Why are commuter flights so expensive?

[Jay Honeck]

Here's a mystery that I just cannot answer:

To fly to Las Vegas from Chicago costs $99.00. (For example.)

To fly to Cedar Rapids from Chicago costs $300.

Naturally, at that price practically no one flies on that plane into Cedar
Rapids.

Question: WHY do the airlines that fly into Cedar Rapids insist on flying
back and forth with mostly empty planes? Would it not make sense, say, 30
minutes before departure, to drop the price until the plane was full? This
is basic "Econ 101" -- if empty, lower the price until demand matches
supply.

Their actions seem to defy logic. In the lodging industry, you're going to
find rooms are discounted much more aggressively after 10 PM than they are
at 3 PM, simply because no innkeeper wants to sit empty, and the odds of
being able to charge full-rate at that time of day are slim. Yet no airline
seems to do it this way, at least on the short hops.

If it were MY airline, I'd sure as hell rather make a hundred bucks than
nothing!

There must be something else in play here -- anyone know?
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Bob Gardner]

Could it be because they have to file tariffs with regulatory agencies,
declaring their prices in advance?

Bob Gardner

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
news:fIspd.85397$V41.82999@attbi_s52...
> Here's a mystery that I just cannot answer:
>
> To fly to Las Vegas from Chicago costs $99.00. (For example.)
>
> To fly to Cedar Rapids from Chicago costs $300.
>
> Naturally, at that price practically no one flies on that plane into Cedar
> Rapids.
>
> Question: WHY do the airlines that fly into Cedar Rapids insist on flying
> back and forth with mostly empty planes? Would it not make sense, say,
> 30 minutes before departure, to drop the price until the plane was full?
> This is basic "Econ 101" -- if empty, lower the price until demand matches
> supply.
>
> Their actions seem to defy logic. In the lodging industry, you're going
> to find rooms are discounted much more aggressively after 10 PM than they
> are at 3 PM, simply because no innkeeper wants to sit empty, and the odds
> of being able to charge full-rate at that time of day are slim. Yet no
> airline seems to do it this way, at least on the short hops.
>
> If it were MY airline, I'd sure as hell rather make a hundred bucks than
> nothing!
>
> There must be something else in play here -- anyone know?
> --
> Jay Honeck
> Iowa City, IA
> Pathfinder N56993
> www.AlexisParkInn.com
> "Your Aviation Destination"
>

[Bob Fry]

"Jay Honeck" > writes:

> To fly to Las Vegas from Chicago costs $99.00. (For example.)
>
> To fly to Cedar Rapids from Chicago costs $300.

Wouldn't most people want to get *paid* to fly to Cedar Rapids,
especially when they can fly to Vegas for so cheap?? ;-)

> Naturally, at that price practically no one flies on that plane into Cedar
> Rapids.

It's not the price, it's the destination....

[Bob Noel]

In article <fIspd.85397$V41.82999@attbi_s52>,
"Jay Honeck" > wrote:

> Here's a mystery that I just cannot answer:
>
> To fly to Las Vegas from Chicago costs $99.00. (For example.)
>
> To fly to Cedar Rapids from Chicago costs $300.
>
> Naturally, at that price practically no one flies on that plane into Cedar
> Rapids.

Just to give you more fun, to fly roundtrip BOS-CID-BOS thru ORD was
recently $327.90.

btw - how long would it take to drive from Chicago to Cedar Rapids?

--
Bob Noel

[NW_PILOT]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
news:fIspd.85397$V41.82999@attbi_s52...
> Here's a mystery that I just cannot answer:
>
> To fly to Las Vegas from Chicago costs $99.00. (For example.)
>
> To fly to Cedar Rapids from Chicago costs $300.
>
> Naturally, at that price practically no one flies on that plane into Cedar
> Rapids.
>
> Question: WHY do the airlines that fly into Cedar Rapids insist on flying
> back and forth with mostly empty planes? Would it not make sense, say,
30
> minutes before departure, to drop the price until the plane was full?
This
> is basic "Econ 101" -- if empty, lower the price until demand matches
> supply.
>
> Their actions seem to defy logic. In the lodging industry, you're going
to
> find rooms are discounted much more aggressively after 10 PM than they are
> at 3 PM, simply because no innkeeper wants to sit empty, and the odds of
> being able to charge full-rate at that time of day are slim. Yet no
airline
> seems to do it this way, at least on the short hops.
>
> If it were MY airline, I'd sure as hell rather make a hundred bucks than
> nothing!
>
> There must be something else in play here -- anyone know?
> --
> Jay Honeck
> Iowa City, IA
> Pathfinder N56993
> www.AlexisParkInn.com
> "Your Aviation Destination"
>
>

Lack Of Usage Of Basic "Econ 101" in GA Aviation will be its downfall,
Happens to flight schools all the time. Look at the Crooks at Columbia
Flight Center they lose instructors, & customers because they put profits
before service. They order parts with out your permission ect. They charge
way to much for their rental aircraft you never know what the rates are
going to be tomarrow. They were so cheap they did not want to spend $6.00 to
develop my solo photos because there was still 5 exposures on the camera. 6
months later even after offering to pay for the development they refused and
then said they lost the camera. 1 Moment in history lost for ever, 1 Page
blank in my scrap book, 1 customer lost for life and no word of mouth
advertizing. All they get from me Stay AWAY.

[Ash Wyllie]

Jay Honeck opined

>Here's a mystery that I just cannot answer:

>To fly to Las Vegas from Chicago costs $99.00. (For example.)

>To fly to Cedar Rapids from Chicago costs $300.

>Naturally, at that price practically no one flies on that plane into Cedar
>Rapids.

>Question: WHY do the airlines that fly into Cedar Rapids insist on flying
>back and forth with mostly empty planes? Would it not make sense, say, 30
>minutes before departure, to drop the price until the plane was full? This
>is basic "Econ 101" -- if empty, lower the price until demand matches
>supply.

I don't know about Cedar Rapids, But I'm told that Colgan Air gets a hefty per
seat subsidy to fly into Rockland Maine.

>Their actions seem to defy logic. In the lodging industry, you're going to
>find rooms are discounted much more aggressively after 10 PM than they are
>at 3 PM, simply because no innkeeper wants to sit empty, and the odds of
>being able to charge full-rate at that time of day are slim. Yet no airline
>seems to do it this way, at least on the short hops.

>If it were MY airline, I'd sure as hell rather make a hundred bucks than
>nothing!

>There must be something else in play here -- anyone know?
>--
>Jay Honeck
>Iowa City, IA
>Pathfinder N56993
>www.AlexisParkInn.com
>"Your Aviation Destination"




-ash
Cthulhu in 2005!
Why wait for nature?

[Nathan Young]

On Thu, 25 Nov 2004 23:34:25 GMT, Bob Noel
> wrote:

>In article <fIspd.85397$V41.82999@attbi_s52>,
> "Jay Honeck" > wrote:
>
>> Here's a mystery that I just cannot answer:
>>
>> To fly to Las Vegas from Chicago costs $99.00. (For example.)
>>
>> To fly to Cedar Rapids from Chicago costs $300.
>>
>> Naturally, at that price practically no one flies on that plane into Cedar
>> Rapids.
>
>Just to give you more fun, to fly roundtrip BOS-CID-BOS thru ORD was
>recently $327.90.
>
>btw - how long would it take to drive from Chicago to Cedar Rapids?

4-5 hrs depending where in Chicago you are going...

[Capt.Doug]

>"Jay Honeck" wrote in message > Question: WHY do the airlines that fly into
>Cedar Rapids insist on flying back and forth with mostly empty planes?
> There must be something else in play here -- anyone know?

If half of the rooms in your hotel were pre-paid in advance wether or not
they were being used, would you still care about dropping the price? While
there may be few passengers, 50% of the seats or more are already paid for.
The rest is gravy. Mainline code-share partners and the government's
Essential Air Service contracts keep the commuters in business.

D.

[Judah]

I'm guessing the thought process is held in two parts:

1) They have to charge a higher price to fly to Cedar Rapids because
there will always be fewer people demanding that flight than a flight to
Vegas. Presumably, there will be 3 times as many people flying to Vegas
than to Cedar Rapids, and so the Cedar Rapids price is three times that
of the Vegas Flight.

2) If they drop the price 30 minutes before flight time, I doubt they
will make more money, since it takes an hour to get through security and
all. :) Figure there is a cutoff time - maybe the noon before, as an
example - when heavily discounted fares would be picked up and consumed
by last minute fare customers who otherwise would have driven. However,
at the same time, we all know that premium-priced last minute business
trips make up the most profitable ticket sales for the airlines.

I'm guessing that someone in management of the airline has evaluated
(read: gut feel) that it would generate less profit to offer 5 last-minue
$100 deals, than to get 1 jacked-up last minute $500 deal.

Not sure what the right answer is, but the bottom line is, as I'm sure
you know, pricing is not just about covering overhead, it's about
maximizing profit...

What I'm surprised more airlines DON'T do is offer inexpensive upgrades
for already-paid passengers. The upsell is such a big profitmaker!


"Jay Honeck" > wrote in
news:fIspd.85397$V41.82999@attbi_s52:

> Here's a mystery that I just cannot answer:
>
> To fly to Las Vegas from Chicago costs $99.00. (For example.)
>
> To fly to Cedar Rapids from Chicago costs $300.
>
> Naturally, at that price practically no one flies on that plane into
> Cedar Rapids.
>
> Question: WHY do the airlines that fly into Cedar Rapids insist on
> flying back and forth with mostly empty planes? Would it not make
> sense, say, 30 minutes before departure, to drop the price until the
> plane was full? This is basic "Econ 101" -- if empty, lower the price
> until demand matches supply.
>
> Their actions seem to defy logic. In the lodging industry, you're
> going to find rooms are discounted much more aggressively after 10 PM
> than they are at 3 PM, simply because no innkeeper wants to sit empty,
> and the odds of being able to charge full-rate at that time of day are
> slim. Yet no airline seems to do it this way, at least on the short
> hops.
>
> If it were MY airline, I'd sure as hell rather make a hundred bucks
> than nothing!
>
> There must be something else in play here -- anyone know?

[Christopher Brian Colohan]

"Jay Honeck" > writes:
> Here's a mystery that I just cannot answer:
>
> To fly to Las Vegas from Chicago costs $99.00. (For example.)
>
> To fly to Cedar Rapids from Chicago costs $300.
>
> Naturally, at that price practically no one flies on that plane into Cedar
> Rapids.
>
> Question: WHY do the airlines that fly into Cedar Rapids insist on flying
> back and forth with mostly empty planes? Would it not make sense, say, 30
> minutes before departure, to drop the price until the plane was full? This
> is basic "Econ 101" -- if empty, lower the price until demand matches
> supply.

Unfortunately, that logic only applies with a liquid market, where
there are plenty of potential customers to actually fill the supply.
It also assumes that if the airline did that then customers would not
just wait for the cheaper prices before buying. There is not an
unbounded supply of people who want to fly to Cedar Rapids if they are
just given the right price.

Let's say there are 50 people per day who want to go there, and they
are willing to pay $300. Let's say there are an additional 50 people
who are willing to go if the price was dropped to $100. If you keep
the price at $300, you take in $15000. If you drop the price to $100,
you take in $10000, and have the hassle of dealing with 50 more
passengers. There is no easy way of making sure you charge the first
50 people the higher price, and the second 50 people the lower price
(although the airlines certainly try to do this).

I suspect the airline folks watch demand very carefully, and try to
choose prices which maximize profits, and not the number of passengers
flown.

Chris
--
Chris Colohan Email: PGP: finger
Web: www.colohan.com Phone: (412)268-4751

[Brad Zeigler]

"NW_PILOT" > wrote in message
...

> Lack Of Usage Of Basic "Econ 101" in GA Aviation will be its downfall,


And this relates how???

[C Kingsbury]

Bob Noel > wrote in message >...
> In article <fIspd.85397$V41.82999@attbi_s52>,

>
> Just to give you more fun, to fly roundtrip BOS-CID-BOS thru ORD was
> recently $327.90.

That's a big change from two or three years ago. I used to make that
run regularly to service a client out there (Rockwell Collins) and
those were some of the most expensive tickets I ever bought
domestically. Regularly $800 and I paid as much as $1500 on less than
3 days' notice. I hated going there because the area was such an
armpit but god bless the client, they never bitched about ticket
prices.

> btw - how long would it take to drive from Chicago to Cedar Rapids?

About 4 hours IIRC. If you can do it without running off the road just
to break up the monotony you're a better man than I.

Best,
-cwk.

[Bob Noel]

In article >,
(C Kingsbury) wrote:

> > btw - how long would it take to drive from Chicago to Cedar Rapids?
>
> About 4 hours IIRC. If you can do it without running off the road just
> to break up the monotony you're a better man than I.

Understood, but just waiting around ORD for the connecting 30 minute
flight is more annoying than driving for 4 hours. Last time I went
to RCGS we could have driven faster (both the ORD to CID and
CID to ORD legs).

--
Bob Noel

[Dylan Smith]

In article >, Bob Gardner wrote:
> Could it be because they have to file tariffs with regulatory agencies,
> declaring their prices in advance?

Probably not. SouthWest airlines, at least, offers cheap last minute
fares to get the planes full. I often took advantage of this to take
trips to see friends in SLC which I otherwise would not have made.
Benefited me (cheap trip) and benefited SWA (they otherwise would have
had an empty seat).

Not surprising that the year after Sept 11, SWA were the only major to
make money. They were the only major with a clue, it seemed.

We have the same problem here with British Airways flying into Isle of
Man Ronaldsway. They charge a king's ransom especially for last minute
fares, and wonder why although traffic through the airport has increased
the last year, why their passenger loadings have fallen. I just hope
they don't wind up pulling out because they are the only airline that
does through ticketing from Ronaldsway to the US.

--
Dylan Smith, Castletown, Isle of Man
Flying: http://www.dylansmith.net
Frontier Elite Universe: http://www.alioth.net
"Maintain thine airspeed, lest the ground come up and smite thee"

[Frank]

Jay Honeck wrote:

> Here's a mystery that I just cannot answer:
>
> To fly to Las Vegas from Chicago costs $99.00. (For example.)
>
> To fly to Cedar Rapids from Chicago costs $300.
>

<snip>

>
> There must be something else in play here -- anyone know?

The only way to understand airline ticket pricing is to think about it in
terms of how much a person needing to go to destination X will pay vs. how
many competing airlines go there.

--
Frank....H

[Mike Beede]

In article >, Bob Gardner > wrote:

> Could it be because they have to file tariffs with regulatory agencies,
> declaring their prices in advance?

I thought that was what deregulation was about--removing that requirement.
If they really have to do that, then Northwurst must have a department with
thousands of people filing these constantly, since I see ticket prices for the
same leg change several times in an hour.

Of course, I have no idea what the requirements really are--I'm just
reporting my experience as a consumer (package, that is).

One possibility is that people on shorter hops might be better about actually
taking advantage of last-minute fares--maybe no one would buy and advance
ticket then. It sure does seem like a no-brainer, though.

Mike Beede

[john smith]

Are you referring to the Freddie Laker and People Express models?
The problem is having sufficient capacity to accommodate those you still
do not have seats for after you have filled the first airplane.
That was People Express' downfall. They didn't have the ability to have
the right equipment at the right airport to meet the demand.

Jay Honeck wrote:
> Here's a mystery that I just cannot answer:
> To fly to Las Vegas from Chicago costs $99.00. (For example.)
> To fly to Cedar Rapids from Chicago costs $300.
> Naturally, at that price practically no one flies on that plane into Cedar
> Rapids.
> Question: WHY do the airlines that fly into Cedar Rapids insist on flying
> back and forth with mostly empty planes? Would it not make sense, say, 30
> minutes before departure, to drop the price until the plane was full? This
> is basic "Econ 101" -- if empty, lower the price until demand matches
> supply.
> Their actions seem to defy logic. In the lodging industry, you're going to
> find rooms are discounted much more aggressively after 10 PM than they are
> at 3 PM, simply because no innkeeper wants to sit empty, and the odds of
> being able to charge full-rate at that time of day are slim. Yet no airline
> seems to do it this way, at least on the short hops.
> If it were MY airline, I'd sure as hell rather make a hundred bucks than
> nothing!
> There must be something else in play here -- anyone know?

[Foster]

Clearly airline prices - commuter or otherwise - are the product of a
black art, probably involving the sacrifice of small critters to arrive
at a price. A couple of years ago I needed to fly from Chicago to
Jackson Hole (ORD - JAC). I had to go one-way - I was driving back with
an old friend. One way air fare was about $800. Round trip was $500!
How's that for logical?

JJF

Jay Honeck wrote:
> Here's a mystery that I just cannot answer:
>
> To fly to Las Vegas from Chicago costs $99.00. (For example.)
>
> To fly to Cedar Rapids from Chicago costs $300.
>
> Naturally, at that price practically no one flies on that plane into Cedar
> Rapids.
>
> Question: WHY do the airlines that fly into Cedar Rapids insist on flying
> back and forth with mostly empty planes? Would it not make sense, say, 30
> minutes before departure, to drop the price until the plane was full? This
> is basic "Econ 101" -- if empty, lower the price until demand matches
> supply.
>
> Their actions seem to defy logic. In the lodging industry, you're going to
> find rooms are discounted much more aggressively after 10 PM than they are
> at 3 PM, simply because no innkeeper wants to sit empty, and the odds of
> being able to charge full-rate at that time of day are slim. Yet no airline
> seems to do it this way, at least on the short hops.
>
> If it were MY airline, I'd sure as hell rather make a hundred bucks than
> nothing!
>
> There must be something else in play here -- anyone know?

[C Kingsbury]

"Bob Noel" > wrote in message
...
> In article >,
> (C Kingsbury) wrote:
>
> > > btw - how long would it take to drive from Chicago to Cedar Rapids?
> >
> > About 4 hours IIRC. If you can do it without running off the road just
> > to break up the monotony you're a better man than I.
>
> Understood, but just waiting around ORD for the connecting 30 minute
> flight is more annoying than driving for 4 hours. Last time I went
> to RCGS we could have driven faster (both the ORD to CID and
> CID to ORD legs).

I was a Delta/NWA man so I dodged the O'Hare bullet more often than not. But
between summer thunder and winter snow I got stuck more often there than any
other single place I remember. One time I was grateful though- I was
supposed to be flying there on Superbowl Sunday three years back, and a big
storm was working its way East shutting down everything in its path. So I
got to watch the Pats win at a friend's place in Somerville instead of
getting updates over the PA at FL350.

I truly despise O'Hare. Cincinnati and Atlanta are pretty grim too but not
nearly as awful. And NWA's Detroit hub is possibly my favorite, though the
terminal it replaced was truly abysmal.

-cwk.

[C Kingsbury]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
news:fIspd.85397$V41.82999@attbi_s52...

> Question: WHY do the airlines that fly into Cedar Rapids insist on flying
> back and forth with mostly empty planes? Would it not make sense, say,
30
> minutes before departure, to drop the price until the plane was full?
This
> is basic "Econ 101" -- if empty, lower the price until demand matches
> supply.

Nobody goes to or from Cedar Rapids for the heck of it. Either you live
there or are going for business. If you're a resident then you've made plans
weeks in advance, and if you're on business you'll go regardless of price
(more or less). In fact last-minute prices are usually exorbitant because
people who buy last-minute tickets mroe often *need* to get there and thus
are willing to pay a lot more. If you're planning a vacation six months from
now and tickets to Vegas are $99 and Tampa are $500 then you'll go to Vegas.
OTOH if your client in Tampa is threatening to give the account to your
competitor then you'll pony up thousands without a second thought, so the
airlines take the opportunity to stick it to you.

What's destroying this is the presence of low-cost carriers with very simple
price models where you don't see 5-1 or 10-1 price disparities between
day-of and advance-purchase tickets.

FWIW in Europe I see a lot more of these "last minute bargain" deals in
Europe. The travel agents at the airport frequently sell all kinds of
super-cheap seats on flights leaving literally that day. I think this is
more popular there because (1) they have less money to spend and (2) they
take a lot more vacations so they're willing to "take a chance" and wing it.

-cwk.

[Michelle P]

Supply and demand.
Low supply, low demand, high cost.
Michelle

Jay Honeck wrote:

>Here's a mystery that I just cannot answer:
>
>To fly to Las Vegas from Chicago costs $99.00. (For example.)
>
>To fly to Cedar Rapids from Chicago costs $300.
>
>Naturally, at that price practically no one flies on that plane into Cedar
>Rapids.
>
>Question: WHY do the airlines that fly into Cedar Rapids insist on flying
>back and forth with mostly empty planes? Would it not make sense, say, 30
>minutes before departure, to drop the price until the plane was full? This
>is basic "Econ 101" -- if empty, lower the price until demand matches
>supply.
>
>Their actions seem to defy logic. In the lodging industry, you're going to
>find rooms are discounted much more aggressively after 10 PM than they are
>at 3 PM, simply because no innkeeper wants to sit empty, and the odds of
>being able to charge full-rate at that time of day are slim. Yet no airline
>seems to do it this way, at least on the short hops.
>
>If it were MY airline, I'd sure as hell rather make a hundred bucks than
>nothing!
>
>There must be something else in play here -- anyone know?
>
>

--

Michelle P ATP-ASEL, CP-AMEL, and AMT-A&P

"Elisabeth" a Maule M-7-235B (no two are alike)

Volunteer Pilot, Angel Flight Mid-Atlantic

Volunteer Builder, Habitat for Humanity

[Chuck]

"NW_PILOT" > wrote in message
...
>
> "C Kingsbury" > wrote in message
> nk.net...
> >
> > "Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
> > news:fIspd.85397$V41.82999@attbi_s52...
> >
> > > Question: WHY do the airlines that fly into Cedar Rapids insist on
> flying
> > > back and forth with mostly empty planes? Would it not make sense,
say,
> > 30
> > > minutes before departure, to drop the price until the plane was full?
> > This
> > > is basic "Econ 101" -- if empty, lower the price until demand matches
> > > supply.
> >
> > Nobody goes to or from Cedar Rapids for the heck of it. Either you live
> > there or are going for business. If you're a resident then you've made
> plans
> > weeks in advance, and if you're on business you'll go regardless of
price
> > (more or less). In fact last-minute prices are usually exorbitant
because
> > people who buy last-minute tickets mroe often *need* to get there and
thus
> > are willing to pay a lot more. If you're planning a vacation six months
> from
> > now and tickets to Vegas are $99 and Tampa are $500 then you'll go to
> Vegas.
> > OTOH if your client in Tampa is threatening to give the account to your
> > competitor then you'll pony up thousands without a second thought, so
the
> > airlines take the opportunity to stick it to you.
> >
> > What's destroying this is the presence of low-cost carriers with very
> simple
> > price models where you don't see 5-1 or 10-1 price disparities between
> > day-of and advance-purchase tickets.
> >
> > FWIW in Europe I see a lot more of these "last minute bargain" deals in
> > Europe. The travel agents at the airport frequently sell all kinds of
> > super-cheap seats on flights leaving literally that day. I think this is
> > more popular there because (1) they have less money to spend and (2)
they
> > take a lot more vacations so they're willing to "take a chance" and wing
> it.
> >
> > -cwk.
>
> My last commercial flight to Vegas and back was free! Called up my hotel
and
> transferred $3,000 in cash to my hotel account they had me an E ticket at
> the airport waiting for me when I arrived a few hours later. If you are
> going to Vegas call your hotel and open up an account 3 to 5k they will
pay
> for you flight to come and gamble.
>
>


Wonder if I can place that 3-5k on my CREDIT CARD???? <ducking>


---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.801 / Virus Database: 544 - Release Date: 11/24/2004

[NW_PILOT]

"C Kingsbury" > wrote in message
nk.net...
>
> "Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
> news:fIspd.85397$V41.82999@attbi_s52...
>
> > Question: WHY do the airlines that fly into Cedar Rapids insist on
flying
> > back and forth with mostly empty planes? Would it not make sense, say,
> 30
> > minutes before departure, to drop the price until the plane was full?
> This
> > is basic "Econ 101" -- if empty, lower the price until demand matches
> > supply.
>
> Nobody goes to or from Cedar Rapids for the heck of it. Either you live
> there or are going for business. If you're a resident then you've made
plans
> weeks in advance, and if you're on business you'll go regardless of price
> (more or less). In fact last-minute prices are usually exorbitant because
> people who buy last-minute tickets mroe often *need* to get there and thus
> are willing to pay a lot more. If you're planning a vacation six months
from
> now and tickets to Vegas are $99 and Tampa are $500 then you'll go to
Vegas.
> OTOH if your client in Tampa is threatening to give the account to your
> competitor then you'll pony up thousands without a second thought, so the
> airlines take the opportunity to stick it to you.
>
> What's destroying this is the presence of low-cost carriers with very
simple
> price models where you don't see 5-1 or 10-1 price disparities between
> day-of and advance-purchase tickets.
>
> FWIW in Europe I see a lot more of these "last minute bargain" deals in
> Europe. The travel agents at the airport frequently sell all kinds of
> super-cheap seats on flights leaving literally that day. I think this is
> more popular there because (1) they have less money to spend and (2) they
> take a lot more vacations so they're willing to "take a chance" and wing
it.
>
> -cwk.

My last commercial flight to Vegas and back was free! Called up my hotel and
transferred $3,000 in cash to my hotel account they had me an E ticket at
the airport waiting for me when I arrived a few hours later. If you are
going to Vegas call your hotel and open up an account 3 to 5k they will pay
for you flight to come and gamble.

[NW_PILOT]

"Chuck" > wrote in message
. com...
>
> "NW_PILOT" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > "C Kingsbury" > wrote in message
> > nk.net...
> > >
> > > "Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
> > > news:fIspd.85397$V41.82999@attbi_s52...
> > >
> > > > Question: WHY do the airlines that fly into Cedar Rapids insist on
> > flying
> > > > back and forth with mostly empty planes? Would it not make sense,
> say,
> > > 30
> > > > minutes before departure, to drop the price until the plane was
full?
> > > This
> > > > is basic "Econ 101" -- if empty, lower the price until demand
matches
> > > > supply.
> > >
> > > Nobody goes to or from Cedar Rapids for the heck of it. Either you
live
> > > there or are going for business. If you're a resident then you've made
> > plans
> > > weeks in advance, and if you're on business you'll go regardless of
> price
> > > (more or less). In fact last-minute prices are usually exorbitant
> because
> > > people who buy last-minute tickets mroe often *need* to get there and
> thus
> > > are willing to pay a lot more. If you're planning a vacation six
months
> > from
> > > now and tickets to Vegas are $99 and Tampa are $500 then you'll go to
> > Vegas.
> > > OTOH if your client in Tampa is threatening to give the account to
your
> > > competitor then you'll pony up thousands without a second thought, so
> the
> > > airlines take the opportunity to stick it to you.
> > >
> > > What's destroying this is the presence of low-cost carriers with very
> > simple
> > > price models where you don't see 5-1 or 10-1 price disparities between
> > > day-of and advance-purchase tickets.
> > >
> > > FWIW in Europe I see a lot more of these "last minute bargain" deals
in
> > > Europe. The travel agents at the airport frequently sell all kinds of
> > > super-cheap seats on flights leaving literally that day. I think this
is
> > > more popular there because (1) they have less money to spend and (2)
> they
> > > take a lot more vacations so they're willing to "take a chance" and
wing
> > it.
> > >
> > > -cwk.
> >
> > My last commercial flight to Vegas and back was free! Called up my hotel
> and
> > transferred $3,000 in cash to my hotel account they had me an E ticket
at
> > the airport waiting for me when I arrived a few hours later. If you are
> > going to Vegas call your hotel and open up an account 3 to 5k they will
> pay
> > for you flight to come and gamble.
> >
> >
>
>
> Wonder if I can place that 3-5k on my CREDIT CARD???? <ducking>


Chuck, Yes that is how I did it but make sure you look at the interest rate
for your cash advance it can be worse than the wife? Use a debit card so you
get no interest.

[Al Gilson]

Jay: Correct me if I'm wrong, but as I recall from my tourism industry
days-Hotel people work on Average Daily Rate. Some people walk in the
door and pay your Rack Rate, some pay Corporate Rate, some have a AAA card
discount, some have Government Rate. And it all averages out to your
Average Daily Rate. In the Airline biz they have Revenue Per Seat Mile.
Some pay First Class, some are coach, a few got a package, some purchased
through a consolidator, and some bought the ticket on Priceline. The bean
counters in Chicago, Minneapolis, Dallas, and Atlanta crunch the numbers
and voila!
- - -
Al Gilson
Skyhawk N3082U
KSFF Spokane, WA



In article <fIspd.85397$V41.82999@attbi_s52>, "Jay Honeck"
> wrote:

> Here's a mystery that I just cannot answer:
>
> To fly to Las Vegas from Chicago costs $99.00. (For example.)
>
> To fly to Cedar Rapids from Chicago costs $300.
>
> Naturally, at that price practically no one flies on that plane into Cedar
> Rapids.
>
> Question: WHY do the airlines that fly into Cedar Rapids insist on flying
> back and forth with mostly empty planes? Would it not make sense, say, 30
> minutes before departure, to drop the price until the plane was full? This
> is basic "Econ 101" -- if empty, lower the price until demand matches
> supply.
>
> Their actions seem to defy logic. In the lodging industry, you're going to
> find rooms are discounted much more aggressively after 10 PM than they are
> at 3 PM, simply because no innkeeper wants to sit empty, and the odds of
> being able to charge full-rate at that time of day are slim. Yet no airline
> seems to do it this way, at least on the short hops.
>
> If it were MY airline, I'd sure as hell rather make a hundred bucks than
> nothing!
>
> There must be something else in play here -- anyone know?

--
Al Gilson
Spokane, WA USA
1970 VW Convertible
1964 Cessna Skyhawk

[Chris]

> My last commercial flight to Vegas and back was free! Called up my hotel
> and
> transferred $3,000 in cash to my hotel account they had me an E ticket at
> the airport waiting for me when I arrived a few hours later. If you are
> going to Vegas call your hotel and open up an account 3 to 5k they will
> pay
> for you flight to come and gamble.

Free!! what a shmuck!

[Martin Hotze]

On Fri, 26 Nov 2004 23:15:58 GMT, C Kingsbury wrote:

>FWIW in Europe I see a lot more of these "last minute bargain" deals in
>Europe. The travel agents at the airport frequently sell all kinds of
>super-cheap seats on flights leaving literally that day. I think this is
>more popular there because (1) they have less money to spend and (2) they
>take a lot more vacations so they're willing to "take a chance" and wing it.

who has less money? European consumers or the European airlines?

be aware that Europe is still splitted in many nations and is not the size
of the USA, so things work a little (*doh*) bit different here.

tickets from Europe to the US east cost (both ways) sell for about EUR
500.00 - and with the fall of the exchange rate it is now about 40% cheaper
to spend holidays in the US than it was in 2002. So be friendly to those
French .. they (and others) have the money to spend in the US-tourism
industry.

#m
--
The policy of the American government is to leave its citizens free,
neither restraining them nor aiding them in their pursuits.
Thomas Jefferson

[C Kingsbury]

"Martin Hotze" > wrote in message
...
>
> who has less money? European consumers or the European airlines?

Consumers in general. I don't think the disparity is enormous and in any
case there's no question that a European with a decent job can enjoy a very
nice quality of life. Also, assuming that an American family and European
one would both budget say $2000 for a vacation, the European family will
likely be trying to spread it across a longer trip. In the US the typical
vacation trip is a week, occasionally ten days, once in a while two weeks.
And that's pretty much it for the year. When I worked for Bertelsmann my
German comrades would typically take three or four weeks off in the summer,
and two or three in the winter. Likewise when I was in Thailand a few years
back, most of the Europeans I ran into were there for at least a month. So
you guys need to stretch your money a little further even if salaries were
identical, which they are not.

> tickets from Europe to the US east cost (both ways) sell for about EUR
> 500.00 - and with the fall of the exchange rate it is now about 40%
cheaper
> to spend holidays in the US than it was in 2002. So be friendly to those
> French .. they (and others) have the money to spend in the US-tourism
> industry.

So long as they tip 15% in bars and restaraunts they will be quite welcome.

-cwk.

[Chris]

"C Kingsbury" > wrote in message
ink.net...
>
> "Martin Hotze" > wrote in message
> ...
>>
>> who has less money? European consumers or the European airlines?
>
> Consumers in general. I don't think the disparity is enormous and in any
> case there's no question that a European with a decent job can enjoy a
> very
> nice quality of life. Also, assuming that an American family and European
> one would both budget say $2000 for a vacation, the European family will
> likely be trying to spread it across a longer trip. In the US the typical
> vacation trip is a week, occasionally ten days, once in a while two weeks.
> And that's pretty much it for the year. When I worked for Bertelsmann my
> German comrades would typically take three or four weeks off in the
> summer,
> and two or three in the winter. Likewise when I was in Thailand a few
> years
> back, most of the Europeans I ran into were there for at least a month. So
> you guys need to stretch your money a little further even if salaries were
> identical, which they are not.
>
>> tickets from Europe to the US east cost (both ways) sell for about EUR
>> 500.00 - and with the fall of the exchange rate it is now about 40%
> cheaper
>> to spend holidays in the US than it was in 2002. So be friendly to those
>> French .. they (and others) have the money to spend in the US-tourism
>> industry.
>
> So long as they tip 15% in bars and restaraunts they will be quite
> welcome.
>
providing those working in the bars and restaurants earn it.

[Martin Hotze]

On Sat, 27 Nov 2004 16:01:03 -0000, Chris wrote:

>>> So be friendly to those
>>> French .. they (and others) have the money to spend in the US-tourism
>>> industry.
>>
>> So long as they tip 15% in bars and restaraunts they will be quite
>> welcome.
>>
>providing those working in the bars and restaurants earn it.

they have to travel there (to the US) in the first place.

#m
--
The policy of the American government is to leave its citizens free,
neither restraining them nor aiding them in their pursuits.
Thomas Jefferson

[Martin Hotze]

On Sat, 27 Nov 2004 15:54:49 GMT, C Kingsbury wrote:

>> who has less money? European consumers or the European airlines?
>
>Consumers in general. I don't think the disparity is enormous and in any
>case there's no question that a European with a decent job can enjoy a very
>nice quality of life.

ok

> Also, assuming that an American family and European
>one would both budget say $2000 for a vacation, the European family will
>likely be trying to spread it across a longer trip.

probably, yes.

> In the US the typical
>vacation trip is a week, occasionally ten days, once in a while two weeks.

same here.

>And that's pretty much it for the year.

maybe, depending on budget and houshold income, there is an additional week
for holidays. For example 10 days to 2 weeks in summer and an additional
week in winter. Or maybe a longer weekend, filled with a holiday and an
additional day off.

> When I worked for Bertelsmann my
>German comrades would typically take three or four weeks off in the summer,
>and two or three in the winter.

this would then be not paid in full. about 4 to 5 weeks is typical. and as
you said: they take some weeks off, but this does not mean that they
drive/fly away.

>Likewise when I was in Thailand a few years
>back, most of the Europeans I ran into were there for at least a month.

most likely very many retired people. My last holiday was in 2002 - but
this is a different story.

> So
>you guys need to stretch your money a little further even if salaries were
>identical, which they are not.

they aren't, for sure. but you need the plus for paying for your own
insurance etc.; and here we typically only need one job, whereas in the US
many have to work 2 or 3 jobs (which is _VERY_ unusual for Europe).

>> tickets from Europe to the US east cost (both ways) sell for about EUR
>> 500.00 - and with the fall of the exchange rate it is now about 40%
>cheaper
>> to spend holidays in the US than it was in 2002. So be friendly to those
>> French .. they (and others) have the money to spend in the US-tourism
>> industry.
>
>So long as they tip 15% in bars and restaraunts they will be quite welcome.

ah well, as always it comes down to money :-)
hm, you have to bring them to the US in the first place. Politics is doing
its best to keep tourists away. Many tourists only seek "sun, beach, other
culture, other people" and not the USA or any other specific country. So
they can virtually go anyplace else (Cuba, the Dominican Republic or many
countries bordering the Mediterranean Sea [Egypt, Turkey, Greece, ...] are
very popular).

>-cwk.

#m
--
The policy of the American government is to leave its citizens free,
neither restraining them nor aiding them in their pursuits.
Thomas Jefferson

[Jay Honeck]

> In the Airline biz they have Revenue Per Seat Mile.
> Some pay First Class, some are coach, a few got a package, some
purchased
> through a consolidator, and some bought the ticket on Priceline. The
bean
> counters in Chicago, Minneapolis, Dallas, and Atlanta crunch the
numbers
> and voila!

Right, but -- correct me if I'm wrong -- aren't the airlines pretty
much universally losing money?

Sounds like their method is flawed, to me.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[C Kingsbury]

"Chris" > wrote in message
...
>
> "C Kingsbury" > wrote in message
> ink.net...
>
> > So long as they tip 15% in bars and restaraunts they will be quite
> > welcome.
> >
> providing those working in the bars and restaurants earn it.
>

When I worked for a European company I frequently went out for meals with
senior managers visitng from Germany, the UK, etc. We'd spend $385 on dinner
at a steakhouse where you had a waiter, a busboy, and a sommelier serving
the table and they'd sign the credit card slip for $400. At a Chili's-type
place the waitress would be lucky if she got more than change for a dollar.
After the second or third time I gave up trying to explain "American
customs" to them, after all, they were my bosses. The last time we went to
the Palm I thought the waiters were going to jump us on our way out they
were so mad. It was a sign of things to come as the US office failed in
large part because these guys refused to understand that the American market
did not function the same as the European one and they needed a different
strategy.

FWIW I have seen my share of Americans making fools of themselves in other
cultures in both personal and business settings. Perhaps the most humorous
example being a visit to the bullfights in Barcelona. There were four or
five guys in front of us, very obviously American, and every time the
matador would land a killing shot with his sword, they would jump up and
yell, "Touchdown!"

-cwk.

[Martin Hotze]

On Sun, 28 Nov 2004 18:14:30 GMT, C Kingsbury wrote:

>When I worked for a European company I frequently went out for meals with
>senior managers visitng from Germany, the UK, etc. We'd spend $385 on dinner
>at a steakhouse where you had a waiter, a busboy, and a sommelier serving
>the table and they'd sign the credit card slip for $400. At a Chili's-type

*hehe*
yep, in Europe most likely you don't calculate a percentage as a tip but
more likely you round up the total. And I don't like the idea of *expected*
tipping - even as part of their income. Let the boss pay their wages (even
if this would mean to raise the prices on the menue). I generally only tip
if the service was more than average (friendly and prompt service is part
of the job and is expected).

most likely (my personal experience) the staff at any establishment I've
been so far in the US mostly doesn't deserve any tip at all. They (mostly)
have no knowledge of their job and work this job only besides their college
or whatever. All they can say is "Haa-aiiiiiiii, my name is Janine, and I
am you waitress for tonight - our special for today is ..." and then she
serves the plates with her fingers right beside the food. Disgusting.
[yeah, generalised; there sure are well trained waiters out there in the
US]

>place the waitress would be lucky if she got more than change for a dollar.
>After the second or third time I gave up trying to explain "American
>customs" to them, after all, they were my bosses. The last time we went to
>the Palm I thought the waiters were going to jump us on our way out they
>were so mad. It was a sign of things to come as the US office failed in
>large part because these guys refused to understand that the American market
>did not function the same as the European one and they needed a different
>strategy.

You're right, the American market follows different rules than the European
market (different values, resulting in different ways for marketing a
placing a product in the market, ...).

#m

--
The policy of the American government is to leave its citizens free,
neither restraining them nor aiding them in their pursuits.
Thomas Jefferson

[Chris]

"Martin Hotze" > wrote in message
...
> On Sun, 28 Nov 2004 18:14:30 GMT, C Kingsbury wrote:
>
>>When I worked for a European company I frequently went out for meals with
>>senior managers visitng from Germany, the UK, etc. We'd spend $385 on
>>dinner
>>at a steakhouse where you had a waiter, a busboy, and a sommelier serving
>>the table and they'd sign the credit card slip for $400. At a Chili's-type
>
> *hehe*
> yep, in Europe most likely you don't calculate a percentage as a tip but
> more likely you round up the total. And I don't like the idea of
> *expected*
> tipping - even as part of their income. Let the boss pay their wages (even
> if this would mean to raise the prices on the menue). I generally only tip
> if the service was more than average (friendly and prompt service is part
> of the job and is expected).
>

I would prefer to see the size of portions decrease 'cause I cannot eat it
all and instead of reducing the prices pay a decent wage. I just hate to see
good food going to waste and as for taking it home for the dog - well, I
have no dog besides which its expensive dog food.

[Peter Duniho]

"Chris" > wrote in message
...
> I would prefer to see the size of portions decrease 'cause I cannot eat it
> all and instead of reducing the prices pay a decent wage. I just hate to
> see > good food going to waste and as for taking it home for the dog -
> well, I have no dog besides which its expensive dog food.

Don't they have refrigerators in the UK?

Here in the US we do. And when a restaurant serves me twice as much food as
I can eat (which they often do), I simply take the remaining portion home
and have it for a later meal. Storing it in the refrigerator until that
time, of course.

As far as the relationship between portion sizes and prices go, there's a
reason the portions are so large in the first place. It's because portion
sizes don't have all that much to do with prices. Labor, rent, equipment
costs, etc. are a much bigger chunk of what winds up on your bill. Making
portions smaller wouldn't reduce prices by much at all.

Pete

[Jay Honeck]

> Here in the US we do. And when a restaurant serves me twice as much food
> as I can eat (which they often do), I simply take the remaining portion
> home and have it for a later meal. Storing it in the refrigerator until
> that time, of course.

Mary and I usually split one entree, and order an appetizer or soup.

I'm sure the wait staff hates it, but I just can't eat the portions that
most restaurants serve -- and if I can, I shouldn't!
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Chris]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
news:y2tqd.103738$V41.51654@attbi_s52...
>> Here in the US we do. And when a restaurant serves me twice as much food
>> as I can eat (which they often do), I simply take the remaining portion
>> home and have it for a later meal. Storing it in the refrigerator until
>> that time, of course.
>
> Mary and I usually split one entree, and order an appetizer or soup.
>
> I'm sure the wait staff hates it, but I just can't eat the portions that
> most restaurants serve -- and if I can, I shouldn't!

That's not the point though.

[Colin W Kingsbury]

"Martin Hotze" > wrote in message
...
> On Sun, 28 Nov 2004 18:14:30 GMT, C Kingsbury wrote:
>
> *hehe*
> yep, in Europe most likely you don't calculate a percentage as a tip but
> more likely you round up the total. And I don't like the idea of
*expected*
> tipping - even as part of their income. Let the boss pay their wages (even
> if this would mean to raise the prices on the menue). I generally only tip
> if the service was more than average (friendly and prompt service is part
> of the job and is expected).

Just keep in mind that your average waitress is paid somewhere around
$3/hour by the restaraunt. Thus if you don't tip, the person basically
doesn't get paid. You may find the "system" objectionable but don't take it
out on the person at the bottom of the food chain. When in Rome...

FWIW, the "system" does make some sense. First, it clearly connects pay to
volume of work. On a busy night you work harder and get paid more. This is
fairer to the staff and simpler for management. Second, it connects pay to
quality very directly. The waitress is essentially paid by the customer
after the service has been delivered, allowing you to vote with your wallet.

I am one of those who feels tipping is getting a little out of hand- more
and more people expect it and the percentage people think they're entitled
to keeps going up. But, I have no doubt that the alternative would lead to
much worse service.

-cwk.

[Colin W Kingsbury]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> > In the Airline biz they have Revenue Per Seat Mile.
>
> Right, but -- correct me if I'm wrong -- aren't the airlines pretty
> much universally losing money?
>
> Sounds like their method is flawed, to me.

There's a couple layers of issues here.

First, the strategy of "yield management" is designed to try and maximize
the revenue per seat-mile. In and of itself this makes perfect sense. The
apparent oddities this leads to, like the Saturday-night stay rule, all make
perfect sense towards making each person pay as much as possible for their
seat. This, too, is logical: a vacationer heading to Miami does not value a
seat nearly as much as a businessman headed to an important meeting. This
benefits the vacationer because it allows for the availability of very cheap
seats, and benefits the businessman because it increases the odds he will be
able to get a seat at the last minute that he desperately needs.

Second is the issue of cost structure. No matter how you look at it, running
an airline is a hellish business. It's as capital-intensive as real estate,
only your main assets are always depreciating. Operating costs are
astounding, and not easily adjusted. Pilots, mechanics, FAs, gate leases,
etc. all add up very quickly, and it takes years to adjust the formula. So
newcomers will always have the advantage because they built their business
models around last year's conditions, and not the last decade's. But come
ten years from now those newcomers could be in just as bad shape.

Third, you have the destabilizing role of the low-cost carriers. The
critical thing that these guys have done is to throw out the yield
maximization strategy in favor of a simplified flat pricing model. And
because their built-in costs are much lower, they can undercut the majors'
prices at every step of the game. The only way for the majors to compete is
to reduce costs, and as we already explained, this takes years to
accomplish, years during which incredible sums of money fly out the door.
Their management has been at turns arrogant, ignorant, and incompetent, but
then this can be said of nearly every established company in every industry
at one time or another. Today's darlings will get their turn at the rack
sooner or later.

The problem that we have is that traditionally the low-cost carriers lived
by cherry-picking routes and thus could not be looked to to provide a truly
national network. This is a "must-have" in the same sense that the
Interstate highway system is a fundamental component of our economy and way
of life. Interestingly for us, the future is in some ways headed in our
direction. Regional jets are replacing not only the Saab 340s and Dash 8s,
but MD-80s and DC-9s as well. Many of the new airlines have all-RJ fleets
from the ground up. I suspect the smaller-is-better trend will continue as
far as technology and passenger comfort allows, with on-demand taxi services
using VLJs possibly displacing Part 121 carriers flying into less-dense
areas. Who knows.

-cwk.

[Newps]

Colin W Kingsbury wrote:


>
> Second is the issue of cost structure. No matter how you look at it, running
> an airline is a hellish business. It's as capital-intensive as real estate,
> only your main assets are always depreciating. Operating costs are
> astounding, and not easily adjusted. Pilots, mechanics, FAs, gate leases,
> etc. all add up very quickly, and it takes years to adjust the formula. So
> newcomers will always have the advantage because they built their business
> models around last year's conditions, and not the last decade's. But come
> ten years from now those newcomers could be in just as bad shape.

Look at Southwest. They are doing it right. All the people really want
is a seat at the cheapest possible rate. We don't need your fancy clubs
and we certainly don't care about boarding the plane 5 minutes before
everybody else. Just get to my destination when you say you will and be
friendly about it.

Interestingly for us, the future is in some ways headed in our
> direction. Regional jets are replacing not only the Saab 340s and Dash 8s,
> but MD-80s and DC-9s as well. Many of the new airlines have all-RJ fleets
> from the ground up.


That's because an airline pilot just isn't worth $175K per year.
Period. Get a jumpseat ride in an RJ and you'll see a 7 year can fly
one. When the computer voice says 10 feet pull the power and the nose
up and you land. There's nothing to do anymore. Which is good, that's
what makes it safe.

[Peter Duniho]

"Colin W Kingsbury" > wrote in message
k.net...
> [...]
> FWIW, the "system" does make some sense. First, it clearly connects pay to
> volume of work. On a busy night you work harder and get paid more. This is
> fairer to the staff and simpler for management.

True. However, management could simply either pay waitstaff on commission,
or even easier for management, just prorate their pay based on gross
receipts.

> Second, it connects pay to
> quality very directly. The waitress is essentially paid by the customer
> after the service has been delivered, allowing you to vote with your
> wallet.

That's the theory. However, in reality you have a wide variety of customers
with a wide variety of tipping styles. You never know which guy you've
worked your ass off for is going to stiff you, and you never know which fat
cat is going to drop a load of cash even though you let his water glass sit
empty for three minutes.

Now whether waitstaff generally are in favor of this little game of
roulette, I don't know. A lot of waiters I know get paid handsomely, mostly
through tips, and they like their jobs. But as a customer, I have to say
that I find tipping to be an archaic, inefficient custom.

> I am one of those who feels tipping is getting a little out of hand- more
> and more people expect it and the percentage people think they're entitled
> to keeps going up. But, I have no doubt that the alternative would lead to
> much worse service.

I have a HUGE doubt that the alternative would lead to much worse service.
A food service business will only do as well as their waitstaff performs.
We may tip low for poor service, but more importantly, we just don't go
back.

A local Italian restaurant was our favorite for several years, but there was
only one good waiter there. We always made sure we sat in his section when
we went there, and we got the five-star treatment every visit. We tipped
him well. But, when he had a falling out with the management and went to
work somewhere else, we only gave the restaurant a couple more tries before
deciding that there was no hope of ensuring that we got good service there.

Our response would have been exactly the same had service charges been
included in the bill. With or without tipping, service quality depends a
LOT more on repeat business and management's ability to train and keep
competent waitstaff around.

And as far as tipping "getting a little out of hand", don't even get me
started on the recent (last 5-10 years) tradition of people in what are
really production jobs (behind-the-counter positions, primarily) expecting
tips too. It's one thing if you're really a waiter who just happens to work
behind a lunch counter instead of cruising the tables. But when you're just
serving ice cream to a steady queue of people who walk right up to you?
Forget it.

Someone tell me again what all this flying stuff is doing in a food service
newsgroup? I seem to be a bit confused...

Pete

[Stefan]

Colin W Kingsbury wrote:

> Just keep in mind that your average waitress is paid somewhere around
> $3/hour by the restaraunt. Thus if you don't tip, the person basically
> doesn't get paid.

The better alternative would be to pay them fair wages in the first place.

> FWIW, the "system" does make some sense. First, it clearly connects pay to
> volume of work. On a busy night you work harder and get paid more. This is
> fairer to the staff and simpler for management.

Easier for the management? Certainly. But fairer to the staff? No!
Getting enough work is the management's job. The tipping system just
puts the risk on the employees.

Stefan

[Morgans]

"Stefan" > wrote
>
> The better alternative would be to pay them fair wages in the first place.
>
> Easier for the management? Certainly. But fairer to the staff? No!
> Getting enough work is the management's job. The tipping system just
> puts the risk on the employees.
>
> Stefan

True, but with the risk on the employer, he will pay wages in line with
little or no education.. Where else do you know of that a high school
graduate (or not) with good people skills, and a good memory (or not) can
bring home over 200 bucks in 6 or 7 hours?

Waiting in a good establishment, is the answer. Some nights, 200 bucks will
not be brought home, but some nights a lot more. Makes taking the risk more
worthwhile, don't you think?\

After seeing the kind of service you get in some European restaurants, I
think tipping makes a big difference in the quality of the service.
--
Jim in NC


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[Peter Duniho]

"Morgans" > wrote in message
...
> True, but with the risk on the employer, he will pay wages in line with
> little or no education.

Define "education". Those who make a "high income" from waiting have
extensive experience in the business. They have every bit as much
"education", in their field of work, as a college graduate. And there are
very few people in the table waiting industry who actually make anything
anyone would call a "high income".

> Where else do you know of that a high school
> graduate (or not) with good people skills, and a good memory (or not) can
> bring home over 200 bucks in 6 or 7 hours?

All sorts of industries, including the computer industry. No, wait...I take
that back. You don't need good people skills in the computer industry.

> Waiting in a good establishment, is the answer.

Without experience, no one is going to get a job at a "good establishment".
With or without a college degree. Starting wages for a waiter suck.

> Some nights, 200 bucks will
> not be brought home, but some nights a lot more. Makes taking the risk
> more
> worthwhile, don't you think?\

Plenty of people make that much money (and lots lots more) without nearly
the risk. More to the point, the quantity of money that comes in isn't a
direct result of the risk (as it might be in gambling large sums of money),
so it makes no sense to justify the risk simply based on the chance of large
sums of money.

> After seeing the kind of service you get in some European restaurants, I
> think tipping makes a big difference in the quality of the service.

After seeing the kind of service I get in some American restaurants, I think
tipping is a useless custom that makes no difference in the quality of the
service.

If tipping is such a great idea, why is it that I constantly run into lousy
service in restaurants, right here in America? The answer is that quality
of service has WAY more to do with how the restaurant is managed than it
does with the custom of tipping.

Pete

[Colin W Kingsbury]

"Newps" > wrote in message
...
>
> Look at Southwest. They are doing it right.
>

I agree, but the problem is that Southwest cannot serve the whole country
and sustain its business model. They exist by operating direct service on a
very narrow range of routes. This is why you do not see SWA flying in and
out of BOS, LGA, or any number of other extremely high-volume airports.

> All the people really want
> is a seat at the cheapest possible rate. We don't need your fancy clubs
> and we certainly don't care about boarding the plane 5 minutes before
> everybody else.

Well, I used to fly upwards of 100,000 miles a year, rarely going two weeks
without at least one trip. When you do that you get to spend a lot of time
waiting for missed connections and weather delays, and the clubs really do
help. It's one thing to put up with the cattle call a few times a year but
every week? You'd go mad.

Likewise, the early boarding offers one key benefit: guaranteed overhead
luggage bin space. This meant (a) I could save time by carrying all my
luggage and (b) still be comfortable by not having to put a bag under the
seat. Like I said, when you do it constantly, it really adds up.

With times being tough the past few years, companies were free to force
their traveling employees to eat a lot of s--t and fly only the cheapest
available fares. As conditions improve this will change. Good employees will
demand better accomodations or they will quit. This is why I think Airtran
has been very smart to offer Business Class seating at reasonable prices. I
used to run a team of consultants and was always willing to spend a little
more to make the trip easier on them. As for the client, I would explain
that they were paying $1800 a day for the consultant's time, so they ought
to be willing to spend a few hundred more to make sure that nice fellow
showed up refreshed and ready to work, not chewed up and spit out.

IMHO we need to weed the 6 majors (UA, US, AA, DL, NW, CO) down to three or
four, probably by allowing some of the mergers that would have been
unthinkable previously. UA, US, and DL are all sick men and I expect them to
look nothing like they do today within a few years. I do not expect US to
survive at all and do not understand how UA has managed to avoid going back
into bankruptcy.

-cwk.

[Michael]

"Colin W Kingsbury" > wrote
> I agree, but the problem is that Southwest cannot serve the whole country
> and sustain its business model.

Then maybe the portions of the country that can't be served by that
busiess model have to pay a lot more. Or maybe the hub-and-spoke
model is outdated. In fact, maybe it was never a good model in the
first place, and was only used because certain costs (airport/highway
expansion, air traffic control) could be externalized. Maybe the
future is in large numbers of smaller airplanes (737 and down) flying
point-to-point routes.

> Like I said, when you do it constantly, it really adds up.

It sure does. I used to travel on business regularly, and I hated
Southwest. Just realize that the business traveller of old is an
endangered species, which is making the old style airlines hurt.

> With times being tough the past few years, companies were free to force
> their traveling employees to eat a lot of s--t and fly only the cheapest
> available fares.

Yup.

> As conditions improve this will change. Good employees will
> demand better accomodations or they will quit.

You're kidding yourself. This is the economy we can look forward to
for years. Think jobless recovery.

> This is why I think Airtran
> has been very smart to offer Business Class seating at reasonable prices.

I doubt it. I think the Southwest model is the future - one class.
One might even say no class.

> IMHO we need to weed the 6 majors (UA, US, AA, DL, NW, CO) down to three or
> four

Which will happen, I can assure you.

> probably by allowing some of the mergers that would have been
> unthinkable previously.

And what good will that do? The fundamental problem isn't too many
players - it's too much capacity. The business traveler isn't coming
back. He's doing his job by remote control, usually via phone and
internet - and usually from Bangalore.

Michael

[Philip Sondericker]

in article , Peter Duniho at
wrote on 11/29/04 2:35 PM:

> If tipping is such a great idea, why is it that I constantly run into lousy
> service in restaurants, right here in America?

lol. Uh, Peter, if your real-life persona is in any way similar to the one
you display in this forum, I would worry less about the lousy service you're
getting and start worrying more about what those no doubt beleaguered
waitresses and waiters are putting in your food.

[Peter Duniho]

"Philip Sondericker" > wrote in message
...
> lol. Uh, Peter, if your real-life persona is in any way similar to the one
> you display in this forum, I would worry less about the lousy service
> you're
> getting and start worrying more about what those no doubt beleaguered
> waitresses and waiters are putting in your food.

You're obviously too obtuse to have picked up on this, but I'm generally
short-tempered only with people that start out being stupid or acting like a
jerk. That's true here, as well as in "real life".

I can be quite patient and friendly with people who act in a manner becoming
someone deserving of such respect. While I've had plenty of instances of
poor service in a restaurant, I've yet to run into a waiter SO dumb as to
actually act like a jerk to a customer, and I've had no trouble at all being
perfectly polite and gracious to all the waitstaff I've run into over the
years.

Like I said, the concepts I describe in this post may well be over your
head. Don't feel too bad if you just don't get it. I'm not expecting you
to.

Pete

[Philip Sondericker]

in article , Peter Duniho at
wrote on 11/30/04 8:24 PM:

> "Philip Sondericker" > wrote in message
> ...
>> lol. Uh, Peter, if your real-life persona is in any way similar to the one
>> you display in this forum, I would worry less about the lousy service
>> you're
>> getting and start worrying more about what those no doubt beleaguered
>> waitresses and waiters are putting in your food.
>
> You're obviously too obtuse to have picked up on this, but I'm generally
> short-tempered only with people that start out being stupid or acting like a
> jerk. That's true here, as well as in "real life".
>
> I can be quite patient and friendly with people who act in a manner becoming
> someone deserving of such respect. While I've had plenty of instances of
> poor service in a restaurant, I've yet to run into a waiter SO dumb as to
> actually act like a jerk to a customer, and I've had no trouble at all being
> perfectly polite and gracious to all the waitstaff I've run into over the
> years.
>
> Like I said, the concepts I describe in this post may well be over your
> head. Don't feel too bad if you just don't get it. I'm not expecting you
> to.
>
> Pete

Aw Pete, I was just having a little fun with you.

By the way, I spit in your soup.