OT Flying an A320 :)

[Ramapriya]

Hi guys,

A couple of days ago, I had this fantastic opportunity of flying in
the cockpit, from start to finish, on a 3-hour flight from Almaty to
Atyrau in Kazakhstan in an A320 that our Company had chartered. I was
in the jump seat between the captain and FO. There was a crew of 6 and
there were 6 passengers in a 150-capacity aircraft :)

There were two very friendly Canadian pilots who didn't think much of
answering my Qs - and there were a few Qs :)

Apart from learning quite a bit, I also unlearned the following:

a. There's a stick to pilot the aircraft and not a U-shaped control
column.
b. Cockpits don't contain a drove of dials and needles, but are
completely digital.
c. Planes aren't turned during taxiing using the rudder but have a
lovely little device that controls the nosewheel.
d. Brakes aren't manually applied upon landing but are preset.
e. Pilots pay a lot more than passing attention to wake vortices.
Indeed, the captain waited for almost five minutes on the runway
before deciding to takeoff since a huge Russian cargo plane took off
prior to our departure.

Being the friendly chaps, the pilots allowed me to disengage the
autopilot and bank the aircraft as much as I liked during cruise and I
think I did a decent job of maintaining the correct heading because
upon re-engagement of the autopilot, the correction it had to do was
almost imperceptible. The captain also let me throw open the throttle
for takeoff, although his hand was snug above mine :)

The weather was quite rough at the end of the ride, with very low
visibility, making the landing thrilling.

For all the unbelievable sensation, I must confess that the experience
left me feeling that piloting is a mite too staid and has this
ineffable remoteness to it. I really hadn't known that planes have
this degree of automation... I mean, the things can nigh fly
themselves. Not sure now I want that; I'd reckoned flying to be a lot
more raw, honestly. There wasn't one moment where I experienced the
raw feeling one gets while driving a car or motorcycle. And I wasn't
even on some small, unsophisticated airplane. I know you'll be gasping
at how silly I could be for saying this but that's what I felt anyways
:\

Ramapriya

[Larry Dighera]

On 25 Nov 2004 04:28:47 -0800, (Ramapriya) wrote in
>::

>e. Pilots pay a lot more than passing attention to wake vortices.
>Indeed, the captain waited for almost five minutes on the runway
>before deciding to takeoff since a huge Russian cargo plane took off
>prior to our departure.

Given the facts, that wingtip vortices begin at the point the aircraft
leaves the ground, and the heavy Russian freighter had rotated far
down the runway because of its weight, and your lightly loaded
aircraft could have easily left the ground substantially before the
point where the freighter had, why couldn't your PIC have departed
whenever he wished? Was he concerned that the prevailing crosswind
component might blow a vortex back on the runway? Parallel runways?

[Morgans]

"Ramapriya" > wrote

> For all the unbelievable sensation, I must confess that the experience
> left me feeling that piloting is a mite too staid and has this
> ineffable remoteness to it. I really hadn't known that planes have
> this degree of automation... I mean, the things can nigh fly themselves.

Small planes do not fly themselves. YOU do the takeoff and YOU do the
landing, and all the flying inbetween. In exception to what I just said,
some high-end single engine planes do have autopilots that will fly the
plane to a certain course and altitude, and will also turn to a new course
that you have progamed into it. Very expensive to get those features in GA
(general aviation.)


>There wasn't one moment where I experienced the
> raw feeling one gets while driving a car or motorcycle. And I wasn't
> even on some small, unsophisticated airplane. I know you'll be gasping
> at how silly I could be for saying this but that's what I felt anyways
> :\
>
> Ramapriya


The only thing that might be silly is you thinking that it would be a raw
feeling to fly a transport aircraft. Lots of people call large aircraft
pilots "bus drivers", because that is about what they do. Calm, reliable,
comfortable transportation is what people expect when the fly commercial,
and usually they get it.

When you learn to fly, after a number of hours, you may become skilled
enough to fly some high performance airplanes, many of them being home
built, that can do steep banking, rolls, loops, and other exciting maneuvers
that will make riding a motorcycle feel tame.
--
Jim in NC


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[Bob Fry]

(Ramapriya) writes:

> the pilots allowed me to disengage the
> autopilot and bank the aircraft as much as I liked during cruise and I
> think I did a decent job of maintaining the correct heading because

Hmmm....another chap with an odd name who is only learning to fly
during the cruise phase...

[Yossarian]

Bob Fry > wrote in
:

> (Ramapriya) writes:
>
>> the pilots allowed me to disengage the
>> autopilot and bank the aircraft as much as I liked during cruise and I
>> think I did a decent job of maintaining the correct heading because
>
> Hmmm....another chap with an odd name who is only learning to fly
> during the cruise phase...
>

I can't believe you wrote that. OMG A TERRORIST CALL HOMELAND SECURITY.

[Capt.Doug]

>"Ramapriya" wrote in message There wasn't one moment where I >experienced
the
> raw feeling one gets while driving a car or motorcycle. And I wasn't
> even on some small, unsophisticated airplane. I know you'll be gasping
> at how silly I could be for saying this but that's what I felt anyways

Next time you get to fly a bus, have the pilots disconnect the batteries.
generators, and ram turbine. Try to land.

Next time you get to fly any plane. have the pilots take you through a
thunderstorm. Then decide what keeps an Airbus out of thunderstorms.

Next time you fly a bus, watch the autopilot fly a perfact approach, and
then watch as it goes missed approach into a holding pattern with very
little fuel remaining. Try not to sweat too much as the automation refuses
to release control to you because you forgot a keystroke while arming the
approach. Pray you figure it out before you run out of gas.

Next time you fly a bus, cut both engines at 35000 feet and try to land on a
runway. Any runway will do.

Next time you fly a bus, pray that the tail stays attached. Pray that it
will turn into a real airplane like an MD-80.

D. (motorcycles are for kids)

[Ramapriya]

"Morgans" > wrote in message >...

> The only thing that might be silly is you thinking that it would be a raw
> feeling to fly a transport aircraft. Lots of people call large aircraft
> pilots "bus drivers", because that is about what they do. Calm, reliable,
> comfortable transportation is what people expect when the fly commercial,
> and usually they get it.
>
> When you learn to fly, after a number of hours, you may become skilled
> enough to fly some high performance airplanes, many of them being home
> built, that can do steep banking, rolls, loops, and other exciting maneuvers
> that will make riding a motorcycle feel tame.

My motorcycle rides, and the lack of that kinda thrill, was *exactly*
what I was thinking when I wrote what I did. But I have hope now,
reading what you wrote :)

Ramapriya


PS: Noticed the terrorist thing started in this thread again? :\

[Morgans]

"Capt.Doug" > wrote in

> Next time you get to fly a bus, have the pilots disconnect the batteries.
> generators, and ram turbine. Try to land.

Snip - some more good examples

I fear you were aiming your bus driver comments straight at me. I deserve
your reply. I realized as soon as I sent the send that what I wrote was
insensitive and incomplete.

I do realize that a bus driver could not handle the emergencies you
mentioned, and that was not the intent. I was only commenting on the
"thrill" aspect. The skill and expertise needed to fly today's complex
airliner, boggles my mind. Managing and operating the flight director and
all the other complex systems, and troubleshooting when things go tits up is
an huge job, and an admirable position.

Keep up the good work, and continue the smooth, non-thrilling "bus rides"
that everyone wants and expects.

Did that come out any better? <g>
--
Jim in NC


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[Ramapriya]

"Morgans" > wrote in message >...
> built, that can do steep banking, rolls, loops, and other exciting maneuvers
> that will make riding a motorcycle feel tame.

By the way, I also got confirmation on what I'd for long suspected to
be unnecessary - the warning to switch off mobile phones on the
aircraft. I asked how phones, which use a completely different set of
frequencies to operate in, could interfere with air traffic
communication. And the pilots did admit that it was just something
that international regulations required and that there isn't much to
evidence interference, unless satellite phones are used.

And it was only when I went looking for a gage with a ball and saw
none that I learnt (from the captain) that, "Every turn on an aircraft
is a coordinated turn". Wonder why John Denker has written a piece on
coordinated turns at all...

Ramapriya

[Stefan]

Ramapriya wrote:

> By the way, I also got confirmation on what I'd for long suspected to
> be unnecessary - the warning to switch off mobile phones on the
> aircraft. I asked how phones, which use a completely different set of
> frequencies to operate in, could interfere with air traffic
> communication. And the pilots did admit that it was just something
> that international regulations required and that there isn't much to
> evidence interference, unless satellite phones are used.

You got that backwards: Every high frequency electronic device emits
radiation and therefore can, theoretically, interfere. So the question
is not whether there is evidence that it does interfere, but whether
there is proof that it does not.

> And it was only when I went looking for a gage with a ball and saw
> none that I learnt (from the captain) that, "Every turn on an aircraft
> is a coordinated turn". Wonder why John Denker has written a piece on
> coordinated turns at all...

Certainly true for the airbus: You fly it with the joy stick, and the
computer takes care of coordination.

Stefan

[Bob Moore]

(Ramapriya) wrote

> And it was only when I went looking for a gage with a ball and saw
> none that I learnt (from the captain) that, "Every turn on an aircraft
> is a coordinated turn". Wonder why John Denker has written a piece on
> coordinated turns at all...

I'm sure that he meant to say "in that aircraft" and not aircraft
in general.

Most, if not all large swept wing aircraft incorporate a "yaw damper"
to prevent an aerodynamic phenomenon called "dutch roll", a see-sawing
back-and-forth of the nose of the aircraft. The yaw damper controls
the rudder independantly of the pilot using gyros and hydraulic controls.
Because it dampens the dutch roll yaw, it also keeps yaw near zero at
all other times....and the ball stays in the middle even in turns.

Not so fortunate in propeller driven general aviation aircraft...
in turns, the pilot must use the rudder controls to keep the a/c
from yawing.

Bob Moore CFI
ATP B-707 B-727
PanAm (retired)

[Capt.Doug]

>"Morgans" wrote in message > I fear you were aiming your bus driver
>comments straight at me. I deserve
> your reply. I realized as soon as I sent the send that what I wrote was
> insensitive and incomplete.

Apologies, but I hadn't read your post before I replied to Ram. If I am
expected to engage you in a flame-fest, please let me know. :-)

D.

[Morgans]

"Capt.Doug" > wrote in message news:%

>
> Apologies, but I hadn't read your post before I replied to Ram. If I am
> expected to engage you in a flame-fest, please let me know. :-)
>
> D.

I thought you had gotten the "bus driver" comment from my post, which was
why I was posting a retraction. I have no desire to engage in a flame fest
with you, or anyone else.

I have the greatest respect for what you do, and if given the choice, I
would be up there "driving the buses" with you. :-)

By the way great post you wrote, a day or two ago. Keep 'em coming.
--
Jim in NC


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[Ramapriya]

Bob Moore > wrote in message >...

> Not so fortunate in propeller driven general aviation aircraft...
> in turns, the pilot must use the rudder controls to keep the a/c
> from yawing.
>
> Bob Moore CFI
> ATP B-707 B-727
> PanAm (retired)

Bob, since you're an experienced pilot, can you explain (preferably
with an example) what exactly are the various elements of a flight
plan? Of the stuff I got to see and learn on that flying trip, the
flight plan was the one thing that was just not intuitive at all, and
appeared awfully complex to comprehend. Not wanting to lose out
precious time on one particular aspect, I left it at that.

Also, it totally escaped my attention to ask the pilots what exactly
is vertical damping. John Denker's otherwise excellent material didn't
do much to explain vertical damping easily enough...

Thanks in advance,

Ramapriya

[Bob Moore]

(Ramapriya) wrote

> Bob, since you're an experienced pilot, can you explain (preferably
> with an example) what exactly are the various elements of a flight
> plan? Of the stuff I got to see and learn on that flying trip, the
> flight plan was the one thing that was just not intuitive at all, and
> appeared awfully complex to comprehend.

But not so experienced as a typist....:-) It would take me
a week to type it out.

I will try to find you a web site for the answer.

The "flight plan" can mean either of two things. One is the
documentation of the planning that the pilot or flight
dispatcher (or computer) has done to serve as directions for
the flightcrew to follow. Second is a document filed with
Air Traffic Control telling them what you would like to do
and requesting their clearence for that flight.
Pilots tend to call both "the flight plan", but at the old
Pan American Airways, the first was refered to as the
"Flight Plan Analysis" to distinguish it from the ATC FP.

Bob Moore

[C Kingsbury]

The difference between flying a Cessna 172 and an A320 is the difference
between driving a motorboat and an oil tanker. The goal of the A320 is to be
as boring as possible.

The glory days of being an airline pilot are long gone. With each decade we
see less reliance on individual skill and judgment and more on automation
and procedure. It is still a challenging job and I doubt we will ever see
pilotless commercial aircraft, but for the most part progress has
dramatically increased safety for all. The same thing happened long ago in
the maritime realm when we stopped relying on sails to push us across
oceans. It still requires significant skill to pilot that tanker across the
ocean but not like it used to, and it's orders of magnitude less dangerous.

-cwk.

[Ramapriya]

Bob Moore > wrote in message >...
>
> The "flight plan" can mean either of two things. One is the
> documentation of the planning that the pilot or flight
> dispatcher (or computer) has done to serve as directions for
> the flightcrew to follow. Second is a document filed with
> Air Traffic Control telling them what you would like to do
> and requesting their clearence for that flight.
> Pilots tend to call both "the flight plan", but at the old
> Pan American Airways, the first was refered to as the
> "Flight Plan Analysis" to distinguish it from the ATC FP.
>
> Bob Moore

I meant the 6-odd line of very complicated-looking information filed
with Air Traffic Control. What was astonishing was the captain
mentioning that it's a job the airliners' desk clerks normally do!!
Guess the entire industry consists only of blokes with super IQ
levels, because I don't think I'd ever be able to do a Flight Plan on
my own :(

Ramapriya

[Capt.Doug]

>"Morgans" wrote in message
> Jim in NC

Thanks.
My ranting comes from an inner self that will be kicking and screaming as
they drag me off my cable-operated jetliner into one of them flying
computers.
I go into Andrews-Murphy once in a while. How far is that from you?

D.

[Morgans]

"Capt.Doug" > wrote

> I go into Andrews-Murphy once in a while. How far is that from you?
>
> D.

A looong way, because I'm not flying, due to medical problems, and "you
can't get there from here" by car. It is at least 2 1/2 hours by car, and
maybe more.

Sport pilot is in my future, but right now, with one in Med school and one
at college, the extra funds are not there. Soon, very soon, but not soon
enough!

Most people have no idea how big North Carolina is, from East to West. I've
never done it, but you could easily eat up 10+ hours driving the whole width
of the state.

Have a good one!
--
Jim in NC


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[Morgans]

"Morgans" > wrote

> A looong way, because I'm not flying, due to medical problems, and "you
> can't get there from here" by car.

> Jim in NC

Here, is near Hickory (HKY)


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