DoD to remove FLIP's from public

[Shane Partain]

Note: You can still download NGA Flight Info Pubs from:
https://164.214.2.62/products/digitalaero/index.cfm

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

[Federal Register: November 18, 2004 (Volume 69, Number 222)]
[Notices]
[Page 67546-67547]
From the Federal Register Online via GPO Access [wais.access.gpo.gov]
[DOCID:fr18no04-31]

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

DEPARTMENT OF DEFENSE

Office of the Secretary


Announcement of Intent To Initiate the Process To Remove
Aeronautical Information From Public Sale and Distribution

AGENCY: National Geospatial-Intelligence Agency (NGA), Department of
Defense.

ACTION: Notice.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

SUMMARY: The National Geospatial-Intelligence Agency (NGA) intends to
remove its Flight Information Publications (FLIP), Digital Aeronautical
Flight Information File (DAFIF), and related aeronautical safety of
navigation digital and hardcopy publications from public sale and
distribution.
This action is taken to accomplish the following objectives:
safeguarding the integrity of Department of Defense (DoD) aeronautical
navigation data currently available on the public Internet; preventing
unfettered access to air facility data by those intending harm to the
United States, its interests or allies; upholding terms of bi-lateral
geospatial data-sharing agreements; avoiding competition with
commercial interests; and avoiding intellectual property/copyright
disputes with foreign agencies that provide host-nation aeronautical
data.
The DAFIF and related digital aeronautical information files will
be protected from general public access on the NGA home page
(http://www.nga.mil
). Aeronautical Flight Information Publications (FLIP),

Navigation/Planning Charts (ONC, TPC, etc.), and the DAFIF CD will be
available only through the Department of Defense (DoD) distribution
system. U.S. Federal and State government agencies, authorized
government contractors, and international agencies that currently
receive those products under formal or informal geospatial data
exchange arrangements will not be affected by this action.

DATES: NGA will implement this action on October 1, 2005 (FY06).

FOR FURTHER INFORMATION CONTACT: For further information about the
substance of this notice, contact Joseph S. Jarvis, Aeronautical
Division, MS L-27, National Geospatial-Intelligence Agency, 3838 Vogel
Road, Arnold, Missouri, 63010-6238 (e-mail: ).

SUPPLEMENTARY INFORMATION: NGA and its predecessor organizations (DMA
and NIMA) have published DoD's flight information products since the
late 1940s to support the worldwide missions of DoD aircraft. The
publications are sold to the public through the auspices of the Federal
Aviation Administration (FAA), and the digital data has been freely
available on the Internet. Notwithstanding a prior practice of making
some of DoD's flight information available to the public in the past,
NGA does not have a statutory requirement to produce aeronautical
products for general civil aviation.
With the proliferation of digital capabilities throughout the
international aviation network, the preferred method of information
exchange is shifting from paper-based to electronic dissemination.
Numerous countries that heretofore relied on host-government agencies
to compile and publish their aeronautical information have recently
transferred that responsibility to commercial or quasi-governmental
agencies. Some of these foreign agencies are beginning to assert
intellectual property rights to the aeronautical data within their
territorial limits and are refusing to provide such aeronautical data
to DoD so long as NGA makes it available to outside interests, whom
these agencies view as possible competitors in the international
marketplace. NGA relies on foreign data obtained through bilateral
geospatial information sharing agreements, and certain nations may
impose restrictions on their data against release to third parties.
Accordingly, there is a rational basis for limiting access to
aeronautical products created for DoD use to DoD and governmental end
users.
By removing national defense aeronautical data from open source
access NGA seeks to accomplish two additional objectives. First, NGA
will reduce the vulnerability of critical navigation data on the
Internet. Second, it will limit/eliminate unfettered access to that
data by organizations and individuals intent on causing harm.
In conclusion, with the accomplishment of this proposed action NGA
aims to protect the sources and integrity of its data, honor its
bilateral agreements restricting non-governmental use, avoid
competition with commercial interests, and allow NGA to focus on its
primary customers and mission, supporting the Department of Defense.


[[Page 67547]]


Dated: November 12, 2004.
Jeannette Owings-Ballard,
OSD Federal Register Liaison Officer, Department of Defense.
[FR Doc. 04-25631 Filed 11-17-04; 8:45 am]

BILLING CODE 5001-06-P


--
Shane Partain
http://worldaerodata.com/


----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==----
http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! >100,000 Newsgroups
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[Paul Tomblin]

In a previous article, Shane Partain > said:
>navigation data currently available on the public Internet; preventing
>unfettered access to air facility data by those intending harm to the
>United States, its interests or allies; upholding terms of bi-lateral

What a load of crap.


Like "those intending harm to the United States" couldn't get the FAA data
instead? Or use last year's data - I don't think the USAF is going to
move their bases.

--
Paul Tomblin > http://xcski.com/blogs/pt/
"This `telephone' has too many shortcomings to be seriously considered as a
means of communication. The device is inherently of no value to us."
-- Western Union internal memo, 1876.

[Larry Dighera]

On Thu, 18 Nov 2004 10:49:51 -0500, Shane Partain
> wrote in >::

>
>SUMMARY: The National Geospatial-Intelligence Agency (NGA) intends to
>remove its Flight Information Publications (FLIP), Digital Aeronautical
>Flight Information File (DAFIF), and related aeronautical safety of
>navigation digital and hardcopy publications from public sale and
>distribution.
> This action is taken to accomplish the following objectives:
>safeguarding the integrity of Department of Defense (DoD) aeronautical
>navigation data currently available on the public Internet; preventing
>unfettered access to air facility data by those intending harm to the
>United States, its interests or allies; upholding terms of bi-lateral
>geospatial data-sharing agreements; avoiding competition with
>commercial interests; and avoiding intellectual property/copyright
>disputes with foreign agencies that provide host-nation aeronautical
>data.
> The DAFIF and related digital aeronautical information files will
>be protected from general public access on the NGA home page
>(http://www.nga.mil
>). Aeronautical Flight Information Publications (FLIP),
>
>Navigation/Planning Charts (ONC, TPC, etc.), and the DAFIF CD will be
>available only through the Department of Defense (DoD) distribution
>system. U.S. Federal and State government agencies, authorized
>government contractors, and international agencies that currently
>receive those products under formal or informal geospatial data
>exchange arrangements will not be affected by this action.
>
>DATES: NGA will implement this action on October 1, 2005 (FY06).
>
>FOR FURTHER INFORMATION CONTACT: For further information about the
>substance of this notice, contact Joseph S. Jarvis, Aeronautical
>Division, MS L-27, National Geospatial-Intelligence Agency, 3838 Vogel
>Road, Arnold, Missouri, 63010-6238 (e-mail: ).


Get 'em while you can:
https://164.214.2.62/products/digitalaero/index.cfm#flip
https://164.214.2.62/products/digitalaero/terminals/downloadlist.cfm

[Dean Wilkinson]

Nice... now Jeppesen will be guaranteed a monopoly, and any would be
terrorists will have to pay Jeppesen to obtain any data that they might
want, like that is going to stop them...

"Shane Partain" > wrote in message
...
> Note: You can still download NGA Flight Info Pubs from:
> https://164.214.2.62/products/digitalaero/index.cfm
>
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> [Federal Register: November 18, 2004 (Volume 69, Number 222)]
> [Notices]
> [Page 67546-67547]
> From the Federal Register Online via GPO Access [wais.access.gpo.gov]
> [DOCID:fr18no04-31]
>
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> DEPARTMENT OF DEFENSE
>
> Office of the Secretary
>
>
> Announcement of Intent To Initiate the Process To Remove
> Aeronautical Information From Public Sale and Distribution
>
> AGENCY: National Geospatial-Intelligence Agency (NGA), Department of
> Defense.
>
> ACTION: Notice.
>
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> SUMMARY: The National Geospatial-Intelligence Agency (NGA) intends to
> remove its Flight Information Publications (FLIP), Digital Aeronautical
> Flight Information File (DAFIF), and related aeronautical safety of
> navigation digital and hardcopy publications from public sale and
> distribution.
> This action is taken to accomplish the following objectives:
> safeguarding the integrity of Department of Defense (DoD) aeronautical
> navigation data currently available on the public Internet; preventing
> unfettered access to air facility data by those intending harm to the
> United States, its interests or allies; upholding terms of bi-lateral
> geospatial data-sharing agreements; avoiding competition with
> commercial interests; and avoiding intellectual property/copyright
> disputes with foreign agencies that provide host-nation aeronautical
> data.
> The DAFIF and related digital aeronautical information files will
> be protected from general public access on the NGA home page
> (http://www.nga.mil
> ). Aeronautical Flight Information Publications (FLIP),
>
> Navigation/Planning Charts (ONC, TPC, etc.), and the DAFIF CD will be
> available only through the Department of Defense (DoD) distribution
> system. U.S. Federal and State government agencies, authorized
> government contractors, and international agencies that currently
> receive those products under formal or informal geospatial data
> exchange arrangements will not be affected by this action.
>
> DATES: NGA will implement this action on October 1, 2005 (FY06).
>
> FOR FURTHER INFORMATION CONTACT: For further information about the
> substance of this notice, contact Joseph S. Jarvis, Aeronautical
> Division, MS L-27, National Geospatial-Intelligence Agency, 3838 Vogel
> Road, Arnold, Missouri, 63010-6238 (e-mail: ).
>
> SUPPLEMENTARY INFORMATION: NGA and its predecessor organizations (DMA
> and NIMA) have published DoD's flight information products since the
> late 1940s to support the worldwide missions of DoD aircraft. The
> publications are sold to the public through the auspices of the Federal
> Aviation Administration (FAA), and the digital data has been freely
> available on the Internet. Notwithstanding a prior practice of making
> some of DoD's flight information available to the public in the past,
> NGA does not have a statutory requirement to produce aeronautical
> products for general civil aviation.
> With the proliferation of digital capabilities throughout the
> international aviation network, the preferred method of information
> exchange is shifting from paper-based to electronic dissemination.
> Numerous countries that heretofore relied on host-government agencies
> to compile and publish their aeronautical information have recently
> transferred that responsibility to commercial or quasi-governmental
> agencies. Some of these foreign agencies are beginning to assert
> intellectual property rights to the aeronautical data within their
> territorial limits and are refusing to provide such aeronautical data
> to DoD so long as NGA makes it available to outside interests, whom
> these agencies view as possible competitors in the international
> marketplace. NGA relies on foreign data obtained through bilateral
> geospatial information sharing agreements, and certain nations may
> impose restrictions on their data against release to third parties.
> Accordingly, there is a rational basis for limiting access to
> aeronautical products created for DoD use to DoD and governmental end
> users.
> By removing national defense aeronautical data from open source
> access NGA seeks to accomplish two additional objectives. First, NGA
> will reduce the vulnerability of critical navigation data on the
> Internet. Second, it will limit/eliminate unfettered access to that
> data by organizations and individuals intent on causing harm.
> In conclusion, with the accomplishment of this proposed action NGA
> aims to protect the sources and integrity of its data, honor its
> bilateral agreements restricting non-governmental use, avoid
> competition with commercial interests, and allow NGA to focus on its
> primary customers and mission, supporting the Department of Defense.
>
>
> [[Page 67547]]
>
>
> Dated: November 12, 2004.
> Jeannette Owings-Ballard,
> OSD Federal Register Liaison Officer, Department of Defense.
> [FR Doc. 04-25631 Filed 11-17-04; 8:45 am]
>
> BILLING CODE 5001-06-P
>
>
> --
> Shane Partain
> http://worldaerodata.com/
>
>
> ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet
News==----
> http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! >100,000
Newsgroups
> ---= East/West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =---

[Nathan Young]

On Thu, 18 Nov 2004 10:49:51 -0500, Shane Partain
> wrote:

----------------------------------------------------
>
>DEPARTMENT OF DEFENSE
>
>Office of the Secretary
>
>
>Announcement of Intent To Initiate the Process To Remove
>Aeronautical Information From Public Sale and Distribution
>
>AGENCY: National Geospatial-Intelligence Agency (NGA), Department of
>Defense.


ARGGHH! This kind of stuff burns me up. It sounds like Mayor Daley's
excuse for removing Meigs... Just mention it is for safety and then
do whatever you want.

This one is even more asinine because the data is already out in the
public domain, and anyone could get the data via Jep or whoever if
they wanted.

Reading further - the announcement does mention the REAL reason:
"...upholding terms of bi-lateral geospatial data-sharing agreements;
avoiding competition with commercial interests"

It is a shame that our government buys the equipment, installs the
equipment, maintains databases of it's condition, location, etc...,
and then (probably due to lobbyists) cannot make it available back to
the taxpayer and end users.

-Nathan

[Paul Tomblin]

In a previous article, Nathan Young > said:
>Reading further - the announcement does mention the REAL reason:
>"...upholding terms of bi-lateral geospatial data-sharing agreements;
>avoiding competition with commercial interests"
>
>It is a shame that our government buys the equipment, installs the
>equipment, maintains databases of it's condition, location, etc...,
>and then (probably due to lobbyists) cannot make it available back to
>the taxpayer and end users.

Actually, rumour has it that they were getting sued by a company that
provides aviation data in Australia because they were providing Australian
data. In order to prevent any further lawsuits, they decided to yank the
data. In the future, Government users will be able access DAFIF data for
the US only, and the rest of us will get squat.


--
Paul Tomblin > http://xcski.com/blogs/pt/
I hate mornings. I know they hate me back, too.
-- Joel Gluth

[Shane Partain]

> avoiding competition with commercial interests"
>

You know, it's seems like they *are* competing with commercial interests
-- giving an unfair advantage to the Government contractors by
removing a data source from the public that has been around since the
'40s. I wonder what kind of business ties the people that pushed this
through have.

Then there are the many (hundreds?) of existing products that use DAFIF
as source data. I'm sure this is going to put a lot of people out of
business.

But, they're also doing it for our safety...

> preventing unfettered access to air facility data by those intending
> harm to the United States, its interests or allies;

I wonder what kind of effect it will have on safety to take away the
only source of global public domain aeronautical data. Reducing the
availability of up-to-date planning info can't be good.

--
Shane Partain
http://worldaerodata.com/


----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==----
http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! >100,000 Newsgroups
---= East/West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =---

[Dennis]

I highly doubt this will actually take effect.. This WILL cause many
companies their business, and its a safe bet the number will be in the
thousands. Jepp is already known for raping people on prices, they want
$500 a year to include their data in your software per copy! Not to mention
it will cost lives because people simply will fly with outdated data due to
the high costs Jepp charges.

In my eyes, this will destroy aviation safety, destroy our aviation
infustructure, destroy businesses and some of us will pay for it with our
lives. I know some pilots that already fly with outdate data in their GPS's
because of Jepp's $30 a month charge. Just about any flight planning
software either PC, handheld or online depends on this data. Imagine the
fallout from this? I for one will do my part and have already contacted
people at the NGA and the FAA with inquiries on how they intend to pull this
off. If I get any answers, I'll let people know. But in the mean time,
everyone should do their part as well and start sending emails, letters,
faxes and phone calls to anyone who will listen, a good start would be to
your congressmen and to the AOPA.

This should go down in history as the most stupid thing our government has
ever done. The impact this will have on worldwide aviation is equivalent to
a terrorist attack on the world.. Soon, no doubt, will be to outlaw general
aviation because it could be used for terrorist attacks.. Very sad day for
us all and one step closer to a police state.

Maybe its time to exercise our constitutional right to install a new
government? Clearly ours is working against us.

Dennis.

[Dean Wilkinson]

Nice post Dennis.

I believe that the only flight planners on the market right now that use
Jeppesen data are Jeppesen's Flitestar and the AOPA Online planner which is
provided under contract by Jeppesen.

Flitesoft, Destination Direct, Aeroplanner, AirPlan, Voyager, the EAA
Planner (provided by Aeroplanner) and FlightPrep are flight planning apps
that all use DAFIF data.

I believe that virtually every Pocket PC moving map application relies on
DAFIF data. This includes Anywhere Map, NavGPS, MountainScope, NavAir, and
several others.

I wonder if perhaps Jeppesen didn't lobby the government to have this action
taken to recapture their monopoly position as a flight data provider. It
will certainly have the desired effect of taking out their competition, and
bring those few that survive groveling at their door to pony up large sums
of money for their data.

The ultimate effect will be that the number of products available on the
market will dwindle, and prices of the remaining products will rise. This
won't be due to natural selection from normal market forces, but from the
chokehold that Jeppesen will be able to exert on the industry. In the end,
it will be the consumer pilots who lose.

This data has been available so far due to a wonderful piece of legislation
called the Freedom of Information Act. It appears that our government is in
the process of dismantling the Freedom of Information Act along with other
freedoms that we have enjoyed in the name of security.

I certainly hope that this proposal gets shot down. I would even settle or
a compromise in which users of the DAFIF are allowed to pay a reasonable
licensing fee to have access to the data, and doing this could provide a
means by which the NGA could provide payment to those forgeign bodies that
want fees for their data. The fact that the Australian data provider want
to sue is assinine because they don't provide their data in electronic
format... you have to buy it on paper! How worthless is that? This is true
of Nav Canada as well... they don't sell digital data, only paper data.

Dean Wilkinson

[Peter Clark]

On Fri, 19 Nov 2004 12:30:59 GMT, "Dennis" > wrote:

>I highly doubt this will actually take effect.. This WILL cause many
>companies their business, and its a safe bet the number will be in the
>thousands. Jepp is already known for raping people on prices, they want
>$500 a year to include their data in your software per copy! Not to mention
>it will cost lives because people simply will fly with outdated data due to
>the high costs Jepp charges.

So Microsoft is eating $450/copy of their ~$50 Flight Simulator which
contains Jepp navdata? And they're then paying $500/year/copy of FS
sold thereafter?

[Paul Tomblin]

In a previous article, "Dean Wilkinson" > said:
>Flitesoft, Destination Direct, Aeroplanner, AirPlan, Voyager, the EAA
>Planner (provided by Aeroplanner) and FlightPrep are flight planning apps
>that all use DAFIF data.
>
>I believe that virtually every Pocket PC moving map application relies on
>DAFIF data. This includes Anywhere Map, NavGPS, MountainScope, NavAir, and
>several others.

Let's not forget CoPilot, GPSPilot, AeroCalc, and non-aviation GPSes that
can use my GPX data.


--
Paul Tomblin > http://xcski.com/blogs/pt/
`I was all fired up to write a big rant, but instead found apathy to be a
more worthwhile solution.' --- Ashley Penney

[Dennis]

LOL!! Flight Simmers crack me up sometimes..

Dennis

"Peter Clark" > wrote in message
...
> On Fri, 19 Nov 2004 12:30:59 GMT, "Dennis" > wrote:
>
>>I highly doubt this will actually take effect.. This WILL cause many
>>companies their business, and its a safe bet the number will be in the
>>thousands. Jepp is already known for raping people on prices, they want
>>$500 a year to include their data in your software per copy! Not to
>>mention
>>it will cost lives because people simply will fly with outdated data due
>>to
>>the high costs Jepp charges.
>
> So Microsoft is eating $450/copy of their ~$50 Flight Simulator which
> contains Jepp navdata? And they're then paying $500/year/copy of FS
> sold thereafter?
>

[Dennis]

Well, this is the response I received (I'm still waiting for the AOPA to
respond, the FAA and my congressmen)

First reply:

> Thank you for the comment/inquiry regarding the proposal to remove NGA's
> aeronautical products from public sale and distribution on 1 October 2005.
>
> In answer to your specific question, the proposed action does not provide
> access to any of NGA's aeronautical products/publications to public,
> private, or commercial interests. Beginning on 1 October 2005, NGA's
> digital and hardcopy aeronautical publications/products will only be
> available to Department of Defense and governmental end users.
>
> Please direct any follow-up comments or questions to the undersigned.
> Thank
> you.
>
>
> Respectfully yours,
>
> Joseph S. Jarvis
> Aeronautical Program Officer
> National Geospatial-Intelligence Agency
> Aeronautical Division, MS L-27
> 3838 Vogel Road
> Arnold MO 63010-6238
>
>


Then Second when I asked how to become a contractor to the government:

> We are not disputing your assertion that some U.S. government personnel
> use
> your services; however, NGA remains the official source of flight planning
> and air navigation material for those users and they will continue to have
> access to its aeronautical publications/products through the government
> distribution system.
> The intent of the action proposed in the Federal Register Notice is to
> restrict NGA's aeronautical information, in all its forms, to government
> use, regardless of whether it is domestic or foreign coverage. It will
> not
> be available in any form for dissemination, or as a foundation for second-
> or third-party enhancements or exploitation.
>
> The contractors that receive NGA's aeronautical data are those who require
> the material to support, or facilitate, the services they are contracted
> to
> provide to the government. Examples would be R&D projects, charter/cargo
> airlift operations, air traffic services, etc. I don't know the process
> for
> obtaining government contracts, but information should be available on the
> Internet.
>
> I hope this answers your questions concerning the proposal. Please feel
> free to contact me any time.
>
> Sincerely,
>
> Joseph S. Jarvis
> Aeronautical Program Officer
> National Geospatial-Intelligence Agency
> Aeronautical Division, MS L-27
> 3838 Vogel Road
> Arnold MO 63010-6238

[Peter Clark]

What's funny? You're the one who made the statement that Jep charges
the software publisher 500/yr/copy recurring for each copy of the
database (apparently regardless of updates or whether the end user
continues to use the program) and I asked a logical question since MS
uses Jepp data and doesn't have a price point anywhere near $500/copy.

And the $800 or so /yr for updates I pay King for my 172's Jepp
derived KLN94 and MFD datacards isn't because I'm a simmer.

On Fri, 19 Nov 2004 22:59:02 GMT, "Dennis" > wrote:

>LOL!! Flight Simmers crack me up sometimes..
>
>Dennis
>
>"Peter Clark" > wrote in message
...
>> On Fri, 19 Nov 2004 12:30:59 GMT, "Dennis" > wrote:
>>
>>>I highly doubt this will actually take effect.. This WILL cause many
>>>companies their business, and its a safe bet the number will be in the
>>>thousands. Jepp is already known for raping people on prices, they want
>>>$500 a year to include their data in your software per copy! Not to
>>>mention
>>>it will cost lives because people simply will fly with outdated data due
>>>to
>>>the high costs Jepp charges.
>>
>> So Microsoft is eating $450/copy of their ~$50 Flight Simulator which
>> contains Jepp navdata? And they're then paying $500/year/copy of FS
>> sold thereafter?
>>
>

[Dennis]

Using a "game" as a comparison to my statement was quite funny.. at least
when I thought you were trying to be..

So.. when you purchase Microsoft Flight Sim you get monthly data updates
from Jepp for free? and current, legal for flight data? Crap! I'll make a
trip to CompUSA tomorrow..

Yes, Jepp charges a software Vendor a flat fee of $500 which includes a year
of updates for each product they sell regardless if the user wants cycle
updates or not. That is why you don't see many vendors offering Jepp
outside of the big manufacturers that can afford to negotiate better deals
through volume sales.

Dennis

"Peter Clark" > wrote in message
...
> What's funny? You're the one who made the statement that Jep charges
> the software publisher 500/yr/copy recurring for each copy of the
> database (apparently regardless of updates or whether the end user
> continues to use the program) and I asked a logical question since MS
> uses Jepp data and doesn't have a price point anywhere near $500/copy.
>
> And the $800 or so /yr for updates I pay King for my 172's Jepp
> derived KLN94 and MFD datacards isn't because I'm a simmer.
>
> On Fri, 19 Nov 2004 22:59:02 GMT, "Dennis" > wrote:
>
>>LOL!! Flight Simmers crack me up sometimes..
>>
>>Dennis
>>
>>"Peter Clark" > wrote in message
...
>>> On Fri, 19 Nov 2004 12:30:59 GMT, "Dennis" > wrote:
>>>
>>>>I highly doubt this will actually take effect.. This WILL cause many
>>>>companies their business, and its a safe bet the number will be in the
>>>>thousands. Jepp is already known for raping people on prices, they want
>>>>$500 a year to include their data in your software per copy! Not to
>>>>mention
>>>>it will cost lives because people simply will fly with outdated data due
>>>>to
>>>>the high costs Jepp charges.
>>>
>>> So Microsoft is eating $450/copy of their ~$50 Flight Simulator which
>>> contains Jepp navdata? And they're then paying $500/year/copy of FS
>>> sold thereafter?
>>>
>>
>

[Larry Dighera]

On Fri, 19 Nov 2004 10:46:28 -0700, "Dean Wilkinson"
> wrote in
>::

>
>I wonder if perhaps Jeppesen didn't lobby the government to have this action
>taken to recapture their monopoly position as a flight data provider.

Recall, Boeing (Jeppesen's parent company) still has a lot of clout
with the Pentagon. Apparently all they have to do is offer a DOD
buyer a $250,000.00/year job in order to (almost) obtain a 23 billion
dollar contract.

[John T]

So how come the alphabet groups aren't raising a big stink about this?

John

[Peter Clark]

On Sat, 20 Nov 2004 03:57:37 GMT, "Dennis" > wrote:

>Using a "game" as a comparison to my statement was quite funny.. at least
>when I thought you were trying to be..
>
>So.. when you purchase Microsoft Flight Sim you get monthly data updates
>from Jepp for free? and current, legal for flight data? Crap! I'll make a
>trip to CompUSA tomorrow..
>
>Yes, Jepp charges a software Vendor a flat fee of $500 which includes a year
>of updates for each product they sell regardless if the user wants cycle
>updates or not. That is why you don't see many vendors offering Jepp
>outside of the big manufacturers that can afford to negotiate better deals
>through volume sales.

OK, so leaving out the arrangement that Microsoft has with Jepp (it
would be nice if they'd make some sort of update arrangement though,
but I digress)...

So, you're saying the system is such that Jepp makes the product
vendor give them a list of subscribers and charges them
$500/user/year? Seems like King has a huge discount then at $380/yr
for KLN94 downloaded updates, which is their retail price after they
get and then post-process the data for their equipment, verify it, and
get it on the website (which also has to include some markup for the
cost of processing and releasing the file, having people who handle
1800 calls, etc). How does Jepp handle the situation of people who
only update randomly, or quarterly? Get a list monthly? The King
system basically boils down to "you have x downloads, use them
whenever you want - consecutively, every other month, once a year for
the next x years, whatever". It seems to me that a license fee per
product would be more sensible for Jepp "we'll license you to make
updates available for product x, $20k/year please" (a-la what I was
assuming with the Microsoft deal - one time fee, regardless of copies,
or even what a normal vendor software update arrangement would be -
a/la Cisco) rather than the nightmare of attempting to administer a
system of a per-cycle/per-user fee, where it seems the vendor will be
charged even if the end user doesn't collect their update, but I
admittedly have no knowledge of the internal workings of a Jepp source
electronic data license, I haven't had to try and license with them
for source data rather than the packaged end-user product.

I have no qualms with the view (and fully agree) that they're
expensive, monopolies are bad, and since they get their data from the
source originators (like the NOS, etc) we should also, at a minimum,
be able to get directly from NOS in an electronic form the source US
data for low/no cost similar to the way they distribute approach
plates now - free website, pretty cheap CD-ROM subscription, or pretty
cheap printed book.

>Dennis
>
>"Peter Clark" > wrote in message
...
>> What's funny? You're the one who made the statement that Jep charges
>> the software publisher 500/yr/copy recurring for each copy of the
>> database (apparently regardless of updates or whether the end user
>> continues to use the program) and I asked a logical question since MS
>> uses Jepp data and doesn't have a price point anywhere near $500/copy.
>>
>> And the $800 or so /yr for updates I pay King for my 172's Jepp
>> derived KLN94 and MFD datacards isn't because I'm a simmer.
>>
>> On Fri, 19 Nov 2004 22:59:02 GMT, "Dennis" > wrote:
>>
>>>LOL!! Flight Simmers crack me up sometimes..
>>>
>>>Dennis
>>>
>>>"Peter Clark" > wrote in message
...
>>>> On Fri, 19 Nov 2004 12:30:59 GMT, "Dennis" > wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>I highly doubt this will actually take effect.. This WILL cause many
>>>>>companies their business, and its a safe bet the number will be in the
>>>>>thousands. Jepp is already known for raping people on prices, they want
>>>>>$500 a year to include their data in your software per copy! Not to
>>>>>mention
>>>>>it will cost lives because people simply will fly with outdated data due
>>>>>to
>>>>>the high costs Jepp charges.
>>>>
>>>> So Microsoft is eating $450/copy of their ~$50 Flight Simulator which
>>>> contains Jepp navdata? And they're then paying $500/year/copy of FS
>>>> sold thereafter?
>>>>
>>>
>>
>

[Shane Partain]

Peter Clark wrote:
> I have no qualms with the view (and fully agree) that they're
> expensive, monopolies are bad, and since they get their data from the
> source originators (like the NOS, etc) we should also, at a minimum,
> be able to get directly from NOS in an electronic form the source US
> data for low/no cost similar to the way they distribute approach
> plates now - free website, pretty cheap CD-ROM subscription, or pretty
> cheap printed book.
>

Actually, you can purchase source data from the FAA, the main database
is called the National Flight Database:
http://naco.faa.gov/index.asp?xml=naco/catalog/charts/digital/nfd

The problem is, unlike the NGA Publications (FLIP, DAFIF, ONC and TPC
charts, etc.), the FAA data only covers the US. So, when the NGA stuff
is gone, there will still be plenty of US info. But, if you're in
another country...

--
Shane Partain
http://worldaerodata.com/


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[Peter Clark]

On Sat, 20 Nov 2004 11:26:11 -0500, Shane Partain
> wrote:

>Actually, you can purchase source data from the FAA, the main database
>is called the National Flight Database:
>http://naco.faa.gov/index.asp?xml=naco/catalog/charts/digital/nfd
>
>The problem is, unlike the NGA Publications (FLIP, DAFIF, ONC and TPC
>charts, etc.), the FAA data only covers the US. So, when the NGA stuff
>is gone, there will still be plenty of US info. But, if you're in
>another country...

OK, I had heard/read a while back that NOS were thinking about it, but
I didn't know it was complete. Of course, converting that to useful
data for the devices still needs to either be done by the
manufacturer, or a program published which the end user can run and
then upload processed data to the device, but either should be
relatively trivial since the DAFIF data needs to be processed too.

However, if the NOS is directly publishing the data in electronic form
to the public, doesn't that undermine most of the DOD people's
arguments? All that's really left is foreign source data publishers
who contend the DOD is exceeding the copyright on the foreign source
data. Since the US data is available to the public, they could just
publish a DAFIF US-only dataset to the public and the full database to
the authorized internal users. It's not like the data isn't already
coded as to what country the fix/navaid/airport/whatever is in. It
likely boils down to it being easier for them to just stop publishing
their database than creating two databases and fighting lawsuits, and
the rest of the arguments being (as usual in business) fluff.

It still doesn't address how to get the foreign country data, but
shouldn't local users be working with their local authorities to make
the data electronically available in the public domain like the US so
it could be merged with the other public domain datasets to
effectively replace the DAFIF world dataset?

[Shane Partain]

Peter Clark wrote:
> However, if the NOS is directly publishing the data in electronic form
> to the public, doesn't that undermine most of the DOD people's
> arguments? All that's really left is foreign source data publishers
> who contend the DOD is exceeding the copyright on the foreign source
> data. Since the US data is available to the public, they could just
> publish a DAFIF US-only dataset to the public and the full database to
> the authorized internal users. It's not like the data isn't already
> coded as to what country the fix/navaid/airport/whatever is in. It
> likely boils down to it being easier for them to just stop publishing
> their database than creating two databases and fighting lawsuits, and
> the rest of the arguments being (as usual in business) fluff.
>

To damn many blood-thirsty IP lawyers.

> It still doesn't address how to get the foreign country data, but
> shouldn't local users be working with their local authorities to make
> the data electronically available in the public domain like the US so
> it could be merged with the other public domain datasets to
> effectively replace the DAFIF world dataset?
>

This may be the only answer -- a whole new source. There are probably
plenty of enlightened individuals and organizations willing to share
their data.

--
Shane Partain
http://worldaerodata.com/


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[Paul Tomblin]

In a previous article, Shane Partain > said:
>This may be the only answer -- a whole new source. There are probably
>plenty of enlightened individuals and organizations willing to share
>their data.

Not likely. I've had a bunch of people volunteer to prepare data for my
CoPilot databases for their country, with the exception of one, they all
give me one or two updates, and then stop.


--
Paul Tomblin > http://xcski.com/blogs/pt/
"The day Microsoft makes something that doesn't suck is probably the day they
start making vacuum cleaners" - Ernst Jan Plugge

[Shane Partain]

Paul Tomblin wrote:
> In a previous article, Shane Partain > said:
>
>>This may be the only answer -- a whole new source. There are probably
>>plenty of enlightened individuals and organizations willing to share
>>their data.
>
>
> Not likely. I've had a bunch of people volunteer to prepare data for my
> CoPilot databases for their country, with the exception of one, they all
> give me one or two updates, and then stop.
>
>

Like the failed open source software model? :-)

--
Shane Partain
http://worldaerodata.com/


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[Paul Tomblin]

In a previous article, Shane Partain > said:
>Paul Tomblin wrote:
>> Not likely. I've had a bunch of people volunteer to prepare data for my
>> CoPilot databases for their country, with the exception of one, they all
>> give me one or two updates, and then stop.
>Like the failed open source software model? :-)

Nothing failed about CoPilot itself (not open source, but still free) or
my waypoint generator.


--
Paul Tomblin > http://xcski.com/blogs/pt/
God is real, unless declared as an integer.

[Shane Partain]

I was talking about open source in general (which is obviously *not* a
failure).

Paul Tomblin wrote:
> In a previous article, Shane Partain > said:
>
>>Paul Tomblin wrote:
>>
>>>Not likely. I've had a bunch of people volunteer to prepare data for my
>>>CoPilot databases for their country, with the exception of one, they all
>>>give me one or two updates, and then stop.
>>
>>Like the failed open source software model? :-)
>
>
> Nothing failed about CoPilot itself (not open source, but still free) or
> my waypoint generator.
>
>


--
Shane Partain
http://worldaerodata.com/


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[Dean Wilkinson]

Shane,

>
> Actually, you can purchase source data from the FAA, the main database
> is called the National Flight Database:
> http://naco.faa.gov/index.asp?xml=naco/catalog/charts/digital/nfd
>
> The problem is, unlike the NGA Publications (FLIP, DAFIF, ONC and TPC
> charts, etc.), the FAA data only covers the US. So, when the NGA stuff
> is gone, there will still be plenty of US info. But, if you're in
> another country...

The real limitation of the NFD data is that it does not include Class
B, Class C, and Class D airspace boundaries. It does include special
use airspace boundaries, but my product needs both. Only the DAFIF
provides both...

Dean Wilkinson
http://www.razorsedgesoft.com

[Shane Partain]

Dean Wilkinson wrote:
>
> The real limitation of the NFD data is that it does not include Class
> B, Class C, and Class D airspace boundaries. It does include special
> use airspace boundaries, but my product needs both. Only the DAFIF
> provides both...

I wasn't aware of that. There has been some talk of providing a US-only
DAFIF. But it still sucks that they would be removing the only public
domain global data source.

>
> Dean Wilkinson
> http://www.razorsedgesoft.com

--
Shane Partain
http://worldaerodata.com/


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[Dennis]

I have been testing the CoPilot stuff.. not to bad..

Dennis
MyAirplane.com

"Paul Tomblin" > wrote in message
...
> In a previous article, Shane Partain > said:
>>Paul Tomblin wrote:
>>> Not likely. I've had a bunch of people volunteer to prepare data for my
>>> CoPilot databases for their country, with the exception of one, they all
>>> give me one or two updates, and then stop.
>>Like the failed open source software model? :-)
>
> Nothing failed about CoPilot itself (not open source, but still free) or
> my waypoint generator.
>
>
> --
> Paul Tomblin > http://xcski.com/blogs/pt/
> God is real, unless declared as an integer.