GPS Question

[Chuck]

In A&P school several years ago, we were told that GPS was not certified for
use in aircraft, although they do make a good *aid*.

Has the FAA changed it's stance on the use of GPS? Has GPS become certified
to use in navigation in aircraft?


Thanks...

Chuck


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[Peter Duniho]

"Chuck" > wrote in message
. ..
> In A&P school several years ago, we were told that GPS was not certified
> for
> use in aircraft, although they do make a good *aid*.
>
> Has the FAA changed it's stance on the use of GPS? Has GPS become
> certified
> to use in navigation in aircraft?

Certified GPSs are certified. Uncertified GPSs are not.

Handhelds cannot be certified. Panel-mounted ones can be, but are not
always.

I'm surprised that you were taught any differently "several years" ago,
since GPS isn't all that new a technology anymore. Just how many years ago
WAS that?

Pete

[Chuck]

"Peter Duniho" > wrote in message
...
> "Chuck" > wrote in message
> . ..
> > In A&P school several years ago, we were told that GPS was not certified
> > for
> > use in aircraft, although they do make a good *aid*.
> >
> > Has the FAA changed it's stance on the use of GPS? Has GPS become
> > certified
> > to use in navigation in aircraft?
>
> Certified GPSs are certified. Uncertified GPSs are not.
>
> Handhelds cannot be certified. Panel-mounted ones can be, but are not
> always.
>
> I'm surprised that you were taught any differently "several years" ago,
> since GPS isn't all that new a technology anymore. Just how many years
ago
> WAS that?
>
> Pete
>
>

It was 2002-2003.

I will admit that my A&P school wasn't very good. I feel that I received a
poor education dealing with aircraft, but, I was able to pass the O&P's (off
campus)


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[Andrew Sarangan]

"Chuck" > wrote in
m:

>
> "Peter Duniho" > wrote in message
> ...
>> "Chuck" > wrote in message
>> . ..
>> > In A&P school several years ago, we were told that GPS was not
>> > certified for
>> > use in aircraft, although they do make a good *aid*.
>> >
>> > Has the FAA changed it's stance on the use of GPS? Has GPS become
>> > certified
>> > to use in navigation in aircraft?
>>
>> Certified GPSs are certified. Uncertified GPSs are not.
>>
>> Handhelds cannot be certified. Panel-mounted ones can be, but are
>> not always.
>>
>> I'm surprised that you were taught any differently "several years"
>> ago, since GPS isn't all that new a technology anymore. Just how
>> many years
> ago
>> WAS that?
>>
>> Pete
>>
>>
>
> It was 2002-2003.
>
> I will admit that my A&P school wasn't very good. I feel that I
> received a poor education dealing with aircraft, but, I was able to
> pass the O&P's (off campus)
>

There were plenty of GPS approaches in use in 2002.




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[Chuck]

"Andrew Sarangan" > wrote in message
. 145...
> "Chuck" > wrote in
> m:
>
> >
> > "Peter Duniho" > wrote in message
> > ...
> >> "Chuck" > wrote in message
> >> . ..
> >> > In A&P school several years ago, we were told that GPS was not
> >> > certified for
> >> > use in aircraft, although they do make a good *aid*.
> >> >
> >> > Has the FAA changed it's stance on the use of GPS? Has GPS become
> >> > certified
> >> > to use in navigation in aircraft?
> >>
> >> Certified GPSs are certified. Uncertified GPSs are not.
> >>
> >> Handhelds cannot be certified. Panel-mounted ones can be, but are
> >> not always.
> >>
> >> I'm surprised that you were taught any differently "several years"
> >> ago, since GPS isn't all that new a technology anymore. Just how
> >> many years
> > ago
> >> WAS that?
> >>
> >> Pete
> >>
> >>
> >
> > It was 2002-2003.
> >
> > I will admit that my A&P school wasn't very good. I feel that I
> > received a poor education dealing with aircraft, but, I was able to
> > pass the O&P's (off campus)
> >
>
> There were plenty of GPS approaches in use in 2002.
>

Hmmm... I guess that proves that my A&P school sucked! :)


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[Blanche]

Which school so we can avoid it?

[Chuck]

"Blanche" > wrote in message
...
> Which school so we can avoid it?
>

Tarrant County College

http://www.tccd.edu/neutral/DivisionDepartmentPage.asp?pagekey=176&menu=2


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[Thomas Borchert]

Chuck,

> we were told that GPS was not certified for
> use in aircraft, although they do make a good *aid*.
>

Total BS, I'm afraid. Even the use of handheld GPSs is allowed. And
then there are certified GPS units which are installed in the panel.
Some are certified for VFR only, some for IFR enroute, others for IFR
approaches. There are hundreds of GPS approaches, possibly thousands.
And then there's WAAS, too, which enhances GPS precision. Rolled out by
the FAA this year.

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

[Schmoe]

"Chuck" > wrote in message
m...
>
>whack>

> It was 2002-2003.
>
> I will admit that my A&P school wasn't very good. I feel that I received a
> poor education dealing with aircraft, but, I was able to pass the O&P's
> (off
> campus)


I hope you are not working as an A&P. If you are, don't quit your real job.

[Chuck]

"Schmoe" > wrote in message
. net...
> "Chuck" > wrote in message
> m...
> >
> >whack>
>
> > It was 2002-2003.
> >
> > I will admit that my A&P school wasn't very good. I feel that I received
a
> > poor education dealing with aircraft, but, I was able to pass the O&P's
> > (off
> > campus)
>
>
> I hope you are not working as an A&P. If you are, don't quit your real
job.
>
>

No, I am not working as an A&P.


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[Chuck]

"Schmoe" > wrote in message
. net...
> "Chuck" > wrote in message
> m...
> >
> >whack>
>
> > It was 2002-2003.
> >
> > I will admit that my A&P school wasn't very good. I feel that I received
a
> > poor education dealing with aircraft, but, I was able to pass the O&P's
> > (off
> > campus)
>
>
> I hope you are not working as an A&P. If you are, don't quit your real
job.
>
>

Speaking of, out of 25 in our class, I would trust maybe 5 people (including
me, of course) to actually work on an aircraft.

One guy got arrested for drug possession a little while into our 2 year
course, and by the time the 2 years were up, he was working for AA. Another
(suspected - heard him talk about it but never saw it) drug user went to
work for GE Online services.

There were several more that I suspect had a drug habits and several that I
know for a fact have alcohol problems.

Some were just plain ignorant. One guy, I had to show him how to tighten the
chuck on a drill. He had no clue!

In Aviation Science class (if I remember correctly), in the math portion,
the instructor would have each of the 25 students go to the board and do
basic adding, subtracting, multiplying and dividing. We each had to do 3 or
4 problems of each. This took the entire 2 hour class period.

In Assembly and Rigging, we flew paper airplanes the entire 2 hour class
period. Same instructor as above. Now don't get me wrong, I feel that paper
airplanes are probably a good aid in teaching aerodynamics, but for 2 hours,
and no explanation of aerodynamics???

Most of the instructors had no business teaching aviation. They may be good
in their fields, but they were not good *instructors*.

In basic electricity, I learned more in one day from a substitute
instructor, than I did the whole semester with our regular instructor. We
spent 1, yes, one day learning AC electricity. Same instructor also taught
welding. During the first class period, he informed us that he is not a
welder and knows nothing about welding. I saw him try to weld, and I believe
him! I would show him a welding project and ask what he thought. He would
say that it looked great and to turn it in. I would turn it in and would get
a 70 on it.

Sorry.... I'm on a roll now... :)

I'm sorry, but that place was a joke.


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[The Weiss Family]

"Chuck" > wrote in message
. ..
> In A&P school several years ago, we were told that GPS was not certified
> for
> use in aircraft, although they do make a good *aid*.
>
> Has the FAA changed it's stance on the use of GPS? Has GPS become
> certified
> to use in navigation in aircraft?
>
>
> Thanks...
>
> Chuck
>
>
> ---
> Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
> Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
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>

You know what absolutely blows me away, and I can't wait until it becomes
the new standard?
With WAAS technology, you can fly a GPS approach into an airport that has NO
localizer, NO glideslope, etc.
The GPS will guide you in within 1 meter horizontally and vertically.
I'm only VFR, so some of my terminology may be off, but you get the idea.
How cool is that?

Seems to me that airports could save money because they wouldn't need to
maintain any radio navigation equipment anymore...

Adam
N7966L
Beech Super III

[Dave S]

So as an alumni did you pass on this valuable feedback so that the
citizens of Tarrant County and the State of Texas get a good return on
their educational tax dollars??

Dave

Chuck wrote:
> "Schmoe" > wrote in message
> . net...
>
>>"Chuck" > wrote in message
m...
>>
>>>whack>
>>
>>>It was 2002-2003.
>>>
>>>I will admit that my A&P school wasn't very good. I feel that I received
>
> a
>
>>>poor education dealing with aircraft, but, I was able to pass the O&P's
>>>(off
>>>campus)
>>
>>
>>I hope you are not working as an A&P. If you are, don't quit your real
>
> job.
>
>>
>
> Speaking of, out of 25 in our class, I would trust maybe 5 people (including
> me, of course) to actually work on an aircraft.
>
> One guy got arrested for drug possession a little while into our 2 year
> course, and by the time the 2 years were up, he was working for AA. Another
> (suspected - heard him talk about it but never saw it) drug user went to
> work for GE Online services.
>
> There were several more that I suspect had a drug habits and several that I
> know for a fact have alcohol problems.
>
> Some were just plain ignorant. One guy, I had to show him how to tighten the
> chuck on a drill. He had no clue!
>
> In Aviation Science class (if I remember correctly), in the math portion,
> the instructor would have each of the 25 students go to the board and do
> basic adding, subtracting, multiplying and dividing. We each had to do 3 or
> 4 problems of each. This took the entire 2 hour class period.
>
> In Assembly and Rigging, we flew paper airplanes the entire 2 hour class
> period. Same instructor as above. Now don't get me wrong, I feel that paper
> airplanes are probably a good aid in teaching aerodynamics, but for 2 hours,
> and no explanation of aerodynamics???
>
> Most of the instructors had no business teaching aviation. They may be good
> in their fields, but they were not good *instructors*.
>
> In basic electricity, I learned more in one day from a substitute
> instructor, than I did the whole semester with our regular instructor. We
> spent 1, yes, one day learning AC electricity. Same instructor also taught
> welding. During the first class period, he informed us that he is not a
> welder and knows nothing about welding. I saw him try to weld, and I believe
> him! I would show him a welding project and ask what he thought. He would
> say that it looked great and to turn it in. I would turn it in and would get
> a 70 on it.
>
> Sorry.... I'm on a roll now... :)
>
> I'm sorry, but that place was a joke.
>
>
> ---
> Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
> Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
> Version: 6.0.788 / Virus Database: 533 - Release Date: 11/1/2004
>
>

[Dave S]

>
> You know what absolutely blows me away, and I can't wait until it becomes
> the new standard?
> With WAAS technology, you can fly a GPS approach into an airport that has NO
> localizer, NO glideslope, etc.
> The GPS will guide you in within 1 meter horizontally and vertically.
> I'm only VFR, so some of my terminology may be off, but you get the idea.
> How cool is that?
>
> Seems to me that airports could save money because they wouldn't need to
> maintain any radio navigation equipment anymore...
>
> Adam
> N7966L
> Beech Super III
>
>

I'm just a private pilot too but dont forget the other parts of the
"instrument approach" structure. The electronic glidepath is only part
of it.

You have to have good lighting as well... if you plan on doing GPS
approaches down to the equivalent of a Cat 1 ILS you will still need to
have the lighting systems and runway markings that allow you to
transition to a visual environment at say 200 feet off the deck when you
break out of the soup. That means you still will need over 1200 linear
feet worth of land that can support it. Don't expect 200 ft minimums to
a 40 x 3000 strip of asphalt with 50 ft obstacles 100 ft from the end
across the fence.

WAAS is good stuff.. and it will open a lot of airports up, not to
mention allow glideslopes to EVERY runway that can support it (without
regard to ILS frequency congestion). But it wont be a hard IFR solution
to every field.

Dave

[G.R. Patterson III]

Chuck wrote:
>
> In A&P school several years ago, we were told that GPS was not certified for
> use in aircraft, although they do make a good *aid*.
>
> Has the FAA changed it's stance on the use of GPS? Has GPS become certified
> to use in navigation in aircraft?

Yes.

George Patterson
If a man gets into a fight 3,000 miles away from home, he *had* to have
been looking for it.

[G.R. Patterson III]

Chuck wrote:
>
> Hmmm... I guess that proves that my A&P school sucked! :)

Don't know about that, but they were definitely wrong about GPS.

George Patterson
If a man gets into a fight 3,000 miles away from home, he *had* to have
been looking for it.

[Chuck]

"Dave S" > wrote in message
link.net...
> So as an alumni did you pass on this valuable feedback so that the
> citizens of Tarrant County and the State of Texas get a good return on
> their educational tax dollars??
>
> Dave
>


No I haven't. If I write the school administration with my complaints, I
feel that it will fall on deaf ears. There is so much politics at the
school, it's pitiful...



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[Thomas Borchert]

Chuck,

> that I suspect had a drug habits and several that I
> know for a fact have alcohol problems.
>

What's the difference?

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

[Thomas Borchert]

G.R.,

> > Has the FAA changed it's stance on the use of GPS? Has GPS become certified
> > to use in navigation in aircraft?
>
> Yes.
>

Did it ever HAVE that stance?

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

[Bob Noel]

In article >,
Thomas Borchert > wrote:

> > > Has the FAA changed it's stance on the use of GPS? Has GPS become
> > > certified
> > > to use in navigation in aircraft?
> >
> > Yes.
>
> Did it ever HAVE that stance?

Yes. There was a time when the use of GPS was not authorized as
a navigation source for IFR operations.

--
Bob Noel

[Blanche]

If the school won't pay attention, then the next step is the FSDO
& the FAA Training/Certification departments.

At that point, *someone* will pay attention!

[Chuck]

"Thomas Borchert" > wrote in message
...
> Chuck,
>
> > that I suspect had a drug habits and several that I
> > know for a fact have alcohol problems.
> >
>
> What's the difference?

Other than one is legal and one isn't, not much if it presents a problem


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[Chuck]

"Thomas Borchert" > wrote in message
...
> G.R.,
>
> > > Has the FAA changed it's stance on the use of GPS? Has GPS become
certified
> > > to use in navigation in aircraft?
> >
> > Yes.
> >
>
> Did it ever HAVE that stance?
>

From what my instructors in A&P school said, yes, they did HAVE that stance.
Looks as though my instructors were wrong though, huh?

Chill out!


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[Chuck]

"Blanche" > wrote in message
...
> If the school won't pay attention, then the next step is the FSDO
> & the FAA Training/Certification departments.
>
> At that point, *someone* will pay attention!
>


I worked 10 hour night shifts on the weekends for 2 years while going to
school full time to obtain my A&P. It was pure hell, between the hours that
I kept, very little sleep, several hours study time per night (luckily my
boss let me do a little study at work) busting my ass for the O&P's and
trying to maintain somewhat of a family life for my wife and son. I don't
know that I want to call FSDO and get them involved. I don't want to risk
what I have accomplished. I would hate to lose my certificate!

I know this is probably not the attitude that I should have, but I figure
that the A&P is mainly just a license to learn. The people that I mentioned
before, *if* they actually do get into aviation, should learn the real stuff
from their employers, I hope anyway. I feel that I am more qualified than
most of those goofballs in school to work as an A&P, and would probably get
hired before they would. I have had only one nibble as far as a job offer
goes. I am sure most of them still work at McDonalds anyway.

Also, the guy that runs our FSDO is buddies with the guy that runs the
aviation department at school, so I don't know how far a complaint like this
would go.


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[Thomas Borchert]

Chuck,

> Other than one is legal and one isn't, not much if it presents a problem
>

and the amount of money the government makes from it through taxes
differs, too.


--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

[Thomas Borchert]

Chuck,

> Chill out!
>

Easier said than done. Guys from that school might be "repairing"
airliners today. Who knows what else they haven't learned. This is
serious stuff...

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

[N9NWO]

"Chuck" > wrote in message
. ..
: In A&P school several years ago, we were told that GPS was not certified
for
: use in aircraft, although they do make a good *aid*.
:
: Has the FAA changed it's stance on the use of GPS? Has GPS become
certified
: to use in navigation in aircraft?
:
:
: Thanks...
:
: Chuck

I believe, if the unit is certified, that it is good for at least Cat I.

[G.R. Patterson III]

Thomas Borchert wrote:
>
> G.R.,
>
> > > Has the FAA changed it's stance on the use of GPS? Has GPS become certified
> > > to use in navigation in aircraft?
> >
> > Yes.
> >
>
> Did it ever HAVE that stance?

Yes. About 10 years ago or more.

George Patterson
If a man gets into a fight 3,000 miles away from home, he *had* to have
been looking for it.

[Diverhank]

"N9NWO" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Chuck" > wrote in message
> . ..
> : In A&P school several years ago, we were told that GPS was not certified
> for
> : use in aircraft, although they do make a good *aid*.
> :
> : Has the FAA changed it's stance on the use of GPS? Has GPS become
> certified
> : to use in navigation in aircraft?
> :
> :
> : Thanks...
> :
> : Chuck
>
> I believe, if the unit is certified, that it is good for at least Cat I.
>
Well...if the unit is certified to SCAT-I (special category I). There has
not been any units in used that is certified to this level. Boeing is
working on one. These are not mere GPS though, they are differential GPS
(with specially designed, dedicated ground station correcting for errors).

WAAS is supposed to take care of the ground station part but so far has not
been good enough for use for CAT-1.