Non Standard ATC Phraseology

[In Soo]

Hi pilots, I am new to the group and wanted to see if you guys hear
Non-standard ATC phraseology around places where you fly.
Our tower at Chander, AZ usually request us to report 2 mile base when
entering a traffic pattern. I thought the standard pattern entry was 45 to
downwind or final. If you have any non-standard phraseology or clearance,
can you please let the group know?

In Soo Hwang

[Newps]

In Soo wrote:
> Hi pilots, I am new to the group and wanted to see if you guys hear
> Non-standard ATC phraseology around places where you fly.
> Our tower at Chander, AZ usually request us to report 2 mile base when
> entering a traffic pattern. I thought the standard pattern entry was 45 to
> downwind or final. If you have any non-standard phraseology or clearance,
> can you please let the group know?

There is no standard entry at a towered airport. The tower will tell
you how to enter the pattern. If he asks for a report that is usually
because he doesn't have radar.

[Slick]

From what I have assumed; At a towered airport, the controllers are watching
out for you, so there doesn't have to be any pattern. The reason we normally
fly a pattern is so that everyone knows where to look to be safe. I've been
to a lot of different towered airports that have given me straight in or
single turn to final procedures. Of course I normally fly during low volume
times.
"Newps" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> In Soo wrote:
> > Hi pilots, I am new to the group and wanted to see if you guys hear
> > Non-standard ATC phraseology around places where you fly.
> > Our tower at Chander, AZ usually request us to report 2 mile base when
> > entering a traffic pattern. I thought the standard pattern entry was 45
to
> > downwind or final. If you have any non-standard phraseology or
clearance,
> > can you please let the group know?
>
> There is no standard entry at a towered airport. The tower will tell
> you how to enter the pattern. If he asks for a report that is usually
> because he doesn't have radar.




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[PJ Hunt]

There is still a pattern and it is the same as every airport, with a few odd
exceptions for various reasons... But specifically it is the 'entry' that
the controllers will call out that will be different from your standard non
towered 45 degree entry. (And even that is not mandated, but highly
suggested.)

PJ

============================================
Here's to the duck who swam a lake and never lost a feather,
May sometime another year, we all be back together.
JJW
============================================

"Slick" > wrote in message ...
> From what I have assumed; At a towered airport, the controllers are
watching
> out for you, so there doesn't have to be any pattern. The reason we
normally
> fly a pattern is so that everyone knows where to look to be safe. I've
been
> to a lot of different towered airports that have given me straight in or
> single turn to final procedures. Of course I normally fly during low
volume
> times.
> "Newps" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> >
> > In Soo wrote:
> > > Hi pilots, I am new to the group and wanted to see if you guys hear
> > > Non-standard ATC phraseology around places where you fly.
> > > Our tower at Chander, AZ usually request us to report 2 mile base when
> > > entering a traffic pattern. I thought the standard pattern entry was
45
> to
> > > downwind or final. If you have any non-standard phraseology or
> clearance,
> > > can you please let the group know?
> >
> > There is no standard entry at a towered airport. The tower will tell
> > you how to enter the pattern. If he asks for a report that is usually
> > because he doesn't have radar.
>
>
>
>
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[Nathan Young]

On Thu, 18 Nov 2004 17:00:56 -0700, "In Soo" >
wrote:

>Hi pilots, I am new to the group and wanted to see if you guys hear
>Non-standard ATC phraseology around places where you fly.
>Our tower at Chander, AZ usually request us to report 2 mile base when
>entering a traffic pattern. I thought the standard pattern entry was 45 to
>downwind or final. If you have any non-standard phraseology or clearance,
>can you please let the group know?

It is definitely common to have a tower controller ask you to join the
pattern on a base, and report X miles out. Very common at class Ds
without radar.

[Mark Kolber]

On Thu, 18 Nov 2004 20:46:18 -0500, "Slick" > wrote:

>From what I have assumed; At a towered airport, the controllers are watching
>out for you,

Probably not meant that way, but that's a potentially dangerous
thought. At towered airports, ATC is controlling the sequencing of
traffic to avoid airplane having unfriendly meetings on the runway.

But they are not "watching out for you." You are PIC. =You= are
watching out for you. There has been more than one accident and many
near ones caused by a pilot thinking that vigilance was not necessary
because of those extra eyes. That was brought home to me one day when
tower tried to turn me into the path on an incoming CitationJet.


Mark Kolber
APA/Denver, Colorado
www.midlifeflight.com
======================
email? Remove ".no.spam"

[Andrew Gideon]

Nathan Young wrote:

> It is definitely common to have a tower controller ask you to join the
> pattern on a base, and report X miles out. Very common at class Ds
> without radar.

For example, consider CDW. If they're using 22, and you're coming in from
the north...

If it is very quite, you'll get a straight-in.

If it is a little busy, you'll get a base.

If it is very busy, you'll be told to join the downwind.

- Andrew

[Kyler Laird]

"In Soo" > writes:

>If you have any non-standard phraseology or clearance,
>can you please let the group know?

Which standard? ICAO standards are routinely ignored around here (USA).

--kyler

[John Galban]

"In Soo" > wrote in message news:<WIand.17773$233.12391@okepread05>...
> Hi pilots, I am new to the group and wanted to see if you guys hear
> Non-standard ATC phraseology around places where you fly.
> Our tower at Chander, AZ usually request us to report 2 mile base when
> entering a traffic pattern. I thought the standard pattern entry was 45 to
> downwind or final. If you have any non-standard phraseology or clearance,
> can you please let the group know?
>
I fly out of Chandler and get that request often (coming in from the
South to runway 4). The phraseology is fine. I believe you're
applying the recommended 45 degree entry at uncontrolled airports to a
towered field. At KCHD, they will ask you to join the pattern in
whatever way is most convenient for you and them. For example, when
runway 4 is in use, you will almost always get a straight-in approach
(with a request to report 2 miles out), if you initially report from
the southwest. This is quite standard procedure for a tower.

One thing to keep in mind, inbound traffic from the north or south
and asked to enter a downwind, they expect you to fly a 45 to the
downwind. I don't know if this is a standard procedure, but it is
often published in the "Tower Talk" section of the airport newsletter.

John Galban=====>N4BQ (PA28-180)

[John Galban]

Newps > wrote in message >...
>
> If he asks for a report that is usually
> because he doesn't have radar.

KCHD almost always asks for a 2 mile report on any leg except the
downwind entry (where they tell you to report turning downwind). They
do have a D-Brite radar display. I've asked tower personnel about it
and they're just trying to make sure they don't forget you. Slow
training traffic often reports in from 8 miles out and it can be
awhile before they actually enter the pattern environment.

John Galban=====>N4BQ (PA28-180)

[Newps]

John Galban wrote:


>
> One thing to keep in mind, inbound traffic from the north or south
> and asked to enter a downwind, they expect you to fly a 45 to the
> downwind. I don't know if this is a standard procedure, but it is
> often published in the "Tower Talk" section of the airport newsletter.

That would be a local thing. At the two places I have worked, one being
where UND lives, if I ask you to enter a right downwind you better not
have been flying outside the old ATA to suddenly come zipping in at
midfield. If I want you at mid field I will tell you to enter a
midfield downwind.

[Newps]

John Galban wrote:

> Newps > wrote in message >...
>
>> If he asks for a report that is usually
>>because he doesn't have radar.
>
>
> KCHD almost always asks for a 2 mile report on any leg except the
> downwind entry (where they tell you to report turning downwind). They
> do have a D-Brite radar display. I've asked tower personnel about it
> and they're just trying to make sure they don't forget you. Slow
> training traffic often reports in from 8 miles out and it can be
> awhile before they actually enter the pattern environment.

Yes, that way you can go back to the card game and wait for his call.

[Cub Driver]

On Fri, 19 Nov 2004 15:05:55 -0700, Newps > wrote:

>If I want you at mid field I will tell you to enter a
>midfield downwind.

And this is an instruction to cross the field at pattern altitude?

all the best -- Dan Ford
email: (put Cubdriver in subject line)

Warbird's Forum www.warbirdforum.com
Piper Cub Forum www.pipercubforum.com
the blog www.danford.net

[Cub Driver]

On 19 Nov 2004 13:31:07 -0800, (John Galban)
wrote:

> KCHD almost always asks for a 2 mile report on any leg except the
>downwind entry (where they tell you to report turning downwind).

Okay, that brings up a question that bugs me. KPSM says: "Report left
base." Now, I could go onto that left base five miles out, and it
would take me five minutes to reach the extended centerline.

Where does KPSM want me to report? He knows that I will be at 1,000
AGL, but that's all. My own feeling is that I should report at a
45-degree angle, or one mile from the extended centerline if I am
flying a one-mile pattern, two miles if a two-mile pattern. Is that
about right?

all the best -- Dan Ford
email: (put Cubdriver in subject line)

Warbird's Forum www.warbirdforum.com
Piper Cub Forum www.pipercubforum.com
the blog www.danford.net

[Newps]

Cub Driver wrote:
> On Fri, 19 Nov 2004 15:05:55 -0700, Newps > wrote:
>
>
>>If I want you at mid field I will tell you to enter a
>>midfield downwind.
>
>
> And this is an instruction to cross the field at pattern altitude?

No, enter the pattern by flying right at midfield then turn downwind.

[Rosspilot]

This thread has nothing to do with phraseology.
www.Rosspilot.com

[Jay Beckman]

"Cub Driver" > wrote in message
...
>
> Okay, that brings up a question that bugs me. KPSM says: "Report left
> base." Now, I could go onto that left base five miles out, and it
> would take me five minutes to reach the extended centerline.
>

Prescott (KPRC) did this to me last week. I was easily five miles out when
the tower told me to enter left base for RWY 21L but they didn't say how far
out to call it. They gave me a traffic advisory and when I said I had the
traffic in sight, they just told me to follow that traffic to the runway.

>
> Where does KPSM want me to report? He knows that I will be at 1,000
> AGL, but that's all. My own feeling is that I should report at a
> 45-degree angle, or one mile from the extended centerline if I am
> flying a one-mile pattern, two miles if a two-mile pattern. Is that
> about right?
>
> all the best -- Dan Ford
> email: (put Cubdriver in subject line)

Would they just want you to report at the same location as if you had turned
downwind to base?

This strikes me as being very close in for a base entry!!

Dunno about John Galiban, but I can't remember Chandler ever giving me a
base entry without requesting that I report at "X miles." They have,
however, given me a clearance to land before I've reached the point where
they wanted me to report (eg, I'm cleared to land at 3.5 miles out when they
wanted me to call a 2 mile base...)

Jay Beckman
Chandler, AZ
PP-ASEL

[RobsSanta]

"Jay Beckman" > wrote in message
news:aTAod.76522$SW3.14174@fed1read01...
> "Cub Driver" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > Okay, that brings up a question that bugs me. KPSM says: "Report left
> > base." Now, I could go onto that left base five miles out, and it
> > would take me five minutes to reach the extended centerline.
> >
>
> Prescott (KPRC) did this to me last week. I was easily five miles out
when
> the tower told me to enter left base for RWY 21L but they didn't say how
far
> out to call it. They gave me a traffic advisory and when I said I had the
> traffic in sight, they just told me to follow that traffic to the runway.
>
> >
> > Where does KPSM want me to report? He knows that I will be at 1,000
> > AGL, but that's all. My own feeling is that I should report at a
> > 45-degree angle, or one mile from the extended centerline if I am
> > flying a one-mile pattern, two miles if a two-mile pattern. Is that
> > about right?
> >
> > all the best -- Dan Ford
> > email: (put Cubdriver in subject line)
>
> Would they just want you to report at the same location as if you had
turned
> downwind to base?
>
> This strikes me as being very close in for a base entry!!
>
> Dunno about John Galiban, but I can't remember Chandler ever giving me a
> base entry without requesting that I report at "X miles." They have,
> however, given me a clearance to land before I've reached the point where
> they wanted me to report (eg, I'm cleared to land at 3.5 miles out when
they
> wanted me to call a 2 mile base...)
>
> Jay Beckman
> Chandler, AZ
> PP-ASEL
>
>

Same as Falcon, usually request a 2 mile report but cleared to land long
before reaching that reporting point

Rob AZ

[Cub Driver]

On Mon, 22 Nov 2004 23:36:07 -0700, "Jay Beckman" >
wrote:

>Dunno about John Galiban, but I can't remember Chandler ever giving me a
>base entry without requesting that I report at "X miles."

Funnily enough, Chandler is the only towered field I've ever flown
from. (I have a recreational certificate and until September had to be
endorsed for each ATC field individually.) It drove me crazy because I
regularly had to deal with three frequencies, and the plane of course
had but two radios.

I'd be taking off and instructed to make a turn at 400 feet, much too
low by my way of thinking, and simultaneously to change freqs. I'd
scramble and scramble and finally breathlessly say: Six Two Echo is
with you! and behold! the same voice would come back. Why was I
changing freqs if I wasn't changing controllers? I found the radio
work more exhausting than the aerobatics!


all the best -- Dan Ford
email: (put Cubdriver in subject line)

Warbird's Forum www.warbirdforum.com
Piper Cub Forum www.pipercubforum.com
the blog www.danford.net

[Bill Denton]

My understanding is that while the basic model is for each "service"
(arrival, tower, departure, etc.) to have an individual controller and an
individual frequency for each, but that during low-traffic periods a single
controller may handle more than one service. However, he will continue to
use the frequency assigned to each service as that is the frequency listed
on charts, etc.





"Cub Driver" > wrote in message
...
> On Mon, 22 Nov 2004 23:36:07 -0700, "Jay Beckman" >
> wrote:
>
> >Dunno about John Galiban, but I can't remember Chandler ever giving me a
> >base entry without requesting that I report at "X miles."
>
> Funnily enough, Chandler is the only towered field I've ever flown
> from. (I have a recreational certificate and until September had to be
> endorsed for each ATC field individually.) It drove me crazy because I
> regularly had to deal with three frequencies, and the plane of course
> had but two radios.
>
> I'd be taking off and instructed to make a turn at 400 feet, much too
> low by my way of thinking, and simultaneously to change freqs. I'd
> scramble and scramble and finally breathlessly say: Six Two Echo is
> with you! and behold! the same voice would come back. Why was I
> changing freqs if I wasn't changing controllers? I found the radio
> work more exhausting than the aerobatics!
>
>
> all the best -- Dan Ford
> email: (put Cubdriver in subject line)
>
> Warbird's Forum www.warbirdforum.com
> Piper Cub Forum www.pipercubforum.com
> the blog www.danford.net

[John Galban]

Cub Driver > wrote in message >...
>
> I'd be taking off and instructed to make a turn at 400 feet, much too
> low by my way of thinking, and simultaneously to change freqs. I'd
> scramble and scramble and finally breathlessly say: Six Two Echo is
> with you! and behold! the same voice would come back. Why was I
> changing freqs if I wasn't changing controllers? I found the radio
> work more exhausting than the aerobatics!
>

First, make your turn when you're comfortable. I generally make my
1st turn at 600 ft. When the tower asks for an earlier turn, it's
almost always prefaced with "when able...". Unless they're requesting
an immediate manuver, you can take your time (just don't wait an
inordinately long time).

The reason you were changing frequencies is that there are separate
freqs. for the north and south runways. Although they may be run by
the same person when traffic is light, they are split when traffic
spikes up. This is not uncommon at airports that have a high level of
training activity. One minute slow, then next minute there can be a
dozen planes in the pattern. If you're already on the correct
frequency, you won't even know that the tower was split unless you get
the new controller. Otherwise, the controllers would have to figure
out who is on what freq. and get pilots to the right one before
splitting the tower.

Note : This is only done for traffic remaining in the pattern. If I'm
departing the north runway southbound, I'll keep the original north
runway frequency all the way out.

John Galban=====>N4BQ (PA28-180)