
get an instrument rating. If both are true, then you have to decide which
is the higher priority, or has the most economic benefit.

As far as insurance costs go, the savings on a 172 isn't going to be
anywhere near enough to actually pay for the instrument training itself. So
the training doesn't make sense as a cost-cutting measure; it only makes
sense for the usual reasons, such as enhancement of certain piloting skills
and increased utility for the pilot certificate.

Buying an airplane and using it for the instrument training's not a bad way
to go. But you'll still need to fly a lot of hours in order to come out
ahead of renting, cost-wise. On the flip side, assuming you do both in the
near term, you'll have the distraction of airplane ownership to deal with
while you ought to be focusing on learning what you need to know for the
instrument rating.

As a new airplane owner, you'll be distracted by things like chasing down
all the little maintenance things that you couldn't predict, scheduling
annual inspections and oil changes, and of course finding a suitable home
for your plane to park. None of these things is terribly complicated on its
own, but they will all be new, and they do tend to pile up.

Both an airplane and an instrument rating are especially useful and sensible
when you are doing a lot of flying, and not terribly sensible if you are
not. So even there, it's hard to say one is better than the other. Though,
that said, the instrument rating won't be a complete waste of money if it
turns out you aren't flying very much. An airplane will just continue to
eat holes in your wallet, even when you're not flying it. So I guess from a
risk-benefit point of view, the instrument rating comes out ahead.

In the end, both are highly rewarding ways to expand your horizons as a
pilot. But I still don't see why you have to pick just one or the other.

Pete

[T.Roger]

There's a tax break that's about to expire December 31st. You can write-off
the entire cost of a new plane brought into service by years-end, used for
business. That means that if you have the income to protect, buying a new
C172 will chop off $250K from your gross income. There are planes that can
be had for half that, brand new. Alarus comes to mind. Upshot: you can have
a plane AND an instrument rating, courtesy of Uncle Sam.






"Matt" > wrote in message
om...
> Hi everyone. I have about 100 hours in 150's and 172's. I am thinking
> about getting an instrument rating and buying my own plane within the next
> few years. Should I go for the instrument rating first? I was thinking
> this might help me build some more time, and the instrument rating would
> be
> looked upon favorably by insurance companies when the time comes to buy.
> Or, should I just buy the plane and fly it to get the instrument rating?
> I
> am considering a 172.
>
> Thanks for all advice!
>
> Matt
>
>

[Cub Driver]

If all that was keeping me back from owning a plane was the instrument
rating, I would defer the instrument rating. However, I have a
classmate who begs me by email every three months to become an IFR
pilot. (He is retired military, not a GA pilot.) Since the Cub isn't
instrument rated, either, I've never seen the point.

all the best -- Dan Ford
email: (put Cubdriver in subject line)

Warbird's Forum www.warbirdforum.com
Piper Cub Forum www.pipercubforum.com
the blog www.danford.net

[AJW]

Airplane vs IFR rating? It all depends. They are two seperate decisons. If
you're sure you're going to fly 150 + hours a year, owning your own airplane
would start to become economic. Less than 100, it almost for sure wouldn't be.

If you're going to have to fly in fairly poor conditions -- say 5 miles in haze
often, or worse -- the rating would be a real comfort. It'd be less expensive
to take the rating in your own airplane, and better for you, since the platform
you're training is is the same one you'll use in real life.

Here's a real life caution: Rated or not, unless you have reason to fly often,
you'll not be proficient. What I had done is to arrange with fellow pilots
(Mooney jocks, we have to stick together) to go as safety pilots for each other
every six months. It changed into a game of trying to get the guy under the
hood really confused before giving him the airplane. You know the drill, 30
degree pitch up, steep bank, a few knots above the stall "It's your airplane".
We became pretty good pilots. IFRers will enjoy this: The safety pilot would
give clearance for a hold, and an estimated time of release. If the pilot under
the hood could make the release time +/- 20 seconds, he won an after flight
beer.

We also, on our home base, flew to touchdown under the hood. That's not as hard
as you might think on a 7000 foot runway in a Mooney because it really tells
you when you're in ground effect. It's a real confidence builder, too. Give it
a try sometimes.

[Marco Leon]

Do what I did--justify buying an airplane by the fact that you are going to
get your instrument rating. This will put you in the proper mindset for
aircraft ownership ;)

Marco


"Matt" > wrote in message
om...
> Hi everyone. I have about 100 hours in 150's and 172's. I am thinking
> about getting an instrument rating and buying my own plane within the next
> few years. Should I go for the instrument rating first? I was thinking
> this might help me build some more time, and the instrument rating would
be
> looked upon favorably by insurance companies when the time comes to buy.
> Or, should I just buy the plane and fly it to get the instrument rating?
I
> am considering a 172.
>
> Thanks for all advice!
>
> Matt
>
>

[Jose]

If you cancel flights you'd like to take because of benign (non-ice, not-thunderstorm) IFR, then you should get the rating.

If you want to fly a lot, or have the airplane available to you in ways that a rental is not, then consider buying a plane, or part of one. Other alternatives are a partnership and a flying club. Look around for clubs in yuor area - you get many of
the same benefits of ownership at a fraction of the cost.

Jose
--
for Email, make the obvious change in the address

[C Kingsbury]

I bought my share in a 172 about halfway into my instrument training.
Although I had access to good rental planes with good equipment, it was nice
to fly the same plane, week after week, with the same radios in the same
places, all the same quirks, etc. How many hours did it save me? Probably
not many but given the choice I'll always stick to one plane.

Depending on where you are and the quality of rentals available to you, you
may need to buy a plane to actually use the instrument rating.

-cwk.

[Malcolm Teas]

"T.Roger" > wrote in message >...
> There's a tax break that's about to expire December 31st. You can write-off
> the entire cost of a new plane brought into service by years-end, used for
> business. That means that if you have the income to protect, buying a new
> C172 will chop off $250K from your gross income. There are planes that can
> be had for half that, brand new. Alarus comes to mind. Upshot: you can have
> a plane AND an instrument rating, courtesy of Uncle Sam.

I've heard that the tax break's recently been extended for another
year and signed into law. Note, I'm saying that this is hearsay.
Check it out. But I didn't want you to make a hasty decision based on
a 31 Dec 2004 expiration of this.

Also, as T Roger says, the plane needs to be "used for business".
This can be done through a lease-back arrangement. But if you do
that, you're contending for time in your plane with all the other
renters again. Not exactly what many of us want to buy a plane for.

You might want to think about lease-back and the depreciation tax
break as a side business. Not as a way for you to get a plane and
have it paid for.

-Malcolm Teas

[G.R. Patterson III]

Matt wrote:
>
> Or, should I just buy the plane and fly it to get the instrument rating? I
> am considering a 172.

Buy the plane and get the rating in it.

George Patterson
If a man gets into a fight 3,000 miles away from home, he *had* to have
been looking for it.

[Journeyman]

In article >, Matt wrote:
> about getting an instrument rating and buying my own plane within the next
> few years. Should I go for the instrument rating first? I was thinking

Like others have said, buy the plane now.

Ignore the intangible benefits of owning for a second. Figure the
economics of ownership vs. renting. Typically, at 100 hours per year
or less, it pays to rent; at 200/yr, it pays to own.

The reason is the high fixed cost of ownership. Before your first
flight hour, you have to pay for insurance, parking spot, and annual
inspection. Each additional hour, you're paying the marginal cost:
fuel, oil (and if you anywhere, landing fee).

As you persue your instrument rating, you're going to be doing a lot
of flying in a relatively short period of time. That's where owning
makes financial sense.

Then there are the intangible benefits: schedule it any time you want,
know who's flown it last, no daily minima.

If you want practical benefit from the plane, like actually being
able to go places, eventually, you're going to have to own your own
(or form a partnership). With a better FBO, you can push it off
longer.

Good luck,


Morris

[The Weiss Family]

"Matt" > wrote in message
om...
> Hi everyone. I have about 100 hours in 150's and 172's. I am thinking
> about getting an instrument rating and buying my own plane within the next
> few years. Should I go for the instrument rating first? I was thinking
> this might help me build some more time, and the instrument rating would
> be
> looked upon favorably by insurance companies when the time comes to buy.
> Or, should I just buy the plane and fly it to get the instrument rating?
> I
> am considering a 172.
>
> Thanks for all advice!
>
> Matt
>
>

Like everyone else has said, I bought now, and am going to get my instrument
rating in MY plane.

Adam
N7966L
Beech Super III

[NW_PILOT]

"Matt" > wrote in message
om...
> Hi everyone. I have about 100 hours in 150's and 172's. I am thinking
> about getting an instrument rating and buying my own plane within the next
> few years. Should I go for the instrument rating first? I was thinking
> this might help me build some more time, and the instrument rating would
be
> looked upon favorably by insurance companies when the time comes to buy.
> Or, should I just buy the plane and fly it to get the instrument rating?
I
> am considering a 172.
>
> Thanks for all advice!
>
> Matt
>
>

Buy an IFR 150 Get your rating and sell if for more than you paid for it
"or" keep it for a low cost time builder.

I don't think one could have to many diffrent airplanes.

[Nathan Young]

On Mon, 01 Nov 2004 01:32:55 GMT, "Matt" > wrote:

>Hi everyone. I have about 100 hours in 150's and 172's. I am thinking
>about getting an instrument rating and buying my own plane within the next
>few years. Should I go for the instrument rating first? I was thinking
>this might help me build some more time, and the instrument rating would be
>looked upon favorably by insurance companies when the time comes to buy.
>Or, should I just buy the plane and fly it to get the instrument rating? I
>am considering a 172.

I flew my Cherokee 180 for about 1.5 years before getting the
instrument rating. I trained for the IFR in my plane and found it was
a huge advantage to be comfortable/familiar with the plane.

Make sure you know what kind of IFR equipment you will want before you
buy your plane. Avionics are expensive to purchase and install, and
only add about 50% to the resale value of the plane.

In other words, you are much better to find a plane equipped how you
want it for IFR flight, than to buy a plane with a junker panel, and
set about upgrading it yourself. Of course there are exceptions to
this, but in general it is a good rule.

One thing I really wish my plane had was an altitude hold autopilot.
It will be close to $10k to get one installed, which is why I haven't
done it yet.

-Nathan

[Robert M. Gary]

Buy the plane first. First the instrument rating will save you 10%-20$
on your insurance. Second the rating will make you more intimate with
your new plane. Third, you will probably find out a lot of little
issues after you buy your plane. The training env is the perfect time
to find problems.

-Robert


"Matt" > wrote in message >...
> Hi everyone. I have about 100 hours in 150's and 172's. I am thinking
> about getting an instrument rating and buying my own plane within the next
> few years. Should I go for the instrument rating first? I was thinking
> this might help me build some more time, and the instrument rating would be
> looked upon favorably by insurance companies when the time comes to buy.
> Or, should I just buy the plane and fly it to get the instrument rating? I
> am considering a 172.
>
> Thanks for all advice!
>
> Matt

[NW_PILOT]

"Robert M. Gary" > wrote in message
om...
> Buy the plane first. First the instrument rating will save you 10%-20$
> on your insurance. Second the rating will make you more intimate with
> your new plane. Third, you will probably find out a lot of little
> issues after you buy your plane. The training env is the perfect time
> to find problems.
>
> -Robert

Agree Agree, You also know how many times it has been bounced off the runway
since last time you have flown it. You know the condition of the avionics as
you are responsible for every thing and not a profiteering glutton that's
going to take the most inexpensive route out of it to boost up profits.

[Casey Wilson]

"NW_PILOT" > wrote in message
...
> and not a profiteering glutton that's
> going to take the most inexpensive route out of it to boost up profits.
>
I beg your pardon. Who might that be...the profiteering glutton...?
Are you stereotyping all renters, leaseback owners, and/or FBOs with that
ridiculous, rude characterization?

[Mark]

"Matt" > wrote in message >...
> Hi everyone. I have about 100 hours in 150's and 172's. I am thinking
> about getting an instrument rating and buying my own plane within the next
> few years. Should I go for the instrument rating first? I was thinking
> this might help me build some more time, and the instrument rating would be
> looked upon favorably by insurance companies when the time comes to buy.
> Or, should I just buy the plane and fly it to get the instrument rating? I
> am considering a 172.
>
> Thanks for all advice!
>
> Matt

Might check with Cessna. I think they have a program where you buy a
new airplane and they will pay for your rating.

Just an option......

[Mark Astley]

Hi Matt,

I was in your exact situation about two years ago. I bought the
plane, then
got my rating in it. In a lot of ways, these are two separate issues.
Pursuing a rating is a good way to improve your piloting abilities
and fly on a regular basis (never mind whether you'll actually use the
rating). Likewise, owning a plane has its own rewards. But...would I
do it again? Tough call, here's why...

If you're wealthy beyond your dreams, skip to the next paragraph. A
combination of cash on hand and likely insurance costs meant that when
I was in your shoes I couldn't afford much more than a trainer, a
PA28-140 in my case. However, now I'm starting to get step-up fever.
Unless you're content to cruise around at 110 KTAS at a few thousand
feet all day, you may find yourself in a similar position. IN
GENERAL, ownership is rarely break even and most owners prefer to
remain in blissful ignorance. In my case, with the hours I fly, I'd
have been better off renting and accumulating savings these last two
years as I'd have had enough cash on hand to buy something more
capable now. That is, I'd probably buy again, warts and all, but I'd
probably wait another year or two so I could get something that would
likely keep me satisfied long term.

If you DO buy, it's fairly important to get decent avionics if you're
going to pursue an IFR rating, otherwise you'll have to switch planes
for some of the training and the checkride. Check the IFR test
standards for what you'll need (generally,a way to shoot an ILS and
two non-precision approaches). Likewise, if you think you'll want to
add commercial privileges, a retract is nice to have but easier to
work around.

Unless you're wealthy, particular about radios or have long-term
plans, DON'T buy a plane with so-so avionics and add radios to get it
up to snuff. I did that, it hurt. Yes you'll recover some of that on
resale, but usually only $0.30 on the dollar on a good day.

While you're thinking about it, go ahead and start IFR training, it'll
be a few lessons before you really need particular radios, etc.

Best of luck...

mark

"Matt" > wrote in message >...
> Hi everyone. I have about 100 hours in 150's and 172's. I am thinking
> about getting an instrument rating and buying my own plane within the next
> few years. Should I go for the instrument rating first? I was thinking
> this might help me build some more time, and the instrument rating would be
> looked upon favorably by insurance companies when the time comes to buy.
> Or, should I just buy the plane and fly it to get the instrument rating? I
> am considering a 172.
>
> Thanks for all advice!
>
> Matt