Registration Airplane or Motorglider

[Russ Haggerty]

I am building and ready to register a Europa experimental. I have
both regular and glider wings. I am soliciting opinions as to any
problems or restrictions to flight if I register it as a motorglider.
I see advantages as to no medical requirements for glider license, and
also 10 flight requirement for license and a motor launch endorsement
from a CFIG.

Any opinions or comments welcome

Thanks........

[William W. Plummer]

Russ Haggerty wrote:
> I am building and ready to register a Europa experimental. I have
> both regular and glider wings. I am soliciting opinions as to any
> problems or restrictions to flight if I register it as a motorglider.
> I see advantages as to no medical requirements for glider license, and
> also 10 flight requirement for license and a motor launch endorsement
> from a CFIG.
>
> Any opinions or comments welcome
>
> Thanks........
Glider and Lighter-Than-Air pilots do have medical requirements.
However, they don't have to hire an AME to certify the pilot has no
concition that would make him unsafe. These pilots are "self certifying."

[Larry Dighera]

On Sat, 13 Nov 2004 12:38:29 GMT, Russ Haggerty >
wrote in >::

> I am building and ready to register a Europa experimental. I have
>both regular and glider wings. I am soliciting opinions as to any
>problems or restrictions to flight if I register it as a motorglider.
>I see advantages as to no medical requirements for glider license, and
>also 10 flight requirement for license and a motor launch endorsement
>from a CFIG.
>
>Any opinions or comments welcome
>
>Thanks........

Congratulations on your completion of a worthy project.

In addition to the benefit of self-certifying your medical condition
for operation of your Europa, registering it as a motorglider will
give you the right-of-way over all but balloons, aircraft in distress,
and perhaps aircraft towing or refueling other aircraft. I am unable
to think of a single negative aspect to choosing to register your
Europa as a glider.

I've crossposted to rec.aviation.soaring; readership of that newsgroup
may be able to provide additional insight into your decision.

What are other Europa builders doing?




http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/text/text-idx?c=ecfr&sid=9d5d67098112d460bcfa693f893dd20d&rgn=div8&view=text&node=14:2.0.1.3.10.2.4.7&idno=14
§ 91.113 Right-of-way rules: Except water operations.
(a) Inapplicability. This section does not apply to the operation
of an aircraft on water.

(b) General. When weather conditions permit, regardless of whether
an operation is conducted under instrument flight rules or visual
flight rules, vigilance shall be maintained by each person
operating an aircraft so as to see and avoid other aircraft. When
a rule of this section gives another aircraft the right-of-way,
the pilot shall give way to that aircraft and may not pass over,
under, or ahead of it unless well clear.

(c) In distress. An aircraft in distress has the right-of-way over
all other air traffic.

(d) Converging. When aircraft of the same category are converging
at approximately the same altitude (except head-on, or nearly so),
the aircraft to the other's right has the right-of-way. If the
aircraft are of different categories—

(1) A balloon has the right-of-way over any other category of
aircraft;

(2) A glider has the right-of-way over an airship, powered
parachute, weight-shift-control aircraft, airplane, or rotorcraft.

(3) An airship has the right-of-way over a powered parachute,
weight-shift-control aircraft, airplane, or rotorcraft.

However, an aircraft towing or refueling other aircraft has the
right-of-way over all other engine-driven aircraft.

...

[COLIN LAMB]

One reason to register as a glider is that it may be more valuable on sale,
because of the medical issue. Right now, a pilot who has been denied a
medical may not be licensed under the new sport-pilot rules, but can fly a
glider/motorglider so long as he can certify himself.

One caution is that once certified as an aircraft, it may be difficult to
recertify it as a glider. So, if you think you may ever want it certified
as a glider, then do it with the original certification.

Colin N12HS


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[Mark James Boyd]

Larry Dighera > wrote:

>I am unable
>to think of a single negative aspect to choosing to register your
>Europa as a glider.

The vast majority of pilots have an airplane license and NOT
a glider license (in the USA). They will not be able to get insurance
without at least a glider solo endorsement and a self-launch
endorsement. There are at least 100 ASEL CFIs to every self-launch
capable CFIG, so finding an instructor is difficult even
if you provide the Europa for training for free prior to purchase.

So if you decide to get a partner or sell the aircraft, you will either
have a smaller pool of potential interested pilots, or will have
to convince interested parties to take glider training.

Whether this negative is overriden by other positives is something
you'll have to consider...

I wish the USA would instantly grant glider privs. to every
airplane pilot. Then the only thing stopping a pilot from
flying a glider would be the need for a launch endorsement.
I've never met an ASEL pilot who couldn't safely fly a glider
in all the other areas by the time he had learned to safely aerotow...
--

------------+
Mark J. Boyd

[Mark James Boyd]

In article et>,
COLIN LAMB > wrote:
>One reason to register as a glider is that it may be more valuable on sale,
>because of the medical issue. Right now, a pilot who has been denied a
>medical may not be licensed under the new sport-pilot rules, but can fly a
>glider/motorglider so long as he can certify himself.

The Europa Vne is so high it would not qualify as a glider under
sport pilot. If the max cruise is low enough, it may qualify as
a Light Sport Airplane, however, with all the advantages of
minimal maint. certification and no medical...

Anyone know the Europa max cruise speed in level flight?
--

------------+
Mark J. Boyd

[[email protected]]

Doesn't need to. It would be certified as a glider, experimental, amateur
built.
There is no category for motorglider. It would not be subject to weight,
speed
limitations, other than what you put down on the certification papers when
you
get it certified. Builder's choice.

Mark James Boyd wrote in message <41964365$1@darkstar>...
>In article et>,
>COLIN LAMB > wrote:
>>One reason to register as a glider is that it may be more valuable on
sale,
>>because of the medical issue. Right now, a pilot who has been denied a
>>medical may not be licensed under the new sport-pilot rules, but can fly a
>>glider/motorglider so long as he can certify himself.
>
>The Europa Vne is so high it would not qualify as a glider under
>sport pilot. If the max cruise is low enough, it may qualify as
>a Light Sport Airplane, however, with all the advantages of
>minimal maint. certification and no medical...
>
>Anyone know the Europa max cruise speed in level flight?
>--
>
>------------+
>Mark J. Boyd

[Vaughn]

"Mark James Boyd" > wrote in message
news:4196428a$1@darkstar...
> I've never met an ASEL pilot who couldn't safely fly a glider
> in all the other areas by the time he had learned to safely aerotow...

Then you are just lucky.

Vaughn

[BTIZ]

>
> One caution is that once certified as an aircraft, it may be difficult to
> recertify it as a glider. So, if you think you may ever want it certified
> as a glider, then do it with the original certification.
>
> Colin N12HS

An Airplane and a Glider are both AIRCRAFT... so how do you intend to
certify it?

I think you meant to say, Airplane,, not Aircraft.. and yes.. once certified
one way, it is difficult to change...

BT

[Bill Zaleski]

On 13 Nov 2004 09:21:14 -0700, (Mark James Boyd)
wrote:

>Larry Dighera > wrote:
>
>>I am unable
>>to think of a single negative aspect to choosing to register your
>>Europa as a glider.
>
>The vast majority of pilots have an airplane license and NOT
>a glider license (in the USA). They will not be able to get insurance
>without at least a glider solo endorsement and a self-launch
>endorsement. There are at least 100 ASEL CFIs to every self-launch
>capable CFIG, so finding an instructor is difficult even
>if you provide the Europa for training for free prior to purchase.
>
>So if you decide to get a partner or sell the aircraft, you will either
>have a smaller pool of potential interested pilots, or will have
>to convince interested parties to take glider training.
>
>Whether this negative is overriden by other positives is something
>you'll have to consider...
>
>I wish the USA would instantly grant glider privs. to every
>airplane pilot. Then the only thing stopping a pilot from
>flying a glider would be the need for a launch endorsement.
>I've never met an ASEL pilot who couldn't safely fly a glider
>in all the other areas by the time he had learned to safely aerotow...



I've never met an ASEL pilot who couldn't safely fly a glider
in all the other areas by the time he had learned to safely aerotow...

That is an absurd statement.

[chris]

Wouldn't one disadvantage for registering as a glider would be the
restriction in the US for only Daytime VFR?
but I don't recall if that is related to the equipment of the glider
or the glider pilot restriction.
chris

[Larry Dighera]

On 13 Nov 2004 20:30:44 -0800, (chris) wrote
in >::

>Wouldn't one disadvantage for registering as a glider would be the
>restriction in the US for only Daytime VFR?
>but I don't recall if that is related to the equipment of the glider
>or the glider pilot restriction.
>chris

If such a restriction exists, that would be a significant disadvantage
for motorglider certification indeed. Can you please provide the
regulation number that imposes the restriction you mention?

Obviously, the motorglider must be equipped with position lighting for
night operations. Other than that and perhaps an anti-collision light
and cockpit lighting, (all of which I presume the Europa is equipped,
as it is apparently certifiable as an ASEL capable of night
operation), the Europa should qualify for night operations, IMHO.

I am unaware of a day VFR restriction on airmen who hold a glider
certificate.

[COLIN LAMB]

"I've never met an ASEL pilot who couldn't safely fly a glider
in all the other areas by the time he had learned to safely aerotow"

Hello - I am one. I was a power pilot first and used to make my glider
instructor sick with uncoordinated turns. My brain kept kicking the yarn
instead of pulling it. Took a number of flights before I was safe, just
because of that trick. Once that was learned, the self launch endorsement
brought out additional required skills, like how to turn an aircraft with
long wings around without hitting things on the ground, and how to get out a
pothole without sufficient power.

Transistioning from one type of aircraft to another brings unique problems,
because of all the "bad" habits that need to be unlearned and new skills
needed.

Colin N12HS





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[Mark James Boyd]

Well, one of the points was that certification as a glider means no
medical. My point was that certification as an Airplane-LSA
also means no medical.

Additionally, if it is an LSA (either as an LSA glider or as
an LSA airplane) a repairman with 16 hours of training can do the
yearly condition inspection. If it is just glider-experimental-amateur
built then an A&P or the builder must do the condition inspection.

I own an airplane-experimental which qualifies as an LSA.
Because of this, I and my partners have looked very
closely at the LSA repairman rules and are very interested
in taking the LSA inspection course.

If you own a glider which may qualify as an LSA, I suggest you look
carefully at these regulations and the possibilities they afford.

The SGS 2-33, SZD 50-3, SGS 1-34, SGS 1-26, Std Libelle,
Open Cirrus, ASW-15, H301, etc. seem to all qualify.
Vne 120kts or less, under 1320lbs meets the requirements.
The Vne seems to be the discriminator.

I'm still surprised why the PW-5, Apis, and Sparrowhawk are
121 or 123 Knots Vne. One would have thought the designers
would jigger something enough to reduce the Vne to 120 to
meet this rule. I've had enough contact with these
and other manufacturers to notice that the potential marketing
benefits of Sport Pilot and LSA are only partially understood...

In article >,
> wrote:
>Doesn't need to. It would be certified as a glider, experimental, amateur
>built.
>There is no category for motorglider. It would not be subject to weight,
>speed
>limitations, other than what you put down on the certification papers when
>you
>get it certified. Builder's choice.
>
>Mark James Boyd wrote in message <41964365$1@darkstar>...
>>In article et>,
>>COLIN LAMB > wrote:
>>>One reason to register as a glider is that it may be more valuable on
>sale,
>>>because of the medical issue. Right now, a pilot who has been denied a
>>>medical may not be licensed under the new sport-pilot rules, but can fly a
>>>glider/motorglider so long as he can certify himself.
>>
>>The Europa Vne is so high it would not qualify as a glider under
>>sport pilot. If the max cruise is low enough, it may qualify as
>>a Light Sport Airplane, however, with all the advantages of
>>minimal maint. certification and no medical...
>>
>>Anyone know the Europa max cruise speed in level flight?
>>--
>>
>>------------+
>>Mark J. Boyd
>
>


--

------------+
Mark J. Boyd

[Mark James Boyd]

"I've never met an ASEL pilot who couldn't safely fly a glider
in all the other (PTS) areas by the time he had learned to safely aerotow"

Except for "soaring techniques," I can't think of another area of the
PTS that isn't required in order to sign someone off for
aerotow.

5 ft rope break: MCA, stalls, and recovery, speed-to-fly,
normal and crosswind landings.

50 ft rope break (simulated): slip to a landing, off airport
landing.

200 ft rope break: steep turns with coordination, turns to a heading,
downwind landing, minimum sink speed.

So for me, by the time I sign anyone off for aerotow,
they're already safe to fly a glider in all the other (safety) areas.

Granted, not in all conditions, and not in all gliders are they safe,
but this is trivially true. I don't know any pilot who
is safe in all gliders in all conditions (although there are at
least two I can think of on this newsgroup who would argue
differently ;P).

Colin is talking about self-launch, a different launch technique,
but I'd be surprised if his instructor felt he could
safely self-launch before his coordination was good. Even in
self-launch, if the engine stops at XXX feet, isn't there a
turn back to the airport? Isn't this with a pretty good roll rate
and steep bank? Doesn't this require good coordination to ensure
safety? Wouldn't this be required before endorsing someone for
self-launch?

Does someone need to learn soaring techniques to safely fly a glider?
I didn't. Sure I learned steep turns, and we talked about
thermals, but I trained and was soloed (by a glider DPE) in calm air.
I never felt the least bit unsafe.

Are there any instructors who felt an ASEL transition pilot could
safely do all of the things for an aerotow endorsement but NOT safely
solo? This seems a little funny, since an ASEL transition pilot
with an aerotow endorsement can fly an experimental glider
solo under the current rules anyway (no cat/class required for PIC).
--

------------+
Mark J. Boyd

[Doug Easton]

Gliders are allowed to fly at night or in IMC IF correctly equiped.


"chris" > wrote in message
om...
> Wouldn't one disadvantage for registering as a glider would be the
> restriction in the US for only Daytime VFR?
> but I don't recall if that is related to the equipment of the glider
> or the glider pilot restriction.
> chris

[[email protected]]

Only the fixed gear ones. The rest would have to be fitted with floats.

>The SGS 2-33, SZD 50-3, SGS 1-34, SGS 1-26, Std Libelle,
>Open Cirrus, ASW-15, H301, etc. seem to all qualify.
>Vne 120kts or less, under 1320lbs meets the requirements.
>The Vne seems to be the discriminator.

[Wayne Paul]

Glider can have retractable gear. See slide 8 on the following link:
http://afs600.faa.gov/documents/PDF/Sport%20Pilot%20Program%20Overview.pdf

Wayne
http://www.soaridaho.com/


" > wrote in message
...
> Only the fixed gear ones. The rest would have to be fitted with floats.



>
> >The SGS 2-33, SZD 50-3, SGS 1-34, SGS 1-26, Std Libelle,
> >Open Cirrus, ASW-15, H301, etc. seem to all qualify.
> >Vne 120kts or less, under 1320lbs meets the requirements.
> >The Vne seems to be the discriminator.
>
>

[COLIN LAMB]

"Well, one of the points was that certification as a glider means no
medical. My point was that certification as an Airplane-LSA
also means no medical."

As of this date, that is misleading. If you have been denied a medical by
the FAA, you cannot be certified under the LSA rules. This is a gaping hole
in the present rules that may be changed someday.

So, if you are a pilot with a medical and your medical was revoked, you are
limited to flying a glider and cannot fly an LSA - unless you go back to the
FAA and get a waiver or get your medical back. This is a case of the FAA
being worried about getting sued. It also means that if something happens
that causes you to believe that you will not get your medical, do not take a
FAA flight exam and do not tell the FAA. Let it lapse and then you can get
a LSA.

Colin N12HS





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[BeaglePig]

" > wrote in news:10pfmmr7ffv7l23
@corp.supernews.com:

> Only the fixed gear ones. The rest would have to be fitted with floats.
>
>>The SGS 2-33, SZD 50-3, SGS 1-34, SGS 1-26, Std Libelle,
>>Open Cirrus, ASW-15, H301, etc. seem to all qualify.
>>Vne 120kts or less, under 1320lbs meets the requirements.
>>The Vne seems to be the discriminator.
>
>

Vne has nothing to do with Sport Pilot Lic or Light Sport Aircraft. The
top end speed limiter is the speed at "maximum continous power" at sea
level.

BeaglePig

[Mark James Boyd]

Section 1.1

Light-sport aircraft means an aircraft, other than a helicopter or
powered-lift that, since its original certification, has continued to
meet the following:

(1) A maximum takeoff weight of not more than--
(ii) 1,320 pounds (600 kilograms) for aircraft not intended for
operation on water...

(3) A maximum never-exceed speed (Vne) of not more than
120 knots CAS for a glider.

Perhaps BeaglePig was quoting:

(2) A maximum airspeed in level flight with maximum continuous
power (Vh) of not more than 120 knots CAS under standard atmospheric
conditions at sea level.

which does apply to LSA other than gliders...

Unfortunately the synopses of LSA and SP put out by EAA and others,
as well as even the summarized FAA brochure, omit the special glider
Vne LSA definition, so it is easy to become misled...

Bruce Hoult > wrote:
> BeaglePig > wrote:
>>
>> Vne has nothing to do with Sport Pilot Lic or Light Sport Aircraft. The
>> top end speed limiter is the speed at "maximum continous power" at sea
>> level.
>
>Which is 0 knots for any pure glider.
--

------------+
Mark J. Boyd

[Bruce Hoult]

In article >,
BeaglePig > wrote:

> " > wrote in news:10pfmmr7ffv7l23
> @corp.supernews.com:
>
> > Only the fixed gear ones. The rest would have to be fitted with floats.
> >
> >>The SGS 2-33, SZD 50-3, SGS 1-34, SGS 1-26, Std Libelle,
> >>Open Cirrus, ASW-15, H301, etc. seem to all qualify.
> >>Vne 120kts or less, under 1320lbs meets the requirements.
> >>The Vne seems to be the discriminator.
> >
> >
>
> Vne has nothing to do with Sport Pilot Lic or Light Sport Aircraft. The
> top end speed limiter is the speed at "maximum continous power" at sea
> level.

Which is 0 knots for any pure glider.

--
Bruce | 41.1670S | \ spoken | -+-
Hoult | 174.8263E | /\ here. | ----------O----------

[Mark James Boyd]

COLIN LAMB > wrote:
>"Well, one of the points was that certification as a glider means no
>medical. My point was that certification as an Airplane-LSA
>also means no medical."
>
>As of this date, that is misleading. If you have been denied a medical by
>the FAA, you cannot be certified under the LSA rules. This is a gaping hole
>in the present rules that may be changed someday.
>
>So, if you are a pilot with a medical and your medical was revoked, you are
>limited to flying a glider and cannot fly an LSA - unless you go back to the
>FAA and get a waiver or get your medical back. This is a case of the FAA
>being worried about getting sued. It also means that if something happens
>that causes you to believe that you will not get your medical, do not take a
>FAA flight exam and do not tell the FAA. Let it lapse and then you can get
>a LSA.

The "previously denied a medical" part of Sport Pilot is quite a bone
in the craw of EAA. I suspect it will be resolved soon. As I don't know
how many glider pilots fly gliders specifically because they have failed
an official FAA medical, I can't speak to whether this is a worthy
subject or a very minor footnote of the rule...
--

------------+
Mark J. Boyd

[BeaglePig]

(Mark James Boyd) wrote in
news:419843f4$1@darkstar:

> Section 1.1
>
> Light-sport aircraft means an aircraft, other than a helicopter or
> powered-lift that, since its original certification, has continued to
> meet the following:
>
> (1) A maximum takeoff weight of not more than--
> (ii) 1,320 pounds (600 kilograms) for aircraft not intended for
> operation on water...
>
> (3) A maximum never-exceed speed (Vne) of not more than
> 120 knots CAS for a glider.
>
> Perhaps BeaglePig was quoting:
>
> (2) A maximum airspeed in level flight with maximum continuous
> power (Vh) of not more than 120 knots CAS under standard atmospheric
> conditions at sea level.
>
> which does apply to LSA other than gliders...
>
> Unfortunately the synopses of LSA and SP put out by EAA and others,
> as well as even the summarized FAA brochure, omit the special glider
> Vne LSA definition, so it is easy to become misled...
>

> --
>
> ------------+
> Mark J. Boyd
>

You're right, I had no idea of the differing requirement for Sport Pilot
gliders.

IMHO, there is no reason to get a "sport pilot" lic for gliders or
motorgliders. There is absolutely NOTHING gained, and much lost. A
regular glider licence has no night flight restrictions, no altitude
restriction, and most importantly, if you happen to loose your Drivers
License, even for something not related to your health, you can still
fly.

I'm a big proponent of Sport Pilot, and even of S-LSA or E-LSA gliders,
but for someone to choose to get a Sport Pilot-glider lic. would be
foolish (you can still fly LSA gliders with a reg glider lic)

BeaglePig

[Mark James Boyd]

BeaglePig > wrote:
>
>IMHO, there is no reason to get a "sport pilot" lic for gliders or
>motorgliders. There is absolutely NOTHING gained, and much lost.

Absolutely true in terms of initial license. I don't expect anyone
to choose as their first license to get a glider-SP license.

However, for transition pilots, either from ultralights
or Airplane Single Engine Land, this is a large improvement.

>A
>regular glider licence has no night flight restrictions, no altitude
>restriction, and most importantly, if you happen to loose your Drivers
>License, even for something not related to your health, you can still
>fly.

Another interesting point is that 61.31(d)(2) solo of transition
ASEL pilots to gliders also has no restrictions. This is why in
my writings about SP I focus almost exclusively on 2-place
LSA and SP. The passenger carrying in a new cat/class with NO
additional check ride is the key. And pipistrel seems to be counting on
this, since their Sinus and Virus motorgliders require but
the stroke of a pen by two CFIs to make an ASEL into a glider-SP.

>
>I'm a big proponent of Sport Pilot, and even of S-LSA or E-LSA gliders,
>but for someone to choose to get a Sport Pilot-glider lic. would be
>foolish (you can still fly LSA gliders with a reg glider lic)

Again, this is very true. We're just talking about transition
pilots in two-seat gliders. The rest of the SP rule doesn't seem
to have much value where gliders are concerned...
--

------------+
Mark J. Boyd

[Robert Ehrlich]

Mark James Boyd wrote:
>
> "I've never met an ASEL pilot who couldn't safely fly a glider
> in all the other (PTS) areas by the time he had learned to safely aerotow"
> ... [big snip] ...

In the sense you developped below, it is certainly true, but would be equally
true if you deleted the word "ASEL".