TFRs and FSS briefers

[Dave Jacobowitz]

Okay, all this nonsense about preflight briefers not knowing about
TFRs -- well, it's not nonsense! I thought everybody on this group was
just being, well, you know, "piloty," and complaining about how the
FAA is lame.

But I learned this weekend that it's true. I was taking a friend up
for a Bay Tour from Palo Alto, up to the Golden Gate, and I decided
that it might be prudent to get a briefing, just in case.

First off, I called for an abbreviated briefing, for a local VFR
flight originating from Palo Alto. I also specifically asked for
relevant notams and any TFR activity.

Ding! First mistake. This puts our hapless briefer in a bad mood.
Apparently, she could not read me the weather without having a
destination. I said, how about Palo Alto as a destination. She said,
"but that's where you're originating." "I know." "Well, I can't put
that."

Okay, I know this game. "Put SFO."

After that comes the a briefing that was literally an out-loud reading
of what was on the briefer's computer screen. And it took a looooong
time. It was not abbreviated in any way.

Finally, she gets to the notams and, indeed she has a TFR to tell me
about: before and after (by some time I forgot) games and "gatherings"
at Candlestick Park. Now, see this is useful information, as a Bay
Tour takes you very close to Candlestick. Alas, I ask, naively, "so,
is that TFR active right now?" "what do you mean?" "Is there an event
at Candlestick?" "I don't know." "Do you know how I might find out?"
"Not really."

Oy.

I make alternate plans to fly my friend somewhere else scenic, but
while I'm taxiing to the runup area, I casually tell the Palo Alto
ground controller that I was warned of a potential TFR at 3com (urgh)
park and did he know anything, as I was hoping for a Bay Tour. He
kindly calls the contoller at San Carlos (who normally coordinates
these) and that guy says something along the lines of "no, I don't
know, probably not, I've been handling bay tours all day, no problem,
no worries, go for it."

So I go for it, and we have a nice flight, no problems.

Then I come in and read AvWeb yesterday and I read what is practically
the very same story: http://tinyurl.com/6gacq

This is real, and though my story was no big deal, but it is kind of
creepy that the FAA cannot get its act together about this sort of
thing!

Just thought I'd share!

-- dave j
-- jacobowitz73 --at-- yahoo --dot-- com

PS -- I've heard tell that you can be legally _cleared_ through a
stadium TFR. It just so happens that the "Bay Tour" is a transition
through SFO Bravo space, so I was on a clearance in that area. So
maybe all of this didn't matter at all. Where would I find this kind
of thing out for sure?

[Larry Dighera]

On 16 Nov 2004 19:25:15 -0800, (Dave
Jacobowitz) wrote in
>::

>
>Then I come in and read AvWeb yesterday and I read what is practically
>the very same story: http://tinyurl.com/6gacq

That was an interesting article. I especially found this quote
interesting:

By the way, it's a mandatory 30-day suspension if you bust a
presidential TFR. Most other TFR violations carry the same 30-day
suspension spelled out in the FAA Inspector's Handbook, FAA Order
2150.3A, Appendix 4; interestingly, it also recommends 30-90 day
suspensions for failure to obtain a preflight briefing.

So it appears that penetrating "All hat and no cattle's" enormous (in
excess of 3,000 square mile) Presidential TFR will result in mandatory
30-day grounding. Doesn't that endear the leader of the free world to
his subjects, er... fellow Americans? :-(

[Gary Drescher]

"Dave Jacobowitz" > wrote in message
om...
> Okay, all this nonsense about preflight briefers not knowing about
> TFRs -- well, it's not nonsense!

In the case you describe, the briefer properly informed you of the stadium
TFR. It's a blanket, nationwide TFR that's in effect *at all times*,
although it only restricts your flying during the specified events. FSS is
only responsible for knowing when a TFR is in effect--which, in this case,
is *always*. FSS and ATC have no responsibility to know when and where the
specified events take place--that's entirely up to you.

I agree it's unfair for this onus to be on the pilot. Still, we have fair
warning as to the TFR and our responsibility under it--so it's not a case of
FSS "not knowing about TFRs".

--Gary

[Dan Thompson]

It's bad, but not that bad. You can penetrate the Crawford TFR with a
squawk from Waco Approach, which is routinely granted for the outer 20 mile
donut of the TFR. It's kind of like a Class B.

If you blunder through, you will get a cool formation flight and memorable
flare display by F-16s, and a slight delay while you talk to real Secret
Service guys at the Waco FBO. A timely-filed Nasa ASRS form entitles you to
an automatic penalty waiver, but only once every five years.

There really is no excuse for blundering through, as the Ft. Worth FSS
briefers are drilled to make sure they give you a prompt and accurate status
of the TFR even if you don't ask for it. I think there have been a lot of
enforcement resources wasted on citations and certificate actions against
casual GA flyers accidentally barging into the TFR. It's a new restriction,
covers a big volume of air near a major metro area, and is one that
frequently, but only sporadically, is in place. It's the perfect trap for
the recreational, weekend-type, VFR flyers, who are not with-it enough to
know to call FSS for an update or call Approach for squawk.

"Larry Dighera" > wrote in message
...
> On 16 Nov 2004 19:25:15 -0800, (Dave
> Jacobowitz) wrote in
> >::
>
>>
>>Then I come in and read AvWeb yesterday and I read what is practically
>>the very same story: http://tinyurl.com/6gacq
>
> That was an interesting article. I especially found this quote
> interesting:
>
> By the way, it's a mandatory 30-day suspension if you bust a
> presidential TFR. Most other TFR violations carry the same 30-day
> suspension spelled out in the FAA Inspector's Handbook, FAA Order
> 2150.3A, Appendix 4; interestingly, it also recommends 30-90 day
> suspensions for failure to obtain a preflight briefing.
>
> So it appears that penetrating "All hat and no cattle's" enormous (in
> excess of 3,000 square mile) Presidential TFR will result in mandatory
> 30-day grounding. Doesn't that endear the leader of the free world to
> his subjects, er... fellow Americans? :-(

[Larry Dighera]

On Wed, 17 Nov 2004 15:36:57 GMT, "Dan Thompson" > wrote
in >::

>It's a new restriction, covers a big volume of air ...

In the case of the 30-mile radius Presidential TFR surrounding the
President's movements all around the country, it covers an area of
over 3,000 square miles. That would be in excess of enough airspace
to form an 18,000' high, one mile wide corridor from coast to coast!
It seems a bit excessive to put it euphemistically.

The Crawford, Texas TFR only affects 14 airports*, but training
activities are not approved when he's in town. :-(

* http://www.aopa.org/whatsnew/newsitems/2002/02-3-149x.html

[John Clonts]

"Dan Thompson" > wrote in message
om...
> It's bad, but not that bad. You can penetrate the Crawford TFR with a
> squawk from Waco Approach, which is routinely granted for the outer 20
mile
> donut of the TFR. It's kind of like a Class B.

Well it's a bit worse than that. You need the squawk but you must also have
a flight plan on file. No VFR "cold-call" for a squawk, no pop-up IFR.

At least that the way it was a few months ago... I've been filing all my
flights IFR lately, partially for that reason...

Cheers,
John Clonts
Temple, Texas
N7NZ

[Dan Thompson]

Yep. That's why the "kind of" like Class B description. File VFR on 122.3
or the cell on the way to the airport, then call Approach.

"John Clonts" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Dan Thompson" > wrote in message
> om...
>> It's bad, but not that bad. You can penetrate the Crawford TFR with a
>> squawk from Waco Approach, which is routinely granted for the outer 20
> mile
>> donut of the TFR. It's kind of like a Class B.
>
> Well it's a bit worse than that. You need the squawk but you must also
> have
> a flight plan on file. No VFR "cold-call" for a squawk, no pop-up IFR.
>
> At least that the way it was a few months ago... I've been filing all my
> flights IFR lately, partially for that reason...
>
> Cheers,
> John Clonts
> Temple, Texas
> N7NZ
>
>

[Dave Jacobowitz]

"Gary Drescher" > wrote in message
> FSS is
> only responsible for knowing when a TFR is in effect--which, in this case,
> is *always*. FSS and ATC have no responsibility to know when and where the
> specified events take place--that's entirely up to you.
>
> I agree it's unfair for this onus to be on the pilot. Still, we have fair
> warning as to the TFR and our responsibility under it--so it's not a case of
> FSS "not knowing about TFRs".

No, it's beyond unfair, it's ridiculous. The idea that pilots are on
the hook to somehow obtain a schedule of all events (it's not just
regularly scheduled games) that can take place at a stadium is absurd.

Clearly, the briefer was in the letter of the law. She dutifully read
me the TFR that I knew about, but could not provide the actual
information I needed to plan my flight. For that, I can call up the
49ers schedule.

I am too young to be a chrochety old pilot, but it steams me. People
are violating these TFRs every day. And for every one of those
incursions, I bet you there are five pilots who are making ridiculous
deviations to avoid potential TFRs *all the time* because they fear
busting them.

Neither approach is good.

-- dave j