Accidents happen...

[Manuel]

Unfortunately accidents do happen, but it was the first time I had
somewhat to do with it. The airplane I usually fly with, a Piper Arrow
from the local flight school and FBO, crashed on landing during a
cross-country flight to Florence (Italy). The plane suddenly banked to
the left 10 feet over the runway, then struck the airport fence.

On board there were 3 pilots, all of them very experienced. 2 were badly
hurt and are still in hospital, but will eventually make it. The third
person on board "only" suffered a few fractures and already went home.

The airplane is wrecked, but fortunately nobody got killed. The cause
was either a windshear or sudden pilot incapacitation, but it's too
early to tell.

This event really struck me, you never think this can happen to you, or
at your FBO.

Sorry if that's not really a constructive post, I just had to tell
someone...

-Manuel
PPL(A) SEP


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[Larry Dighera]

On Mon, 22 Nov 2004 09:27:29 +0100, Manuel >
wrote in >::

>The cause
>was either a windshear or sudden pilot incapacitation, but it's too
>early to tell.

Is there a possibility that the cause may have been wake turbulence?

[Jay Honeck]

> Unfortunately accidents do happen, but it was the first time I had
> somewhat to do with it. The airplane I usually fly with, a Piper Arrow
> from the local flight school and FBO, crashed on landing during a
> cross-country flight to Florence (Italy). The plane suddenly banked to the
> left 10 feet over the runway, then struck the airport fence.

Just curious: Was he trying to do a "go around"?

There was an accident this week (somewhere in the States -- I can't remember
where) with a similar situation in a Piper Arrow.

The pilot had his in-laws and child on board, and was trying to land in a 25
knot gusty crosswind. It went very badly, he lost control trying to do a go
around, and they were all killed.

Aviation isn't all that difficult, but it is extremely unforgiving of poor
judgment or inattention.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[zatatime]

On Mon, 22 Nov 2004 12:50:30 GMT, "Jay Honeck"
> wrote:

>Aviation isn't all that difficult, but it is extremely unforgiving of poor
>judgment or inattention.


This is a good quote. Can I use it if I give you credit?

z

[Bob Fry]

zatatime > writes:

> On Mon, 22 Nov 2004 12:50:30 GMT, "Jay Honeck"
> > wrote:
>
> >Aviation isn't all that difficult, but it is extremely unforgiving of poor
> >judgment or inattention.
>
>
> This is a good quote. Can I use it if I give you credit?
>
> z

"Flying is not inherently dangerous, but to an even greater extent
than the sea, it is terribly unforgiving of carelessness, incapacity,
or neglect" - anon, quotation familiar to all aviators.

[Friedrich Ostertag]

Hi Bob,

> "Flying is not inherently dangerous, but to an even greater extent
> than the sea, it is terribly unforgiving of carelessness, incapacity,
> or neglect" - anon, quotation familiar to all aviators.

To which another anon has answered:

"Flying IS inherently dangerous. Only a well trained crew and a well
maintained aircraft can keep the risk at an acceptable level."

I like this. Applies to other things, too.

regards,
Friedrich

--
for personal email please remove "entfernen" from my adress

[Thomas Lembessis]

Jay, that's exactly what happened to the fellow who bought a Cherokee 180
that I almost bought. He botched a go around and ended up crashing into a
semi trailer in Michigan. He had a 90 degree, 35 knot crosswind. Upon
examining the wreckage, the NTSB found 40 deg. flaps selected.

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
news:qglod.135299$R05.89880@attbi_s53...
> > Unfortunately accidents do happen, but it was the first time I had
> > somewhat to do with it. The airplane I usually fly with, a Piper Arrow
> > from the local flight school and FBO, crashed on landing during a
> > cross-country flight to Florence (Italy). The plane suddenly banked to
the
> > left 10 feet over the runway, then struck the airport fence.
>
> Just curious: Was he trying to do a "go around"?
>
> There was an accident this week (somewhere in the States -- I can't
remember
> where) with a similar situation in a Piper Arrow.
>
> The pilot had his in-laws and child on board, and was trying to land in a
25
> knot gusty crosswind. It went very badly, he lost control trying to do a
go
> around, and they were all killed.
>
> Aviation isn't all that difficult, but it is extremely unforgiving of poor
> judgment or inattention.
> --
> Jay Honeck
> Iowa City, IA
> Pathfinder N56993
> www.AlexisParkInn.com
> "Your Aviation Destination"
>
>

[BTIZ]

and what is the published max demonstrated crosswind ??
less than 20knts in my guess..

but I agree.. 40 degree flaps in a cross wind is not a good idea..
even less so for a Cessna

BT

"Thomas Lembessis" > wrote in message
news:iLvod.15584$D26.12125@lakeread03...
> Jay, that's exactly what happened to the fellow who bought a Cherokee 180
> that I almost bought. He botched a go around and ended up crashing into a
> semi trailer in Michigan. He had a 90 degree, 35 knot crosswind. Upon
> examining the wreckage, the NTSB found 40 deg. flaps selected.
>
> "Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
> news:qglod.135299$R05.89880@attbi_s53...
>> > Unfortunately accidents do happen, but it was the first time I had
>> > somewhat to do with it. The airplane I usually fly with, a Piper Arrow
>> > from the local flight school and FBO, crashed on landing during a
>> > cross-country flight to Florence (Italy). The plane suddenly banked to
> the
>> > left 10 feet over the runway, then struck the airport fence.
>>
>> Just curious: Was he trying to do a "go around"?
>>
>> There was an accident this week (somewhere in the States -- I can't
> remember
>> where) with a similar situation in a Piper Arrow.
>>
>> The pilot had his in-laws and child on board, and was trying to land in a
> 25
>> knot gusty crosswind. It went very badly, he lost control trying to do a
> go
>> around, and they were all killed.
>>
>> Aviation isn't all that difficult, but it is extremely unforgiving of
>> poor
>> judgment or inattention.
>> --
>> Jay Honeck
>> Iowa City, IA
>> Pathfinder N56993
>> www.AlexisParkInn.com
>> "Your Aviation Destination"
>>
>>
>
>

[Gerald Sylvester]

BTIZ wrote:

> and what is the published max demonstrated crosswind ??
> less than 20knts in my guess..

17 or 18 knots. In 10 knot X-wind which is not uncommon
at my airport, using full flaps makes landing "interesting."


Gerald

[C Kingsbury]

"BTIZ" > wrote in message
news:VSwod.131876$bk1.3469@fed1read05...
> and what is the published max demonstrated crosswind ??
> less than 20knts in my guess..
>

I've landed my 172 in 30 knot crosswinds, as in 25g40 knot winds
perpendicular to the runway. Sure as hell not with more than one notch down,
though. Fun ride it was.

The number in the book is for a plane at gross weight with the engine at
idle. It's the number at which the rudder runs out of effectiveness to keep
the nose aligned with the runway. So you blow it over with the prop. Of
course if it's a short field and you're near gross, then you're going to be
a lot closer to what the book says. But a 15-kt crosswind is nothing for a
lightly-loaded plane as long as the pilot knows what he's doing.

-cwk.

[Jay Honeck]

>>Aviation isn't all that difficult, but it is extremely unforgiving of poor
>>judgment or inattention.
>
> This is a good quote. Can I use it if I give you credit?

Sure -- but, as others have pointed out, it's really a paraphrase.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Manuel]

Larry Dighera wrote:
> On Mon, 22 Nov 2004 09:27:29 +0100, Manuel >
> wrote in >::
>
> Is there a possibility that the cause may have been wake turbulence?
>


Apparently not: there were no other airplanes around before him.

-Manuel




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[Manuel]

Jay Honeck wrote:
>
> Just curious: Was he trying to do a "go around"?
>


Apparently yes ... actually, it was a bit more complicated than that.
Unfortunately I'm not supposed to share the other information I have
right now. I'll let you know when everything is over... thank you for
your replies!

-Manuel


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[Rolf Blom]

On 2004-11-22 20:20, Friedrich Ostertag wrote:
> Hi Bob,
>
>
>>"Flying is not inherently dangerous, but to an even greater extent
>>than the sea, it is terribly unforgiving of carelessness, incapacity,
>>or neglect" - anon, quotation familiar to all aviators.
>
>
> To which another anon has answered:
>
> "Flying IS inherently dangerous. Only a well trained crew and a well
> maintained aircraft can keep the risk at an acceptable level."
>
> I like this. Applies to other things, too.
>
> regards,
> Friedrich
>
> --
> for personal email please remove "entfernen" from my adress
>

Living is dangerous.
But no fear, you will be OK afterwards.

/JC (I think)

[CHANGE USERNAME TO westes]

"C Kingsbury" > wrote in message
ink.net...
> The number in the book is for a plane at gross weight with the engine at
> idle. It's the number at which the rudder runs out of effectiveness to
keep
> the nose aligned with the runway. So you blow it over with the prop. Of

How do you use prop on a single engine plane to improve alignment to the
runway? Rudder and ailerons I understand. And on a dual engine airplane I
understand how you could (in theory) use prop to improve alignment. But
how would you use prop in a single engine airplane?

--
Will
westes AT earthbroadcast.com

[Peter Duniho]

"CHANGE USERNAME TO westes" > wrote in
message ...
> [...] But how would you use prop in a single engine airplane?

I assume he means that with power on (rather than at idle), the prop
slipstream provides a some extra rudder authority.

[Michael]

"C Kingsbury" > wrote
> The number in the book is for a plane at gross weight with the engine at
> idle. It's the number at which the rudder runs out of effectiveness to keep
> the nose aligned with the runway.

Actually, no. It would make sense if that were the case, which is why
it's not :)

In reality, the max demonstrated crosswind component is at least 20%
of Vso - and above and beyond that, it's a compromise between what
legal and marketing want. It's certainly not the best the factory
test pilot can do, and depending on technique it need not be the best
you can do, but there is no guarantee that the max demonstrated
crosswind component will not be more (or less) than the plane can
handle by the wing-low method at short field approach speed. It's not
a certification requirement.

BTW, lightly loaded makes crosswind harder, not easier, because your
stall speed goes down, and thus the crosswind as a fraction of stall
speed goes up.

Michael

[Dylan Smith]

In article >, CHANGE USERNAME TO westes wrote:
> How do you use prop on a single engine plane to improve alignment to the
> runway? Rudder and ailerons I understand. And on a dual engine airplane I

In a tractor configured (i.e. engine and prop on the nose, single fin
directly in line with the fuselage and in the propwash) single engine
plane, at low speeds the propwash over the tail surfaces make the rudder
much more effective if you give the engine some power. Fly a taildragger
which has a free castoring tailwheel and useless brakes and you soon
learn how a quick 'goose' on the throttle can help you taxi around a
corner in a quartering tailwind.

--
Dylan Smith, Castletown, Isle of Man
Flying: http://www.dylansmith.net
Frontier Elite Universe: http://www.alioth.net
"Maintain thine airspeed, lest the ground come up and smite thee"

[Roger]

On Mon, 22 Nov 2004 09:27:29 +0100, Manuel >
wrote:

>Unfortunately accidents do happen, but it was the first time I had
>somewhat to do with it. The airplane I usually fly with, a Piper Arrow
>from the local flight school and FBO, crashed on landing during a
>cross-country flight to Florence (Italy). The plane suddenly banked to
>the left 10 feet over the runway, then struck the airport fence.
>
<snip>
>This event really struck me, you never think this can happen to you, or
>at your FBO.
>
>Sorry if that's not really a constructive post, I just had to tell
>someone...
>
First, I'm glad to hear every one is going to make it.

Actually I think the post is quite appropriate from a number of
angles.

Once things deviate from normal they can go to Hell unbelievably fast.

The flight is never over until you are parked.

I've seen planes depart from controlled flight and that slippery slope
is not only slippery and steep it gets steeper by the moment.

The points being, what ever the reason for the departure from
controlled flight it can happen at any time and without warning.
I've had the Deb stall in level flight at 5500 feet on a beautiful
clear day. I've seen a 172 on final get a bit slow, over correct
with power, and then turn it into a lawn dart. Fortunately no one was
even hurt but the plane was pretty much totaled. The wings even had
shoulders. I saw a Beech Mousekateer land with a slight down wind and
start to porpoise. Three times and out. He busted the nose gear off
out on the main runway right in front of a whole crowd of parents
waiting for their kids to go on "Young Eagles" rides. There sat that
poor old Musketeer with it's tail feathers sticking up in the air.

Never get complacent or relax your guard until the plane is parked.

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

>-Manuel
>PPL(A) SEP
>
>
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[Julian Scarfe]

"Bob Fry" > wrote in message
...

> "Flying is not inherently dangerous, but to an even greater extent
> than the sea, it is terribly unforgiving of carelessness, incapacity,
> or neglect" - anon, quotation familiar to all aviators.

Attributed to Capt A G Lamplugh, one of the founders of the British Aviation
Insurance Group.

Julian Scarfe

[CHANGE USERNAME TO westes]

"Roger" > wrote in message
...
> I've had the Deb stall in level flight at 5500 feet on a beautiful
> clear day.

Do you have any theories about what caused that one? I gather you were
not practicing stalls or slow flight?

--
Will
westes AT earthbroadcast.com

[C Kingsbury]

(Michael) wrote in message >...
> "C Kingsbury" > wrote
> > The number in the book is for a plane at gross weight with the engine at
> > idle. It's the number at which the rudder runs out of effectiveness to keep
> > the nose aligned with the runway.
>
> Actually, no. It would make sense if that were the case, which is why
> it's not :)
>

That makes sense. Hey, wait a minute...

> you can do, but there is no guarantee that the max demonstrated
> crosswind component will not be more (or less) than the plane can
> handle by the wing-low method at short field approach speed.

I was using probably a little over 3000' of a 5000' runway to land in
those conditions (30kt xwind component). No problem on a nice big,
wide runway, but on those kinds of days I'd avoid anything much
shorter than that, personally. Which makes the exercise somewhat
nugatory since in these parts any field big enough to have a 5000'
main runway will usually have a crosswind one too. But it's nice to
know you have a margin of comfort.

-cwk.

[C Kingsbury]

Dylan Smith > wrote in message >...
> In article >, CHANGE USERNAME TO westes wrote:
> > How do you use prop on a single engine plane to improve alignment to the
> > runway? Rudder and ailerons I understand. And on a dual engine airplane I
>
> In a tractor configured (i.e. engine and prop on the nose, single fin
> directly in line with the fuselage and in the propwash) single engine
> plane, at low speeds the propwash over the tail surfaces make the rudder
> much more effective if you give the engine some power.

Bingo.

-cwk.

[Roger]

On Thu, 25 Nov 2004 10:57:14 -0800, "CHANGE USERNAME TO westes"
> wrote:

>"Roger" > wrote in message
...
>> I've had the Deb stall in level flight at 5500 feet on a beautiful
>> clear day.
>
>Do you have any theories about what caused that one? I gather you were
>not practicing stalls or slow flight?

Clear air turbulence. It could have been wake turbulence but there
were no reported aircraft in the area.

It had been a smooth ride. I hit a pretty hard bump, followed by
another with in a few seconds. I brought the power back and slowed to
Va. I hit another still harder bump. The next one left me looking at
the ground, but at 140MPH plus the nose came right back up. I don't
think the altitude changed a 100 feet.

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

[Roger]

On Tue, 23 Nov 2004 03:30:09 GMT, "C Kingsbury"
> wrote:

>
>"BTIZ" > wrote in message
>news:VSwod.131876$bk1.3469@fed1read05...
>> and what is the published max demonstrated crosswind ??
>> less than 20knts in my guess..
>>
>
>I've landed my 172 in 30 knot crosswinds, as in 25g40 knot winds
>perpendicular to the runway. Sure as hell not with more than one notch down,
>though. Fun ride it was.
>
>The number in the book is for a plane at gross weight with the engine at
>idle. It's the number at which the rudder runs out of effectiveness to keep
>the nose aligned with the runway. So you blow it over with the prop. Of

I sure hope your instructor didn't come up with that.

It has absolutely nothing to do with the planes real capabilities.

The figure in the book has only one meaning. It was the wind on the
day the cross wind landing capability was tested and has very little
to do with what the plane can actually do in stronger wings.

My Deb has a 12 knot demonstrated cross wind component. I've taken
off and landed a the cross wind component of 25.

>course if it's a short field and you're near gross, then you're going to be
>a lot closer to what the book says. But a 15-kt crosswind is nothing for a
>lightly-loaded plane as long as the pilot knows what he's doing.

It depends on the airplane.
If the slip to land is used you know if you have enough aileron and
rudder to keep the plane tracking and aligned with the runway.

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com
>
>-cwk.
>

[Roger]

On Mon, 22 Nov 2004 18:02:35 -0800, "BTIZ" >
wrote:

>and what is the published max demonstrated crosswind ??
>less than 20knts in my guess..

Which has nothing to do with real life.
>
>but I agree.. 40 degree flaps in a cross wind is not a good idea..
>even less so for a Cessna
>
I would agree for a gusty cross wind, but not a steady wind.

OTOH it does depend on the airplane.
I always used full flaps in the Cherokee. Never found a reason not to
and I flew in a lot of windy conditions.

Then again I've landed a 150 in some very strong cross winds and I
used full flaps. However which every configuration you choose, work
up to it. Just because some one else does it doesn't mean you can use
any particular configuration in wind conditions you haven't
experienced before.

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com


<snip>

[Roger]

>>
>>"BTIZ" > wrote in message
>>news:VSwod.131876$bk1.3469@fed1read05...
>>> and what is the published max demonstrated crosswind ??
>>> less than 20knts in my guess..
>>>
>>

It also depends on how you're loaded. As the CG moves back
the rudder is working off a shorter arm in trying to pivot the
airplane straight. With a more forward CG it's effectiveness
will stay to a lower airspeed. The real bottom line is whether
or not you can keep the nose straight with the amount of
aileron needed to stay over the centerline.

The max demonstrated number is a good guideline for your
average pilot. For those that fly in areas of the country with
high winds a lot of the time they get a little more skilled at
handling the xw.