Switching instructors?

[Dave Jacobowitz]

Here's a question for the group: I've got a flight instructor that I
work well with. I finished my private with him and did my entire
instrument rating with him. I want to start on my commercial (SE, and
then CFI, CFII, and later ME) and was wondering if there is any good
reason to look for someone new to train with.

To give some background, when working on my private I had some bad
luck. The first guy I worked with was a timebuilder. I don't even want
to say how many hours I had before I soloed, suffice it so say that I
was probably taken advantage of. Later, he got an job with a commuter
in Florida, and was gone. My second instructor, who soloed me probably
on my second or third lesson (hmm...) was a good guy, but he had to
relocate when his job at UAL went away. (he wasn't a pilot, but an
A&P).

Anyway, my current instructor is good. He's definitely of the
old-school mold: great stick, kind of irritable, smart, ATP gazillion
hours, nitpicky, occasionally absent-minded, has some strange ideas
about how the world does/ought to work :) He's one of those guys who
is happy to fly GPS approaches, but can't quite mask his derision for
pilots who "need to see the little airplane on the moving map." Of
course, we all know he has a point, but he's not the most politic
person in the world.

So, I get along with this guy, and I've done two ratings with him, so
the question is if there really is anything to be gained by finding
somebody else to fly with someone new, just for a different
perspective? Different style of piloting? I suspect that the answer is
yes, but is it worth it? What are the odds that the next guy I fly
with is going to be a flake?

It probably helps to share my long-term goals. I do *not* want to be
an airline pilot. I have another career, which, though not the stuff
of dreams, pays nicely. What I do want to do is get my CFI and have a
student or two at a time, flying weekends, etc, maybe have a part-time
income for when I'm "retired." Sometimes I think that maybe I could do
some corporate flying one day if I one the lottery first. (or my
company went IPO, which has seems to have similar odds)

Also, I just like to pursue ratings, because I enjoy the challenge and
the learning.

Just soliciting opinions... What do you guys think?


thanks!

jacobowitz73 --at-- yahoo --dot-- com

[Steven Barnes]

I think trying different instructors is a good idea. During my primary I had
a couple different instructors before I settled on someone who did a great
job & finished the private. He started me on the instrument, but due to time
constraints I ended up finishing the IR with another instructor. I could see
some similarities in styles & approaches (pun intended), but quite a few
differences, too. Made for learning different ways of looking at things.

Bottom line: Try someone new. If it isn't working out, dump 'em & go back to
your current instructor. This current instructor shouldn't have a problem
with you wanting to see different viewpoints on things.


"Dave Jacobowitz" > wrote in message
om...
> Here's a question for the group: I've got a flight instructor that I
> work well with. I finished my private with him and did my entire
> instrument rating with him. I want to start on my commercial (SE, and
> then CFI, CFII, and later ME) and was wondering if there is any good
> reason to look for someone new to train with.
>
> To give some background, when working on my private I had some bad
> luck. The first guy I worked with was a timebuilder. I don't even want
> to say how many hours I had before I soloed, suffice it so say that I
> was probably taken advantage of. Later, he got an job with a commuter
> in Florida, and was gone. My second instructor, who soloed me probably
> on my second or third lesson (hmm...) was a good guy, but he had to
> relocate when his job at UAL went away. (he wasn't a pilot, but an
> A&P).
>
> Anyway, my current instructor is good. He's definitely of the
> old-school mold: great stick, kind of irritable, smart, ATP gazillion
> hours, nitpicky, occasionally absent-minded, has some strange ideas
> about how the world does/ought to work :) He's one of those guys who
> is happy to fly GPS approaches, but can't quite mask his derision for
> pilots who "need to see the little airplane on the moving map." Of
> course, we all know he has a point, but he's not the most politic
> person in the world.
>
> So, I get along with this guy, and I've done two ratings with him, so
> the question is if there really is anything to be gained by finding
> somebody else to fly with someone new, just for a different
> perspective? Different style of piloting? I suspect that the answer is
> yes, but is it worth it? What are the odds that the next guy I fly
> with is going to be a flake?
>
> It probably helps to share my long-term goals. I do *not* want to be
> an airline pilot. I have another career, which, though not the stuff
> of dreams, pays nicely. What I do want to do is get my CFI and have a
> student or two at a time, flying weekends, etc, maybe have a part-time
> income for when I'm "retired." Sometimes I think that maybe I could do
> some corporate flying one day if I one the lottery first. (or my
> company went IPO, which has seems to have similar odds)
>
> Also, I just like to pursue ratings, because I enjoy the challenge and
> the learning.
>
> Just soliciting opinions... What do you guys think?
>
>
> thanks!
>
> jacobowitz73 --at-- yahoo --dot-- com

[Dudley Henriques]

"Dave Jacobowitz" > wrote in message
om...
> Here's a question for the group: I've got a flight instructor that I
> work well with. I finished my private with him and did my entire
> instrument rating with him. I want to start on my commercial (SE, and
> then CFI, CFII, and later ME) and was wondering if there is any good
> reason to look for someone new to train with.
>
> To give some background, when working on my private I had some bad
> luck. The first guy I worked with was a timebuilder. I don't even want
> to say how many hours I had before I soloed, suffice it so say that I
> was probably taken advantage of. Later, he got an job with a commuter
> in Florida, and was gone. My second instructor, who soloed me probably
> on my second or third lesson (hmm...) was a good guy, but he had to
> relocate when his job at UAL went away. (he wasn't a pilot, but an
> A&P).
>
> Anyway, my current instructor is good. He's definitely of the
> old-school mold: great stick, kind of irritable, smart, ATP gazillion
> hours, nitpicky, occasionally absent-minded, has some strange ideas
> about how the world does/ought to work :) He's one of those guys who
> is happy to fly GPS approaches, but can't quite mask his derision for
> pilots who "need to see the little airplane on the moving map." Of
> course, we all know he has a point, but he's not the most politic
> person in the world.
>
> So, I get along with this guy, and I've done two ratings with him, so
> the question is if there really is anything to be gained by finding
> somebody else to fly with someone new, just for a different
> perspective? Different style of piloting? I suspect that the answer is
> yes, but is it worth it? What are the odds that the next guy I fly
> with is going to be a flake?
>
> It probably helps to share my long-term goals. I do *not* want to be
> an airline pilot. I have another career, which, though not the stuff
> of dreams, pays nicely. What I do want to do is get my CFI and have a
> student or two at a time, flying weekends, etc, maybe have a part-time
> income for when I'm "retired." Sometimes I think that maybe I could do
> some corporate flying one day if I one the lottery first. (or my
> company went IPO, which has seems to have similar odds)
>
> Also, I just like to pursue ratings, because I enjoy the challenge and
> the learning.
>
> Just soliciting opinions... What do you guys think?
>
>
> thanks!
>
> jacobowitz73 --at-- yahoo --dot-- com

It never hurts to have a diversified instructor base, but the real truth
of it is that once you have your Private and Instrument, going for the
advanced ratings should pose you no particular problems if you keep the
instructor you get along with.
The Commercial is nothing more than a glorified Private. You learn some
new maneuvers and learn to fly them to closer tolerances. It's not an
instructional cornucopia of knowledge really :-)
To be quite frank with you, I'd stay where you are comfortable at your
stage. You should pretty well be past the point where the instructor is
key in your learning process. At your stage, the instructor shows you a
few new things and you do it...it's that simple. I have always likened
the point where you are in your training to that of a fairly good figure
skater who already can skate like a ballerina. The skater's coach is
sort of like your instructor will be going for the Commercial. He'll
demonstrate....and you'll do it. You will already know basically what to
do from your present level of experience. The CFI will just
coach....observe....and fine tune you....just like the case of the
skater. Hell, most of those fat old skating coaches couldn't even get
off the ice with one of those quad Lutz's they get paid to teach people
how to perform!!! Commercial's about the same for the CFI.
I would stay with the guy you like, do what you have to do to get the
Commercial, then after you get it.....begin the self teaching process
that is an absolute MUST to be a GOOD Commercial Pilot!! :-))
Dudley Henriques
International Fighter Pilots Fellowship
for email; take out the trash

[NW_PILOT]

"Dave Jacobowitz" > wrote in message
om...
> Here's a question for the group: I've got a flight instructor that I
> work well with. I finished my private with him and did my entire
> instrument rating with him. I want to start on my commercial (SE, and
> then CFI, CFII, and later ME) and was wondering if there is any good
> reason to look for someone new to train with.
>
> To give some background, when working on my private I had some bad
> luck. The first guy I worked with was a timebuilder. I don't even want
> to say how many hours I had before I soloed, suffice it so say that I
> was probably taken advantage of. Later, he got an job with a commuter
> in Florida, and was gone. My second instructor, who soloed me probably
> on my second or third lesson (hmm...) was a good guy, but he had to
> relocate when his job at UAL went away. (he wasn't a pilot, but an
> A&P).
>
> Anyway, my current instructor is good. He's definitely of the
> old-school mold: great stick, kind of irritable, smart, ATP gazillion
> hours, nitpicky, occasionally absent-minded, has some strange ideas
> about how the world does/ought to work :) He's one of those guys who
> is happy to fly GPS approaches, but can't quite mask his derision for
> pilots who "need to see the little airplane on the moving map." Of
> course, we all know he has a point, but he's not the most politic
> person in the world.
>
> So, I get along with this guy, and I've done two ratings with him, so
> the question is if there really is anything to be gained by finding
> somebody else to fly with someone new, just for a different
> perspective? Different style of piloting? I suspect that the answer is
> yes, but is it worth it? What are the odds that the next guy I fly
> with is going to be a flake?
>
> It probably helps to share my long-term goals. I do *not* want to be
> an airline pilot. I have another career, which, though not the stuff
> of dreams, pays nicely. What I do want to do is get my CFI and have a
> student or two at a time, flying weekends, etc, maybe have a part-time
> income for when I'm "retired." Sometimes I think that maybe I could do
> some corporate flying one day if I one the lottery first. (or my
> company went IPO, which has seems to have similar odds)
>
> Also, I just like to pursue ratings, because I enjoy the challenge and
> the learning.
>
> Just soliciting opinions... What do you guys think?
>
>
> thanks!
>
> jacobowitz73 --at-- yahoo --dot-- com

You get a different view point from a different mindset and set of skills

[C Kingsbury]

Dave, you wouldn't happen to be flying around Boston, would you? You just
described my CFII :)

When I took my instrument checkride, I passed without any big issues, but
afterwards the examiner suggested a few changes to my technique. For
instance, I was taught to fly the ILS at about 72-75 knots (in a 172) and
to reset the second NAV to track the localizer when I crossed the FAF unless
I needed it for a fix. The examiner suggested I fly the approach at higher
airspeed and not bother backing up the localizer as "you're just giving
yourself more work to do." He also suggested that I not tell my CFII that he
told me so, and I know they know each other well. Haven't changed my
technique so far but have thought about it.

I think the biggest risk of sticking with one guy, particularly like these
kinds of guys, is that you acquire some of the same bees they have in their
bonnet. My guy can't stand "plastic airplanes" and swears he'd take round
gauges over a glass cockpit any day. On the other hand, this is a guy who's
flown thousands of hours in real IMC in small planes with 2 VORs and an ADF
and can fly partial-panel so smoothly I think he's part bird. So my approach
is when I don't understand why he tells me to do something, I ask him to
explain it and then make my own decision. Fortunately I end up agreeing with
him far more often than not, as I suspect you would with your guy if you've
stuck with him this far.

-cwk.

[Peter Duniho]

"Dave Jacobowitz" > wrote in message
om...
> Here's a question for the group: I've got a flight instructor that I
> work well with. I finished my private with him and did my entire
> instrument rating with him. I want to start on my commercial (SE, and
> then CFI, CFII, and later ME) and was wondering if there is any good
> reason to look for someone new to train with.
>
> [...]
> Just soliciting opinions... What do you guys think?

Nothing wrong with sticking with what works, if you want to do that.
However, I will say that I've learned something new from every single
instructor I've flown with, and in many cases, it's something I never would
have learned from my previous instructor.

As others point out, exposure to diversity of knowledge and opinions is a
great way to broaden your own abilities and "bag of tricks". So, if you're
ready to "leave the nest" so to speak, explain to your current instructor
that, while you have nothing but great things to say about him, that you'd
really appreciate it if he'd recommend another instructor for you to work
with so that you can be exposed to some variety in your training.

If he's as great a guy as you believe him to be, he'll be in favor of the
idea and will provide a good recommendation for someone who may not think or
fly exactly the way he does, but who still fits your learning style and
personality.

Pete

[Andrew Sarangan]

At your stage, I think trying out different instructors would be a good
thing. Since you are going for the CFI ticket it would help to know how
different instructors teach. Also, you are beyond the stage where the
instructor has much influence on your flying skills.



(Dave Jacobowitz) wrote in
om:

> Here's a question for the group: I've got a flight instructor that I
> work well with. I finished my private with him and did my entire
> instrument rating with him. I want to start on my commercial (SE, and
> then CFI, CFII, and later ME) and was wondering if there is any good
> reason to look for someone new to train with.
>
> To give some background, when working on my private I had some bad
> luck. The first guy I worked with was a timebuilder. I don't even want
> to say how many hours I had before I soloed, suffice it so say that I
> was probably taken advantage of. Later, he got an job with a commuter
> in Florida, and was gone. My second instructor, who soloed me probably
> on my second or third lesson (hmm...) was a good guy, but he had to
> relocate when his job at UAL went away. (he wasn't a pilot, but an
> A&P).
>
> Anyway, my current instructor is good. He's definitely of the
> old-school mold: great stick, kind of irritable, smart, ATP gazillion
> hours, nitpicky, occasionally absent-minded, has some strange ideas
> about how the world does/ought to work :) He's one of those guys who
> is happy to fly GPS approaches, but can't quite mask his derision for
> pilots who "need to see the little airplane on the moving map." Of
> course, we all know he has a point, but he's not the most politic
> person in the world.
>
> So, I get along with this guy, and I've done two ratings with him, so
> the question is if there really is anything to be gained by finding
> somebody else to fly with someone new, just for a different
> perspective? Different style of piloting? I suspect that the answer is
> yes, but is it worth it? What are the odds that the next guy I fly
> with is going to be a flake?
>
> It probably helps to share my long-term goals. I do *not* want to be
> an airline pilot. I have another career, which, though not the stuff
> of dreams, pays nicely. What I do want to do is get my CFI and have a
> student or two at a time, flying weekends, etc, maybe have a part-time
> income for when I'm "retired." Sometimes I think that maybe I could do
> some corporate flying one day if I one the lottery first. (or my
> company went IPO, which has seems to have similar odds)
>
> Also, I just like to pursue ratings, because I enjoy the challenge and
> the learning.
>
> Just soliciting opinions... What do you guys think?
>
>
> thanks!
>
> jacobowitz73 --at-- yahoo --dot-- com


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[Slick]

Try another instructor, you will definitely benefit from it. The fact that
you have had more than an average number of flakes is just luck. I've had 7
instructors so far and I definitely know what a good instructor is and what
a bad instructor is. I should add this, I only have two ratings. I had one
instructor completely quit his aviation career because he couldn't handle
the idea that some students are more advanced,( like me), and need to be let
go a little earlier than textbook training. I've learned so many stories and
stupid mistakes not to make by having so many instructors. It's wonderful,
it's like being molded into the golden aviator if you can soak experienced
words they give out. You wont regret going after another instructor.
"Dave Jacobowitz" > wrote in message
om...
> Here's a question for the group: I've got a flight instructor that I
> work well with. I finished my private with him and did my entire
> instrument rating with him. I want to start on my commercial (SE, and
> then CFI, CFII, and later ME) and was wondering if there is any good
> reason to look for someone new to train with.
>
> To give some background, when working on my private I had some bad
> luck. The first guy I worked with was a timebuilder. I don't even want
> to say how many hours I had before I soloed, suffice it so say that I
> was probably taken advantage of. Later, he got an job with a commuter
> in Florida, and was gone. My second instructor, who soloed me probably
> on my second or third lesson (hmm...) was a good guy, but he had to
> relocate when his job at UAL went away. (he wasn't a pilot, but an
> A&P).
>
> Anyway, my current instructor is good. He's definitely of the
> old-school mold: great stick, kind of irritable, smart, ATP gazillion
> hours, nitpicky, occasionally absent-minded, has some strange ideas
> about how the world does/ought to work :) He's one of those guys who
> is happy to fly GPS approaches, but can't quite mask his derision for
> pilots who "need to see the little airplane on the moving map." Of
> course, we all know he has a point, but he's not the most politic
> person in the world.
>
> So, I get along with this guy, and I've done two ratings with him, so
> the question is if there really is anything to be gained by finding
> somebody else to fly with someone new, just for a different
> perspective? Different style of piloting? I suspect that the answer is
> yes, but is it worth it? What are the odds that the next guy I fly
> with is going to be a flake?
>
> It probably helps to share my long-term goals. I do *not* want to be
> an airline pilot. I have another career, which, though not the stuff
> of dreams, pays nicely. What I do want to do is get my CFI and have a
> student or two at a time, flying weekends, etc, maybe have a part-time
> income for when I'm "retired." Sometimes I think that maybe I could do
> some corporate flying one day if I one the lottery first. (or my
> company went IPO, which has seems to have similar odds)
>
> Also, I just like to pursue ratings, because I enjoy the challenge and
> the learning.
>
> Just soliciting opinions... What do you guys think?
>
>
> thanks!
>
> jacobowitz73 --at-- yahoo --dot-- com




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[G.R. Patterson III]

Dave Jacobowitz wrote:
>
> Here's a question for the group: I've got a flight instructor that I
> work well with. I finished my private with him and did my entire
> instrument rating with him. I want to start on my commercial (SE, and
> then CFI, CFII, and later ME) and was wondering if there is any good
> reason to look for someone new to train with.

I'd say no. This guy has proven that he can teach you and you've proven that you
learn well from him. If you want a different experience, wait 'til you need a BFR and
go up with someone else.

George Patterson
If a man gets into a fight 3,000 miles away from home, he *had* to have
been looking for it.

[Cub Driver]

>I think trying different instructors is a good idea.

The instructor who soloed me was my fourth (flight school closed down;
airlines; etc) and has since become a friend and counselor. I'm sure I
could manage if he retired, but I would miss him. I certainly wouldn't
want to swap him for any of the three who preceded him!

On the other hand, I've done two "courses" elsewhere, aerbatics/stalls
and bush flying, and they were great experiences. So yes, it is useful
to fly with somebody new.



all the best -- Dan Ford
email: (put Cubdriver in subject line)

Warbird's Forum www.warbirdforum.com
Piper Cub Forum www.pipercubforum.com
the blog www.danford.net

[William W. Plummer]

Steven Barnes wrote:
> I think trying different instructors is a good idea. During my primary I had
> a couple different instructors before I settled on someone who did a great
> job & finished the private. He started me on the instrument, but due to time
> constraints I ended up finishing the IR with another instructor. I could see
> some similarities in styles & approaches (pun intended), but quite a few
> differences, too. Made for learning different ways of looking at things.
>
> Bottom line: Try someone new. If it isn't working out, dump 'em & go back to
> your current instructor. This current instructor shouldn't have a problem
> with you wanting to see different viewpoints on things.
>
>
> "Dave Jacobowitz" > wrote in message
> om...
>
>>Here's a question for the group: I've got a flight instructor that I
>>work well with. I finished my private with him and did my entire
>>instrument rating with him. I want to start on my commercial (SE, and
>>then CFI, CFII, and later ME) and was wondering if there is any good
>>reason to look for someone new to train with.
>>
>>To give some background, when working on my private I had some bad
>>luck. The first guy I worked with was a timebuilder. I don't even want
>>to say how many hours I had before I soloed, suffice it so say that I
>>was probably taken advantage of. Later, he got an job with a commuter
>>in Florida, and was gone. My second instructor, who soloed me probably
>>on my second or third lesson (hmm...) was a good guy, but he had to
>>relocate when his job at UAL went away. (he wasn't a pilot, but an
>>A&P).
>>
>>Anyway, my current instructor is good. He's definitely of the
>>old-school mold: great stick, kind of irritable, smart, ATP gazillion
>>hours, nitpicky, occasionally absent-minded, has some strange ideas
>>about how the world does/ought to work :) He's one of those guys who
>>is happy to fly GPS approaches, but can't quite mask his derision for
>>pilots who "need to see the little airplane on the moving map." Of
>>course, we all know he has a point, but he's not the most politic
>>person in the world.
>>
>>So, I get along with this guy, and I've done two ratings with him, so
>>the question is if there really is anything to be gained by finding
>>somebody else to fly with someone new, just for a different
>>perspective? Different style of piloting? I suspect that the answer is
>>yes, but is it worth it? What are the odds that the next guy I fly
>>with is going to be a flake?
>>
>>It probably helps to share my long-term goals. I do *not* want to be
>>an airline pilot. I have another career, which, though not the stuff
>>of dreams, pays nicely. What I do want to do is get my CFI and have a
>>student or two at a time, flying weekends, etc, maybe have a part-time
>>income for when I'm "retired." Sometimes I think that maybe I could do
>>some corporate flying one day if I one the lottery first. (or my
>>company went IPO, which has seems to have similar odds)
>>
>>Also, I just like to pursue ratings, because I enjoy the challenge and
>>the learning.
>>
>>Just soliciting opinions... What do you guys think?
>>
>>
>>thanks!
>>
>>jacobowitz73 --at-- yahoo --dot-- com
>
>
>
There is a cost associated with switching instructors. If you are
wealthy, this isn't and issue for you. But the real measure is whether
you are progressing at the rate you think you should, not only flying,
but learning how and why you do things (see discussion of juggling radios).

[Jose]

You don't have to switch instructors to get the benefit of another viewpoint. You can just take a few lessons from a different instructor while keeping with your old one for most of the instructoin, and you can pick up new tips and tricks that way.
I'd reccomend that approach, at least for starters.

Jose
--
for Email, make the obvious change in the address

[Michael]

(Dave Jacobowitz) wrote
> So, I get along with this guy, and I've done two ratings with him, so
> the question is if there really is anything to be gained by finding
> somebody else to fly with someone new, just for a different
> perspective? Different style of piloting? I suspect that the answer is
> yes, but is it worth it? What are the odds that the next guy I fly
> with is going to be a flake?

Getting a differfent perspective on flying styles (and teaching
styles, since your goals include teaching) is definitely very valuable
- potentially. I say potentially because not all perspectives are
valuable. It's unfortunate but true that most instructors really have
little or nothing valuable to teach other than the passing of
checkrides. Not their fault - they simply lack experience.

I'm not sure what your odds are of getting a flake (and I'm not sure
what you mean by a flake) but your chances of getting an instructor
who knows very little about real flying (as opposed to passing
checkrides - not at all the same thing) are very high unless you are
very careful. I recommend you discuss your concerns with your
instructor (trust me, he will recognize them as legitimate) and ask
him to recommend someone.

> It probably helps to share my long-term goals. I do *not* want to be
> an airline pilot. I have another career, which, though not the stuff
> of dreams, pays nicely. What I do want to do is get my CFI and have a
> student or two at a time, flying weekends, etc, maybe have a part-time
> income for when I'm "retired." Sometimes I think that maybe I could do
> some corporate flying one day if I one the lottery first. (or my
> company went IPO, which has seems to have similar odds)

I know exactly where you are coming from - I was there, and I'm now
where you want to be. I'm very glad that I flew with a variety of
instructors rather than just one. Even very experienced pilots can
disagree on quite a few matters of technique, and it helps to see as
many sides of the issue as possible. On the other hand, I've also
flown with my share of low time pilots trying to be instructors.
Can't say I learned anything particularly valuable from most of them.

So basically, my advice is you should fly with other instructors - but
only if you can find ones who are worthwhile.

Michael

[Dave Jacobowitz]

Hey, thanks to everyone who responded to my message! I got a lot of
interesting perspectives and idea. I think one thing I know for sure
is that I probably should start flying with more pilots in general,
not just/necessarily a new instructor.

Anybody in the Bay Area looking for a new flying pal?

-- dave