When has it Been too Long before you solo [Archive]

JustMe

November 15th 04, 11:29 PM

As a society, we are obsessed with Numbers. We use them to compare
ourselves to others. I make X number of dollars, I have house of Y
square feet. My car, truck or other vehicle has an engine of W liter
(cubic inches for the metrically challenged).

As such, when someone asks "What is the average hours before
soloing?", they are trying to compare themselves to the 'average'
pilot. If they do it in less than the average, then it's 'look at me,
I'm great'. If they do it in the 'average' amount of time, then they
are doing OK. But, when their number of hours is greater than the
average, they may feel that something is wrong with them. "Am I
stupid?". "Am I slow?". "Should I quit now?".

I unfortunately find myself in the latter category... 47.7 hours and
no solo yet. Only two issues remain: simulated instrument flight and
landings.

With simulated instrument flight, I can do straight and level and
turns. But when combined with climbs and or descents, I don't meet the
PTS requirements. Either I blow the altitude or the heading. Take the
hood off and I can climb, turn, fiddle with the radio and look for
traffic (while chewing gum) without blowing headings or altitudes.

Landings. I fly out of LGB (Long Beach) and LGB is cursed with
WIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIDE runways. I say cursed, since
when we fly to CMP (Compton) or TOA (Torrance), I have no problem
staying on the runway center-line. But at LGB I can track the
center-line up to the flare, after the flare at touchdown I'm off the
centerline. Am I in the weeds? No. I'm usually 20-30 feet left or
right of the centerline.

Am I stupid? I don't think so. I studied Chemical Engineering and
Computer Science in college and I work as a Software Architect for
manufacturer of large transport category airplanes. Before someone
concludes that I'm a bookworm, I've renovated two houses mostly on my
own. When I say renovate, I mean gutting most of space down to the
framing and bringing the space back to code.

Am I slow? I read slowly, but otherwise see above.

I don't think it's the instructor. He is not someone who is teaching
just to build time and then move on to bigger airplanes. The only
comment I could make and I suspect that it would apply to many
instructors, is that he points too many things out. Yes, I know I blew
the altitude or the heading, pointing it out each time can get really
old, really fast. A suggestion for CFIs, sometimes it's better to wait
until the maneuver is completed before saying something. Of course, if
it's a safety of flight issue, then by all means say something.

At the school where I am learning, the instructor grades your
performance after each flight on a scale from 1 to 5. Where 1 is
deemed excellent and 5 is considered unsatisfactory. With 3 being
average. Reviewing my training records, I haven't scored greater than
a 3 since lesson number 13. From lesson 14 through lesson 33, I've
scored average to excellent.

Should I quit now? That is what I'm pondering. 47.7 hours and still no
solo.

Constructive suggestions or criticisms welcomed. Please refrain from
only saying 'don't give up'.

Bob Moore

November 15th 04, 11:55 PM

(JustMe) wrote

> I unfortunately find myself in the latter category... 47.7 hours and
> no solo yet. Only two issues remain: simulated instrument flight and
> landings.
>
> With simulated instrument flight, I can do straight and level and
> turns. But when combined with climbs and or descents, I don't meet the
> PTS requirements. Either I blow the altitude or the heading. Take the
> hood off and I can climb, turn, fiddle with the radio and look for
> traffic (while chewing gum) without blowing headings or altitudes.

WHAT!!!!!!! Are you doing instrument training before solo? WHY????
Fire your instructor immediately!!! Show him this message. I have
solo'ed nit-wits in less than 20 hours.

Bob Moore
ATP CFI
PanAm (retired)

Peter Duniho

November 16th 04, 12:13 AM

"JustMe" > wrote in message
om...
> [...]
> Should I quit now? That is what I'm pondering. 47.7 hours and still no
> solo.

I agree with Bob, at least in fact if not tone. Just from your message, it
sure sounds like the standards your instructor is expecting from you before
solo are just too high. A solo student needs to be able to safely operate
the airplane in the expected environment. A solo student does NOT need to
be good enough to pass the checkride. If he were, an instructor would just
send him off for his checkride.

In addition, it sounds to me as though you've got a pretty good intuition of
other problems with your instructor. Pointing out where you screw up is
sometimes exactly what a student needs, but most of the time what an
instructor needs to do is explain WHY you screwed up and HOW you can fix it.
There's nothing more frustrating to a student than knowing you blew a
maneuver or didn't hold a heading or altitude or something, and then to only
be told what you already know, rather than how to avoid doing the same thing
in the future.

Well, nothing more frustrating except possible an instructor who holds you
back.

Anyway, you gotta get yourself a flight with a different instructor.
Preferably several flights, and maybe even with several different
instructors. You have been flying enough now that you will probably quickly
pick up on differences in instructional techniques, and will find at least
one instructor that you "mesh" with far better than the one you've got now.

Pete

Dave S

November 16th 04, 02:03 AM

JustMe wrote:
(snip)
> I unfortunately find myself in the latter category... 47.7 hours and
> no solo yet. Only two issues remain: simulated instrument flight and
> landings.
>
> With simulated instrument flight, (snip)

Proficiency in simulated instrument flight is not a requirement to be
able to solo at the private pilot level. The goal of simulated
instrument instruction is to empower a non-instrument rated pilot to be
able to safely make a 180 degree turn out of instrument conditions that
are inadverdently encountered (what was cloud clearance again????).. or
to hopefully allow you to descend through an overcast you have become
stranded above (again.. plan properly, stay abreast of conditions and
you should never need this EMERGENCY procedure). Your instructor should
set strict enough "solo limits" that should prevent you from
inadverdently encountering instrument conditions.

> Landings. (snip)

If you can safely take the plane around the pattern on your own without
breaking it, yourself or another other objects, then you should be near
the point you can be solo'd in the pattern.

If you can get from point a to point b without being corrected by the
instructor, you may even be ready for solo flights between airports.
>
> I don't think it's the instructor.

It MAY be your instructor.
>
(snip)
>
> Constructive suggestions or criticisms welcomed. Please refrain from
> only saying 'don't give up'.

Ask to fly with another instructor or with the chief flight instructor
for a second opinion. This is a perfectly valid approach to take. If you
dont feel that the staff at THAT school can give you an honest second
opinion, go find a freelance instructor or another school. It would be
PREFERABLE to take this "second opinion" ride in the same type of
aircraft you have been training in.. less to "learn" while demonstrating
your stuff.

Granted, only your side of the situation has been presented here.
Something appears amiss. The instructor works for you.. that doesnt mean
that he should "sway" or "bend" his principles and standards because you
are handing over money.. what it DOES mean is that as the consumer you
have the right to get your money's worth of training and experience, and
the right to take your self and your $$ elsewhere if you dont feel you
are getting value. Talk to the current instructor. Get the
"deficiencies" listed, in writing. Find out what he/she's thinking.
Shop around. If two or three instructors from different schools ( after
a few hours with you) all feel that you arent able to solo safely (or
progress to completion of your PPL) then maybe flying isnt your best
choice for a hobby.

Dave
Not a flight instructor, just a pilot.

Wizard of Draws

November 16th 04, 02:04 AM

On 11/15/04 6:29 PM, in article
, "JustMe"
> wrote:

> As a society, we are obsessed with Numbers. We use them to compare
> ourselves to others. I make X number of dollars, I have house of Y
> square feet. My car, truck or other vehicle has an engine of W liter
> (cubic inches for the metrically challenged).
>
> As such, when someone asks "What is the average hours before
> soloing?", they are trying to compare themselves to the 'average'
> pilot. If they do it in less than the average, then it's 'look at me,
> I'm great'. If they do it in the 'average' amount of time, then they
> are doing OK. But, when their number of hours is greater than the
> average, they may feel that something is wrong with them. "Am I
> stupid?". "Am I slow?". "Should I quit now?".
>
> I unfortunately find myself in the latter category... 47.7 hours and
> no solo yet. Only two issues remain: simulated instrument flight and
> landings.
>
> With simulated instrument flight, I can do straight and level and
> turns. But when combined with climbs and or descents, I don't meet the
> PTS requirements. Either I blow the altitude or the heading. Take the
> hood off and I can climb, turn, fiddle with the radio and look for
> traffic (while chewing gum) without blowing headings or altitudes.
>
> Landings. I fly out of LGB (Long Beach) and LGB is cursed with
> WIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIDE runways. I say cursed, since
> when we fly to CMP (Compton) or TOA (Torrance), I have no problem
> staying on the runway center-line. But at LGB I can track the
> center-line up to the flare, after the flare at touchdown I'm off the
> centerline. Am I in the weeds? No. I'm usually 20-30 feet left or
> right of the centerline.
>
> Am I stupid? I don't think so. I studied Chemical Engineering and
> Computer Science in college and I work as a Software Architect for
> manufacturer of large transport category airplanes. Before someone
> concludes that I'm a bookworm, I've renovated two houses mostly on my
> own. When I say renovate, I mean gutting most of space down to the
> framing and bringing the space back to code.
>
> Am I slow? I read slowly, but otherwise see above.
>
> I don't think it's the instructor. He is not someone who is teaching
> just to build time and then move on to bigger airplanes. The only
> comment I could make and I suspect that it would apply to many
> instructors, is that he points too many things out. Yes, I know I blew
> the altitude or the heading, pointing it out each time can get really
> old, really fast. A suggestion for CFIs, sometimes it's better to wait
> until the maneuver is completed before saying something. Of course, if
> it's a safety of flight issue, then by all means say something.
>
> At the school where I am learning, the instructor grades your
> performance after each flight on a scale from 1 to 5. Where 1 is
> deemed excellent and 5 is considered unsatisfactory. With 3 being
> average. Reviewing my training records, I haven't scored greater than
> a 3 since lesson number 13. From lesson 14 through lesson 33, I've
> scored average to excellent.
>
> Should I quit now? That is what I'm pondering. 47.7 hours and still no
> solo.
>
> Constructive suggestions or criticisms welcomed. Please refrain from
> only saying 'don't give up'.

If I soloed only after I was able to consistently land on the centerline,
I'd still be riding dual after 265 hours and my instrument ticket in hand.

I say you need to fire your CFI and find one that's confident enough with
his teaching skills to let you solo. Your last 19 flights are average or
better? What do they want at this point? Chuck Yeager?

If you can fly the pattern and land without your CFI being required to touch
the controls for reasons of immediate safety, I'd say you should be solo.
--
Jeff 'The Wizard of Draws' Bucchino
Cartoons with a Touch of Magic
http://www.wizardofdraws.com
http://www.cartoonclipart.com

Bob Gardner

November 16th 04, 02:56 AM

You should have a copy of the regulations...read 61.87 "Solo Requirements
for Student Pilots." Then give serious consideration to changing
instructors...this guy is bleeding you.

Bob Gardner

"JustMe" > wrote in message
om...
> As a society, we are obsessed with Numbers. We use them to compare
> ourselves to others. I make X number of dollars, I have house of Y
> square feet. My car, truck or other vehicle has an engine of W liter
> (cubic inches for the metrically challenged).
>
> As such, when someone asks "What is the average hours before
> soloing?", they are trying to compare themselves to the 'average'
> pilot. If they do it in less than the average, then it's 'look at me,
> I'm great'. If they do it in the 'average' amount of time, then they
> are doing OK. But, when their number of hours is greater than the
> average, they may feel that something is wrong with them. "Am I
> stupid?". "Am I slow?". "Should I quit now?".
>
> I unfortunately find myself in the latter category... 47.7 hours and
> no solo yet. Only two issues remain: simulated instrument flight and
> landings.
>
> With simulated instrument flight, I can do straight and level and
> turns. But when combined with climbs and or descents, I don't meet the
> PTS requirements. Either I blow the altitude or the heading. Take the
> hood off and I can climb, turn, fiddle with the radio and look for
> traffic (while chewing gum) without blowing headings or altitudes.
>
> Landings. I fly out of LGB (Long Beach) and LGB is cursed with
> WIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIDE runways. I say cursed, since
> when we fly to CMP (Compton) or TOA (Torrance), I have no problem
> staying on the runway center-line. But at LGB I can track the
> center-line up to the flare, after the flare at touchdown I'm off the
> centerline. Am I in the weeds? No. I'm usually 20-30 feet left or
> right of the centerline.
>
> Am I stupid? I don't think so. I studied Chemical Engineering and
> Computer Science in college and I work as a Software Architect for
> manufacturer of large transport category airplanes. Before someone
> concludes that I'm a bookworm, I've renovated two houses mostly on my
> own. When I say renovate, I mean gutting most of space down to the
> framing and bringing the space back to code.
>
> Am I slow? I read slowly, but otherwise see above.
>
> I don't think it's the instructor. He is not someone who is teaching
> just to build time and then move on to bigger airplanes. The only
> comment I could make and I suspect that it would apply to many
> instructors, is that he points too many things out. Yes, I know I blew
> the altitude or the heading, pointing it out each time can get really
> old, really fast. A suggestion for CFIs, sometimes it's better to wait
> until the maneuver is completed before saying something. Of course, if
> it's a safety of flight issue, then by all means say something.
>
> At the school where I am learning, the instructor grades your
> performance after each flight on a scale from 1 to 5. Where 1 is
> deemed excellent and 5 is considered unsatisfactory. With 3 being
> average. Reviewing my training records, I haven't scored greater than
> a 3 since lesson number 13. From lesson 14 through lesson 33, I've
> scored average to excellent.
>
> Should I quit now? That is what I'm pondering. 47.7 hours and still no
> solo.
>
> Constructive suggestions or criticisms welcomed. Please refrain from
> only saying 'don't give up'.

Robert Bates

November 16th 04, 03:02 AM

Read FAR part 61 as it pertains to Solo and then take a look at another
instructor. I think everyone would agree, it's good to fly with a few
different instructors in your training as you'll learn different things from
each one.

"Wizard of Draws" > wrote in
message news:BDBECA49.33C08%jeffbTAKEOUTCAPS@TAKEOUTCAPSwi zardofdraws.com...
> On 11/15/04 6:29 PM, in article
> , "JustMe"
> > wrote:
>
> > As a society, we are obsessed with Numbers. We use them to compare
> > ourselves to others. I make X number of dollars, I have house of Y
> > square feet. My car, truck or other vehicle has an engine of W liter
> > (cubic inches for the metrically challenged).
> >
> > As such, when someone asks "What is the average hours before
> > soloing?", they are trying to compare themselves to the 'average'
> > pilot. If they do it in less than the average, then it's 'look at me,
> > I'm great'. If they do it in the 'average' amount of time, then they
> > are doing OK. But, when their number of hours is greater than the
> > average, they may feel that something is wrong with them. "Am I
> > stupid?". "Am I slow?". "Should I quit now?".
> >
> > I unfortunately find myself in the latter category... 47.7 hours and
> > no solo yet. Only two issues remain: simulated instrument flight and
> > landings.
> >
> > With simulated instrument flight, I can do straight and level and
> > turns. But when combined with climbs and or descents, I don't meet the
> > PTS requirements. Either I blow the altitude or the heading. Take the
> > hood off and I can climb, turn, fiddle with the radio and look for
> > traffic (while chewing gum) without blowing headings or altitudes.
> >
> > Landings. I fly out of LGB (Long Beach) and LGB is cursed with
> > WIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIDE runways. I say cursed, since
> > when we fly to CMP (Compton) or TOA (Torrance), I have no problem
> > staying on the runway center-line. But at LGB I can track the
> > center-line up to the flare, after the flare at touchdown I'm off the
> > centerline. Am I in the weeds? No. I'm usually 20-30 feet left or
> > right of the centerline.
> >
> > Am I stupid? I don't think so. I studied Chemical Engineering and
> > Computer Science in college and I work as a Software Architect for
> > manufacturer of large transport category airplanes. Before someone
> > concludes that I'm a bookworm, I've renovated two houses mostly on my
> > own. When I say renovate, I mean gutting most of space down to the
> > framing and bringing the space back to code.
> >
> > Am I slow? I read slowly, but otherwise see above.
> >
> > I don't think it's the instructor. He is not someone who is teaching
> > just to build time and then move on to bigger airplanes. The only
> > comment I could make and I suspect that it would apply to many
> > instructors, is that he points too many things out. Yes, I know I blew
> > the altitude or the heading, pointing it out each time can get really
> > old, really fast. A suggestion for CFIs, sometimes it's better to wait
> > until the maneuver is completed before saying something. Of course, if
> > it's a safety of flight issue, then by all means say something.
> >
> > At the school where I am learning, the instructor grades your
> > performance after each flight on a scale from 1 to 5. Where 1 is
> > deemed excellent and 5 is considered unsatisfactory. With 3 being
> > average. Reviewing my training records, I haven't scored greater than
> > a 3 since lesson number 13. From lesson 14 through lesson 33, I've
> > scored average to excellent.
> >
> > Should I quit now? That is what I'm pondering. 47.7 hours and still no
> > solo.
> >
> > Constructive suggestions or criticisms welcomed. Please refrain from
> > only saying 'don't give up'.
>
> If I soloed only after I was able to consistently land on the centerline,
> I'd still be riding dual after 265 hours and my instrument ticket in hand.
>
> I say you need to fire your CFI and find one that's confident enough with
> his teaching skills to let you solo. Your last 19 flights are average or
> better? What do they want at this point? Chuck Yeager?
>
> If you can fly the pattern and land without your CFI being required to
touch
> the controls for reasons of immediate safety, I'd say you should be solo.
> --
> Jeff 'The Wizard of Draws' Bucchino
> Cartoons with a Touch of Magic
> http://www.wizardofdraws.com
> http://www.cartoonclipart.com
>

Nathan Young

November 16th 04, 03:07 AM

On 15 Nov 2004 15:29:15 -0800, (JustMe) wrote:

>At the school where I am learning, the instructor grades your
>performance after each flight on a scale from 1 to 5. Where 1 is
>deemed excellent and 5 is considered unsatisfactory. With 3 being
>average. Reviewing my training records, I haven't scored greater than
>a 3 since lesson number 13. From lesson 14 through lesson 33, I've
>scored average to excellent.
>
>Should I quit now? That is what I'm pondering. 47.7 hours and still no
>solo.

First off, I'd say never quit. If you want to fly, keep working at
it, and eventually the landings will make sense. 47.7 is hardly any
time at in the grand scheme of things.

How long has it taken you (calendar-wise) to get the 47.7 hrs? I
think it is best to fly 3-4 times per week for about 1.5 hrs each go.
Kind of a balance between immersion and saturation.

As others pointed out - it seems your instructor may be asking too
much before letting you go solo. Has he/she taken the time to explain
why you haven't solo'd yet? You implied it was due to simulated
instrument time and crosswind technique, but has the instructor
clearly spelled that out? Is there a plan on the table for overcoming
the deficiencies?

This might be a good time for some self-reflection. Do you feel you
could handle the plane by yourself around the pattern? When you do
pattern work does the instructor have to take over the controls, or
are you doing the work by yourself? Even if the instructor is taking
over - it isn't that bad - as an instructor who is not willing to cut
you loose for solo after 47 hrs, is probably the type to steal the
controls from you on every landing.

If I were you, I would talk to the chief pilot at your FBO and explain
the situation. Ask if you might ride with him/her or another
instructor for an evaluation and suggestions on how to fix it. It
probably would be an even better idea to do this at a different FBO.
That way you would have multiple independent assessments of your
abilities.

-Nathan

BTIZ

November 16th 04, 04:02 AM

you don't have to meet Private PTS to solo... you have to be safe..

BT

"JustMe" > wrote in message
om...
> As a society, we are obsessed with Numbers. We use them to compare
> ourselves to others. I make X number of dollars, I have house of Y
> square feet. My car, truck or other vehicle has an engine of W liter
> (cubic inches for the metrically challenged).
>
> As such, when someone asks "What is the average hours before
> soloing?", they are trying to compare themselves to the 'average'
> pilot. If they do it in less than the average, then it's 'look at me,
> I'm great'. If they do it in the 'average' amount of time, then they
> are doing OK. But, when their number of hours is greater than the
> average, they may feel that something is wrong with them. "Am I
> stupid?". "Am I slow?". "Should I quit now?".
>
> I unfortunately find myself in the latter category... 47.7 hours and
> no solo yet. Only two issues remain: simulated instrument flight and
> landings.
>
> With simulated instrument flight, I can do straight and level and
> turns. But when combined with climbs and or descents, I don't meet the
> PTS requirements. Either I blow the altitude or the heading. Take the
> hood off and I can climb, turn, fiddle with the radio and look for
> traffic (while chewing gum) without blowing headings or altitudes.
>
> Landings. I fly out of LGB (Long Beach) and LGB is cursed with
> WIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIDE runways. I say cursed, since
> when we fly to CMP (Compton) or TOA (Torrance), I have no problem
> staying on the runway center-line. But at LGB I can track the
> center-line up to the flare, after the flare at touchdown I'm off the
> centerline. Am I in the weeds? No. I'm usually 20-30 feet left or
> right of the centerline.
>
> Am I stupid? I don't think so. I studied Chemical Engineering and
> Computer Science in college and I work as a Software Architect for
> manufacturer of large transport category airplanes. Before someone
> concludes that I'm a bookworm, I've renovated two houses mostly on my
> own. When I say renovate, I mean gutting most of space down to the
> framing and bringing the space back to code.
>
> Am I slow? I read slowly, but otherwise see above.
>
> I don't think it's the instructor. He is not someone who is teaching
> just to build time and then move on to bigger airplanes. The only
> comment I could make and I suspect that it would apply to many
> instructors, is that he points too many things out. Yes, I know I blew
> the altitude or the heading, pointing it out each time can get really
> old, really fast. A suggestion for CFIs, sometimes it's better to wait
> until the maneuver is completed before saying something. Of course, if
> it's a safety of flight issue, then by all means say something.
>
> At the school where I am learning, the instructor grades your
> performance after each flight on a scale from 1 to 5. Where 1 is
> deemed excellent and 5 is considered unsatisfactory. With 3 being
> average. Reviewing my training records, I haven't scored greater than
> a 3 since lesson number 13. From lesson 14 through lesson 33, I've
> scored average to excellent.
>
> Should I quit now? That is what I'm pondering. 47.7 hours and still no
> solo.
>
> Constructive suggestions or criticisms welcomed. Please refrain from
> only saying 'don't give up'.

Dave Stadt

November 16th 04, 04:44 AM

"JustMe" > wrote in message
om...
> As a society, we are obsessed with Numbers. We use them to compare
> ourselves to others. I make X number of dollars, I have house of Y
> square feet. My car, truck or other vehicle has an engine of W liter
> (cubic inches for the metrically challenged).
>
> As such, when someone asks "What is the average hours before
> soloing?", they are trying to compare themselves to the 'average'
> pilot. If they do it in less than the average, then it's 'look at me,
> I'm great'. If they do it in the 'average' amount of time, then they
> are doing OK. But, when their number of hours is greater than the
> average, they may feel that something is wrong with them. "Am I
> stupid?". "Am I slow?". "Should I quit now?".
>
> I unfortunately find myself in the latter category... 47.7 hours and
> no solo yet. Only two issues remain: simulated instrument flight and
> landings.
>
> With simulated instrument flight, I can do straight and level and
> turns. But when combined with climbs and or descents, I don't meet the
> PTS requirements. Either I blow the altitude or the heading. Take the
> hood off and I can climb, turn, fiddle with the radio and look for
> traffic (while chewing gum) without blowing headings or altitudes.
>
> Landings. I fly out of LGB (Long Beach) and LGB is cursed with
> WIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIDE runways. I say cursed, since
> when we fly to CMP (Compton) or TOA (Torrance), I have no problem
> staying on the runway center-line. But at LGB I can track the
> center-line up to the flare, after the flare at touchdown I'm off the
> centerline. Am I in the weeds? No. I'm usually 20-30 feet left or
> right of the centerline.
>
> Am I stupid? I don't think so. I studied Chemical Engineering and
> Computer Science in college and I work as a Software Architect for
> manufacturer of large transport category airplanes. Before someone
> concludes that I'm a bookworm, I've renovated two houses mostly on my
> own. When I say renovate, I mean gutting most of space down to the
> framing and bringing the space back to code.
>
> Am I slow? I read slowly, but otherwise see above.
>
> I don't think it's the instructor. He is not someone who is teaching
> just to build time and then move on to bigger airplanes. The only
> comment I could make and I suspect that it would apply to many
> instructors, is that he points too many things out. Yes, I know I blew
> the altitude or the heading, pointing it out each time can get really
> old, really fast. A suggestion for CFIs, sometimes it's better to wait
> until the maneuver is completed before saying something. Of course, if
> it's a safety of flight issue, then by all means say something.
>
> At the school where I am learning, the instructor grades your
> performance after each flight on a scale from 1 to 5. Where 1 is
> deemed excellent and 5 is considered unsatisfactory. With 3 being
> average. Reviewing my training records, I haven't scored greater than
> a 3 since lesson number 13. From lesson 14 through lesson 33, I've
> scored average to excellent.
>
> Should I quit now? That is what I'm pondering. 47.7 hours and still no
> solo.
>
> Constructive suggestions or criticisms welcomed. Please refrain from
> only saying 'don't give up'.

Sounds like your instructor has a new Mercedes he needs to make payments on.
He either has no confidence in his teaching ability or is milking you.

Blanche

November 16th 04, 04:55 AM

JustMe > wrote:

[snip]

>I unfortunately find myself in the latter category... 47.7 hours and
>no solo yet. Only two issues remain: simulated instrument flight and
>landings.

So what? Are you in a race with someone? The only downside of
this many hours is the money. That's all. And in a year or so,
(assuming you still have a job) you probably won't even remember it.

>Should I quit now? That is what I'm pondering. 47.7 hours and still no
>solo.

Again I ask, so what?

JustMe

November 16th 04, 05:18 AM

Bob Moore > wrote in message >...
> (JustMe) wrote
>
> > I unfortunately find myself in the latter category... 47.7 hours and
> > no solo yet. Only two issues remain: simulated instrument flight and
> > landings.
> >
> > With simulated instrument flight, I can do straight and level and
> > turns. But when combined with climbs and or descents, I don't meet the
> > PTS requirements. Either I blow the altitude or the heading. Take the
> > hood off and I can climb, turn, fiddle with the radio and look for
> > traffic (while chewing gum) without blowing headings or altitudes.
>
> WHAT!!!!!!! Are you doing instrument training before solo? WHY????
> Fire your instructor immediately!!! Show him this message. I have
> solo'ed nit-wits in less than 20 hours.
>
> Bob Moore
> ATP CFI
> PanAm (retired)

Bob,

Thanks for the reply.

Yes, I am doing hood work before solo. To be fair, the school where
I'm training has a Pre Solo Stage Check requirement. The stage check
is performed by a Designated Check Airman and not the instructor of
record.

I hesitated posting the contents of the Pre Solo Stage Check, since it
is long, but I'll do so now. The stage check last about two hours and
consists of a ground portion (basic knowledge) and a practical portion
(flight maneuvers).

The ground portion covers the following topic:

- Aerodynamics
- Aircraft Systems (Fuel and Electrical)
- FAR part 91 and 61 (certificates and documents)
- Performance and Limitations
- Class B airspace Requirements
- ATC Procedures and Light Gun
- Weather Briefing
- Runway Markings
- Weight and Balance
- Emergency Checklists
- Spin Awareness
- Land and Hold Short (students just say No!)
- Weight Turbulence Avoidance
- Intercept Procedures

The practical portions includes the following maneuvers:

- Pre-flight Inspection
- Starting Engine
- Taxing ( Communications, Normal and Crosswind Taxiing)
- Pre-takeoff Checklist
- Takeoff (Normal and Crosswind)
- Climb Out
- Descents
- Collision Avoidance
- Straight and Level
- Turns
- Steep Turns
- Ground Reference Maneuvers (S -Turns, Turns Around a Point,
Rectangular Course)
- Instrument Procedures
- Minimum Controllable Airspeed and Slow Flight
- Stalls (Departure, Approach and Accelerated)

Turning Page over

- Emergency Procedures ( Engine Failure, Engine Fire, Electrical Fire,
Emergency Descent, Emergency Approach and Landing, Radio Failure and
Open Door In-Flight)
- Landings (Normal, Crosswind, Pattern Work and Go Arounds)
- Securing and Shutdown.

The completion standards are:

- Altitude plus/minus 150 feet
- Headings plus/minus 15 degrees
- Airspeed plus/minus 5 knots.

Given that I don't have something to compare against, I can't tell if
this level of proficiency before solo is excessive. Do other schools
have the same requirements?

Seeing that Instrument Procedures are a requirement, do you have any
tips, tricks or magic incantation that I can perform so that I won't
be chasing the attitude indicator and heading DG all-over the sky?

Cub Driver

November 16th 04, 11:30 AM

>I unfortunately find myself in the latter category... 47.7 hours and
>no solo yet. Only two issues remain: simulated instrument flight and
>landings.

I soloed at 48 hours, without taking any time on instrument flight.

If you are having fun, keep at it. Personally, I think the training
was the most enjoyable part of flying.

all the best -- Dan Ford
email: (put Cubdriver in subject line)

Warbird's Forum www.warbirdforum.com
Piper Cub Forum www.pipercubforum.com
the blog www.danford.net

Nathan Young

November 16th 04, 01:16 PM

On 15 Nov 2004 21:18:12 -0800, (JustMe) wrote:

>Seeing that Instrument Procedures are a requirement, do you have
any
>tips, tricks or magic incantation that I can perform so that I won't
>be chasing the attitude indicator and heading DG all-over the sky?

Make sure the plane is in perfect trim, and then relax.

Most entry level planes will stay straight and level for 10+ seconds
when trimmed correctly. Because of this, they do not require constant
control corrections. The mistake most new IFR pilots make is to
overcontrol the plane.

-Nathan

Bob Moore

November 16th 04, 01:27 PM

(JustMe) wrote

> Seeing that Instrument Procedures are a requirement, do you have any
> tips, tricks or magic incantation that I can perform so that I won't
> be chasing the attitude indicator and heading DG all-over the sky?

The school is all screwed-up. Private Pilots don't begin by flying
by instruments. I require my students to fly entire sessions both
in and out of the pattern with the instrument panel completely covered.
The attitude indicator is a neat gadget, but is certainly not required
for VFR flying in the traffic pattern. One judges aircraft attitude
by looking at the nose of the aircraft. Altitude, Airspeed, and RPM
are all that you should be using in the traffic pattern, if even that.

From FAR 61.87

(c) Pre-solo flight training. Prior to conducting a solo flight,
a student pilot must have:

(1) Received and logged flight training for the maneuvers and
procedures of this section that are appropriate to the make and
model of aircraft to be flown; and

(2) Demonstrated satisfactory proficiency and safety, as judged
by an authorized instructor, on the maneuvers and procedures
required by this section in the make and model of aircraft or
similar make and model of aircraft to be flown.

(d) Maneuvers and procedures for pre-solo flight training in a
single-engine airplane. A student pilot who is receiving training
for a single-engine airplane rating or privileges must receive
and log flight training for the following maneuvers and procedures:

(1) Proper flight preparation procedures, including preflight
planning and preparation, powerplant operation, and aircraft systems;

(2) Taxiing or surface operations, including runups;

(3) Takeoffs and landings, including normal and crosswind;

(4) Straight and level flight, and turns in both directions;

(5) Climbs and climbing turns;

(6) Airport traffic patterns, including entry and departure
procedures;

(7) Collision avoidance, windshear avoidance, and wake turbulence
avoidance;

(8) Descents, with and without turns, using high and low drag
configurations;

(9) Flight at various airspeeds from cruise to slow flight;

(10) Stall entries from various flight attitudes and power
combinations with recovery initiated at the first indication
of a stall, and recovery from a full stall;

(11) Emergency procedures and equipment malfunctions;

(12) Ground reference maneuvers;

(13) Approaches to a landing area with simulated engine
malfunctions;

(14) Slips to a landing; and

(15) Go-arounds.

Allen

November 16th 04, 02:02 PM

"JustMe" > wrote in message
om...
> As such, when someone asks "What is the average hours before
> soloing?", they are trying to compare themselves to the 'average'
> pilot. If they do it in less than the average, then it's 'look at me,
> I'm great'. If they do it in the 'average' amount of time, then they
> are doing OK. But, when their number of hours is greater than the
> average, they may feel that something is wrong with them. "Am I
> stupid?". "Am I slow?". "Should I quit now?".
>
> I unfortunately find myself in the latter category... 47.7 hours and
> no solo yet. Only two issues remain: simulated instrument flight and
> landings.
>

Well Justme, you need to step out of that FAR 141 flight program and find
another instructor that can concentrate on your landings with you. Get
those down and then go back to the 141 school or just stay with your new
instructor if you like him.

Allen

Corky Scott

November 16th 04, 03:25 PM

On 15 Nov 2004 15:29:15 -0800, (JustMe) wrote:

>As such, when someone asks "What is the average hours before
>soloing?", they are trying to compare themselves to the 'average'
>pilot. If they do it in less than the average, then it's 'look at me,
>I'm great'. If they do it in the 'average' amount of time, then they
>are doing OK. But, when their number of hours is greater than the
>average, they may feel that something is wrong with them. "Am I
>stupid?". "Am I slow?". "Should I quit now?".
>
>I unfortunately find myself in the latter category... 47.7 hours and
>no solo yet. Only two issues remain: simulated instrument flight and
>landings.
>
>With simulated instrument flight, I can do straight and level and
>turns. But when combined with climbs and or descents, I don't meet the
>PTS requirements. Either I blow the altitude or the heading. Take the
>hood off and I can climb, turn, fiddle with the radio and look for
>traffic (while chewing gum) without blowing headings or altitudes.

>Am I stupid? I don't think so. I studied Chemical Engineering and
>Computer Science in college and I work as a Software Architect for
>manufacturer of large transport category airplanes. Before someone
>concludes that I'm a bookworm, I've renovated two houses mostly on my
>own. When I say renovate, I mean gutting most of space down to the
>framing and bringing the space back to code.

Just for the record, being smart and having the hand/eye coordination
that allows you to fly and more importantly, land an airplane are two
different things. However, it sounds like you have the required
coordination.

>Am I slow? I read slowly, but otherwise see above.
>
>I don't think it's the instructor.

Actually, it could be the instructor, see below.

>He is not someone who is teaching
>just to build time and then move on to bigger airplanes. The only
>comment I could make and I suspect that it would apply to many
>instructors, is that he points too many things out. Yes, I know I blew
>the altitude or the heading, pointing it out each time can get really
>old, really fast. A suggestion for CFIs, sometimes it's better to wait
>until the maneuver is completed before saying something. Of course, if
>it's a safety of flight issue, then by all means say something.
>
>At the school where I am learning, the instructor grades your
>performance after each flight on a scale from 1 to 5. Where 1 is
>deemed excellent and 5 is considered unsatisfactory. With 3 being
>average. Reviewing my training records, I haven't scored greater than
>a 3 since lesson number 13. From lesson 14 through lesson 33, I've
>scored average to excellent.
>
>Should I quit now? That is what I'm pondering. 47.7 hours and still no
>solo.

See below JustMe, underhood proficiency is NOT listed in the FAA's
pre-solo requirements.

§ 61.87 Solo requirements for student
pilots.
(a) General. A student pilot may not operate an aircraft in solo
flight unless that student has met the requirements of this section.
The term ‘‘solo flight’’ as used in this subpart means that flight
time during which a student pilot is the sole occupant of the aircraft
or that flight time during which the student performs the duties of a
pilot in command of a gas balloon or an airship requiring more than
one pilot flight crewmember.

(b) Aeronautical knowledge. A student pilot must demonstrate
satisfactory aeronautical knowledge on a knowledge test that meets the
requirements of this paragraph:
(1) The test must address the student pilot’s knowledge of—
(i) Applicable sections of parts 61 and 91 of this chapter;
(ii) Airspace rules and procedures for the airport where the solo
flight will be performed; and
(iii) Flight characteristics and operational limitations for the make
and model of aircraft to be flown.
(2) The student’s authorized instructor must—
(i) Administer the test; and
(ii) At the conclusion of the test, review all incorrect answers with
the student before authorizing that student to conduct a solo flight.

(c)PRE-SOLO FLIGHT TRAINING. PRIOR TO CONDUCTING A SOLO FLIGHT, A
STUDENT MUST HAVE:

(1) Received and logged flight training for the maneuvers and
procedures of this section that are appropriate to the make and model
of aircraft to be flown; and
(2) Demonstrated satisfactory proficiency and safety, as judged by an
authorized instructor, on the maneuvers and procedures required by
this section in the make and model of aircraft or similar make and
model of aircraft to be flown.
(d) Maneuvers and procedures for presolo flight training in a
single-engine airplane. A student pilot who is receiving
training for a single-engine airplane rating must receive and log
flight training for the following maneuvers
and procedures:
(1) Proper flight preparation procedures, including preflight planning
and preparation, powerplant operation, and aircraft systems;
(2) Taxiing or surface operations, including runups;
(3) Takeoffs and landings, including normal and crosswind;
(4) Straight and level flight, and turns in both directions;
(5) Climbs and climbing turns;
(6) Airport traffic patterns, including entry and departure
procedures;
(7) Collision avoidance, windshear avoidance, and wake turbulence
avoidance;
(8) Descents, with and without turns, using high and low drag
configurations;
(9) Flight at various airspeeds from cruise to slow flight;
(10) Stall entries from various flight attitudes and power
combinations with recovery initiated at the first indication
of a stall, and recovery from a full stall;
(11) Emergency procedures and equipment malfunctions;
(12) Ground reference maneuvers;
(13) Approaches to a landing area with simulated engine malfunctions;
(14) Slips to a landing; and
(15) Go-arounds.

Think about it. During a solo, you're going to be flying the pattern.
That's it. You don't need cross country skills, don't need underhood
experience because if the weather is that bad, you don't fly that day.
You only solo when the weather conditions allow it.

If the FAA doesn't require underhood proficiency, why is your
instructor requiring it?

Good luck with this, I'd hate to have been in your shoes and have to
confront my instructor, but it appears you must either do that or just
find someone else.

Corky (I sure didn't have to have underhood experience to solo) Scott

Mike Rapoport

November 16th 04, 03:38 PM

I am not a CFI but I think, based on what you said, that you are ready to
solo. Once a student can perform the tasks required to solo (fly around the
pattern) without the outcome being seriously in doubt, he should be signed
off to solo. Landing dead-center on the runway and instrument flight
shouldn't be required.

Mike
MU-2

"JustMe" > wrote in message
om...
> As a society, we are obsessed with Numbers. We use them to compare
> ourselves to others. I make X number of dollars, I have house of Y
> square feet. My car, truck or other vehicle has an engine of W liter
> (cubic inches for the metrically challenged).
>
> As such, when someone asks "What is the average hours before
> soloing?", they are trying to compare themselves to the 'average'
> pilot. If they do it in less than the average, then it's 'look at me,
> I'm great'. If they do it in the 'average' amount of time, then they
> are doing OK. But, when their number of hours is greater than the
> average, they may feel that something is wrong with them. "Am I
> stupid?". "Am I slow?". "Should I quit now?".
>
> I unfortunately find myself in the latter category... 47.7 hours and
> no solo yet. Only two issues remain: simulated instrument flight and
> landings.
>
> With simulated instrument flight, I can do straight and level and
> turns. But when combined with climbs and or descents, I don't meet the
> PTS requirements. Either I blow the altitude or the heading. Take the
> hood off and I can climb, turn, fiddle with the radio and look for
> traffic (while chewing gum) without blowing headings or altitudes.
>
> Landings. I fly out of LGB (Long Beach) and LGB is cursed with
> WIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIDE runways. I say cursed, since
> when we fly to CMP (Compton) or TOA (Torrance), I have no problem
> staying on the runway center-line. But at LGB I can track the
> center-line up to the flare, after the flare at touchdown I'm off the
> centerline. Am I in the weeds? No. I'm usually 20-30 feet left or
> right of the centerline.
>
> Am I stupid? I don't think so. I studied Chemical Engineering and
> Computer Science in college and I work as a Software Architect for
> manufacturer of large transport category airplanes. Before someone
> concludes that I'm a bookworm, I've renovated two houses mostly on my
> own. When I say renovate, I mean gutting most of space down to the
> framing and bringing the space back to code.
>
> Am I slow? I read slowly, but otherwise see above.
>
> I don't think it's the instructor. He is not someone who is teaching
> just to build time and then move on to bigger airplanes. The only
> comment I could make and I suspect that it would apply to many
> instructors, is that he points too many things out. Yes, I know I blew
> the altitude or the heading, pointing it out each time can get really
> old, really fast. A suggestion for CFIs, sometimes it's better to wait
> until the maneuver is completed before saying something. Of course, if
> it's a safety of flight issue, then by all means say something.
>
> At the school where I am learning, the instructor grades your
> performance after each flight on a scale from 1 to 5. Where 1 is
> deemed excellent and 5 is considered unsatisfactory. With 3 being
> average. Reviewing my training records, I haven't scored greater than
> a 3 since lesson number 13. From lesson 14 through lesson 33, I've
> scored average to excellent.
>
> Should I quit now? That is what I'm pondering. 47.7 hours and still no
> solo.
>
> Constructive suggestions or criticisms welcomed. Please refrain from
> only saying 'don't give up'.

Darrel Toepfer

November 16th 04, 03:48 PM

Cub Driver wrote:

>>I unfortunately find myself in the latter category... 47.7 hours and
>>no solo yet. Only two issues remain: simulated instrument flight and
>>landings.
>
> I soloed at 48 hours, without taking any time on instrument flight.

I was required 3 hours of it...

> If you are having fun, keep at it. Personally, I think the training
> was the most enjoyable part of flying.

Ditto on what Dan said, if its fun then you'll enjoy it no matter how
long it takes. You don't mention what plane it is you are flying and
that might be a part of it, if its a very complex/difficult model. I've
soloed in 4 different types (my first time at the minimum) but they
aren't all that different (C177, C150, C152, C172) and am currently
working on (2 hours sofar) a tailwheel endorsement. I completed all my
dual/solo training requirements a year ago next month, I started flight
training last November, flunked the written back in May (by 4 points,
didn't study) and haven't gone back yet. I get signed off every 90 days
to continue solo flight and have over 104 hours sofar and have enjoyed
every minute of it. But then I don't fly out of controlled space, I
actually have to fly to it. I'm sure you'll make a very competent pilot
from the extra work required from the areas you are always in. And all
your instrument training is never lost, that is carried over to your
next license... <G>

C Kingsbury

November 16th 04, 05:13 PM

"JustMe" > wrote in message
om...
>
> As such, when someone asks "What is the average hours before
> soloing?", they are trying to compare themselves to the 'average'
> pilot.

Hours-to-solo are like your grades in high school: something you worry about
intensely that cease to matter the minute you get into college. The minute
you solo you will cease to care how long it took you to get there. Trust me
on this.

> Landings. I fly out of LGB (Long Beach) and LGB is cursed with
> WIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIDE runways. I say cursed, <SNIP>

Sounds like a basic problem that a good instructor could remedy in a few
hours. I wouldn't lose sleep over it.

Also, learning at a big field like LGB poses its own challenges- busy
pattern, ATC procedures and all that. This can easily add 10-15 hours to
your time-to-finish, but you'll get it back if and when you go for your
instrument rating.

> I don't think it's the instructor.

Assuming you are making good landings on smaller runways as you describe,
then I would say it is the instructor.

> Constructive suggestions or criticisms welcomed. Please refrain from
> only saying 'don't give up'.

Tactically, it sounds like you may be fixating on getting the flare just
right, with the side effect that you lose track of your heading. On narrower
runways this doesn't happen as much because small heading deviations are
much more noticeable. Just my guess as a non-CFI. My advice: relax and fly
the airplane. It sounds cliche but there you go. If your instructor is
jabbering at you the whole way down he's probably not helping. Tell him to
shut up.

Strategically, I think you need to do a little experiment. There's an awful
lot of flight schools in your area, go to another one. Call and make an
appointment to talk to a senior instructor and tell them your full situation
and say you want to fly at least three hours with them over two or three
lessons, so they have time to get to know you a bit. I know you may feel
some sort of attachment to the other school, but deal with it. This is
business and they'll understand.

Second, if you haven't done the written yet, do it NOW. I have a feeling
that once you get the right instructor you will move through the rest of the
PPL program very quickly and you don't want the written test holding you up.

Best,
-cwk.

Michael

November 16th 04, 05:21 PM

(JustMe) wrote
> With simulated instrument flight, I can do straight and level and
> turns. But when combined with climbs and or descents, I don't meet the
> PTS requirements. Either I blow the altitude or the heading. Take the
> hood off and I can climb, turn, fiddle with the radio and look for
> traffic (while chewing gum) without blowing headings or altitudes.

Not a problem. You're not ready for your checkride, but you don't
need to be. With this lack in the instrument flying category, I would
simply solo you with a restriction - no night flying, no flying in
visibility less than 6 miles or ceilings less than 2500 ft. That way,
there's no way you're going to inadvertently get into the clouds, so
no reason why your emergency instrument skills need to be up to par.

You need not be up to private pilot standards when you solo - you just
need to be reasonably safe, and if your skills are deficient in some
area, well, that's what restrictions are for. The FAA recognizes this
and gives CFI's the authority to solo a student who does not meet
private pilot PTS with appropriate restrictions. Your instructor
needs to remember that.

> Landings. I fly out of LGB (Long Beach) and LGB is cursed with
> WIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIDE runways. I say cursed, since
> when we fly to CMP (Compton) or TOA (Torrance), I have no problem
> staying on the runway center-line. But at LGB I can track the
> center-line up to the flare, after the flare at touchdown I'm off the
> centerline. Am I in the weeds? No. I'm usually 20-30 feet left or
> right of the centerline.

Again, I don't see a problem. If you can consistently land on the
runway, you're good to go. Landing on the centerline on a very wide
runway is a skill unto itself. If you're looking at the far end of
the runway (as you should be), and the runway is really wide, it is
really easy to land a bit off and not notice. It's not unsafe unless
you are flying a widebody or doing formation landings. Nowidebodies
for you as a student pilot, but I would restrict you from formation
landings.

BTW, there are plenty of private pilots who have the same problem you
do with regard to landings. There is a certificate that calls for the
ability to land with the centerline between the mains. That
certificate is the ATP.

From where I'm sitting, if those are your only problems you are ready
to solo. You're not ready to be a private pilot, but most people are
not ready at less than 50 hours.

Something is not right about your instructor or flight school. I
suggest you check out another.

Michael

HankC

November 16th 04, 05:27 PM

(JustMe) wrote in message >...
> Bob Moore > wrote in message >...
> > (JustMe) wrote
> >
> > > I unfortunately find myself in the latter category... 47.7 hours and
> > > no solo yet. Only two issues remain: simulated instrument flight and
> > > landings.
> > >
> > > With simulated instrument flight, I can do straight and level and
> > > turns. But when combined with climbs and or descents, I don't meet the
> > > PTS requirements. Either I blow the altitude or the heading. Take the
> > > hood off and I can climb, turn, fiddle with the radio and look for
> > > traffic (while chewing gum) without blowing headings or altitudes.
> >
> > WHAT!!!!!!! Are you doing instrument training before solo? WHY????
> > Fire your instructor immediately!!! Show him this message. I have
> > solo'ed nit-wits in less than 20 hours.
> >
> > Bob Moore
> > ATP CFI
> > PanAm (retired)
>
> Bob,
>
> Thanks for the reply.
>
> Yes, I am doing hood work before solo. To be fair, the school where
> I'm training has a Pre Solo Stage Check requirement. The stage check
> is performed by a Designated Check Airman and not the instructor of
> record.
>
> I hesitated posting the contents of the Pre Solo Stage Check, since it
> is long, but I'll do so now. The stage check last about two hours and
> consists of a ground portion (basic knowledge) and a practical portion
> (flight maneuvers).
>
> The ground portion covers the following topic:
>
> - Aerodynamics
> - Aircraft Systems (Fuel and Electrical)
> - FAR part 91 and 61 (certificates and documents)
> - Performance and Limitations
> - Class B airspace Requirements
> - ATC Procedures and Light Gun
> - Weather Briefing
> - Runway Markings
> - Weight and Balance
> - Emergency Checklists
> - Spin Awareness
> - Land and Hold Short (students just say No!)
> - Weight Turbulence Avoidance
> - Intercept Procedures
>
> The practical portions includes the following maneuvers:
>
> - Pre-flight Inspection
> - Starting Engine
> - Taxing ( Communications, Normal and Crosswind Taxiing)
> - Pre-takeoff Checklist
> - Takeoff (Normal and Crosswind)
> - Climb Out
> - Descents
> - Collision Avoidance
> - Straight and Level
> - Turns
> - Steep Turns
> - Ground Reference Maneuvers (S -Turns, Turns Around a Point,
> Rectangular Course)
> - Instrument Procedures
> - Minimum Controllable Airspeed and Slow Flight
> - Stalls (Departure, Approach and Accelerated)
>
> Turning Page over
>
> - Emergency Procedures ( Engine Failure, Engine Fire, Electrical Fire,
> Emergency Descent, Emergency Approach and Landing, Radio Failure and
> Open Door In-Flight)
> - Landings (Normal, Crosswind, Pattern Work and Go Arounds)
> - Securing and Shutdown.
>
> The completion standards are:
>
> - Altitude plus/minus 150 feet
> - Headings plus/minus 15 degrees
> - Airspeed plus/minus 5 knots.
>
> Given that I don't have something to compare against, I can't tell if
> this level of proficiency before solo is excessive. Do other schools
> have the same requirements?
>
> Seeing that Instrument Procedures are a requirement, do you have any
> tips, tricks or magic incantation that I can perform so that I won't
> be chasing the attitude indicator and heading DG all-over the sky?

After 47.7 hours, you can reasonably ask when to expect taking the
plane out in the pattern by yourself. A solo is merely a take-off and
a landing and the shirt off your back ;)

I almost wet my pants when my FI said to taxi to the ramp, drop him
off and take it for one spin around the pattern :P

HankC

HankC

November 16th 04, 05:27 PM

George

November 16th 04, 07:23 PM

(JustMe) wrote in message >...
> As a society, we are obsessed with Numbers. We use them to compare
> ourselves to others. I make X number of dollars, I have house of Y
> square feet. My car, truck or other vehicle has an engine of W liter
> (cubic inches for the metrically challenged).
>
> As such, when someone asks "What is the average hours before
> soloing?", they are trying to compare themselves to the 'average'
> pilot. If they do it in less than the average, then it's 'look at me,
> I'm great'. If they do it in the 'average' amount of time, then they
> are doing OK. But, when their number of hours is greater than the
> average, they may feel that something is wrong with them. "Am I
> stupid?". "Am I slow?". "Should I quit now?".
>
> I unfortunately find myself in the latter category... 47.7 hours and
> no solo yet. Only two issues remain: simulated instrument flight and
> landings.

I went solo under 5 hours.
There is no average pilot. Nowadays here (New Zealand) most solos
happen after 10 hours
And my advice is get thee to another flying school, club or other
flight training center.
Its the gap between 1st solo and license that is the enjoyable bit
that you can spin out

Dudley Henriques

November 16th 04, 07:46 PM

If everything you have written here is the exact scenario you are
experiencing with this flight school, I would suggest that you look
seriously into a new flight school.
Something is WAY out of line here ! I could go into detail on what those
things are but it would take too much bandwidth to cover it all.
Dudley Henriques
International Fighter Pilots Fellowship
for email; take out the trash

"JustMe" > wrote in message
om...
> As a society, we are obsessed with Numbers. We use them to compare
> ourselves to others. I make X number of dollars, I have house of Y
> square feet. My car, truck or other vehicle has an engine of W liter
> (cubic inches for the metrically challenged).
>
> As such, when someone asks "What is the average hours before
> soloing?", they are trying to compare themselves to the 'average'
> pilot. If they do it in less than the average, then it's 'look at me,
> I'm great'. If they do it in the 'average' amount of time, then they
> are doing OK. But, when their number of hours is greater than the
> average, they may feel that something is wrong with them. "Am I
> stupid?". "Am I slow?". "Should I quit now?".
>
> I unfortunately find myself in the latter category... 47.7 hours and
> no solo yet. Only two issues remain: simulated instrument flight and
> landings.
>
> With simulated instrument flight, I can do straight and level and
> turns. But when combined with climbs and or descents, I don't meet the
> PTS requirements. Either I blow the altitude or the heading. Take the
> hood off and I can climb, turn, fiddle with the radio and look for
> traffic (while chewing gum) without blowing headings or altitudes.
>
> Landings. I fly out of LGB (Long Beach) and LGB is cursed with
> WIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIDE runways. I say cursed, since
> when we fly to CMP (Compton) or TOA (Torrance), I have no problem
> staying on the runway center-line. But at LGB I can track the
> center-line up to the flare, after the flare at touchdown I'm off the
> centerline. Am I in the weeds? No. I'm usually 20-30 feet left or
> right of the centerline.
>
> Am I stupid? I don't think so. I studied Chemical Engineering and
> Computer Science in college and I work as a Software Architect for
> manufacturer of large transport category airplanes. Before someone
> concludes that I'm a bookworm, I've renovated two houses mostly on my
> own. When I say renovate, I mean gutting most of space down to the
> framing and bringing the space back to code.
>
> Am I slow? I read slowly, but otherwise see above.
>
> I don't think it's the instructor. He is not someone who is teaching
> just to build time and then move on to bigger airplanes. The only
> comment I could make and I suspect that it would apply to many
> instructors, is that he points too many things out. Yes, I know I blew
> the altitude or the heading, pointing it out each time can get really
> old, really fast. A suggestion for CFIs, sometimes it's better to wait
> until the maneuver is completed before saying something. Of course, if
> it's a safety of flight issue, then by all means say something.
>
> At the school where I am learning, the instructor grades your
> performance after each flight on a scale from 1 to 5. Where 1 is
> deemed excellent and 5 is considered unsatisfactory. With 3 being
> average. Reviewing my training records, I haven't scored greater than
> a 3 since lesson number 13. From lesson 14 through lesson 33, I've
> scored average to excellent.
>
> Should I quit now? That is what I'm pondering. 47.7 hours and still no
> solo.
>
> Constructive suggestions or criticisms welcomed. Please refrain from
> only saying 'don't give up'.

gatt

November 16th 04, 08:36 PM

"JustMe" > wrote in message

> I unfortunately find myself in the latter category... 47.7 hours and
> no solo yet. Only two issues remain: simulated instrument flight and
> landings.

Somebody check me on this, but, WHAT?! 47.7 hours and not even a solo
would indicate a failure as an instructor. If a qualified instructor has
had you in the airplane that long and has not successfully trained you to
fly around the pattern a couple of times, I don't think it's your issue.
It's either gross ineptitude on the part of the educator or a scam. Anybody
disagree?

This is what I would do: (I'm private and instrument rated, working on my
commercial, got my private at about 55 hrs.)

Go to a different FBO and instructor entirely, with your logbook and medical
certificate and ask them to take you up for an hour. After an hour, ask
the instructor if he thinks, based on your hour of flying, you should have
soloed already.

They probably won't say "yes!", and will answer cautiously having only flown
with you for an hour, but the instructor might also be able to indicate
whether he thinks you might be better off learning elsewhere.

Good luck and, yeah, don't give up at LEAST until you solo.

-c

gatt

November 16th 04, 08:50 PM

"Blanche" > wrote in message

> So what? Are you in a race with someone? The only downside of
> this many hours is the money. That's all.

I agree with your statement, but at $100+ an hour for dual time with
instruction, that's a LOT of money. That's a huge chunk of instrument
training, cross country work, etc.

For example, for my instrument rating I blew over a thousand dollars
practicing for "special routines that the examiner loved to fail people on,"
until I could do them in my sleep. The examiner didn't even touch those
manuevers (Pattern B, etc) and threw a whole battery of stuff at me that I'd
never done dual. (And I passed, first try, in IMC. So...maybe I didn't
blow the money, but I have to take out a loan now to finish my commercial
training.)

>And in a year or so, (assuming you still have a job) you probably won't
even remember it.

Exactly. In a year or so, I'll still be paying for all that Pattern B
practice.

I think this guy should go ride with a different instructor and operation
and let somebody in the plane with him evaluate his skill. Unless the
student is a complete space cadet, 40+ hours and no solo demonstrates
failure on the part of the instructor, not the student.

Hell, I have a great idea for Discovery Wings: See if you can train a
monkey to solo (simulator) in 40 hours.

-c

Cockpit Colin

November 16th 04, 09:27 PM

We've recently had a young lady come to us after failing to solo after 30
hours - we had her soloing in an additional 1.5.

Sometimes some instructors are better suited to students with particular
types of issues.

The other problem you'll be having right about now is starting to psych
yourself out - hang in there - but make a change - after 47 hours you're
probably not going to get there unless you find out what the true obstacle
is and make a change to overcome it.

I'd try a few other (experienced) instructors to see if they can progress
you.

Cheers,

CC

"Bob Moore" > wrote in message
21...
> (JustMe) wrote
>
> > I unfortunately find myself in the latter category... 47.7 hours and
> > no solo yet. Only two issues remain: simulated instrument flight and
> > landings.
> >
> > With simulated instrument flight, I can do straight and level and
> > turns. But when combined with climbs and or descents, I don't meet the
> > PTS requirements. Either I blow the altitude or the heading. Take the
> > hood off and I can climb, turn, fiddle with the radio and look for
> > traffic (while chewing gum) without blowing headings or altitudes.
>
> WHAT!!!!!!! Are you doing instrument training before solo? WHY????
> Fire your instructor immediately!!! Show him this message. I have
> solo'ed nit-wits in less than 20 hours.
>
> Bob Moore
> ATP CFI
> PanAm (retired)

C Kingsbury

November 16th 04, 11:00 PM

"gatt" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> Hell, I have a great idea for Discovery Wings: See if you can train a
> monkey to solo (simulator) in 40 hours.
>

Great idea, but they'd have to make the monkey and the CFI wear different
color shirts so viewers can tell who is who.

-cwk.

aluckyguess

November 17th 04, 03:26 AM

Try another CFI ask him for a true opinion.
"JustMe" > wrote in message
om...
> As a society, we are obsessed with Numbers. We use them to compare
> ourselves to others. I make X number of dollars, I have house of Y
> square feet. My car, truck or other vehicle has an engine of W liter
> (cubic inches for the metrically challenged).
>
> As such, when someone asks "What is the average hours before
> soloing?", they are trying to compare themselves to the 'average'
> pilot. If they do it in less than the average, then it's 'look at me,
> I'm great'. If they do it in the 'average' amount of time, then they
> are doing OK. But, when their number of hours is greater than the
> average, they may feel that something is wrong with them. "Am I
> stupid?". "Am I slow?". "Should I quit now?".
>
> I unfortunately find myself in the latter category... 47.7 hours and
> no solo yet. Only two issues remain: simulated instrument flight and
> landings.
>
> With simulated instrument flight, I can do straight and level and
> turns. But when combined with climbs and or descents, I don't meet the
> PTS requirements. Either I blow the altitude or the heading. Take the
> hood off and I can climb, turn, fiddle with the radio and look for
> traffic (while chewing gum) without blowing headings or altitudes.
>
> Landings. I fly out of LGB (Long Beach) and LGB is cursed with
> WIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIDE runways. I say cursed, since
> when we fly to CMP (Compton) or TOA (Torrance), I have no problem
> staying on the runway center-line. But at LGB I can track the
> center-line up to the flare, after the flare at touchdown I'm off the
> centerline. Am I in the weeds? No. I'm usually 20-30 feet left or
> right of the centerline.
>
> Am I stupid? I don't think so. I studied Chemical Engineering and
> Computer Science in college and I work as a Software Architect for
> manufacturer of large transport category airplanes. Before someone
> concludes that I'm a bookworm, I've renovated two houses mostly on my
> own. When I say renovate, I mean gutting most of space down to the
> framing and bringing the space back to code.
>
> Am I slow? I read slowly, but otherwise see above.
>
> I don't think it's the instructor. He is not someone who is teaching
> just to build time and then move on to bigger airplanes. The only
> comment I could make and I suspect that it would apply to many
> instructors, is that he points too many things out. Yes, I know I blew
> the altitude or the heading, pointing it out each time can get really
> old, really fast. A suggestion for CFIs, sometimes it's better to wait
> until the maneuver is completed before saying something. Of course, if
> it's a safety of flight issue, then by all means say something.
>
> At the school where I am learning, the instructor grades your
> performance after each flight on a scale from 1 to 5. Where 1 is
> deemed excellent and 5 is considered unsatisfactory. With 3 being
> average. Reviewing my training records, I haven't scored greater than
> a 3 since lesson number 13. From lesson 14 through lesson 33, I've
> scored average to excellent.
>
> Should I quit now? That is what I'm pondering. 47.7 hours and still no
> solo.
>
> Constructive suggestions or criticisms welcomed. Please refrain from
> only saying 'don't give up'.

JustMe

November 17th 04, 06:46 AM

I'd like to thank all of you for replying. Seeing that so many of you
have replied, I've chosen to reply to most using this one post. I've
tried to
attribute the copied quote to the correct person. If I've made any
mistakes, then please accept my apologies.

Peter Duniho ) wrote:

>>I agree with Bob, at least in fact if not tone. Just from your
message, it
>>sure sounds like the standards your instructor is expecting from you
before
>>solo are just too high. A solo student needs to be able to safely
operate
>>the airplane in the expected environment. A solo student does NOT
need to
>>be good enough to pass the checkride. If he were, an instructor
would just
>>send him off for his checkride.

The Pre Solo Check Ride is a policy of the school and not the
instructor. The School will not allow a student to solo a school
operated airplane until a Student is signed-off by a Designated Check
Airman.

Wizard of Draws ) wrote:

>>If I soloed only after I was able to consistently land on the
centerline,
>>I'd still be riding dual after 265 hours and my instrument ticket in
hand.

I've been told by the instructor that the Designated Check Airman
wants to
See consistent landings on the runway centerline.

>>If you can fly the pattern and land without your CFI being required
to touch
>>the controls for reasons of immediate safety, I'd say you should be
solo.

After reviewing all of the after lesson training reports last night
(which I tallied in a pretty colored spreadsheet), I figured that I
was ready to solo
in the pattern any time after twenty hours of dual instructions. This
is my opinion.

Dave S ) wrote:

>>Ask to fly with another instructor or with the chief flight
instructor
>>for a second opinion. This is a perfectly valid approach to take. If
you
>>dont feel that the staff at THAT school can give you an honest
second >>opinion, go find a freelance instructor or another school. It
would be
>>PREFERABLE to take this "second opinion" ride in the same type of
>>aircraft you have been training in.. less to "learn" while
demonstrating
>>your stuff.

I may do that, but not at the same school. It's not a reflection on
the
School, but asking for a second opinion is an action that people
usually
Hear about.

Blanche ) wrote:

>>So what? Are you in a race with someone? The only downside of
>>this many hours is the money. That's all. And in a year or so,
>>(assuming you still have a job) you probably won't even remember it.

Not a race. My plan is to build my own airplane. An RV-7A. I see
Building my own airplane as a nice challenge and not an impossible
task.
However, it pointless to build an airplane if can't fly it.

Also, if it takes this long just to solo, then is flying a suitable
hobby?

Cub Driver ) wrote:

>>If you are having fun, keep at it. Personally, I think the training
>>was the most enjoyable part of flying.

It stopped being fun last week. I flew yesterday morning on my day off
and
I was dreading it, since I knew that we would be doing hood work.

Under the Hood, I can do the individual maneuvers (climbs, descents,
turns both shallow And steep), but when they are combined together,
then the execution is not to standards. I think the big issue it
getting the airplane trimmed while under the hood. When flying VFR,
I can trim the airplane, since I can see the nose rise or dip in
relation to the horizon. But under the hood that reference point is
not available and I must use the AI and I find it difficult to fine
tune the trim using the AI. It also doesn't help that the AI and the
Turn Coordinator can't agree on what is a level attitude. The turn
Coordinator is correct, since the DG is steady when it (turn
coordinator) indicates a level attitude. The AI indicates a slight
turn to the right. Which is enough to initiate a heading change.

I've decided to take a break and not fly the rest of the week. Also,
I'll try to
schedule a flight with another instructor from a different school.

In the interest of presenting both sides of the situation, I've
scanned all 32 of the Private Pilot Training Records (I'm missing the
very first report) that the instructor completed and which both of us
signed. I've also scanned the pages from my logbook (6 pages total).
I'm prepared to make those available for your review.

Given that this material is confidential, I don't want to send it to
everyone and seeing that some if not most of the people that posted a
reply seem to know one another, it might be good to decide amongst
yourself who is interested in reviewing the material. The reviews can
then post their impressions to the newsgroup.

The material is 7.35 MB is size, so I'll need to email them in chunks
to those selected. You can email me at

I'd like to once again thank all of you for your suggestions. I'm
feeling
Better today than I did yesterday.

Blanche

November 17th 04, 12:26 PM

Taking the rest of the week off, and taking a ride with a different
CFI at a different school is an excellent idea. As far as "the DE
wants denterline landings...." know what? There are lots of DEs
out there. Your school may use one DE to the exclusion of others.

I took a 4 month break from lessons when I had to go out of town
on business for an extended time. Of course while out of town
I was taking lessons at that location. When I came back, I never
went back to my original school. Life was much better, and I learned
from a much better CFI -- one who wasn't intent on getting a
"real flying job" instead of teaching.

Peter Clark

November 17th 04, 12:47 PM

On 17 Nov 2004 05:26:18 -0700, Blanche >
wrote:

>Taking the rest of the week off, and taking a ride with a different
>CFI at a different school is an excellent idea. As far as "the DE
>wants denterline landings...." know what? There are lots of DEs
>out there. Your school may use one DE to the exclusion of others.

I believe he's talking about the stage check designated CFI at a 141
school, not "the" checkride DE.

Peter Clark

November 17th 04, 01:01 PM

On Tue, 16 Nov 2004 09:48:08 -0600, Darrel Toepfer
> wrote:

>Cub Driver wrote:
>
>>>I unfortunately find myself in the latter category... 47.7 hours and
>>>no solo yet. Only two issues remain: simulated instrument flight and
>>>landings.
>>
>> I soloed at 48 hours, without taking any time on instrument flight.
>
>I was required 3 hours of it...

Before your solo? The reg requires three hours to meet the
requirement for the PPL, but I don't think any reasonable reading of
the reg could require those three hours to be completed to go through
first solo.

I seem to recall somewhere in this thread that the OP is in a part 141
school? If so I'd ask for a copy of their approved 141 syllabus, and
see at what point the simulated instrument work comes in. If it's
before solo, I'd think about having a coffee with the instructor and
chief pilot and see what the reasoning behind it is. I mean, it's 1st
solo - you can't leave the pattern, and if you manage to get yourself
stuck in inadvertent clouds during pattern work there's something more
seriously wrong happening than not having the hood work maneuvers down
pat at that point.

Jose

November 17th 04, 03:07 PM

> [discussion about requiring hood proficiency before solo]

I am disturbed that they require any hood work at all before solo, and that they are emphasizing hood work for the private. By putting you under the
hood that soon, they are teaching you to =not= look out the window. There are already too many geegaws in the cockpit to distract people - GPS alone
is becoming a substitute for knowing how to navigate.

In early training, seat-of-the-pants and look-out-the-window flying should be emphasized, and in later training, one should be constantly reminded not
to get into the habit of fixating on the geegaws. It's too easy to do.

Jose
--
Freedom. It seemed like a good idea at the time.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

Darrel Toepfer

November 17th 04, 03:26 PM

Peter Clark wrote:

>>>I soloed at 48 hours, without taking any time on instrument flight.
>>
>>I was required 3 hours of it...
>
> Before your solo?

No, sorry misread his statement...

Bob Moore

November 17th 04, 04:09 PM

Jose wrote
> In early training, seat-of-the-pants and look-out-the-window flying
> should be emphasized, and in later training, one should be constantly
> reminded not to get into the habit of fixating on the geegaws.

Jose, unfortunately, way back in the '60s or '70s, the FAA introduced
"Integrated Flight Training". A program where use of the "instruments"
(not hood time) was to be introduced from the begining. Most of the
older, more experienced flight instructors know this to be unwise, but
Part 141 schools are coerced by the FAA into using a syllabus based on
this FAA program.

From the "old" FAA AC 61-21A Flight Training Handbook

Integrated Flight Instruction
In introducing the basic flight maneuvers, it is recommended that the
"Integrated Flight Instruction" method be used. This means that each
flight maneuver should be performed by using both outside visual
references and the flight instruments.
When pilots use this technique, they achieve a more precise and competent
overall piloting ability. That is, it results in less difficulty in
holding desired altitudes, controlling airspeed during takeoffs, climbs,
descents, and landing approaches, and in maintaining headings in the
traffic pattern, as well as on cross-country flights.
The use of integrated flight instruction does not, and is not intended
to, prepare pilots for flight in instrument weather conditions. It does,
however, provide an excellent foundation

for the future attainment of an instrument pilot rating, and will result
in the pilot becoming a more accurate, competent, and safe pilot.
Although integrated flight instruction should be used for all flight
maneuvers, its use is specifically discussed here in only the Basic
Flight Maneuvers.

Bob Moore
CFIing for 34 years

Allen

November 17th 04, 04:53 PM

"Bob Moore" > wrote in message
. 122...
> Jose wrote
> > In early training, seat-of-the-pants and look-out-the-window flying
> > should be emphasized, and in later training, one should be constantly
> > reminded not to get into the habit of fixating on the geegaws.
>
> Jose, unfortunately, way back in the '60s or '70s, the FAA introduced
> "Integrated Flight Training". A program where use of the "instruments"
> (not hood time) was to be introduced from the begining. Most of the
> older, more experienced flight instructors know this to be unwise, but
> Part 141 schools are coerced by the FAA into using a syllabus based on
> this FAA program.
>

This integrated instrument time was in the syllabus at the schools I taught
at. When the student got the basic scan down his altitude and heading
control improved considerably. What it did that I didn't like was reliance
on the gauges while he was VMC (head down and locked). I would have to
cover the attitude indicator to get them to look outside again. I have had
several students take and pass the Private Pilot checkride with just 35
hours in their logbooks (following the syllabus).

Allen

C J Campbell

November 17th 04, 04:56 PM

Honestly? I would solo you right now. You are being ripped off.

C J Campbell

November 17th 04, 05:02 PM

I have to think that the problem is not with the instructor, it is the
school. I see bad memories of Sierra Academy here.

Some schools claim to have "higher standards." In fact, they are rip-off
houses that bleed their students dry without teaching them anything. JustMe
needs to find another school right now.

Snoopy

November 17th 04, 06:45 PM

I received my training at a Major University flight program that was in the
process of taking it one step further and combining 2 year (VFR / IFR)
course into a combined accelerated schedule (1 year- maybe 3 semesters, I
got out before it became official). I was learning instruments & approaches
VERY early. The only complaint I received on my PPL exam was to look out the
window more often! Since I did not go pro, or even finish the IFR - I kind
of wish I did not learn that way, so flying a minimum equip. craft wouldn't
scare the snot out of me. ;-) But I could shoot an ILS to minimums without
breaking a sweat!

"Allen" > wrote in message
. com...
>
> "Bob Moore" > wrote in message
> . 122...
> > Jose wrote
> > > In early training, seat-of-the-pants and look-out-the-window flying
> > > should be emphasized, and in later training, one should be constantly
> > > reminded not to get into the habit of fixating on the geegaws.
> >
> > Jose, unfortunately, way back in the '60s or '70s, the FAA introduced
> > "Integrated Flight Training". A program where use of the "instruments"
> > (not hood time) was to be introduced from the begining. Most of the
> > older, more experienced flight instructors know this to be unwise, but
> > Part 141 schools are coerced by the FAA into using a syllabus based on
> > this FAA program.
> >
>
> This integrated instrument time was in the syllabus at the schools I
taught
> at. When the student got the basic scan down his altitude and heading
> control improved considerably. What it did that I didn't like was
reliance
> on the gauges while he was VMC (head down and locked). I would have to
> cover the attitude indicator to get them to look outside again. I have
had
> several students take and pass the Private Pilot checkride with just 35
> hours in their logbooks (following the syllabus).
>
> Allen
>
>

Allen

November 17th 04, 07:00 PM

"Snoopy" <Snoopy is > wrote in message
. com...
> I received my training at a Major University flight program that was in
the
> process of taking it one step further and combining 2 year (VFR / IFR)
> course into a combined accelerated schedule (1 year- maybe 3 semesters, I
> got out before it became official). I was learning instruments &
approaches
> VERY early. The only complaint I received on my PPL exam was to look out
the
> window more often! Since I did not go pro, or even finish the IFR - I kind
> of wish I did not learn that way, so flying a minimum equip. craft
wouldn't
> scare the snot out of me. ;-) But I could shoot an ILS to minimums without
> breaking a sweat!
>

By the time my students soloed they could maintain altitude and heading, do
constant airspeed climbs and descents and standard rate turns to headings
under the hood. They normally soloed with about 10-15 hours logged.

Allen

George

November 17th 04, 07:29 PM

(JustMe) wrote in message >...

snip

> Given that this material is confidential, I don't want to send it to
> everyone and seeing that some if not most of the people that posted a
> reply seem to know one another, it might be good to decide amongst
> yourself who is interested in reviewing the material. The reviews can
> then post their impressions to the newsgroup.
>
> The material is 7.35 MB is size, so I'll need to email them in chunks
> to those selected. You can email me at

I recommend Cub driver. He's pretty much up on it as are most of the
others who replied to you.... :-)

Chris W

November 17th 04, 09:33 PM

JustMe wrote:

>engine of W liter
>(cubic inches for the metrically challenged).
>
>
>
Cubic inches is just as good of a volumetric metric as liters, it's just
not a metric metric :)

Chris W

Gift Giving Made Easy
Get the gifts you want & give the
gifts they want this holiday season
http://thewishzone.com

Matt Barrow

November 17th 04, 10:33 PM

"C J Campbell" > wrote in message
...
> Honestly? I would solo you right now. You are being ripped off.
>
Otherwise, the conclusion is that flying is not your "thing".

--
Matt (soloed at 10.5 hours)
---------------------
Matthew W. Barrow
Site-Fill Homes, LLC.
Montrose, CO

Michael

November 18th 04, 03:43 PM

Bob Moore > wrote
> Jose, unfortunately, way back in the '60s or '70s, the FAA introduced
> "Integrated Flight Training". A program where use of the "instruments"
> (not hood time) was to be introduced from the begining. Most of the
> older, more experienced flight instructors know this to be unwise

Translation - those who learned in Stearmans and T-craft and were not
allowed to look at the gauges until long after they had soloed,
learning instead to fly by the seat of the pants, the feel of the
stick, and the sound of the wind felt this was unwise. And in one
sense it was.

The old "fly by the seat of the pants" paradigm produced great sticks
- people who really felt the airplane. Those who couldn't do it (many
can't) washed out. That's very important for day-VFR close-in combat
flying and competition or airshow aerobatics - and not much else in
the world of powered flying. The old system produced pilots who were
great in good day-VFR conditions, but inherently distrusted
instruments and thus never got comfortable with night and weather
flying. They were the same people whose idea of emergency instrument
training consisted of "See that cloud? Fly into it and you will DIE."

I suppose in an era when a well equipped civil airplane might have a
T&S - certainly no other gyros - and civil IFR was considered
unrealistic, that may have made sense. In the modern world, where
even primary trainers come with IFR panels, it's the integrated method
of instruction that makes sense. It makes for more precise pilots.
Yes, there is a tendency to focus inside - but any worthwhile
instructor will see it and correct the problem. Remember - those
sticky notes are not just for instrument training - they can and
should be used to curb reliance on any (or all) instruments as
necessary.

The advantage of the integrated method is that the instruments are
familiar from day one, and the use of instrument references to refine
and supplement visual references when those are inadequate to the task
is an excellent habit that is not really sufficient for IFR flying
(though it does make an inadvertent encounter far less likely to
kill), but builds a strong foundation for it. It makes it that much
easier to transition to instruments when required, rather than trying
to use the "eagle eyes" and "seat of the pants" approaches (which
plain don't work) when visual references are inadequate.

So the tradeoff is you get a pilot less able to feel the airplane and
fly it to the very edge of the performance envelope, but more
comfortable with night and marginal weather and thus more able to use
the airplane for transportation is weather that is less than ideal.
IMO that is a very sensible tradeoff.

I snipped the part from the FAA book, but I agree with it completely.
For the modern environment, where it's the airplane without gyros that
is unusual, not the one with them, it makes all kinds of sense.

Michael

C Kingsbury

November 18th 04, 06:12 PM

"JustMe" > wrote in message
om...
>
> Under the Hood, I can do the individual maneuvers (climbs, descents,
> turns both shallow And steep), but when they are combined together,
> then the execution is not to standards. I think the big issue it
> getting the airplane trimmed while under the hood. When flying VFR,
> I can trim the airplane, since I can see the nose rise or dip in
> relation to the horizon. But under the hood that reference point is
> not available and I must use the AI and I find it difficult to fine
> tune the trim using the AI.

To address this point specifically, I think you may be receiving some faulty
instruction. Perhaps some of the CFIIs here would care to comment.

Don't focus too much on the AI. Remember that you are trying to maintain (1)
altitude and (2) heading. Now, which of these does the AI tell you? Neither!
My instructor had me fly complete IFR flights in actual IFR weather from
takeoff to landing with the AI covered to prove the point.

In formal "attitude instrument flying" you group instruments into "primary"
and "secondary" groups based on the information they give you. Without going
into painful and unnecessary detail on this, suffice it to say that there
are very few things the AI is the "primary" instrument for. In most cases
you use it to verify what another instrument is telling you. Otherwise, you
use it to establish an initial attitude (such as a climb) and then quickly
switch to other instruments.

Let's say I wanted to level off after climbing to 3000'. Approaching 2900'
or so I would push the nose down. Without the AI this was a matter of feel;
otherwise put the bar right in the middle. Now, don't look at it again, just
hold the pressure right there. Then I'd throttle back to cruise power,
2300rpm in my 172. Then, I would trim the pressure off as I watched the
*altimeter* and not the AI. Be careful not to hunt with the trim though-
trim the pressure off, then wait. If the needle starts to move then push the
yoke to stop the motion, then wait a few seconds and see what it does. Only
when you've got things steady for a few seconds do you roll the trim.

Here's a dirty little secret: If you set the power to 2300, and find the
trim setting that holds the altitude level, the AI will *always* indicate
the same attitude. It has to. If you don't understand why, you need to read
"Stick and Rudder" by Langewiesche, which you can buy on Amazon. It explains
aerodynamics in a practical way for student pilots.

Now, once you've got everything steady, what do you watch? The altimeter.
Remember, you are trying to hold altitude, not attitude. If it starts to go
up, you push the nose down, and vice versa. Also, if you're flying a plane
with a fixed-pitch prop, the sound it makes will alert you to climbs and
descents, since they will make the engine slow down or speed up. Of course
you can use the AI to confirm what you're seeing, but when it comes to
maintaining straight-and-level flight it's the altimeter I want to see
first.

> It also doesn't help that the AI and the
> Turn Coordinator can't agree on what is a level attitude. The turn
> Coordinator is correct, since the DG is steady when it (turn
> coordinator) indicates a level attitude. The AI indicates a slight
> turn to the right. Which is enough to initiate a heading change.
>

The DG is what you want to pay attention to first. If it's a few degrees off
and not changing, then you can correct very easily by just bumping it with a
little rudder. No, it's not coordinated, but if we're talking five degrees
or less it's much easier. In most cases you can do this without any aileron
at all. Now, if the DG is turning, then your wings are probably not level.
Use the AI to put the bank angle where you want it--level to stop the turn,
or banked in the other direction to turn back to the proper heading. Don't
look at the horizon bar to do this- look at the index indicator at the 12
o'clock position. This is much more accurate and easier to read. To hold
altitude, watch the altimeter. Most people apply too much back pressure. As
you get the bank established the DG should start to indicate the turn, and
you can glance at the TC to back this up and to fine-tune it. Remember, the
turn coordinator *is not* an AI in any way. It indicates the rate of heading
change, not bank angle.

Anyhow, all of this is a sideshow. A good instructor will teach these things
in the plane a lot more usefully than I will, and that's what you need to
get yourself. Best of luck.

-cwk.